bishop Bishop is the great class ?

[------]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Bishop's the best class for a male white mage (so basically just Linhardt). But anyone with tits is going to want to upgrade to Gremory eventually. Chances are the character's magic will be strong enough for the extra healing from Healind+ won't make a difference.

If you're using them purely for healing though, you're likely only training them in Faith and Authority, not Reason. There's hardly enough difference between Bishop and what Gremory offers to justify training them all the way to B+/A in a skill they're not even gonna use. White Magic ×2 is the only skill that matters on either class, and 1 extra Mov isn't all that important with Physic's long reach (and March Ring still exists if you need it). Unless you want your healer fighting stuff for whatever reason, why not just keep them in Bishop?

6 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's also a good waypoint class for Lysithea, Marianne, Flayn, and Manuela, too (all of whom would rather end in Gremory - easier said than done for Manuela).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Flayn and Manuela do better on the Pegasus/Falcon Knight path? Their spell lists are both pretty lacking with the excpetion of Flayn's Rescue, Flayn has a Lance boon and can learn Frozen Lance, and Manuela's got a Flying boon with Ingrid-style growths. Hopping on a pegasus after mastering Mage might actually be the better choice for these two, especially when you throw Manuela's Reason bane into the mix.

[Jotari]

19 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

If you're using them purely for healing though, you're likely only training them in Faith and Authority, not Reason. There's hardly enough difference between Bishop and what Gremory offers to justify training them all the way to B+/A in a skill they're not even gonna use. White Magic ×2 is the only skill that matters on either class, and 1 extra Mov isn't all that important with Physic's long reach (and March Ring still exists if you need it). Unless you want your healer fighting stuff for whatever reason, why not just keep them in Bishop?

Gremory only requires Faith and Reason. It's not troublesome at all to train in both if you're not going for anything else other than authority (which hyou don't even have to go that high in if you're going to put your more combat oriented battalions on combat oriented units and leave  support units to have support battalions). Gremories also have an extra point of movement which means an extra range with physic. The march ring is better off with someone else.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

11 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Flayn and Manuela do better on the Pegasus/Falcon Knight path? Their spell lists are both pretty lacking with the excpetion of Flayn's Rescue, Flayn has a Lance boon and can learn Frozen Lance, and Manuela's got a Flying boon with Ingrid-style growths. Hopping on a pegasus after mastering Mage might actually be the better choice for these two, especially when you throw Manuela's Reason bane into the mix.

I didn't say Bishop -> Gremory was their best course, merely that it was a good one.

I've tried Pegasus Knight Flayn, and honestly, it was an exercise in suffering. She gets Frozen Lance, yes, but only at A-Lances. Before that point, her only realistic option for dealing damage is the Levin Sword. Which requires scarce Arcane Crystals to repair. Manuela, at least, starts with Hexblade, but her Lance neutrality will make getting to Falcon Knight a challenge. ...Which, admittedly, also applies to her Reason bane for Gremory.

Anyway, I think there's stuff to look forward to in either one's spell lists. Flayn learns Wind (chronically underrated - it's low-Wt, high-Use, and high-Hit) and Excalibur (anti-Flier) on the Reason side, plus Rescue and Fortify in terms of Faith. Meanwhile, Manuela gets Warp at A-Faith and Bolting at A-Reason (if she can make the uphill climb), not to mention interesting tech in Ward and Silence. They're not the best spell lists, but they bring some good stuff to the table.

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Gremory only requires Faith and Reason. It's not troublesome at all to train in both if you're not going for anything else other than authority (which hyou don't even have to go that high in if you're going to put your more combat oriented battalions on combat oriented units and leave  support units to have support battalions). Gremories also have an extra point of movement which means an extra range with physic. The march ring is better off with someone else.

Admittedly, some support gambits require a high Authority rank. Retribution, for instance, is only on A-level battalions, outside of Blue Lions routes. And yeah, Gremory will grant a higher range to Physic (and Warp, and Rescue). But in the case of Physic (and Fortify), it's a trade-off, as Bishop's Physic heals more.

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4 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I didn't say Bishop -> Gremory was their best course, merely that it was a good one.

I've tried Pegasus Knight Flayn, and honestly, it was an exercise in suffering. She gets Frozen Lance, yes, but only at A-Lances. Before that point, her only realistic option for dealing damage is the Levin Sword. Which requires scarce Arcane Crystals to repair. Manuela, at least, starts with Hexblade, but her Lance neutrality will make getting to Falcon Knight a challenge. ...Which, admittedly, also applies to her Reason bane for Gremory.

Anyway, I think there's stuff to look forward to in either one's spell lists. Flayn learns Wind (chronically underrated - it's low-Wt, high-Use, and high-Hit) and Excalibur (anti-Flier) on the Reason side, plus Rescue and Fortify in terms of Faith. Meanwhile, Manuela gets Warp at A-Faith and Bolting at A-Reason (if she can make the uphill climb), not to mention interesting tech in Ward and Silence. They're not the best spell lists, but they bring some good stuff to the table.

Ah, my mistake, I misunderstood what you were saying before. I thought you meant Gremory was their best class, not just better than Bishop. Sorry for the confusion there.

You bring up some really interesting points about their spell lists though. I'd never considered running Flayn as an offensive mage before, her Reason list always turned me away from the idea. Now that you mention some of the practical uses of Wind and Excalibur (two spells I often tend to overlook in favor of Thoron and the like) I might be tempted to try building her as a Dark Flier on my next Blue Lions run. Full magic acces on top of Frozen Lance might just open up a few extra doors for her on my team.

Manuela though... yeah she's got Warp, but with that Mag growth of hers she's always gonna lose out in the range department to Lyssie and Linhardt (With the dlc, Hapi as well). And Bolting's gonna come pretty late for her too thanks to her bane and late recruit time. Even with Lance neutrality, her utility as a Hexblade/Levin Sword Falcon Knight will end up coming a lot sooner by comparison. Manuela's a pretty middling unit either way though, so it's really kind of a "pick your poison" type situation anyway.

47 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The march ring is better off with someone else.

Just out of curiosity, who?

It's no good on a combat unit since they always prefer something that boosts their combat efficiency (Evasion/Critical Ring, Thyrsus, etc.). That only really leaves your healer or your dancer.

[Armchair General]

42 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

. I'd never considered running Flayn as an offensive mage before

Works fine for me.

 

42 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

It's no good on a combat unit since they always prefer something that boosts their combat efficiency

I know that I had it on my team. Can't remember that if it's for one of my mages or a Fortress Knight.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

45 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

, my mistake, I misunderstood what you were saying before. I thought you meant Gremory was their best class, not just better than Bishop. Sorry for the confusion there.

You bring up some really interesting points about their spell lists though. I'd never considered running Flayn as an offensive mage before, her Reason list always turned me away from the idea. Now that you mention some of the practical uses of Wind and Excalibur (two spells I often tend to overlook in favor of Thoron and the like) I might be tempted to try building her as a Dark Flier on my next Blue Lions run. Full magic acces on top of Frozen Lance might just open up a few extra doors for her on my team.

Manuela though... yeah she's got Warp, but with that Mag growth of hers she's always gonna lose out in the range department to Lyssie and Linhardt (With the dlc, Hapi as well). And Bolting's gonna come pretty late for her too thanks to her bane and late recruit time. Even with Lance neutrality, her utility as a Hexblade/Levin Sword Falcon Knight will end up coming a lot sooner by comparison. Manuela's a pretty middling unit either way though, so it's really kind of a "pick your poison" type situation anyway.

Just following up to confirm that, yes, I'm a massive hypocrite. I open up my latest complete playthrough (Silver Snow, Maddening, NG+), and who should meet my eyes but Dark Flier Flayn and Falcon Knight Manuela? So they're each viable builds. That said, I may have bought back ranks, so they're probably harder to pull off on NG.

As for the specifics, I agree that Thoron, and 1~3 range spells in general, are some of the best. Yet, an offensive mage can thrive without them (just ask Lysithea) - accuracy, effective damage, and sheer spell count can go a long way. As for Manuela, I'm recalling how I had her tied for worst unit in the game in the community tier list. She can do some interesting stuff, but she's always eclipsed by someone else, in any conceivable role.

54 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Just out of curiosity, who?

It's no good on a combat unit since they always prefer something that boosts their combat efficiency (Evasion/Critical Ring, Thyrsus, etc.). That only really leaves your healer or your dancer.

Keep in mind - a combat unit can equip the March Ring, move, unequip it in favor of an offensive aid, and launch their attack. Since un/equipping isn't an end-space action (whereas Trading is), the March Ring is widely exploitable. I would say that I prefer it (and/or the Fetters of Dromi) on a Dancer, but more move is good for... literally anyone.

[Dark Holy Elf]

5 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

If you're using them purely for healing though, you're likely only training them in Faith and Authority, not Reason. There's hardly enough difference between Bishop and what Gremory offers to justify training them all the way to B+/A in a skill they're not even gonna use. White Magic ×2 is the only skill that matters on either class, and 1 extra Mov isn't all that important with Physic's long reach (and March Ring still exists if you need it). Unless you want your healer fighting stuff for whatever reason, why not just keep them in Bishop?

This might be just personal playstyle, but I like even my healers to be able to attack. Sometimes there are turns when nobody needs healing, and I like my "healer" to be useful then! So yeah, I'm definitely gonna be training Reason on 'em anyway. What else are you going to train? There's no reason to train Faith past [the unit's last relevant faith spell], which is never later than A, and if they're never running offence I see no reason to train Authority past B either (which gets you every battalion with Stride, Blessing, Sacred Shield, and Impregnable Wall, the most likely utility gambits for a healer).

And it must be emphasized you don't need to train Reason much to get to Gremory. A mere C+ by Level 30 gets you to a ~50% certification rate. So even if you see no other benefit to training Reason, it's not a major ask.

5 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Flayn and Manuela do better on the Pegasus/Falcon Knight path? Their spell lists are both pretty lacking with the excpetion of Flayn's Rescue, Flayn has a Lance boon and can learn Frozen Lance, and Manuela's got a Flying boon with Ingrid-style growths. Hopping on a pegasus after mastering Mage might actually be the better choice for these two, especially when you throw Manuela's Reason bane into the mix.

With Manuela, yeah maybe. I can never decide what her best class is. Flayn, though? The only reason to use her as anything besides a Byleth adjutant IMO is Rescue and Fortify. Her Frozen Lance isn't gained until A, so a variety of other units (Lysithea, Dorothea, Marianne, Constance, Annette, even Lorenz) can do the magical combat art build better than her, due to getting the relevant skill much earlier (and these skills peak in relative power midgame, so this certainly matters).

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I didn't say Bishop -> Gremory was their best course, merely that it was a good one.

I've tried Pegasus Knight Flayn, and honestly, it was an exercise in suffering. She gets Frozen Lance, yes, but only at A-Lances. Before that point, her only realistic option for dealing damage is the Levin Sword. Which requires scarce Arcane Crystals to repair. Manuela, at least, starts with Hexblade, but her Lance neutrality will make getting to Falcon Knight a challenge. ...Which, admittedly, also applies to her Reason bane for Gremory.

Anyway, I think there's stuff to look forward to in either one's spell lists. Flayn learns Wind (chronically underrated - it's low-Wt, high-Use, and high-Hit) and Excalibur (anti-Flier) on the Reason side, plus Rescue and Fortify in terms of Faith. Meanwhile, Manuela gets Warp at A-Faith and Bolting at A-Reason (if she can make the uphill climb), not to mention interesting tech in Ward and Silence. They're not the best spell lists, but they bring some good stuff to the table.

Admittedly, some support gambits require a high Authority rank. Retribution, for instance, is only on A-level battalions, outside of Blue Lions routes. And yeah, Gremory will grant a higher range to Physic (and Warp, and Rescue). But in the case of Physic (and Fortify), it's a trade-off, as Bishop's Physic heals more.

Bishops heal a bit more due to their skill, but by the time you reach Gremory as a promotion option, the unit's stats are probably going to be high enough anyway where it won't make that much of a difference. Maybe Gremory!Physic won't be able to heal from 10%->100%, but it'll be enough to get them to a point where they'll be able to endure as many attacks as if they were at 100% HP. I find the movement and higher stats for any occasional offensive situation just to be a better trade off.

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18 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Just following up to confirm that, yes, I'm a massive hypocrite. I open up my latest complete playthrough (Silver Snow, Maddening, NG+), and who should meet my eyes but Dark Flier Flayn and Falcon Knight Manuela? So they're each viable builds. That said, I may have bought back ranks, so they're probably harder to pull off on NG.

No worries lol

It was really more a question of my understanding than anything. On paper Falcon Knight seemed to be the obvious choice for them both, given their specific strengths and weaknesses, when really each class path has its own unique set of speed bumps that puts them on relatively equal footing. Or in Flayn's case, actually pushes the odds in favor of an offensive mage build.

18 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

As for the specifics, I agree that Thoron, and 1~3 range spells in general, are some of the best. Yet, an offensive mage can thrive without them (just ask Lysithea) - accuracy, effective damage, and sheer spell count can go a long way. As for Manuela, I'm recalling how I had her tied for worst unit in the game in the community tier list. She can do some interesting stuff, but she's always eclipsed by someone else, in any conceivable role.

There's always the option of giving Flayn (or any mage without a 1~3 range spell) Thyrsus or Caduceus as well, effectively giving them the same range as Thoron. 1~3 Wind and Excalibur, along with Frozen Lance and Rescue, could give Dark Flier Flayn some real versatility as a unit. Though nothing quite beats the range of a Thyrsus Dorothea, imo. 1~12 Meteors and 1~5 Thorons for days lol

Yeah, Manuela's pretty much all over the place when it comes to class options. She's not the absolute worst unit in 3H (that medal of dishonor goes to Anna), but she's easily one of the most underwhelming. She'll never be that good, sadly, no matter how you build her. But at least it's kind of a fun exercise to try and build her into something useful!

19 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Keep in mind - a combat unit can equip the March Ring, move, unequip it in favor of an offensive aid, and launch their attack. Since un/equipping isn't an end-space action (whereas Trading is), the March Ring is widely exploitable. I would say that I prefer it (and/or the Fetters of Dromi) on a Dancer, but more move is good for... literally anyone.

That's true I suppose, though micromanaging equips could possibly get a little cumbersome at times. I just imagine a lot of "Shit! I forgot to switch back to the Evasion Ring! Divine Pulse!" moments cropping up, which turns me off from the idea. Limiting each unit to one equip per mission is mainly my preference, since it just gives me one less thing to think about mid-battle.

16 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

This might be just personal playstyle, but I like even my healers to be able to attack. Sometimes there are turns when nobody needs healing, and I like my "healer" to be useful then! So yeah, I'm definitely gonna be training Reason on 'em anyway. What else are you going to train? There's no reason to train Faith past [the unit's last relevant faith spell], which is never later than A, and if they're never running offence I see no reason to train Authority past B either (which gets you every battalion with Stride, Blessing, Sacred Shield, and Impregnable Wall, the most likely utility gambits for a healer).

And it must be emphasized you don't need to train Reason much to get to Gremory. A mere C+ by Level 30 gets you to a ~50% certification rate. So even if you see no other benefit to training Reason, it's not a major ask.

Ngl, this is actually why I've recently taken to using Annette as my main healer - when nobody needs the heals, she comes forth with the rallies!

As for training healers in Reason, that mostly just boils down to playstyle differences I guess. I personally haven't run into many instances where I've thought "Damn, if only my healer could've attacked just now", and so I've just never felt compelled to build them that way. I'd rather invest in more support options for them like the dancer battalion (A Authority) or Movement +1 from A+ Riding.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

17 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

There's always the option of giving Flayn (or any mage without a 1~3 range spell) Thyrsus or Caduceus as well, effectively giving them the same range as Thoron. 1~3 Wind and Excalibur, along with Frozen Lance and Rescue, could give Dark Flier Flayn some real versatility as a unit. Though nothing quite beats the range of a Thyrsus Dorothea, imo. 1~12 Meteors and 1~5 Thorons for days lol

Gotta stan my man Hanneman for a second. He gets those same spells, and takes no damage from Thyrsus, owing to his Crest. Dorothea beats him in overall range potential, though, as she can go Valkyrie. In that class, and with Range +1 via S Reason, Dorothea has up to 7-range Thoron and 14-range Meteor.

23 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

That's true I suppose, though micromanaging equips could possibly get a little cumbersome at times. I just imagine a lot of "Shit! I forgot to switch back to the Evasion Ring! Divine Pulse!" moments cropping up, which turns me off from the idea. Limiting each unit to one equip per mission is mainly my preference, since it just gives me one less thing to think about mid-battle.

I usually do so as well, although I've played too much Genealogy to not love micro-management. That said, the March Ring exploit can be worth keeping in mind, should a unit seem just one space out of range of where they need to be. It could also probably come in handy on a solo run.

[Dark Holy Elf]

2 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Ngl, this is actually why I've recently taken to using Annette as my main healer - when nobody needs the heals, she comes forth with the rallies!

As for training healers in Reason, that mostly just boils down to playstyle differences I guess. I personally haven't run into many instances where I've thought "Damn, if only my healer could've attacked just now", and so I've just never felt compelled to build them that way. I'd rather invest in more support options for them like the dancer battalion (A Authority) or Movement +1 from A+ Riding.

Annette has major issues as a Bishop, though, since she's range 1 only (on both her healers and her rallies) and she'll struggle to reach her targets. She's also Faith neutral, making the class a big reach for her. The DLC classes are more favourable to her, granted, for all that her lack of Physic/Fortify means I don't regard her as much of a healer even then, more of an offensive magic unit with some utility.

Fair point about the Blue Lions Dancers battalion; I forgot that one. On three out of four routes, though, there's not much for a healer above B authority.

As for Move+1... you can get +1 move by switching from Bishop to Gremory! Much less of an investment, and doesn't take a skill slot. And if you're serious about training Move+1, you'd be going for one of the riding mage classes most likely, since they speed that considerably. Either way it seems highly unlikely to me that you'll be in a position where you'll want to stay in Bishop at endgame unless your name is Linhardt.

[------]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Annette has major issues as a Bishop, though, since she's range 1 only (on both her healers and her rallies) and she'll struggle to reach her targets. She's also Faith neutral, making the class a big reach for her. The DLC classes are more favourable to her, granted, for all that her lack of Physic/Fortify means I don't regard her as much of a healer even then, more of an offensive magic unit with some utility.

Faith neutrality isn't really that big a deal, though. At least outside of Maddening, I mean. If Dimitri can drag his ass through that axe bane to Wyvern, Annette shouldn't have any trouble getting to Bishop simply without a boon.

As for her lack of Physic, I didn't say she was my only healer. Heal and Recover with the Fetters of Dromi are enough for her to fill the healer/rallybot role, and then I've usually got a secondary with Physic if I need it. I figure if Annette's close enough to rally though, she's close enough to heal.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

As for Move+1... you can get +1 move by switching from Bishop to Gremory! Much less of an investment, and doesn't take a skill slot.

Dammit! You figured out my plan to use up that last skill slot :P

[Barren]

9 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Faith neutrality isn't really that big a deal, though. At least outside of Maddening, I mean. If Dimitri can drag his ass through that axe bane to Wyvern, Annette shouldn't have any trouble getting to Bishop simply without a boon.

As for her lack of Physic, I didn't say she was my only healer. Heal and Recover with the Fetters of Dromi are enough for her to fill the healer/rallybot role, and then I've usually got a secondary with Physic if I need it. I figure if Annette's close enough to rally though, she's close enough to heal.

That’s a cool Gremory set for Annette actually. You can give her something like Reason Prowess, Faith Prowess if you care about accuracy for Abraxas, Fiendish Blow, Black/White Magic range + 1 (white for Nosferatu and Abraxas, though Black is preferred), Fiendish Blow and whichever rally you want. With the Fetters of Dromi that you mentioned she can have 6 move with canto. That’s like being a Valkyrie without the issue of riding a horse.

[Dark Holy Elf]

In Annette's particular case Gremory over Bishop just seems like a no-brainer, if you're going that route. She's going to get to C+ and beyond Reason without you even trying, she doesn't need Heal+10 for Recover, and Gremory offers 1 more move almost for free so she can reach targets to heal/rally/Lightning Axe them.

11 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Faith neutrality isn't really that big a deal, though. At least outside of Maddening, I mean. If Dimitri can drag his ass through that axe bane to Wyvern, Annette shouldn't have any trouble getting to Bishop simply without a boon.

Slight tangent, but:

Dimitri has an easier time getting to wyvern than Annette does to Bishop for a couple reasons, which reflect more on the imbalance of the 3H class system than anything to do with the specific characters or skills involved:

-It takes 1320 exp to reach A, but only 680 skill exp to reach B. If we're willing to stop one rank short, then it takes 960 to reach B+, but only 460 to reach C+. Either way, you'll notice that the faith requirement for Bishop is about double the axe requirement for Wyvern. The exact amount a bane affects your skill growth is complicated, but it's at least a 1/6 reduction, and at most a 1/2 reduction. So you'll notice that even accounting for bane/neutral, Annette requires more faith training than Dimitri requires axe training, possibly by a fair bit.
-It's worse than that, though: advanced classes which require two prerequisites are more forgiving than those which require one, and you will still have a 40-50% certification rate even if you're TWO ranks short. So arguably the relevant comparison is now 960 faith vs. 300 axe. (And, to be fair, 300 flying, though this is easy to get, since you can train two skills passively in parallel, and of course weekly tasks exist.)

As you say, non-Maddening is more forgiving (4 extra exp for two skills per week adds up), so yeah, I'm sure you can get to Bishop reasonably. My experience on Maddening is that arriving at Advanced jobs with a single A rank requirement (Bishop, Warlock, Sniper, etc.) without a boon can definitely be a bit of a push, and often needs disproportionate training time if you want to be there promptly at Level 20.

[------]

2 hours ago, Barren said:

That’s a cool Gremory set for Annette actually. You can give her something like Reason Prowess, Faith Prowess if you care about accuracy for Abraxas, Fiendish Blow, Black/White Magic range + 1 (white for Nosferatu and Abraxas, though Black is preferred), Fiendish Blow and whichever rally you want. With the Fetters of Dromi that you mentioned she can have 6 move with canto. That’s like being a Valkyrie without the issue of riding a horse.

 

22 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

In Annette's particular case Gremory over Bishop just seems like a no-brainer, if you're going that route. She's going to get to C+ and beyond Reason without you even trying, she doesn't need Heal+10 for Recover, and Gremory offers 1 more move almost for free so she can reach targets to heal/rally/Lightning Axe them.

I must admit, you both make really good cases for Gremory's movement advantage on my Annette build. I'd still persoanlly consider the Bishop/Gremory difference to be fairly negligible on anyone with Physic. However, on a single range healer like Annette that extra point of movement could really improve her overall versatility as a support. Especially since giving her the Fetters and Mov +1 would bump it up to a total 3 Mov improvement over Bishop. I doubt that I'd invest at all in combat skills for her though, aside from the C+ Reason minimum for Gremory. Where I'm typically running two dedicated offensive mages already (one with Thyrsus, one with Caduceus), Annette's really not gonna measure up that well as a side caster with no 1~3 spells and no extra range until S Reason. I'd much rather keep her as a dedicated support (heals, rallies, dance gambit, etc.)

51 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Slight tangent, but:

Dimitri has an easier time getting to wyvern than Annette does to Bishop for a couple reasons, which reflect more on the imbalance of the 3H class system than anything to do with the specific characters or skills involved:

-It takes 1320 exp to reach A, but only 680 skill exp to reach B. If we're willing to stop one rank short, then it takes 960 to reach B+, but only 460 to reach C+. Either way, you'll notice that the faith requirement for Bishop is about double the axe requirement for Wyvern. The exact amount a bane affects your skill growth is complicated, but it's at least a 1/6 reduction, and at most a 1/2 reduction. So you'll notice that even accounting for bane/neutral, Annette requires more faith training than Dimitri requires axe training, possibly by a fair bit.
-It's worse than that, though: advanced classes which require two prerequisites are more forgiving than those which require one, and you will still have a 40-50% certification rate even if you're TWO ranks short. So arguably the relevant comparison is now 960 faith vs. 300 axe. (And, to be fair, 300 flying, though this is easy to get, since you can train two skills passively in parallel, and of course weekly tasks exist.)

As you say, non-Maddening is more forgiving (4 extra exp for two skills per week adds up), so yeah, I'm sure you can get to Bishop reasonably. My experience on Maddening is that arriving at Advanced jobs with a single A rank requirement (Bishop, Warlock, Sniper, etc.) without a boon can definitely be a bit of a push, and often needs disproportionate training time if you want to be there promptly at Level 20.

Like you mentioned, I think this one can mostly get chalked up to Maddening differences. Healer Annette's definitely not something I'd attempt if I played under the constraints of Maddening. I imagine she'd get benched pretty quickly once Lysithea and Constance join the party. I mainly started using her this way on my Blue Lions runs because I liked the wide range of support options she offers, and overall I enjoy her character a bit more than Mercedes or Linhardt (nothing against those two, their personalities just get kinda dull after a while.) It's really just a fun, convenient little build to shake things up from the usual healer experience, even though it isn't exactly "optimal".

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

55 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Like you mentioned, I think this one can mostly get chalked up to Maddening differences. Healer Annette's definitely not something I'd attempt if I played under the constraints of Maddening. I imagine she'd get benched pretty quickly once Lysithea and Constance join the party. I mainly started using her this way on my Blue Lions runs because I liked the wide range of support options she offers, and overall I enjoy her character a bit more than Mercedes or Linhardt (nothing against those two, their personalities just get kinda dull after a while.) It's really just a fun, convenient little build to shake things up from the usual healer experience, even though it isn't exactly "optimal".

Annette can definitely maintain utility on Maddening, but moreso for her Rally support than anything else. Speed and Strength make a potent pair, while Resistance can provide a situational buff. If you're using her this way, a high-movement path (i.e. Pegasus -> Wyvern Rider, or Cavalier -> Paladin) makes the most sense. That way, you can reach Rally targets more readily, then Canto away to safety.

For my part, she's one of my favorite characters in the game. I fell in love with Abby Trott's voicework for her. But I have a hard time justifying her as an out-of-house recruit, since her paralogue is AM-only.

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It takes 1320 exp to reach A, but only 680 skill exp to reach B. If we're willing to stop one rank short, then it takes 960 to reach B+, but only 460 to reach C+. Either way, you'll notice that the faith requirement for Bishop is about double the axe requirement for Wyvern. The exact amount a bane affects your skill growth is complicated, but it's at least a 1/6 reduction, and at most a 1/2 reduction. So you'll notice that even accounting for bane/neutral, Annette requires more faith training than Dimitri requires axe training, possibly by a fair bit.
-It's worse than that, though: advanced classes which require two prerequisites are more forgiving than those which require one, and you will still have a 40-50% certification rate even if you're TWO ranks short. So arguably the relevant comparison is now 960 faith vs. 300 axe. (And, to be fair, 300 flying, though this is easy to get, since you can train two skills passively in parallel, and of course weekly tasks exist.)

Screw single-target Advanced-tier certifications. All my homies hate single-target Advanced-tier certifications. It's pretty funny to see a unit (say, with A Gauntlets and B Axes) have an easier time getting into War Master than into Warrior. Like, I generally enjoy the "freeclassing" system of 3H, but this part could have used some balancing. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

11 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

I must admit, you both make really good cases for Gremory's movement advantage on my Annette build. I'd still persoanlly consider the Bishop/Gremory difference to be fairly negligible on anyone with Physic. However, on a single range healer like Annette that extra point of movement could really improve her overall versatility as a support. Especially since giving her the Fetters and Mov +1 would bump it up to a total 3 Mov improvement over Bishop. I doubt that I'd invest at all in combat skills for her though, aside from the C+ Reason minimum for Gremory. Where I'm typically running two dedicated offensive mages already (one with Thyrsus, one with Caduceus), Annette's really not gonna measure up that well as a side caster with no 1~3 spells and no extra range until S Reason. I'd much rather keep her as a dedicated support (heals, rallies, dance gambit, etc.)

Yeah, to be clear, I largely agree with you and I'm not trying to say "don't build Annette this way" (especially outside Maddening where the other concern I mentioned stops being an issue), just noting that Gremory is quite a cool class even then.

I feel in some ways inverted from you on Annette builds in that if I want to keep her as a mage (as opposed to the non-mage options @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate notes, which are certainly solid), I'd much rather raise her Reason ranks than her Faith past C (Abraxas isn't very good), so if anything for me it's Faith that's going to be the one at C+/B when she's qualifying for Gremory.

[Barren]

Yeah. I recall that any girl whose reason is at rank A and faith at rank B or vice versa has roughly a 75% chance of certifying as a Gremory. That’s actually not too shabby given the requirements. I made Constance one and I plan on making Hapi one soon as well. Both of them already have Uncanny Blow.

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10 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, to be clear, I largely agree with you and I'm not trying to say "don't build Annette this way" (especially outside Maddening where the other concern I mentioned stops being an issue), just noting that Gremory is quite a cool class even then.

Of course, no worries! I definitely see why Gremory's the better option for my Annette build. I was trying to apply my usual "eh, who cares, they're already a Bishop anyway" logic (which I usually follow with Mercie because Physic) to her. Which, now that you mention it, really doesn't fly on a single range healer/rallybot who leans heavily on movement.

10 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I feel in some ways inverted from you on Annette builds in that if I want to keep her as a mage (as opposed to the non-mage options @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate notes, which are certainly solid), I'd much rather raise her Reason ranks than her Faith past C (Abraxas isn't very good), so if anything for me it's Faith that's going to be the one at C+/B when she's qualifying for Gremory.

Hey, to each their own. For my teams, I always prefer building Annette as a support since I tend to recruit other units (Lyssie, Constance, Hapi, etc.) who do the offensive mage thing a lot better, while Annette's support kit is for the most part unique to her. Ignatz does okay in the role too, I guess, but his Mag growth isn't as good so he's just not as effective a healer.

3 hours ago, Barren said:

Yeah. I recall that any girl whose reason is at rank A and faith at rank B or vice versa has roughly a 75% chance of certifying as a Gremory. That’s actually not too shabby given the requirements. I made Constance one and I plan on making Hapi one soon as well. Both of them already have Uncanny Blow.

Can confirm that these two absolutely wreck house as Gremories, especially with Uncanny Blow.

Constance gets four casts of Bolting, possibly even more if her crest procs on any of them. And Sothis help everyone if you put Thyrsus in her hands. Hapi's basically the unholy cross between a Lysithea and a Linhardt, the kitchen sink of mages: full dark mage Reason lineup, Physic, Seraphim and Warp, all doubled.

[Dark Holy Elf]

31 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Hey, to each their own. For my teams, I always prefer building Annette as a support since I tend to recruit other units (Lyssie, Constance, Hapi, etc.) who do the offensive mage thing a lot better, while Annette's support kit is for the most part unique to her. Ignatz does okay in the role too, I guess, but his Mag growth isn't as good so he's just not as effective a healer.

To be clear, I think building Annette for support is perfectly reasonable! I just don't see much reason to raise her Faith to high levels even then, because the last support spell she gets is at C and further faith ranks do not improve your healing ability in any way. While I even agree that Reason ranks don't do that much for her either, they still do a bit more (Excalibur has some niche against enemy fliers, should you snag it) and they're easier to boost (even accounting for the fact that you're using Faith more than Reason in-battle).

EDIT: With the caveat that if you find yourself needing more than 5 shots of Recover per battle, then of course Bishop has an actual niche for her. I personally never find that to be the case, but your milage may vary!

Edited June 10, 2021 by Dark Holy Elf

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5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

To be clear, I think building Annette for support is perfectly reasonable! I just don't see much reason to raise her Faith to high levels even then, because the last support spell she gets is at C and further faith ranks do not improve your healing ability in any way. While I even agree that Reason ranks don't do that much for her either, they still do a bit more (Excalibur has some niche against enemy fliers, should you snag it) and they're easier to boost (even accounting for the fact that you're using Faith more than Reason in-battle).

Raising her Faith to A is really only so she can reliably get into Bishop/Gremory without needing to invest as much into Reason. Where I'm not utilizing her Reason list at all (or even picking up Fiendish Blow for that matter), getting her to A Faith makes more sense as will happen a lot more naturally. Of course, if you're going for a mixed/more offense-focused build instead, then the opposite is true: training Reason (and Flying to get her into Dark Flier) takes priority over Faith.

6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

EDIT: With the caveat that if you find yourself needing more than 5 shots of Recover per battle, then of course Bishop has an actual niche for her. I personally never find that to be the case, but your milage may vary!

Doesn't Gremory double white magic uses too though?

[Barren]

It does yes. Only difference is that bishops have +10 heal and gremory doesn’t. But healing staff exists so you can most certainly compensate for that.

[drattakbowser]

I see, Bishop is "Great class" them. For Linhardt, Mercedes and Marianne.

[Armchair General]

27 minutes ago, drattakbowser said:

I see, Bishop is "Great class" them. For Linhardt, Mercedes and Marianne.

It's invaluable for any mage once you get Renewal.

[Dark Holy Elf]

4 hours ago, drattakbowser said:

I see, Bishop is "Great class" them. For Linhardt, Mercedes and Marianne.

I don't think it's particularly good for Marianne, honestly? It's passable in that, without DLC, it's the magic-using advanced class she has the easiest time getting to. But she doesn't really need White Uses x2 (5 uses of Physic is probably enough for one unit unless she's literally your only source of healing), and the extra investment to B+ or A faith feels wasted to me because her last useful faith spell is Silence at B (Aura is not good, I actually had to look up that she had it).

Linhardt and Mercedes, though, yeah, absolutely, because they appreciate doubled Warp/Fortify (which they only get at A rank).