Jump to content
Quickpawmaud

Flying classes kinda suck on Maddening. Change my mind.

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

It still sounds like a massive rip-off, given that if I'm building someone as a mage, they are going to get investment in both reason and faith, and given how much of a boon high rank battalions are, authority is also a priority for investment. Adding lances and riding to that forces me to spread myself thin for marginal gain at best. If I have a choice between having a very good chance of being able to access my desired master class the moment I hit level 30 and a much lesser chance of being able to get into my desired class when I hit 30 because it takes much more investment, I'll take the greater chance, thank you very much. 

A) This is discussing Annette specifically though, and her Faith list is *trash garbage*.  It's still good to train her up to D+ Faith of course, but that's quick and effortless.  She'll hit C naturally from the occasional heal and it isn't a big deal to manually train if you want.  After she gets Recover at C (which is not even that important), her next spell is Abraxas at A - which is awful.  Compare Abraxas to Excalibur and weep - Abraxas has +3 Mt and much worse everything else (Hit, Uses, Weight, Crit, Flying Effectiveness).  Even if you bother to learn Abraxas, you will only use it if you somehow run out of all your Excaliburs.  (This is obviously an entirely different conversation for the likes of Lysithea or Mercedes, who learn actually useful spells at high levels of Faith.)

B) Given the above, the point is that if you don't care about Abraxas (and you shouldn't), then it doesn't take much more investment to go DK - it's the same investment.  The actual "I hate skill training and everything it stands for" choice is Warlock, which really is significantly easier to hit than DK / Gremory and can be stayed in the rest of the game at the cost of a pokey 5 Move.

Edited by SnowFire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

It still sounds like a massive rip-off, given that if I'm building someone as a mage, they are going to get investment in both reason and faith, and given how much of a boon high rank battalions are, authority is also a priority for investment. Adding lances and riding to that forces me to spread myself thin for marginal gain at best. If I have a choice between having a very good chance of being able to access my desired master class the moment I hit level 30 and a much lesser chance of being able to get into my desired class when I hit 30 because it takes much more investment, I'll take the greater chance, thank you very much. 

There is little reason to train Annette above D Faith. Maybe she hits C Faith from combat using Heal. But it really isn't that impactful.

Dark Knight takes the same amount of effort to get into as Gremory. Even less investment if you have DLC because of how much free Riding wexp Valkyrie gives. Dark Knight Annette is an incredibly low investment unit. It's her ideal class if you are planning on using Blue Lion Dancers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To second what others have said, here is some math that shows how completely reasonable and not high-investment Dark Knight Annette is.

Let's talk Maddening mode (other modes have higher exp gain), Azure Moon. We'll also ignore DLC (Valkyrie and sauna both make this even easier), Annette's assumed path is a simple Monk -> Mage -> Warlock -> Dark Knight.

Let's say your goal is to reach Dark Knight by Chapter 17. That gives Annette 16 chapters in which to gain exp, plus 10 paralogues (this is assuming only recruitment of staff members, for the record, and again no DLC... realistically I would imagine most players recruit at minimum Lorenz for Land of the Golden Deer, but I'm still ignoring that). Let's assume she averages 8 actions per map (which suggests a reasonably brisk playstyle considering Annette has access to Heal on turns she can't reach enemies).

Annette starts with 180 reason exp and 40 authority exp = 220 total.

Annette's in-battle actions give an average of 4 action exp (actual range varies from 2 faith in Noble to 6 reason in Warlock) and 3 authority exp. 56 exp per battle = 1456 exp total.

There are 37 training weeks up to this point. Annette gains 40 if she trains two things which are neutral, 48 if they're both strong. She's strong in authority and reason, neutral in lance/riding/faith. Let's split the difference (even though Annette spends more time training reason/authority, see below) and say 44 = 1628 exp total.

You can tutor characters in 36 weeks. However, you (probably) have more units than tutoring slots. Let's assume we tutor Annette in two thirds (24) of those weeks. Tutoring gives 4 (neutral, no bonuses) to 8 (boon, statue bonus) exp... 10 is possible with professor expertise but we'll ignore that. Call it an average 6. You get an average multiplier of 6 from a full tutoring session (anywhere from 4 to 10, but on average towards the lower end). 36 exp per session, 24 sessions = 864 total.

Grand total of 4168 exp by Chapter 17.

Now, how could we use this? A few ways, but:
C lances (300) for DK certification
C+ riding (460) for DK certification [3 ranks short, good enough for a ~50% certification rate]
C faith (300) for Recover
A reason (1320) for Warlock certification and Excalibur
A authority (1320) for access to Blue Lion Dancers - note that if you have any other battalion planned for her, you can lop 640 exp off this cost, since all the other good mage battalions are B rank or lower (Timotheos Mages, Ordelia Sorcery, Kingdom Priests, Edmund Troops, Gloucester Knights, School of Sorcery)

That's 3700 total... over 400 is leftover, so even if you assume some of my assumptions are generous (and if anything, I tried to err on the opposite side!) she should make all of these. In practice she'll be well on her way to A+ reason for Prowess 5 and perhaps even started S Reason for Black Magic Range+1. Or you could do a little dip for Lightning Axe instead (420 extra exp needed... not that I think Mir would do this one!). Or you could reach B riding to make the certification rate a little more reliable (220 exp needed) if you're not savescumming and want to save a little money.

Having Annette, or indeed any mage, certify for Dark Knight is not a problem. Even Dorothea, who has a riding bane, easily makes the required benchmarks. There are expensive builds out there; this is not one.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/5/2021 at 12:13 PM, SnowFire said:

A) This is discussing Annette specifically though, and her Faith list is *trash garbage*.  It's still good to train her up to D+ Faith of course, but that's quick and effortless.  She'll hit C naturally from the occasional heal and it isn't a big deal to manually train if you want.  After she gets Recover at C (which is not even that important), her next spell is Abraxas at A - which is awful.  Compare Abraxas to Excalibur and weep - Abraxas has +3 Mt and much worse everything else (Hit, Uses, Weight, Crit, Flying Effectiveness).  Even if you bother to learn Abraxas, you will only use it if you somehow run out of all your Excaliburs.  (This is obviously an entirely different conversation for the likes of Lysithea or Mercedes, who learn actually useful spells at high levels of Faith.)

B) Given the above, the point is that if you don't care about Abraxas (and you shouldn't), then it doesn't take much more investment to go DK - it's the same investment.  The actual "I hate skill training and everything it stands for" choice is Warlock, which really is significantly easier to hit than DK / Gremory and can be stayed in the rest of the game at the cost of a pokey 5 Move.

This has nothing to do with caring about Abraxas. It has nothing to do with hating skill training, either. It has everything to do with the fact that I utterly despise high-investment builds that do not even have the decency to pay off adequately, which Dark Knight stinks heavily of. If I put in a lot of effort only for that effort not to be compensated with actually performing well enough on the battlefield to justify it, then I wasted my time. AND I DO NOT LIKE WASTING MY TIME! It's nowhere near the level of Bow Knight, which, while it is a high-investment class, actually has enough going for it to make that investment feel worth it. Dark Knight is a marginal improvement over Gremory in offense, which is not nearly enough for me to justify sacrificing convenience (oh, wow, 2 more damage... that certainly justifies the copious investment in riding that this needs... oh wait...). As things are, Edelgard is about the only female that I'd consider Dark Knight over Gremory for, and that's largely because she has a weakness in Faith (of course, this is ignoring the fact that she's more physically inclined).

On 9/5/2021 at 6:12 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

To second what others have said, here is some math that shows how completely reasonable and not high-investment Dark Knight Annette is.

Let's talk Maddening mode (other modes have higher exp gain), Azure Moon. We'll also ignore DLC (Valkyrie and sauna both make this even easier), Annette's assumed path is a simple Monk -> Mage -> Warlock -> Dark Knight.

Let's say your goal is to reach Dark Knight by Chapter 17. That gives Annette 16 chapters in which to gain exp, plus 10 paralogues (this is assuming only recruitment of staff members, for the record, and again no DLC... realistically I would imagine most players recruit at minimum Lorenz for Land of the Golden Deer, but I'm still ignoring that). Let's assume she averages 8 actions per map (which suggests a reasonably brisk playstyle considering Annette has access to Heal on turns she can't reach enemies).

Annette starts with 180 reason exp and 40 authority exp = 220 total.

Annette's in-battle actions give an average of 4 action exp (actual range varies from 2 faith in Noble to 6 reason in Warlock) and 3 authority exp. 56 exp per battle = 1456 exp total.

There are 37 training weeks up to this point. Annette gains 40 if she trains two things which are neutral, 48 if they're both strong. She's strong in authority and reason, neutral in lance/riding/faith. Let's split the difference (even though Annette spends more time training reason/authority, see below) and say 44 = 1628 exp total.

You can tutor characters in 36 weeks. However, you (probably) have more units than tutoring slots. Let's assume we tutor Annette in two thirds (24) of those weeks. Tutoring gives 4 (neutral, no bonuses) to 8 (boon, statue bonus) exp... 10 is possible with professor expertise but we'll ignore that. Call it an average 6. You get an average multiplier of 6 from a full tutoring session (anywhere from 4 to 10, but on average towards the lower end). 36 exp per session, 24 sessions = 864 total.

Grand total of 4168 exp by Chapter 17.

Now, how could we use this? A few ways, but:
C lances (300) for DK certification
C+ riding (460) for DK certification [3 ranks short, good enough for a ~50% certification rate]
C faith (300) for Recover
A reason (1320) for Warlock certification and Excalibur
A authority (1320) for access to Blue Lion Dancers - note that if you have any other battalion planned for her, you can lop 640 exp off this cost, since all the other good mage battalions are B rank or lower (Timotheos Mages, Ordelia Sorcery, Kingdom Priests, Edmund Troops, Gloucester Knights, School of Sorcery)

That's 3700 total... over 400 is leftover, so even if you assume some of my assumptions are generous (and if anything, I tried to err on the opposite side!) she should make all of these. In practice she'll be well on her way to A+ reason for Prowess 5 and perhaps even started S Reason for Black Magic Range+1. Or you could do a little dip for Lightning Axe instead (420 extra exp needed... not that I think Mir would do this one!). Or you could reach B riding to make the certification rate a little more reliable (220 exp needed) if you're not savescumming and want to save a little money.

Having Annette, or indeed any mage, certify for Dark Knight is not a problem. Even Dorothea, who has a riding bane, easily makes the required benchmarks. There are expensive builds out there; this is not one.

Come on now, man. You may find that reasonable, but that most definitely does not mean I will agree... Once again, I prefer convenience and practicality over whatever the fuck Dark Knight has going for it. I've said it a million times by now, I'd rather have a high chance to be strong now than a lower chance to be marginally stronger. Also, considering how much investment this needs, 50% pass chance ain't good enough for me.

On 9/5/2021 at 4:16 PM, Objeckts said:

There is little reason to train Annette above D Faith. Maybe she hits C Faith from combat using Heal. But it really isn't that impactful.

Dark Knight takes the same amount of effort to get into as Gremory. Even less investment if you have DLC because of how much free Riding wexp Valkyrie gives. Dark Knight Annette is an incredibly low investment unit. It's her ideal class if you are planning on using Blue Lion Dancers.

And as I see it, there's no way in the seven hells this is even remotely worth it, because I do not like taking the path of most resistance, which this stinks heavily of being, when it doesn't even have a good payoff.

Edited by Shadow Mir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, considering how much investment this needs, 50% pass chance ain't good enough for me.

You can try that 50% chance 4-5 times per month, so it's ~93-96% per chapter in practice. And I already showed it's possible to hit B if you don't value Lightning Axe, which makes the certification rate 70%, or over 99% per chapter.

Finally, if you're really going to leave Annette in Warlock, I question the wisdom of giving her Blue Lions Dancers, when she will struggle to get in good positions to use it. In other words, you're probably happy with B authority... at which point you can get the Riding to A instead, and have your 100% certification rate if that's what you really want.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I've said it a million times by now, I'd rather have a high chance to be strong now than a lower chance to be marginally stronger.

Nothing about the Dark Knight build has less immediate strength than the one you proposed. Both are going through Monk -> Mage -> Warlock, both are hitting required authority and benchmarks in a timely fashion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

... I DO NOT LIKE WASTING MY TIME! ... Dark Knight is a marginal improvement over Gremory in offense, which is not nearly enough for me to justify sacrificing convenience (oh, wow, 2 more damage... that certainly justifies the copious investment in riding that this needs... oh wait...).

Garreg Mach cafe has 3 new sandwiches for sale: the Warlock sandwich which costs 5 gold, the Dark Knight sandwich which costs 10 gold, and the Gremory sandwich which costs 10 gold.  You can also pay extra for some condiments - avocado costs 2 gold extra, and Abraxas sauce costs 5 gold extra, although the Abraxas comes free if you purchase a Gremory sandwich.

If hungry Shadow Annette is on a budget, she might grab the Warlock sandwich.  If Annette likes Abraxas sauce for some reason (ick!  it's an acquired taste) and wants to order it, then she might as well get the Gremory sandwich, it's basically the same price at that point.  If Annette feels like she wants a premium sandwich but doesn't care for Abraxas sauce, then there's no price difference between the Gremory sandwich and the Dark Knight sandwich.  It's just a matter of math: they both cost 10 gold.  There's no additional "effort" to get one or the other, so she should buy the one she likes the best.  If she likes Gremory sandwich better anyway, that's cool of course!  Just don't justify it by saying it's cheaper or less effort, because it's not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/8/2021 at 1:24 AM, Shadow Mir said:

50% pass chance ain't good enough for me.

Take the test at the start of the month and reload the "new chapter" save if you fail. You'll get a new RN. If you don't like doing that, then just save and take the test then reload the save until you get it right. 50% pass chance looks bad until you take it and shitter cert anyway.

On 9/8/2021 at 1:24 AM, Shadow Mir said:

oh, wow, 2 more damage... that certainly justifies the copious investment in riding that this needs... oh wait...).

2 damage is really good, but you're also forgetting 7 move and canto. Those are nothing to scoff at. Even when dismounted, the dark knight has more move than a Gremory.

 

On 9/8/2021 at 8:31 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Finally, if you're really going to leave Annette in Warlock, I question the wisdom of giving her Blue Lions Dancers,

I've only ever seen the blue lion dancers be put on a unit when you have a strategy to 1turn the map. IMO there's no reason to equip it otherwise. If I'm putting the Blue Lion dancers on a warlock Annette it's because she's the only option for it (A auth is kind of expensive) and she just doesn't have a more mobile class yet. But you're right in this case. Honestly if you plan to put the blue lion dancers on Annette your best option is thief for 5 move and unhindered movement through forests.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/9/2021 at 11:41 PM, OriginalRaisins said:

I've only ever seen the blue lion dancers be put on a unit when you have a strategy to 1turn the map. IMO there's no reason to equip it otherwise. If I'm putting the Blue Lion dancers on a warlock Annette it's because she's the only option for it (A auth is kind of expensive) and she just doesn't have a more mobile class yet. But you're right in this case. Honestly if you plan to put the blue lion dancers on Annette your best option is thief for 5 move and unhindered movement through forests.

Blue Lion Dancers gives up to 4 units an extra turn at the cost of a single turn. It's 100% worth running for general play. It is debatably the best gambit in the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Objeckts said:

It is debatably the best gambit in the game.

I totally agree it's the best gambit in the game. It's the best gambit in the game because it gives you loads of power to 1turn maps. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even if you're not one-turning maps, it's still useful. I don't one-turn maps and don't value things that let you do so, but the action economy is still hard to argue with. The biggest issue with it isn't the gambit, it's the fact that it's attached to weak/late battalions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/8/2021 at 8:31 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Finally, if you're really going to leave Annette in Warlock, I question the wisdom of giving her Blue Lions Dancers

You gotta admit, though, that A authority is pretty demanding. About the only characters I can see getting there in any reasonable timeframe are anyone with a bonus in authority. Like Byleth, for example (which is what I did; probably not the best choice I could have made, admittedly, but whatever).

On 9/9/2021 at 10:41 PM, OriginalRaisins said:

2 damage is really good, but you're also forgetting 7 move and canto. Those are nothing to scoff at. Even when dismounted, the dark knight has more move than a Gremory.

That doesn't help nearly as much in practice as it does in theory. Also, 2 extra damage is not "really good". It's *bleep* underwhelming. As is Dark Knight in general.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

That doesn't help nearly as much in practice as it does in theory. Also, 2 extra damage is not "really good". It's *bleep* underwhelming. As is Dark Knight in general.

If the argument is one of experience, then I could just say that, in my personal experience, getting to attack and Canto away is pretty great. There are plenty of cases where an infantry magic user could attack a foe, but in doing so, leave themselves in enemy range. Canto obviates this. Or, you can support an ally with Draw Back, while still moving your full range. On top of that, 2 more spaces of attack range, in every direction, multiplies your options. There are cases for favoring Magic Uses x2 infantry classes, sure (siege spell users, Warp/Physic support). But in terms of raw "offensive mage", the mounted options are generally superior.

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

You gotta admit, though, that A authority is pretty demanding. About the only characters I can see getting there in any reasonable timeframe are anyone with a bonus in authority. Like Byleth, for example (which is what I did; probably not the best choice I could have made, admittedly, but whatever).

Quite a few characters offer an Authority boon, though - Teach, the Lords, at least one extra unit per house, and Seteth. Oh, Yuri and Constance, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

You gotta admit, though, that A authority is pretty demanding. About the only characters I can see getting there in any reasonable timeframe are anyone with a bonus in authority. Like Byleth, for example

Or Annette, yes. I posted the math above for how I think it's reasonable to get her A authority by the time she unlocks Dark Knight (and perhaps even a bit earlier, depending on your exact timeframe of priorities up to that point).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Even if you're not one-turning maps, it's still useful. I don't one-turn maps and don't value things that let you do so, but the action economy is still hard to argue with. The biggest issue with it isn't the gambit, it's the fact that it's attached to weak/late battalions.

The action economy is good but you're sandbagging one unit hard for a single opportunity to get four units back. If equipping the battalion basically nerfs your unit to the point that you can no longer fight with them, then you're losing action economy each turn you have it equipped. Though this is a somewhat flawed connection to draw, if you have BL dancers or Opera Co. volunteers equipped on a unit for more than 4 turns in one map, you've net lost action economy. Of course the large burst in actions is really strong, but it's strongest if you can plan ahead where you're going to use it for the most benefit.

There's an argument to be made that you should put the gambit on your dancer themselves, and while this move doesn't hurt your position, it also removes one of the strongest features of the gambit: dancing for your dancer.

In general I think the battalion is really strong, one of the strongest in the game for sure, but I only equip it if I know exactly when, where, why, and for whom I am going to use the gambit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@OriginalRaisins I don't disagree, but... Annette, notably, is one of the better units to sandbag this way. Even with her stats nerfed she can still deliver respectable chip from range, and it has no effect on her healing or rallies. She probably still has enough oomph to one-round armour knights with it too. It does do bad things to her attempts to pull one-shots with Lightning Axe/Dust, but I don't think it's so simple that you can say that if the battle lasts 4 turns, it's a net negative, because a lot of Annette's turns are not negatively affected.

I do agree about the part about that sort of planning and is one of the reasons I didn't throw the gambit a 10/10 when we rated them because I've certainly ended up with fights where I treated it as a "break glass in case of emergency" tool and said emergency never materialized... but it's still good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I don't disagree, but... Annette, notably, is one of the better units to sandbag this way. Even with her stats nerfed she can still deliver respectable chip from range, and it has no effect on her healing or rallies. She probably still has enough oomph to one-round armour knights with it too. It does do bad things to her attempts to pull one-shots with Lightning Axe/Dust, but I don't think it's so simple that you can say that if the battle lasts 4 turns, it's a net negative, because a lot of Annette's turns are not negatively affected.

I tend to love and overrate Annette, but honestly, she could do worse than be a "Dance-of-the-Goddess, Rally, and Recover" bot. Even if her offense is compromised, she can still provide valuable support. Assuming you don't need "Dance of the Goddess" and "Strength/Speed Rally" on the same turn, that is.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

do agree about the part about that sort of planning and is one of the reasons I didn't throw the gambit a 10/10 when we rated them because I've certainly ended up with fights where I treated it as a "break glass in case of emergency" tool and said emergency never materialized... but it's still good.

Rating gambits, you say? Somebody should really get on top of rating the battalions that carry them!

...It's a work-in-progress. Even simply compiling a spreadsheet with all the battalions is sapping my will to live. Hoping to get something out by the end of the month, haha.

8 hours ago, OriginalRaisins said:

The action economy is good but you're sandbagging one unit hard for a single opportunity to get four units back. If equipping the battalion basically nerfs your unit to the point that you can no longer fight with them, then you're losing action economy each turn you have it equipped. Though this is a somewhat flawed connection to draw, if you have BL dancers or Opera Co. volunteers equipped on a unit for more than 4 turns in one map, you've net lost action economy. Of course the large burst in actions is really strong, but it's strongest if you can plan ahead where you're going to use it for the most benefit.

I would say it's generally worth it, so long as what the "Dance of the Goddess" unit would otherwise provide is less valuable than the input of the four targeted units. If I have a unit who's intended to secure the boss kill, then of course they're not gonna be the one saddled with this gambit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I usually just slap on the blue lions dancer gambit onto someone I know that can function in the front lines as long as the -1 strength and magic doesn’t cripple me too much. The 20 avoid is always nice to utilize other than the one time refresh for your dancer and three other units.

Like sometimes Byleth, Lysithea or even Flayn could get away with it. Yuri is another one. It just all depends on your team formation really. As far as giving it to Annette, I’d rather have her be one of the recipients so she could either rally another physical fighter or have someone else rally her to do better damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/15/2021 at 7:22 PM, OriginalRaisins said:

The action economy is good but you're sandbagging one unit hard for a single opportunity to get four units back. If equipping the battalion basically nerfs your unit to the point that you can no longer fight with them, then you're losing action economy each turn you have it equipped. Though this is a somewhat flawed connection to draw, if you have BL dancers or Opera Co. volunteers equipped on a unit for more than 4 turns in one map, you've net lost action economy. Of course the large burst in actions is really strong, but it's strongest if you can plan ahead where you're going to use it for the most benefit.

This sounds fairly similar to the "why bring a dancer when you can bring another combat unit?" argument, to be honest, with more variables attached to it. Even playing casually, an excellent turn 1 or 2 can completely change the face of almost any map, and this gambit does make one of those almost trivial to achieve. FE maps are rarely designed to last more than 10 turns... or let's say 15 to be conservative, to begin with.

I can agree that it's... overkill friendly, though. The debate of what strong tool is actually genuinely helpful is a very interesting one. Alas, as players who don't really need help in the first place, I don't know that we'd be amazing at determining this in particular.

Edited by Cysx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...