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Red Dingo

If someone had successfully assassinated Manfroy...

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And stolen/destroyed the Loptuous Tome before it could be given to Julius, would he still have become a tyrant or might he have tried to implement a Maerist reform to put an end to Loptyri persecution?

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Presumably the tome can't be entirely destroyed.

Without the tome, Julius would have been a very different person, of course. The way I understand Loptous is that he places a geas of sorts on someone wielding the tome with major blood. This geas exchanges some (but not all) of the person's self-control and identity to be replaced with desires and behavior that benefit Loptous' general hatred for humanity, in exchange for the overwhelming power of the tome. So while I don't think Julius is Loptous per se, he's certainly totally given over to Loptous' will once he gets the book.

If he were to not get the book, Julius would eventually inherit the throne as his original self. But I don't think this necessarily saves Jugdral. The Loptrians represent an institutional problem, not just a magical one. Child hunts and slavery (I think) occur under Arvis' rule, even if Julius was the real power at that point. What this means is that Jugdral would still be heavily damaged even if Julius somehow didn't get the book, because people like Travant, Hilda, the Dozels etc. are still around and allying with Loptrians to gain power.

As such, there's not much Julius could really do in the way of reform. In fact, it's possible he would be sheltered from his own heritage, despite his prominent major blood mark (presumably that's what's on his forehead). If he were told, there's still not much he could do since he is not even the actual emperor. The only thing he could do is defect to the Liberation Army, but as we see with Ishtar, that's not necessarily an easy choice even for the best of people.

All of this is underpinned by the fact that the whole existence of the Loptrian Church is centered around producing a major blooded individual who then gets handed the Loptous tome. It would be really embarrassing if they just... lost it (though as we see with Kutuzov, that's not an impossibility).

Edited by hi_scroes

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Except unless they have a big-enough rallying figure like Manfroy was, then without him and Loptr!Julius, then it's possible the Cult cause just... collapses. Specially if Arvis does keep to his word and gives protection from persecution to the rest of them. The child hunts would just never happen if the Cult loses much of its drive and power hold. Specially when those didn't really start until after Julius got the tome, and this hypothetical scenario, he never does. Perhaps some of the more radicals go on trying to recover the tome and give it to Julius, but the longer it's held off, the longer does Grannvale's Golden Era lasts.

Of course, one thing unchanged is... Seliph. Oifey and Shannan are likely to still plan their rebellion with Seliph as their face, even if the darkness doesn't have as much of a hold on the Empire as it could've, so Seliph won't be as much the Scion of Light as he would've been proclaimed to be. So things aren't going to be just fine even if the Loptrians never get to usurp the Empire from within.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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Just to clarify, it sounded like the Child Hunts only started getting into gear when Julius had the throne and was possessed by Loptyr. Even if the tome was indestructible, it could still theoretically be placed in a chest and dropped off somewhere in the middle of the ocean, which has a similar effect to destroying it. It honestly seems like an easier way to the thwart Loptyr than forcing a girl to strike down her twin brother.

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3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Except unless they have a big-enough rallying figure like Manfroy was, then without him and Loptr!Julius, then it's possible the Cult cause just... collapses. Specially if Arvis does keep to his word and gives protection from persecution to the rest of them. The child hunts would just never happen if the Cult loses much of its drive and power hold. Specially when those didn't really start until after Julius got the tome, and this hypothetical scenario, he never does. Perhaps some of the more radicals go on trying to recover the tome and give it to Julius, but the longer it's held off, the longer does Grannvale's Golden Era lasts.

Manfroy isn't a once-in-a-lifetime evil power, he just happens to be in charge. In other words, I see no reason that someone wouldn't be able to take his place. The Loptrian faith is centered around gaining the power of Loptous for oneself because that power is the power to rule over everyone else -- with it, you are effectively invincible and perhaps even gain the persuasive abilities Tine describes. You can reasonably expect that power to be appealing to most people's base desires, especially if they've been persecuted into living in a desert temple for over 100 years. So I think it makes sense to expect further Loptrian activity even if Manfroy were assassinated -- it's not like he's brainwashing his own Loptrians into the religion.

It's difficult for me to discuss "what would happen if Manfroy just left the Loptous tome in his other pants" because I don't think any of the dragons in FE4 would allow such insignificant things to disrupt their grand plans. We can see the dragons manipulate fate in a handful of ways but most clearly through the geasa they impose on people. In the case of Lewyn and (presumably) Brigid, the dragons manipulate quintessence and bring the dead back to life on some strange, esoteric terms. So basically we know that the good dragons can change fate to their liking, or at least they can get involved in events in an esoteric fashion in order to ensure the fate they desire plays out.

Esoteric is a good word for Loptous' behaviour too. His last words seem like a generic "I'm evil and will always win!" type deal, but they also do imply that Loptous is an eternal, intangible presence in the world. Perhaps this presence can manipulate events subtly to bring the book to Julius no matter how far away it goes (even if it doesn't make realistic sense). So to me it seems like Loptous' influence would bring his tome to where it needs to be as long as there are Loptrians in the world to carry it around, again meaning that Manfroy isn't vital to the plan. Even if it was at the bottom of the ocean, it just makes more sense to me to see it as a cursed object that will always find its way home through esoteric means.

Not having major-blooded individuals seems like more of a pressing concern for everyone in Jugdral including the divine dragons; perhaps everyone is already aware that trying to destroy or hide the book simply isn't going to be effective against a force like Loptous, and so they correctly focus on the people that could wield it instead. So I guess it's just hard for me to think too much about a world where the book doesn't reach Julius because it's such a fated event. The mistake wasn't giving Julius the book, it was giving Julius major Loptous blood, and so blood is the only thing that needs to be lost to correct the mistake.

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2 minutes ago, hi_scroes said:

Manfroy isn't a once-in-a-lifetime evil power, he just happens to be in charge. In other words, I see no reason that someone wouldn't be able to take his place. The Loptrian faith is centered around gaining the power of Loptous for oneself because that power is the power to rule over everyone else -- with it, you are effectively invincible and perhaps even gain the persuasive abilities Tine describes. You can reasonably expect that power to be appealing to most people's base desires, especially if they've been persecuted into living in a desert temple for over 100 years. So I think it makes sense to expect further Loptrian activity even if Manfroy were assassinated -- it's not like he's brainwashing his own Loptrians into the religion.

Of course, it all depends on who assassinated him and how, as per this hypothetical scenario. If it was Arvis himself, who would be familiar enough with the Cult, then he'd perhaps know who are the ringleaders to also take care of. Alternatively, it could've been the Maera situation all over again. Cultists who preferred the reformist teachings of Maera, and hopeful for Arvis' promise of bettering their lives, would be willing to kill Manfroy and his most loyal subordinates.

Not brainwashing, but certainly there's a lot of indoctrination. Yet Salem shows that even then not everyone is 100% on board... or that they can't change their minds.

It also all depends if Arvis was able to achieve his promise to the Loptrian followers during the few years before Julius got the tome. Some of them no doubt would be content with that instead of wanting to actually bring back Loptous.

2 minutes ago, hi_scroes said:

It's difficult for me to discuss "what would happen if Manfroy just left the Loptous tome in his other pants" because I don't think any of the dragons in FE4 would allow such insignificant things to disrupt their grand plans. We can see the dragons manipulate fate in a handful of ways but most clearly through the geasa they impose on people. In the case of Lewyn and (presumably) Brigid, the dragons manipulate quintessence and bring the dead back to life on some strange, esoteric terms. So basically we know that the good dragons can change fate to their liking, or at least they can get involved in events in an esoteric fashion in order to ensure the fate they desire plays out.

Except the dragons, specially most if not all of the group that went with Naga to Jugdral, are already gone. The geas thing we only really see with Lewyn, and even then it wasn't Forseti himself who did it. Rather, it was the echo of his will left behind in the tome, as Kaga stated he was too passionate to help humanity that said desire remained in the tome, even after he was forced to return to Archanea... and never returned. It's the same for Loptous. He himself is already dead, what remains is his own echo left imprinted on the tome. As it is, the tomes' echoes aren't the dragons themselves, and thus they aren't really in position to impose their wants as they're very restricted themsleves in what they can do. The most we can say is the Loptous echo influencing Manfroy from within the tome, but there's no evidence to suggest that. As it is, if Manfroy dies and the tome is hidden somewhere, then there's not much the echo itself can do.

2 minutes ago, hi_scroes said:

Esoteric is a good word for Loptous' behaviour too. His last words seem like a generic "I'm evil and will always win!" type deal, but they also do imply that Loptous is an eternal, intangible presence in the world. Perhaps this presence can manipulate events subtly to bring the book to Julius no matter how far away it goes (even if it doesn't make realistic sense). So to me it seems like Loptous' influence would bring his tome to where it needs to be as long as there are Loptrians in the world to carry it around, again meaning that Manfroy isn't vital to the plan. Even if it was at the bottom of the ocean, it just makes more sense to me to see it as a cursed object that will always find its way home through esoteric means.

Only in the sense that the tome might be indestructible, and thus the echo residing within can't be destroyed either. There's no evidence they can really do much if a suitable wielder of the tome isn't present, so I doubt it can manipulate things to get to Julius.

If it was possible, then the same would've happened with the Naga Tome, as Kaga stated it also houses an echo of Naga within. And with it being sealed away, I doubt it could influence Manfroy to commit that one mistake of his, to ensure Julia would be rescued. Since there's really no evidence that they can do much beyond affecting their wielders.

2 minutes ago, hi_scroes said:

Not having major-blooded individuals seems like more of a pressing concern for everyone in Jugdral including the divine dragons; perhaps everyone is already aware that trying to destroy or hide the book simply isn't going to be effective against a force like Loptous, and so they correctly focus on the people that could wield it instead. So I guess it's just hard for me to think too much about a world where the book doesn't reach Julius because it's such a fated event. The mistake wasn't giving Julius the book, it was giving Julius major Loptous blood, and so blood is the only thing that needs to be lost to correct the mistake.

Nothing is set in stone. Just because it's what happened in the game it doesn't mean it was the only thing it could happen. Obviously it happened otherwise there'd be no game, or at least no Gen 2. As it is, from a more general viewpoint, it wasn't a predestined thing for Loptous to rise again.

There's no evidence to suggest that it was already tried. We don't know what was the fate of the Book the first time around Loptous was defeated. We only know that by the present time, it's in Manfroy's hands.

Ultimately, the thread is not about talking if it was possible or not, but on what would've happened if it did happened that Julius never got possessed by the Loptous echo.

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I don't think Julius would have ever made it to the throne.

Suppose Manfroy is killed, and the Book of Loptyr disappears (destroyed? stolen? they don't know). The Loptyr Cult panics - having lost two of their three ingredients, they kidnap Julius for safekeeping. This earns them the ire of Arvis, who moves to purge the Cult. But in doing so, he divides the Empire's forces, and creates an opening for liberation movements - in Augustria, Silesse, Isaach, and Northern Thracia. Arvis can't save his son while also putting out these nascent fires and maintaining the unity of the remaining Houses of Grannvale. Maybe he gets Julius back, but by then, the Empire's grip on all the aforementioned regions has severely eroded, at the very least. And with no Loptyr Cult backing them, the Empire doesn't strike the same degree of fear into the locals. Expect a couple revolutions, then a schism or two, culminating in a coup that displaces Arvis himself within a failing experiment at empire.

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I'd think that if the cultists resort to kidnapping... it'd be Julia, not Julius.

I mean, it's best to keep the vessel of their deity on the throne as they go search the tome (assuming it can't or wasn't destroyed), and if it takes until giving the tome to Julius' child or grandchild... then so be it. After all, now that there's another mayor blood carrier, then so long the line continues, the mayor blood won't be going anywhere. Simply put, too much effort was done to ensure a suitable vessel would be in charge of practically the entire continent to be undone. Julia, meanwhile, inheriting the mayor Naga blood, she and her descendants would be the ones considered a threat and thus in need to be dealt with.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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15 hours ago, hi_scroes said:

All of this is underpinned by the fact that the whole existence of the Loptrian Church is centered around producing a major blooded individual who then gets handed the Loptous tome. It would be really embarrassing if they just... lost it (though as we see with Kutuzov, that's not an impossibility).

How Manfroy even got a hold of the tome initself is a bit of a plot hole. Even if the Crusaders were ignorant of the true nature of it, you'd think they would have taken the tome away and kept it in a vault or something rather than just idk leaving it lying around somewhere for his cult to pick up. Unless it was stored in a vault in Barhara and Manfroy only had access to it after the coup, but if that is the case then that's a massive loose end of uncertainty for Manfroy during the first gen as a large part of his motivation vanishes if he doesn't already have the tome or know of its whereabouts.

15 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Of course, one thing unchanged is... Seliph. Oifey and Shannan are likely to still plan their rebellion with Seliph as their face, even if the darkness doesn't have as much of a hold on the Empire as it could've, so Seliph won't be as much the Scion of Light as he would've been proclaimed to be. So things aren't going to be just fine even if the Loptrians never get to usurp the Empire from within.

The rebellion without the lopt sect is a very interesting scenario. As Seliph and co kind of would be the bad guys if everyone in the empire is happy with the status quo. Yet I still fully believe they would rebel, especially if Alvis and Blume continue the campaigns of actively hunting them down. Seliph and Leif are no doubt heroes, but I think their actions are also individive of feudalism and if the story was slightly different then they would be the villains. Which is why I can get behind Camuses like Ishtar and Brian a bit more than some like Selene. To them, Seliph and co are the immoral ones trying to overthrow the natural order they've grown up with, which for a long time was a pretty good place.

Edited by Jotari

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10 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'd think that if the cultists resort to kidnapping... it'd be Julia, not Julius.

I mean, it's best to keep the vessel of their deity on the throne as they go search the tome (assuming it can't or wasn't destroyed), and if it takes until giving the tome to Julius' child or grandchild... then so be it. After all, now that there's another mayor blood carrier, then so long the line continues, the mayor blood won't be going anywhere. Simply put, too much effort was done to ensure a suitable vessel would be in charge of practically the entire continent to be undone. Julia, meanwhile, inheriting the mayor Naga blood, she and her descendants would be the ones considered a threat and thus in need to be dealt with.

My point in "kidnap Julius" was to ensure that he survives. If someone knows the Loptyr Cult's plans well enough to kill Manfroy and take the Book of Loptyr, then they likely know that Julius has major Loptyr blood. Making him a target for assassination, and dashing their plans upon the rocks. So the Cult needs to protect him as they try to recover the lost tome.

Obviously, they'd want to stop Julia from getting the Book of Naga. In vanilla FE4, they kidnap and brainwash her, and Manfroy steals the Book of Naga. If they were more clever about it, however, they would've simply killed Julia. They have no reason to keep her alive, outside of stunting on Seliph.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

How Manfroy even got a hold of the tome initself is a bit of a plot hole. Even if the Crusaders were ignorant of the true nature of it, you'd think they would have taken the tome away and kept it in a vault or something rather than just idk leaving it lying around somewhere for his cult to pick up. Unless it was stored in a vault in Barhara and Manfroy only had access to it after the coup, but if that is the case then that's a massive loose end of uncertainty for Manfroy during the first gen as a large part of his motivation vanishes if he doesn't already have the tome or know of its whereabouts.

I wouldn't call it a "plot hole" so much as a "loose thread". It's totally plausible that Manfroy knows where the Book of Loptyr is being held, considering his villainous near-omniscience. In which case, he could use his OP villain warping powers to show up, grab it, and escape. Or he could hire a thief to get it - we know a thief was able to get into the Aed Shrine to acquire Balmung, so doing the same for the Book of Loptyr is reasonable. 

Edited by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Clarification.

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2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

My point in "kidnap Julius" was to ensure that he survives. If someone knows the Loptyr Cult's plans well enough to kill Manfroy and take the Book of Loptyr, then they likely know that Julius has major Loptyr blood. Making him a target for assassination, and dashing their plans upon the rocks. So the Cult needs to protect him as they try to recover the lost tome.

Obviously, they'd want to stop Julia from getting the Book of Naga. In vanilla FE4, they kidnap and brainwash her, and Manfroy steals the Book of Naga. If they were more clever about it, however, they would've simply killed Julia. They have no reason to keep her alive, outside of stunting on Seliph.

I wouldn't call it a "plot hole" so much as a "loose thread". It's totally plausible that Manfroy knows where the Book of Loptyr is being held, considering his villainous near-omniscience. In which case, he could use his OP villain warping powers to show up, grab it, and escape. Or he could hire a thief to get it - we know a thief was able to get into the Aed Shrine to acquire Balmung, so doing the same for the Book of Loptyr is reasonable. 

By plot hole I don't so much mean an irreconcilable flaw in the narrative, I mean an unexplained detail that is kind of important.

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People are always misplacing their Artifacts of Doom in a Post-Apocalyptic Aftermath. It's basic epic narrative 101. If the Crusaders had any sense, they'd have tossed the Loptuous Tome into the middle of the ocean after taking out the last Galle.

Edited by Red Dingo

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9 hours ago, Red Dingo said:

People are always misplacing their Artifacts of Doom in a Post-Apocalyptic Aftermath. It's basic epic narrative 101. If the Crusaders had any sense, they'd have tossed the Loptuous Tome into the middle of the ocean after taking out the last Galle.

From my impression of the story, those who seem to have the best idea about how holy blood works are those in the Loptyr sect. Perhaps this impression is only rooted in the fact that the only group engaged in Holy Blood eugenics, for lack of a better term, is the Loptyr sect. Even the descendants of St. Maira seem to only vaguely be aware that the propagation of their line has the risk of calamity. Granted, it would be rather on the nose to say "well if you engage in incest (to an unknown degree) the end result may be a high enough concentration of unholy blood which will serve as a vessel for the resurrection of Loptyr!" Instead it's, "calamity will befall the world if you have kids!" Which is rather vague, to say the least.

So, my impression was that the Loptyr sect perhaps preserved certain knowledge from the time of the original empire at locations such as their lair in the Yied Desert from those devotees whom the crusaders were not able to fully wipe out. That could easily have included the tome itself. It is an assumption (albeit a fair one) that the Crusaders recovered the tome when the slew Loptyr the first time around. They also might not have. If we're talking about story tropes, that's a frequent one, too. The ancient heroes slay evil but the MacGuffin artifact slips through their grasp and through the work of loyal servants of evil, it bides its time until rising again. 

So, long story short, I think that the Loptyr sect had held onto the tome since the time of the original empire and it passed from leader to leader of the sect as a sort of unholy Bible until it came into Manfroy's hands with the only missing piece being the major unholy blood.  

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This is an interesting topic. I think that the Loptrians work in long-term. Manfroy himself seemed to be willing to wait the 30 years or so to produce Julius. His assassination might throw a curveball but even in a worst case scenario where Loptous gets hidden away, I think the Loptrians would still find a way to hang on and devise a new plan to get Loptous in the hands of Julius or his descendants. As a result I think Arvis or whoever killed Manfroy would have to lead a campaign to suppress the Loptrians in some fashion, or at least actually control them instead of foolishly thinking that they wouldn't be able to do something really bad.

As far as what would happen if Seliph/Leif still tried to rebel without Loptous in power, I very much do not think they would be the bad guys. Keep in mind that in countries outside of Grannvale, Arvis had deposed the rightful rulers and put despots like Dannan, Bloom, and Hilda in control. In countries like Isaach and Leonster, the picture wasn't rosy before Julius took power; there were abuses committed against the population, and the villagers are really happy to see Seliph overthrow the Grannvalians not just because of Loptous but because they don't want to be a colony of Grannvale. Perhaps Grannvale itself would be more split and they'd be less willing to welcome Seliph, but outside of Grannvale the people would probably still support him. 

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On 4/21/2022 at 12:34 PM, Jotari said:

By plot hole I don't so much mean an irreconcilable flaw in the narrative, I mean an unexplained detail that is kind of important.

Oh okay. I think I just have a higher threshold for what constitutes a "plot hole". Like, if the narrative established that the Book of Loptyr had previously been destroyed, but then Manfroy inexplicably had it and gave it to Julius, then I'd call it a plot hole.

23 hours ago, Red Dingo said:

People are always misplacing their Artifacts of Doom in a Post-Apocalyptic Aftermath. It's basic epic narrative 101. If the Crusaders had any sense, they'd have tossed the Loptuous Tome into the middle of the ocean after taking out the last Galle.

Only for it to wash back up on Jugdral's shore right around the time of Julius' birth.

14 hours ago, Cossack>Cavalier said:

So, my impression was that the Loptyr sect perhaps preserved certain knowledge from the time of the original empire at locations such as their lair in the Yied Desert from those devotees whom the crusaders were not able to fully wipe out. That could easily have included the tome itself. It is an assumption (albeit a fair one) that the Crusaders recovered the tome when the slew Loptyr the first time around. They also might not have. If we're talking about story tropes, that's a frequent one, too. The ancient heroes slay evil but the MacGuffin artifact slips through their grasp and through the work of loyal servants of evil, it bides its time until rising again. 

Perhaps the Crusaders viewed the Book of Loptyr as a cursed artifact, and feared that trying to destroy it, or even just touching it, would have unleashed Loptyr back into the world? In which case, they may have just left it be, or else buried it or stowed it away somewhere private.

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2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Only for it to wash back up on Jugdral's shore right around the time of Julius' birth.

Then put it in a weighted led lined chest.

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3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Perhaps the Crusaders viewed the Book of Loptyr as a cursed artifact, and feared that trying to destroy it, or even just touching it, would have unleashed Loptyr back into the world? In which case, they may have just left it be, or else buried it or stowed it away somewhere private.

Perhaps. I was actually just playing Chapter 7 today and read the conversation Seliph had with Lewyn/Forseti. The latter did state that the elements of the cult hiding in Yied were not simply cultists but direct remnants of the Loptyr Empire. When the Empire fell loyalists hunkered down, underground literally and figuratively, in enclaves. It does stand to reason that they might have spirited away artifacts and knowledge. 

 

8 hours ago, Skelezomperman said:

This is an interesting topic. I think that the Loptrians work in long-term. Manfroy himself seemed to be willing to wait the 30 years or so to produce Julius. His assassination might throw a curveball but even in a worst case scenario where Loptous gets hidden away, I think the Loptrians would still find a way to hang on and devise a new plan to get Loptous in the hands of Julius or his descendants. As a result I think Arvis or whoever killed Manfroy would have to lead a campaign to suppress the Loptrians in some fashion, or at least actually control them instead of foolishly thinking that they wouldn't be able to do something really bad.

The Loptyr sect seems to be rather diversified with hands in lots of pots so to speak. I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see that they operated in cells, not unlike modern terrorists, so that if one cell is outed and burned at the stake they can't give up all their compatriots. Losing Manfroy would no doubt be bad, but with the cultists always being hunted to one degree or another since the fall of the Loptyr Empire, I can't imagine it wouldn't have happened before that a high ranking member/leader of the cult was found and executed before. 

 

14 minutes ago, Red Dingo said:

Then put it in a weighted led lined chest.

I think it's hard to apply purely material logic to things like this. It's like suggesting that Isildur should have simply tossed the One Ring into the middle of the ocean halfway between Middle-Earth and Valinor and everything would have been just fine. When you're dealing with myth and magic and evil artifacts that have a will of their own, it's not easy. You'll end up with a sea quake that breaks the box, a fish swallows the book, and a Loptyr sect fisherman just happens to pluck that fish from the ocean. It's a little silly to put it that way, but I think that's an inherent part of the logic of universes like Jugdral. Consider Deidre's premonition that if she were separated from Sigurd harm would come to her. Or the odds behind Cigyun giving birth to children, one from a scion of Naga and the other a scion of Loptyr? And then for those two children to meet and have a child themselves? Indeed, the Loptyr sect on got involved in that very last step (so far as we know) in bringing Arvis and Deidre together. The rest was seemingly Cigyun on her own. Which to me speaks to fate and divine intervention.

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4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Oh okay. I think I just have a higher threshold for what constitutes a "plot hole". Like, if the narrative established that the Book of Loptyr had previously been destroyed, but then Manfroy inexplicably had it and gave it to Julius, then I'd call it a plot hole.

It's less about threshold and more about type.

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On 4/22/2022 at 4:37 PM, Cossack>Cavalier said:

I think it's hard to apply purely material logic to things like this. It's like suggesting that Isildur should have simply tossed the One Ring into the middle of the ocean halfway between Middle-Earth and Valinor and everything would have been just fine. When you're dealing with myth and magic and evil artifacts that have a will of their own, it's not easy. You'll end up with a sea quake that breaks the box, a fish swallows the book, and a Loptyr sect fisherman just happens to pluck that fish from the ocean. It's a little silly to put it that way, but I think that's an inherent part of the logic of universes like Jugdral. Consider Deidre's premonition that if she were separated from Sigurd harm would come to her. Or the odds behind Cigyun giving birth to children, one from a scion of Naga and the other a scion of Loptyr? And then for those two children to meet and have a child themselves? Indeed, the Loptyr sect on got involved in that very last step (so far as we know) in bringing Arvis and Deidre together. The rest was seemingly Cigyun on her own. Which to me speaks to fate and divine intervention.

That really ticks me off for some reason.

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2 hours ago, Red Dingo said:

That really ticks me off for some reason.

That's fair. If it helps, a decent explanation is that part of what it means for divinity to be divine is that it can manipulate the causality or the material world. It's not simply tossing big fireballs by the ability to alter the nature of reality. Console commands for the universe, if you will. 

Or, that the sort of truth an author of a more mythical story is trying to tell isn't a materialistic truth but rather an ethical or poetic truth. No one would bother to tell a story where Manfroy tripped and fell on the way to bringing the book to Julius, breaking his own neck in the process. Or one where Arvis was shooting blanks and the whole plan of the Loptyr cult was foiled by the lack of the S-ranked Tome of Viagra. Details like that get in the way of events unfolding so that the children of Deidre, Sigurd, and Arvis would kill eachother, replaying the original Holy War. That's why I think Seliph also had to recapture Darna in Chapter 7 right after the Yied shrine which served as a lair for the Loptyr cult. The player is supposed to see it on the map/capture it and think, "Wow, Darna. I know that place. It's the miracle of Darna all over again. By golly, it's another Holy War!" 

But, again, I understand that sort of thing being annoying. Plot contrivances are what they are.

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That's something ironic to state when Naga, who was leagues above Loptous, denies being divinity.

Well, I'm sure there'd be people who would. After all, it's all fiction in the end, and as that phrase goes: "Reality can be whatever I want". If anything, it's the author who has the console commands, not the characters.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

That's something ironic to state when Naga, who was leagues above Loptous, denies being divinity.

Well, I'm sure there'd be people who would. After all, it's all fiction in the end, and as that phrase goes: "Reality can be whatever I want". If anything, it's the author who has the console commands, not the characters.

I don't think there's anything to suggest Naga is leagues above Loptous. The only real suggestion is that the Naga tome is specifically tailored to beat the Loptyr tome, but even then Naga gave the humans a bunch of holy weapons from other dragons to back Heim up. In truth we have no idea how Loptyr's body ranked against Naga's.

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Just now, Jotari said:

I don't think there's anything to suggest Naga is leagues above Loptous. The only real suggestion is that the Naga tome is specifically tailored to beat the Loptyr tome, but even then Naga gave the humans a bunch of holy weapons from other dragons to back Heim up. In truth we have no idea how Loptyr's body ranked against Naga's.

Because Loptous was only an Earth Dragon, same as Medeus, and it's specifically stated the Divine or Naga Tribe was the strongest of the Dragon tribes, and Naga was the strongest of them all. So they rank over the Earth Tribe.

It's not tailored, it's just the nature that Divine Dragons are effective against any other tribe. As seen by Falchion, which was part of Naga herself. Which is seen how the Lopous echo, now a shadow dragon like Medeus' second resurrection, can mitigate the blows of the other Holy Weapons sans the Naga Tome. Because, while not confirmed nor denied, we only know Naga was the only Divine that went to Jugdral. We know their numbers were decimated anyway, as this was after the Divine-Earth Dragon War.

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2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Because Loptous was only an Earth Dragon, same as Medeus, and it's specifically stated the Divine or Naga Tribe was the strongest of the Dragon tribes, and Naga was the strongest of them all. So they rank over the Earth Tribe.

Loptous was a Shadow Dragon, judging by the appearance of his tome. Which we know fuck all about, but we can gather they're stronger than a typical Earth Dragon, so could have comparable power to a Divine Dragon. Divine Dragons also aren't that much more powerful than Earth Dragons, if it were a no question case of superiority, then Divine Dragons wouldn't have been so heavily wrecked by the war. By the time the dust settled there were more Earth Dragons alive than Divine Dragons, they'd just gone mad from degeneration.

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It's not tailored, it's just the nature that Divine Dragons are effective against any other tribe.

It is tailored though. Despite how the effect has been translated into other entires in the series, Naga's tome doesn't deal effective damage to Loptous, it just negates his damage reduction skill (and provides insane stat buffs). 

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

As seen by Falchion, which was part of Naga herself. Which is seen how the Lopous echo, now a shadow dragon like Medeus' second resurrection, can mitigate the blows of the other Holy Weapons sans the Naga Tome.

I don't know what you mean by this.

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Because, while not confirmed nor denied, we only know Naga was the only Divine that went to Jugdral. We know their numbers were decimated anyway, as this was after the Divine-Earth Dragon War.

Gotoh or Xane could have been there. We don't know when they gave up their dragon stones.

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55 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Loptous was a Shadow Dragon, judging by the appearance of his tome. Which we know fuck all about, but we can gather they're stronger than a typical Earth Dragon, so could have comparable power to a Divine Dragon. Divine Dragons also aren't that much more powerful than Earth Dragons, if it were a no question case of superiority, then Divine Dragons wouldn't have been so heavily wrecked by the war. By the time the dust settled there were more Earth Dragons alive than Divine Dragons, they'd just gone mad from degeneration.

From the supplemental material:

Q: What is the relationship between Loputousu and Narga?

A: The ancient dragon tribes possessed terrifying power and established a glorious civilisation, but they were currently facing extinction and it seemed impossible to avoid this fate. The Divine Dragon King, Narga, suggested to the other dragon tribes the idea of passing on the new age to the humans. However, the Earth Dragon tribe, who considered humans to be common insects, openly opposed the Dragon King’s decision and launched an attack with the aim to exterminate the humans. To prevent this move, Narga started a great war, recorded in the holy scriptures of Akaneia as the “Guardian God Narga’s War”. In Genealogy of the Holy War, the ambitious Bishop Galle believed the legend that “drinking the blood of the ancient dragons grants one tremendous power and eternal life” and traveled around the world, finally arriving at the continent of Akaneia. He met with one of the Earth Dragons, Loputousu, who allowed him to form a blood pact.

Well, we know at least one thing: Shadow Dragons aren't born. Whenever we are told about the Dragon Tribes, Shadow tends to be absent. As it is, we only have the one Earth Dragon that became a Shadow Dragon after his second resurrection (and since it was overseen/done by Gharnef, then we know he did something to make Medeus return as a Shadow Dragon), and the other Earth Dragon (but not himself, this is an important detail to not overlook) whose overpowering hatred and resentment towards humans was contained inside a magic tome, said hatred and resentment manifesting as a Shadow Dragon.

So yes, they are more powerful than Earth... but the fact the power of Naga can still take them down or bypass their defenses show she is still stronger.

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It is tailored though. Despite how the effect has been translated into other entires in the series, Naga's tome doesn't deal effective damage to Loptous, it just negates his damage reduction skill (and provides insane stat buffs). 

If we want to get technical, LoptousEcho!Julius is a human body, not a dragon's. But yeah, for this one case, it is different.

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I don't know what you mean by this.

Gotoh or Xane could have been there. We don't know when they gave up their dragon stones.

That the other Holy Weapons aren't effective because they don't come from Divine Dragons. At least, that'd be my guess.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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