So...let's talk tiers.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Precisely the reason why a wifi team is best made in normal mode.

[Sylvan]

Precisely the reason why a wifi team is best made in normal mode.

If you want a wi-fi team, just use the arena. But yes, enough talk of wifi.

[Rodykitty]

Not only does the Prologue boost your EXP, but on Normal mode, the arena is supposively easier to abuse than on the harder modes (I have yet to test this.)

Plus, if you're making a file to make a WiFi team with, there really isn't any reason to use the Hard modes, unless you don't feel like going through the Prologue.

Oh, and the Prologue gets you Frey. Why *wouldn't* you want Frey on WiFi? (Besides legitimate reasons, of course).

Edited December 19, 2008 by FE3 Player

[Dat Nick]

Chainy is that good?

Two Zagaros running around. How is he NOT that good?

Doga is that bad?

...3 base spd, 20% str growth. You tell me. He's one of the few characters whose offense fails so much he's not one rounding on NM for 75% of the game.

Raddy is that bad?

Um, yes? Horrid bases, locked at E rank swords at jointime, and just below average endgame. How is he NOT that bad? He's lucky not to be lower.

Norne is that bad?

...How isn't she?

Fail strength. Fail durability. Fail move. Fail class. Yes, you CAN reclass her, but her stats suck so bad it's not going to help.

Marth is better that Oguma?

Two words: Level lead. All Marth needs is one level to tie Oguma in strength, two to tie HP, and he's already winning defense. And he's going to get more than two levels by the time Oguma shows up.

Why is Bord (saji) below Samson? Bord makes a good hero, and his crit rate is extreme as a berserker, although his speed sucks.

Exactly. His speed sucks. If your're not doubling NM enemies, houston, we have a problem.

Also, consider this. Why should we make Bord a hero? Why not somebody who actually makes a GOOD hero? Daros, who is the better merc for all intents and purposes comes to mind immediatly. Sedgar/Wolf as well. Barst might even consider it. Why should a mediocre unit get the hero slot when it could go to somebody much better?

No one except pre-promotes should be below Samson. I had one look at his averages, I shuddered, This guy only *just* beats Jagen. And you get him frikkin late in the game.

Inded. Except Samson can at least double, a word Bord doesn't understand. Samson's a bad unit, so you have to suck pretty bad to be worse than him.

EDIT EDIT: minerva above shiida? no way.

Yes way. Minerva's bases>Shiida at 20/0, and lol at her being 20/0 by then. It goes on to Endgame even, with 20 Minerva only losing to 20/15 Shiida in a few points of HP and 4 AS, and Minerva still doubles most everything. Never mind that Minerva has a massive level lead on her and Shiida promotes late since there's no way in hell her promotion takes priority over Merric/Abel/Kain/Barst/BlahblahblahBLADEROLL. Minerva also has a Catria and Jake (...why?) support, for all it's worth. And please, DON'T make me get into another discussion about the wing spear. Getting pretty tired of spelling it out for you kids.

Oh, and here's something for you kids to chew on. Merc>Berserker Barts. Winds up with defense on par with the cavs, as well as more HP than them, plus WTA more often. Not to mention that cool avoid he gets, and the Ogma support if you're using him. Pratically untouchable, and he can take a few touches before he dies. No way he's above them on NM since prolouge, but on H5 it's very possible he just might go above the cavs.

Check it. Sweet, eh? Cord's not the only one who can pull off the dual class thing. Must run in the family. ....Why didn't Bord get it?

Edited December 19, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Sylvan]

Exactly. His speed sucks. If your're not doubling NM enemies, houston, we have a problem.

Also, consider this. Why should we make Bord a hero? Why not somebody who actually makes a GOOD hero? Daros, who is the better merc for all intents and purposes comes to mind immediatly. Sedgar/Wolf as well. Barst might even consider it. Why should a mediocre unit get the hero slot when it could go to somebody much better?

Because the point was, he is ranked lower than Samson. I'm comparing to him. Bord owns Samson. I'm not arguing Bord should be higher than Sedgar or Wolf.

Inded. Except Samson can at least double, a word Bord doesn't understand. Samson's a bad unit, so you have to suck pretty bad to be worse than him

Again, compare Bord and samson, Bord wins out. . .Even in speed. Bord has massively better stats all round.

Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res

Bord's averages:

20 48.1 21.9 1.0 29.7 19.3 13.9 14.5 3.0

Samson's averages:

20 31.0 13.5 1.0 16.5 18.5 12.5 10.5 3.0

It's pretty clear who is better. No matter which class you compare them in, bord wins. Hell, Jegan almost beats Samson. And Jegan is useful when you get him.

Yes way. Minerva's bases>Shiida at 20/0, and lol at her being 20/0 by then. It goes on to Endgame even, with 20 Minerva only losing to 20/15 Shiida in a few points of HP and 4 AS, and Minerva still doubles most everything. Never mind that Minerva has a massive level lead on her and Shiida promotes late since there's no way in hell her promotion takes priority over Merric/Abel/Kain/Barst/BlahblahblahBLADEROLL. Minerva also has a Catria and Jake (...why?) support, for all it's worth.

Minerva Doubles? What kind of Godly Minerva do you have? She can't double against a General without being RNG screwed. Her speed is Comparable to Bord when you get her. Even unpromoted, Shiida still is better. Shiida at least can max stats. Minvera? Max? Ha!

HP--Str--Mag--Skl--Spd--Lck--Def--Res

Shiida: (lvl 20, unpromted)

23.6--7.8--1.0--17.3--20.0--19.9--8.9--6.0

Minerva: (lvl 1)

24.0--9.0--0.0--6.0--12.0--6.0--12.0--3.0

I can't see the "Minerva's bases>Shiida at 20/0". . . .

EDIT: fixed typos.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Sylvan

[Dat Nick]

Because the point was, he is ranked lower than Samson. I'm comparing to him. Bord owns Samson. I'm not arguing Bord should be higher than Sedgar or Wolf.

No, he isn't. Bord needs tons of babying and still won't double. Samson sucks, but at least he doubles off the bat.

Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res

Bord's averages:

20 48.1 21.9 1.0 29.7 19.3 13.9 14.5 3.0

Samson's averages:

20 31.0 13.5 1.0 16.5 18.5 12.5 10.5 3.0

It's pretty clear who is better. No matter which class you compare them in, bord wins. Hell, Jegan almost beats Samson. And Jegan is useful when you get him.

Please don't look at just max level averages. Factor in something called "utility". Bord has a negative effect on the team because he will NEVER hit lvl 20 [20/15. If even that.] and for that, he will have a very hard time doubling. Him having low priority on promotion isn't helping.

...And where are you getting 19 spd from? Hero? I just told you. Too many people want that class to warrant making Bord one. Barst, Wolf, Sedgar, even Daros all make better mercs. Why should Bord take priority before any of them?

Minerva Doubles? What kind of Godly Minerva do you have? She can't double against a General without being RNG screwed. Her speed is Comparable to Bord when you get her.

lawl no. Bord needs to be what, lvl 18 or something to even compare? wait, even at 20/20 he only ties. lawl. Oh, and guess who's winning spd Endgame, out of the two? Even if we favor Bord by giving Merc to him? That's right, Minerva. 19 spd vs 18 spd. And that lead actually matters since a few enemies are pushing it to 15 AS. That's hilarious.

Minerva Doubles? What kind of Godly Minerva do you have? She can't double against a General without being RNG screwed. Her speed is Comparable to Bord when you get her. Even unpromoted, Shiida still is better. Shiida at least can max stats. Minvera? Max? Ha!

What? Are you keeping Minerva at level 1 the whole game or something? Of course she's going to double. 19 AS is plenty to double most anything. Also, who cares if Shiida maxes stats? It's only ever going to make a difference on Manaketes since Minerva doubles everything else. And hell, she can probably one shot said manaketes with a dragonpike.

HP--Str--Mag--Skl--Spd--Lck--Def--Res

Shiida: (lvl 20, unpromted)

23.6--7.8--1.0--17.3--20.0--19.9--8.9--6.0

Minerva: (lvl 1)

24.0--9.0--0.0--6.0--12.0--6.0--12.0--3.0

I can't see the "Minerva's bases>Shiida at 20/0". . . .

What do you mean, you can't? Higher str/def, still doubling everything on the map on that timeframe. I fail to see how Shiida's better. Please don't use stats as generalizations. If your spd is good enough to double while you're still winning str/def, then you're better.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Mekkah]

Him having low priority on promotion isn't helping.

There's no such thing. He has equal rights to a promotion items as everyone else, since he approves as much from a promotion as everyone else.

...And where are you getting 19 spd from? Hero? I just told you. Too many people want that class to warrant making Bord one. Barst, Wolf, Sedgar, even Daros all make better mercs. Why should Bord take priority before any of them?

Same deal here. Why would others take priority for Hero? This is like saying Ward should not get a Dieck support because Clarine and Rutger are better units.

[Dat Nick]

There's no such thing. He has equal rights to a promotion items as everyone else, since he approves as much from a promotion as everyone else.

Wrong. Him taking a promotion early means Abel/Cain/Freyr/Barts can't promote a few chapters later. Don't even pretend this doesn't matter. When everybody is eating up the same promotion item, priority matters.

Same deal here. Why would others take priority for Hero? This is like saying Ward should not get a Dieck support because Clarine and Rutger are better units.

Ward actually has a case for it since his support is much faster than Clarine/Dieck and Fire>Darkness plus he gets a few extra chapters, so really, really bad example.

Here's a better example. Merric (Wind), can support with Ogma (Ice), Barst (Thunder), Marth (Anima), and Catria (Fire). So, why shouldn't Merric support with Ogma? Here's why. Not only does Ogma have a few extra turns to get points with Barst and Marth, they match his affinity better and are faster as well. What gives Merric the right to Ogma's support? Answer: He has no right. Giving him the support does nothing but **** everything up. Now, Catria, who has quite a fast speed and matches his affinity almost perfectly, matches Merric perfectly. So he gets Catria.

Equality isn't factored in when it ****s something else up. It's essentially the same as favoring that paticular unit [stat boosters, favoritism in battles, the whole shebang] why should promotion priority and Reclassing be any diffrent? If Bord didn't need to be a merc to be good, maybe you'd have a case. As it is, with all the other people who want that class, all of who are completely superior to him? Case closed.

[Mekkah]

Wrong. Him taking a promotion early means Abel/Cain/Freyr/Barts can't promote a few chapters later. Don't even pretend this doesn't matter. When everybody is eating up the same promotion item, priority matters.

But there is no priority.

Abel takes a promo item. No one else can take it.

Barts takes a promo item. No one else can take it.

It's the same effect for everyone else. You'd have a case if Abel improved more by promoting (but even then, it's a slight one).

Ward actually has a case for it since his support is much faster than Clarine/Dieck and Fire>Darkness plus he gets a few extra chapters, so really, really bad example.

You just showed that what gets you more out of something is more likely to get a support or whatever than if you get less out of something. If you assume the supports take equally long to make and give the same bonuses, is there any reason to deny Ward the support over Rutger or Clarine? No.

Equality isn't factored in when it ****s something else up.

Except everyone fucks this "something else" up equally, so there is no reason to penalize Barts more for it than others. You can't assume Barts becomes a Hero automatically, but you can't assume everyone else takes priority over him either.

[Clonez]

When will the NM and HM5 lists get updated?

[Dat Nick]

But there is no priority.

Abel takes a promo item. No one else can take it.

Barts takes a promo item. No one else can take it.

...Right over the noggin, eh?

Promoting inferior units first screws up your team. Since everybody runs on the same promotion item, obviously priority exists. The FE6 tier on GFAQS assumes stuff like Rutger getting the first crest, Ellen getting the first ring, want to explain to me how this is any different?

Let's see, what happens if I give Gordin the first seal? Then Merric doesn't get the ability to attack for a few more chapters, and Gordin still sucks hardcore. That didn't help me, it slowed me down, and wasted the first seal. See why priority matters?

You just showed that what gets you more out of something is more likely to get a support or whatever than if you get less out of something. If you assume the supports take equally long to make and give the same bonuses, is there any reason to deny Ward the support over Rutger or Clarine? No.

...Did I not just say that Ward has a very viable case for the support? And Ward has BETTER bonuses than Rutger AND has more time to make it, so if for some reason you're playing Ward, he's getting the support over Rutger.

Except everyone fucks this "something else" up equally,

Except that a good portion of reclasses, the rest of the team doesn't care about. Merc is probably the only exception to this rule. If you swap Merric to curate...who's going to care? Also, Barst/Sedgar/Wolf all want a hurt class, so yes, Bord DOES **** them over. If he didn't **** them over, and Barst/Daros/wtfe could still be mercs? Then it wouldn't matter. But he DOES **** them over, so it DOES matter.

You never answered my question, btw. How is an unfavorable support/reclass any diffrent from stat boosters? Answer: It's not. It's a diffrent form of favoritism, but favoritism nonetheless. If it bones over somebody else on the team without a good reason [see: Merric getting the first seal], it's favoritism.

Look. I swap Bord into Merc. This means I can't use Merc Daros, a better unit in every way imaginable, and Wolf and Sedgar have to suck it up and deal with General. And hell, unless you have another armor lying around, one of them can't even be general, so they have to deal with a class that sucks with them. By swapping Bord to mercenary, I am preventing my team from being as good as it could be, not because I'm using him, but because he's making several members weaker as well. All for a unit who is below average in stats. So, he hurts more than he helps. ...Isn't this part of what makes a bad character a bad character?

You can't assume Barts becomes a Hero automatically, but you can't assume everyone else takes priority over him either.

If we could have infinite Merc slots? Yes, we could. As the way the current system is? ....No.

When will the NM and HM5 lists get updated?

When there's a reason to.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[dondon151]

This "priority" is simply a matter of who rams level 20 first, since better units hit level 20 faster than worse units ?_? I mean, saying that Bord doesn't have a right to a promotion item or to the Hero class is like saying that Bord sucks because he won't be used.

[thunderstrife]

This "priority" is simply a matter of who rams level 20 first, since better units hit level 20 faster than worse units ?_? I mean, saying that Bord doesn't have a right to a promotion item or to the Hero class is like saying that Bord sucks because he won't be used.

Saji (Bord... ugh) won't hit 20 first unless you BABY HIM, which is applying favoritism. He won't reach 20 without babying because he can't double when you get him, so to level up he's forced to take final blows for everyone, kills that could be made more efficiently with better units.

If this is still going over your head, then it's really just better than you stop trying to argue something that has been explained numerous times now. If you want to use Saji, go for it, but he's a bad unit with very little reason to use him.

[Dat Nick]

Of course he has the right to a promotion item if he used. But there's no way he gets it before Abel/Cain/Barst/etc.

And why should he have the right to the hero class? All it winds up doing is boning over several other characters. If it did nothing but help Bord? It would be a viable option. It isn't like using, say, Bartre, where the only way that hurts your team is the fact that Bartre is on it. Bord himself is a mediocre unit even AS hero and he screws over other units.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Sylvan]

It doesn't matter if you consider if you favor Bord or not. All the counter-arugments about cain, abel, who is or isn't a hero, who promote DO NOT MATTER.

I brought it up as an argument about the placements on the LOWER end of the list. Thus, comparisons need to be made between LOWER characters.

Saying "Oh, but Bord sucks because you aren't using him" is IRRELEVANT. Samson is a hero. So compare Bord as a hero.

Ok fine, do it the other way, Make Samson a warrior, then compare? Now does it makes sense?

Samson, as a warrior, has some speed. But poop strength. He can't harm a fly if you gave him a fly swat. Not to mention basically 1 hit he will die because of insanely low health. Even if they double against Saji, he will still come off better simply because he has more than double health.

What do you mean, you can't? Higher str/def, still doubling everything on the map on that timeframe. I fail to see how Shiida's better. Please don't use stats as generalizations. If your spd is good enough to double while you're still winning str/def, then you're better.

Her speed is not good enough to double. She can only double for one maybe 2 missions. I used her in three playthroughs, and this was the case in each one. I don't think I have that bad luck. I'm serious when I compare to a general. At almost any level, minerva can't double. Without it, her minor str boost is unimportant, her slightly increased def means nothing. And on top of that she can't use the wing spear, which is effective against kinghts, i.e. the only units minerva's extra str is actually useful. Shiida can double against swordmasters up till basically the last few missions. Which is far more useful that someone who struggles to double against any promoted unit at all.

[Dat Nick]

It doesn't matter if you consider if you favor Bord or not. All the counter-arugments about cain, abel, who is or isn't a hero, who promote DO NOT MATTER.

Yes, it DOES matter. If I promote Bord, I can't promote Cain, Barst, or any other unit that's way better than Bord.

Saying "Oh, but Bord sucks because you aren't using him" is IRRELEVANT.

What? I didn't say that. I said Bord sucks even IF you're using him.

So compare Bord as a hero.

Um...what? Where the HELL does this logic come into play?

Samson, as a warrior, has some speed. But poop strength. He can't harm a fly if you gave him a fly swat.

So give him a silver. He does fine. Don't even call this favoritism, you've got so much spare gold to toss around it's not funny.

Not to mention basically 1 hit he will die because of insanely low health.

He's just barely getting two shotted. Give him a couple levels and he makes it three.

Her speed is not good enough to double.

Oh, so I guess Saji must REALLY suck then, because he's even slower than Minerva, even if he gets Merc for every single level up for some bizzare reason, lawl.

No, Minerva's speed IS good enough to double. Please, PLEASE pull your head out of your rump and realize this. 19 AS doubles EVERYTHING that isn't a mamkute or swordmaster [and those are only in C24x] endgame. Snipers and Heroes in C24 only have 15 AS. That's...enough to get doubled by Minerva! Just because your speed isn't maxed or above 20 does NOT mean you will not double.

Shiida can double against swordmasters up till basically the last few missions.

Oh wow, she can one round an enemy unit who only exists in one chapter, in a pair of two, that has epicly fail stats anyway that Jeigan could probably take out. How DID I not see this?

Oh, and for the record, no, she won't double them. They have 20 AS. She caps out at 23. Unless you're arguing for Falco, in which case Minerva REALLY kills her in stats, all so she could double a single fail enemy unit that only exists for one chapter, in a pair of two.

I don't think I have that bad luck.

Did she have 19 AS by level 20? If not? Then you do.

I'm serious when I compare to a general.

I'm dead serious when I say Linde maxed out all her stats, naturally, including defense. See, I can spout off lies, too. I'm almost positive when I say Minerva STARTS with enough speed to double the generals in C20. ...On Hard 5. I'll check right now.

....9 AS. No, she's 1 AS short. In goddamn Hard 5. Now I KNOW you're lying.

Wait, what? Shiida can use Wing Spear? Minerva can use Hammer....which does the exact same thing since lolVyland has no trouble one rounding cavs at all.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Sylvan]

Before a flame war starts out:

Yes, it DOES matter. If I promote Bord, I can't promote Cain, Barst, or any other unit that's way better than Bord.

What? I didn't say that. I said Bord sucks even IF you're using him

Um...what? Where the HELL does this logic come into play?

These three comments show you did not understand what I was trying to say at all. Re-read. Before I try and re-write.

So give him a silver. He does fine. Don't even call this favoritism, you've got so much spare gold to toss around it's not funny.

How will that make him even slightly more useful that Bord? His speed as a warrior is only 2 above bord. For all levels you can compare. He won't hit twice. You need at least 4 more speed to do that. Bord with a silver weapon will do 10 more damage than Samson with a silver one. In nearly every scenario, bord wins out. About the only time Samson beats bord, is if you compare a lvl 10 Samson to a lvl 10 bord. And bord is a fighter. Even then, Bord still has higher HP and Str. That's right, unpromoted.

Oh, so I guess Saji must REALLY suck then, because he's even slower than Minerva, even if he gets Merc for every single level up for some bizzare reason, lawl.

Yup. Never argued Saji should be above Minerva. Just that Samson should be below Saji.

It's like this, your countering every argument I make with the order of the bottom of the list, with someone higher placed. It makes no sense to do so. because any player using the list, and following you line of though there should be two tiers, the top 15 then everyone else. because since the top 15 are better you have no need to use everyone else.

No, Minerva's speed IS good enough to double. Please, PLEASE pull your head out of your rump and realize this. 19 AS doubles EVERYTHING that isn't a mamkute or swordmaster [and those are only in C24x] endgame. Snipers and Heroes in C24 only have 15 AS. That's...enough to get doubled by Minerva! Just because your speed isn't maxed or above 20 does NOT mean you will not double.

Thanks for the flame I'll take that. Sinpers appear in the mission you get minerva. Try doubling them with minverva. Minerva can only double weak units (Unpromoted). Which is pointless. Again, I'm only comparing minerva to shiida. Shiida, at any level beyond 16 (unpromoted) can double any unit in the game more or less. Minerva can only double some units.

Minerva can use a hammer? umm yay? Shiida can to. How is that an advantage? Throw minerva against a paladin with a sword. She's dead. There are plenty of them around. Minerva has her axe? Again, Shiida can use it. So no big deal there.

Anyway, I'm leaving this discussion. I'm being flamed too much to bother sinking down to this kind of discussion. If you don't want to listen to what I have to say, that's fine. But don't go saying I have my head shoved up my ass. That just makes you a jerk and adds nothing intelligent to the discussion.

[Dat Nick]

These three comments show you did not understand what I was trying to say at all. Re-read. Before I try and re-write.

Your fault for bringing Cain and Abel out of nowhere.

And yes, who is and who isn't a Hero DOES matter for Bord. For one, it means you can't use Merc Barst or Daros, both of whom are superior to him in every way imaginable. If he didn't block out either of those possibilities, he'd be golden, but it's a huge strike against him as he is totally blocking out superior members from the team if he's not going to be a total failure.

How will that make him even slightly more useful that Bord? His speed as a warrior is only 2 above bord.

...What? Who the hell said ANYTHING about Warrior samson?

Bord with a silver weapon will do 10 more damage than Samson with a silver one.

Who cares when Samson is still one rounding most everything on the map?

It's like this, your countering every argument I make with the order of the bottom of the list, with someone higher placed.

No, I only bought up Daros/Barst/Wolf/Sedgar because having Bord on your team, and making him be of any use, screws all of them over, and for what? For an extremley mediocre unit.

Also, you bought up Bord vs Samson. So please don't sic "OMG UR SAYING CHAR A SUX CUZ CHAR B IZ BETTER BS LOL!" on me. You also bought up Shiida vs Minerva. So...I don't really see how I'm doing this, no.

because since the top 15 are better you have no need to use everyone else.

I don't recall ever stating this. And if I did, why do the tiers below up mid even exist at all?

"Thanks for the flame I'll take that."

Push me, and I'll do it. I just told you she had enough speed to double NM enemies. All you had to counter was "lol no". I'm going to get irritated if you push me. Brushing off what I said with no proof whatsoever is pushing me. And it seriously wasn't that severe.

"Sinpers appear in the mission you get minerva. Try doubling them with minverva."

...One sniper does. And he's going to be dead by the time Minerva joins.

Also, there's a whole slew of armor knights waiting to be killed, who will NOT be dead by the time Minerva joins. And the mercs in the very next chapter [she can't double, but she'll tink and kill them easily], and just about everything in C12x.

"Minerva can only double weak units (Unpromoted)."

Wow, did you totally ignore that H5 general or what? And since when were Heroes and Snipers "weak unpromoted units?"

Shiida, at any level beyond 16 (unpromoted) can double any unit in the game more or less.

She doubles very few what Minerva doesn't.

Minerva can only double some units

try most everything in the game?

Minerva can use a hammer? umm yay? Shiida can to. How is that an advantage?

Way to miss the point. Wing Spear rapes armors. Hammer rapes armors. So...Shiida really doesn't win at all.

Minerva can use a hammer? umm yay? Shiida can to. How is that an advantage?

Wow, how much BS are you full of? She's going to tink and one round that paladin back. I don't know HOW bad your Minervas turned out or how good you think NM enemies are, but please check averages and try again because this is quite possibly the most ridiculous claim I've ever heard.

I'm being flamed too much to bother sinking down to this kind of discussion.

One borderline degratory remark (which you totally earned, by the way: Thanks for totally ignoring everything I just said and just posted "lol no Minerva can't double cuz I sed so!") and you run away. Brilliant maturity.

If you don't want to listen to what I have to say, that's fine.

How am I not listening to what you have to say? I've proven that basically your whole argument is faulty, lacks proof, or is just plain made up on the spot.

But don't go saying I have my head shoved up my ass.

Then don't act like it. As in, don't just totally ignore what the other guy said and proceed to post the exact same thing he just countered.

That just makes you a jerk and adds nothing intelligent to the discussion.

And it just makes you Mr. Nice guy by totally ignoring what I say and giving no indication that you actually read any of my posts, doesn't it? What you did was FAR more rude than a little remark about your ignorance which you totally earned.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Lord Raven]

And yes, who is and who isn't a Hero DOES matter for Bord. For one, it means you can't use Merc Barst or Daros, both of whom are superior to him in every way imaginable

http://tempfess.superbusnet.com/forums/ind...st&p=321905

Read the rest of this page and the last post of this topic. Then learn why your point is or should be irrelevant in the judging of a tier list.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

Using Sothe doesn't cut me out from using Volke.

Using Bord DOES cut me out from several options who are just outright superior to him. Sothe doesn't screw over anybody else in PoR. Bord does if he wants to not fail, and the results just make him "average" instead of fail. It does more harm than it does good. Nobody on the rest of the team gives two ****s about Sothe as long as he's not getting in the way and killed too fast in the latergame chapters.

Seriously, how many times am I going to have to repeat this? At least argue against the point I'm actually making.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Lord Raven]

Using Bord DOES cut me out from several options who are just outright superior to him. Sothe doesn't screw over anybody else in PoR. Bord does if he wants to not fail.

Distributing EXP is along the same lines. Giving EXP to Oguma/Kain/Abel/Marth/whoever is screwing over other characters who want EXP by not letting them get EXP. FE tiers shouldn't give a damn about how outclassed they are; it's how they perform overall.

Twilkitri can argue what I'm trying to say a lot better.

It does more harm than it does good. Nobody on the rest of the team gives two ****s about Sothe as long as he's not getting in the way and killed too fast in the latergame chapters.

This is relevant to tier placement how?

Seriously, how many times am I going to have to repeat this? At least argue against the point I'm actually making.

I'm lazy, and it's tl;dr for now. Edited December 20, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Clonez]

This is a NM tier list, and Minerva is actually good. Just not in HM5.

And...Bord sucks. A unit that can't kill sucks.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Clonez

[Dat Nick]

Giving EXP to Oguma/Kain/Abel/Marth/whoever is screwing over other characters who want EXP by not letting them get EXP.

Wow, are you even reading? This doesn't have a damn thing to do with Bord being outclassed. It has everything to do with the fact that he's making other characters worse by forcing them out of a reclass other characters want and only producing mediocre results. And no, EXP is a totally diffrent subject because everybody has to be taking some of it, and nobody is getting any real babying out of it. Giving Bord that Reclass is pretty much favoring him, because it's screwing over four other people on your team.

I have no clue how the hell you got Sothe/Volke out of all this, let's use an example that's actually accurate.

On FE7, Karel is damn near the bottom of the list for forcing Harken out of your party and replacing him with his mediocre self. THIS IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. Just Karel's sheer presence is screwing your team over for the worse, not because he's a bad unit, but because he's blocked out a unit 8x superior to him. And Dart's a good example, too. For 50k, you get a unit with overkill atk/spd and crappy hit and durability. I'll take the 50k, thanks. And Farina. Well, those last two don't fit as well as Karel/Harken, but I'm sure you see what I'm getting at by now.

I'm lazy, and it's tl;dr for now.

So...you didn't read anything.

...You really should, you know? It can come in quite handy at times.

And if you're not going to address the fact that the issue is Bord screwing over everybody else who wants Merc, NOT that he's outclassed, please don't bother responding.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Lord Raven]

This doesn't have a damn thing to do with Bord being outclassed. It has everything to do with the fact that he's making other characters worse by forcing them out of a reclass other characters want and only producing mediocre results.

Other characters? It's one other character at best. You're making one character worse in order to make Bord average, which isn't even hindering the entire team as a whole. Why are you even arguing normal mode anyway? About 75 or 80% of the cast is usable there, and Bord is among them.

This still has nothing to do with much. Mercenary!Bord could easily hit somewhere in Upper or Lower Mid instead of bottom.

And the fact that he's outclassed in the Mercenary group proves my point. He's making better characters worse, which can be seen as a detriment because they're better under the same circumstances. It doesn't make Bord's performance any worse, which is exactly what I'm arguing. Which is what a half decent tier list is based on.

And no, EXP is a totally diffrent subject because everybody has to be taking some of it, and nobody is getting any real babying out of it. Giving Bord that Reclass is pretty much favoring him.

And EXP isn't relevant how? Giving anyone EXP is favoring them with that one kill, attack, or whatever. Allowing a unit to do anything is favoring of some sort, really; to how much an extent is up to the player. I would think that reclassing is almost as bad when it comes to favoring as giving EXP to a unit myself.

On FE7, Karel is damn near the bottom of the list for forcing Harken out of your party and replacing him with his mediocre self. THIS IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

Who's to say I agree with it? I actually don't. Who exactly is higher and lower than him? I don't feel like digging it up to look it up.

And Dart's a good example, too. For 50k, you get a unit with overkill atk/spd and crappy hit and durability. I'll take the 50k, thanks. And Farina. Well, those last two don't fit as well as Karel/Harken, but I'm sure you see what I'm getting at by now.

They're both extreme examples, though. 50K and 20K really do wonders for your funds rank, for the worse; Farina basically costs 40K considering how much you had to sell and how much you weren't able to spend. Even afterwards she's not doing that well. This is overly specialized and you're hurting your entire team as a result. With Bord, you're just hurting the quality of one character.

...You really should, you know? It can come in quite handy at times.

Yeah, I'm pretty sorry I don't dedicate my time to reading every post on an internet forum, especially to one I don't even play that often anymore. (I have played a couple runs of FE DS NM recently enough, though).

And if you're not going to address the fact that the issue is Bord screwing over everybody else who wants Merc, NOT that he's outclassed, please don't bother responding.

It's the same exact thing. Take out the others that want Merc and he instantly becomes the best and only choice, right? His performance still remains static.

I'm curious, why is Normal Mode being argued? Why not at least one of the middle Hard modes?

Edited December 20, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

Other characters? It's one other character at best.

No, it's everybody else who wants Merc.

You're making one character worse in order to make Bord average, which isn't even hindering the entire team as a whole.

Yes it is, because of the sheer fact that Bord makes somebody actually worth using, worse. I could replace him with just about any "average" unit there is, Barst could have his merc class, average character is just as good [if not better] as Merc Bord, everything's fine.

Why are you even arguing normal mode anyway?

You realize theres an H5 list too right?

Also, I'm arguing NM because it's the only way Freyr and Norne can be tiered.

And EXP isn't relevant how?

I said that it was a different subject. Not that it was relevant.

It doesn't make Bord's performance any worse, which is exactly what I'm arguing.

Oh, sure. Let's just pretend his negative effect on Wolf, Sedgar, Barst, and Daros doesn't exist at all. That's real accurate. I'm going to tell you now: We're not going to do that. It WILL be factored in, and it's why he currently is where he is. And I'm willing to reduce the punishment if I have a good reason. Right now, I don't have a good reason.

Who's to say I agree with it? I actually don't. Who exactly is higher and lower than him?

Below Wil IIRC.

Yeah, I'm pretty sorry I don't dedicate my time to reading every post on an internet forum.

I'm not asking you to. I'm asking you to have the decency to actually read what you're arguing against before you argue it. ...Thank you for doing that, this was starting to piss me off how I kept having to repeat it about 5000 tmes.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah