Draft tier list

[Psych]

Ilyana also gets enemy phase without Bowguns. And Bowguns aren't effected by his strength unlike Ilyana's magic. Typically, she should probably be close to Soren's level when she arrives, but he'll be higher by then. And her competition is much less competative thatn Rolf's competition.

[Paperblade]

Ilyana also gets enemy phase without Bowguns. And Bowguns aren't effected by his strength unlike Ilyana's magic. Typically, she should probably be close to Soren's level when she arrives, but he'll be higher by then. And her competition is much less competative thatn Rolf's competition.

Well, what I did was I'd have Rolf attack with Killer or a forge, then have Gatrie trade him. The problem was that the AI would still often attack Rolf since Shade is surprisingly ineffective.

Ilyana also has 1 less move and is fairly slow, but due to using like no units you can realistically throw robes and shit at her. She BEXPs well enough due to her HP/Str/Skl, although IIRC Speed is her lowest growth. =/

[Psych]

Well, Jill, Nephenee and Haar are drafted pretty quickly.

Assuming you want Lehran or something like that, Ike gets dibs on the Wing, but otherwise, she's probably getting at least one.

And yeah, the move and the 3-range Rolf gets upon promtion hurt her, but she's got access to Seige tomes which are a lot more effective and common compared to Balista. And Healing, even if it is low ranked. But there's always Discipline I suppose. >_>

Edited August 2, 2010 by psychout50

[Naglfar]

Right, but can you protect her? 20/4 by 3-2 sounds reasonable to me. At which point she has, BEXP and other resources notwithstanding, 30.05 HP with a 55% growth, 9.3 DEF with a 30% growth, and 44 avoid with a 100% growth. Assuming a robe and a shield that's still pretty bad, her HP is comparable now but her defence and avoid are still getting her killed. I imagine the fact that you have to keep her protected so much when you only have a couple other units makes her really hard to use in chapters like 3-2. 3-3 and 3-4 are much kinder to her, but then 3-5 kicks her in the face again. 3-10 and 3-E join in, among others, but by those later chapters she'd probably have levelled quite a lot and may even be passably durable. What I'm saying is, despite her availability, how often do you really get to take advantage of her offence?

[Psych]

3-2: With a thunder forge, and the rest of your drafted units, her heading down and the boss kill should be relativly clean cut.

3-5: If she isn't holding the left ledge, and killing the mages, you're probably using her wrong.

3-10: The bridge. Onagers, and more mages. Few Snipers and Halberds. Sure, get her stuck in a hole, and it might be game over. But if this is a draft, we'd be aiming for low turns. And someone wanting low turns, would be sure of where the holes are, and aren't. Should probably be Tier 3 by now.

3-E: You'll have even more people, now that you teamed up with Crimea. Definatly Archsage by now. Can stay back and heal, and there's a set of SM's and Zihark, Halb's and Aran, Warriors and Nolan, and Armors and Meg. None have fantastic resistance. You'll have joined with the remains of the beast tribe as well, which the computer will prioritze attacking over Ilyana anyway.

For part 4, her best team is probably Micaiah, but I can see putting her in Tibarn's as well. She even gets her own SS weapon, before any of the other types.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

WoMC, I have to assume Nephinel in roughly six out of seven cases, because your argument there only applies when Elincia and Nephenee are both drafted. Plus, you posted Nephenee's --/18 averages, meaning that only applies if you gave her 17 levels of CEXP before the end of P2. Clearly you didn't, you gave her BEXP. Rather, her --/18 stats next to Oscar's would look more like this:

Name         Level    HP|ST|MG|SK|SP|LK|DF|RS
Nephenee   --/18/0    41|22| 8|26|27|20|22|18
Oscar      --/18/0    41|22| 8|24|24|21|19|14

Yeah, it's not much different, but it is slightly superior to before, with +1 strength and defence most notable. Still, that's only a one-in-seven case, the rest of the time, 3-2 Nephenee vs 3-2 Oscar is going to look like this:

Name         Level    HP|ST|MG|SK|SP|LK|DF|RS
Nephinel   --/20/1    47|26|13|28|29|20|26|22
Oscar      --/18/0    41|22| 8|24|24|21|19|14

And now she's killing him everywhere except luck, which doesn't matter. Oh, and she has Impale... though she won't need it for much besides maybe Generals. I believe she can even double SMs with that speed. Oscar can counter with BEXP washing of his own, which he'll probably want to do when he gets to --/18, but that's your end of the argument. :3

Regardless of whether Elincia is drafted or not, the player wants to take the penalty in using her in order to clear the chapter faster. Oscar promotes pretty soon anyway.

[Naglfar]

Oh, 3-10 was the wrong chapter, I meant 3-9. You're bringing up some nice points though. I imagine it's not going to be too hard to keep her protected in most of P1 as well, so above Boyd, below Edward sounds fair to me.

Edit: Haar can do that job too, for whatever that's worth. And I just remembered now that Nephenee is getting some levels of CEXP too... what's she expected to make by 2-E? I really have no idea.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Naglfar

[SmoulderingGT]

Hmm. I think that a draft tier list suggests a different way of organizing. Namely, instead of "top", "mid" etc., it should be organized by draft round pick. This way, it can be made explicit which characters are mutually exclusive (or at least, probably mutually exclusive). It may be obvious that Haar and Titania are unlikely to end up on the same draft team, but for the later picks, it may not be so clear.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Edit: Haar can do that job too, for whatever that's worth. And I just remembered now that Nephenee is getting some levels of CEXP too... what's she expected to make by 2-E? I really have no idea.

I think the approximation factors in her CEXP levels too. Haar cannot usually be deployed and needs BEXP for speed regardless.

[Naglfar]

Hmm. I think that a draft tier list suggests a different way of organizing. Namely, instead of "top", "mid" etc., it should be organized by draft round pick. This way, it can be made explicit which characters are mutually exclusive (or at least, probably mutually exclusive). It may be obvious that Haar and Titania are unlikely to end up on the same draft team, but for the later picks, it may not be so clear.

It's obvious that the earlier picks are going to be at the top and the later picks are at the bottom. There's no need to change the tried and true tiering format, especially when ideal times to pick certain units can fluctulate wildly based on what units you and other players have taken, and what your plan is. Which units are better than others is quite possible to gauge. Which units should be picked and when is fairly easy for the first round or so, then rapidly gets more and more situational from there.

I think the approximation factors in her CEXP levels too. Haar cannot usually be deployed and needs BEXP for speed regardless.

Yes, but I'd like to know how far she's getting with CEXP so I can calculate her stats more accurately. Something between --/5 and --/10, probably. As for Haar, he's an option for the person who drafted him. I was just putting that out there. I expect he'll need more BEXP than Elincia to reliably ORKO Ludveck, however.

[Naglfar]

I wouldn't bother with Fiona if I was able to pick one of the other DB members. It takes too much to make her useable and even then she won't really help beat part 1 unless for some reason the person who have her have no one draft for Part 1

Which is why she's lower than all the other DB members save Vika, whose position I haven't decided on yet.

it probably doesn't hurt to give Haar all the bexps if you have him draft since he does most of the work on Part 3. I was pretty cheap on the bexps and only gave him four levels on the current draft. Everything past 3-1 for the GM is how fast Haar can finish the stage with Ike and Ilyana for my team to pick up the scraps so I assume it will be the same for anyone who got Haar

Haar doesn't really need BEXP straight away. I believe the 2-3 speedwing and a sprinkle of BEXP allows him to double Ludveck, and aside from that he'll only really want some to boost his lower stats after his higher ones cap. Nephenee is most significantly improved by the P2 BEXP dump, that's why it's Nephinel and not... some portmanteau of Haar and Dragonlord.

[Psych]

Haarod?

Now let's argue why Ilyana seperated Soren by a tier, and Cain, Meg, and Maurim are higher then him. >_>

[Naglfar]

Soren, Caineghis and Muarim haven't been moved anywhere yet. Meg may have been moved too high.

But let's focus on Soren. Soren's biggest problem is his lack of doubling... which he can do on NM a lot easier than on HM. For now he'll go from the bottom of Mid to the bottom of Upper Mid, below Shinon. Quicksauce support with Ike means he can dodge better, and unless there's someone like Oscar on the team, an Ike support is pretty likely. Then there's his Adept, which he's more likely to keep here, but I know Ike likes it for Generals early in P3. Thoughts?

Edited August 2, 2010 by Naglfar

[Psych]

Well, dura and avaliability go to Ilyana probably. Weapons to Soren. He also gets base Meteor.

How bout:

Meg between Muarim and Skrimir,

Swap Mordecai and Soren.

Other stuff:

Isn't Sothe free?

Isn't BK free?

Gareth should be lower, or Pellease should be higher. 1 chapter and being laguz with a gem < 7 chapters with dark magic. He should promote by 4-5 if you're using him.

Nasir should be higher too. Speed is good, regardless of mode.

Lucia should probably go down.

Nailah might want to go between Mia and Gatrie.

List of things Heather can steal:

Dracosheild

Bolting

Energy Drop

White Gem (Senator)

Ashera Icon (Senator)

Statue Frag

Random Vulnearies

Things from the DB

Bunch of other stuff too

Combat isn't perfect, but I'd say she can go over Elincia, maybe Boyd if someone can argue her really well.

[Deliriyum]

Considering Meg's place, Leonardo should go up. Leonardo can take Ilyana's shade if nobody else needs it more, He probably won't ever double anything that everyone else doesn't double, but he provides a useful chip. Also, Lughnasadh, and he gets monopoly on 3-6 brave bow until part 4.

Edit: At 3-6 lets assume he is 20/1.

His with Lughnasadh are:

29 HP

31 Mt

17+5 AS

~158 Hit

~50 Avo

12 def.

I don't have enemy stats, but I am fairly confident that he isn't getting doubled by the cats with 22 AS. Also, remember he can take the beastfoe and do some damage with crossbows

Edited August 2, 2010 by Core

[Integrity]

MY NAME WAS MENTIONED.

First step: I propose a motion to remove Ike, Mic, and Sothe from the list. Since it's a list based off of who's best to draft and those three aren't draftees, I find this reasonable.

Second step: A Comprehensive Analysis of Using Laura In A Gimped Brigade:

Laura has a very shaky start. There's no way to mollify this fact. Until she promotes, she's not leveling quickly and she's not contributing very much since you need to walk her up to melee range to heal. Because she has to waltz on up, she's being faecpwned by anything that happens to have more than the 5 MOV required to get around Nolan+Sothe or you're stuffed into a chokepoint.

Ergo, Laura's best avenue of advance is BEXP feeding like it's cotton candy. Since it's NM, Mic's hitting 20 before she promotes anyway, Sothe doesn't need any and you likely only have one other Brigadier, Laura gets whatever BEXP she wants. Now note that I fed her BEXP slower than I should and it didn't really pay off; most of the 99BEXP +1 CEXP levels I gave her were two- or three-stat levels anyway. I had her eat a Seal just in time to become a Walrus[/b]Bishop for 1-E, but I think 1-8 is easily feasible, especially considering somebody better than I getting more BEXP.

What did Laura look like at this ludicrous 20 without even a half dozen CEXP levels? Capped MAG/SKL/SPD, enough STR to negate weight penalties, and some decent DEF. What did she lose? HP. At 20/0, she had 18. Obviously, this is unworkable - but you have two Seraph Robes to throw around. Micaiah may have dibs on one, but Nolan/Volug ain't gonna need it, and only Edward would really enjoy it as much as Laura I think. Therefore, Laura's up to 25, then promoting and gaining a few points.

On to her actual performance: 1-E she was durable enough to take 2HKOs from the Bandits/Generals and she wasn't getting doubled. I didn't check specifically, but I think she was taking 3RKO from the Myrmen and not getting doubled. She was also countering for RES damage which is good, and doing a hefty bit to boot. She got a couple levels as Rafiel's Honor Guard.

Part 3:

3-6: Laura was able to face 2RKO at <40% HIT from Tigers and Cats alike. She also, with Beastfoe, roughly demolished them in return, doing something on the order of Ludicrous Damage especially to Tigers. Her Nolan support here also dropped the hits to <20%, making her very, VERY tough.

3-12: Not as good as 3-6, but she was able to wall and knock some bitches down alongside her BFF. At this point, Laura's durability surpassed Sothe's.

3-13: Laura became Saint Laura. If I'd remembered to recruit Aran instead of killing him, I'd have had a Sleep Staff on the only possible user (thanks to Mic's lockedness) to bumrush Ike for a roflkill. Because I forgot it, I had the brilliant idea to course Saint Laura straight down with Beastfoe and see what she could do. The result? She killed every Beast between her and Ike in one round each with Nolan tagging behind, and then faced Ike at almost 1RKO status. A little Nolan weakening caused Laura to crush him utterly - and she had the potential to proc Corona which would have dropped him licketysplit.

Part 4 for Laura was better than Part 3, in that she became, roughly, invincible. To give you an idea, I stocked her with Ellight for 4-4 and had to make Nolan leave her. She was bogged down by a SM she couldn't double and managed to break her way into Oliver's area and break all the tomes I gave her. Solo. No support. 4-1 was less spectacular but she performed similarly on the right side.

For the Tower, Laura performed well in the beginning - especially considering all the Generals on Cover tiles and the Sleep staffers - and amusingly procced Corona on Hetzel to kill him instantly but that's a PEMN moment. Bless her Nosferatu and she becomes a perfect Dragon tank, being able to handle practically infinite reinforcements and come out ahead - hell, give her Dragonfoe and course her straight up to Dheggie's honorguard (but do not let her fight Dheggie) and she'll kill each and every one of those sonsabitches, clearing the way for your Dheggie Killing Group. After that, her natural RES allows her to tank Spirits forever (and they do respond to Provoke, generally) and then she really doesn't contribute anything but healbottery on Ashera.

Of course, this entire post has focused on her offensive potential. She's still a stick user for this entire time, allowing her to whip Fort out for 4-E-5 and let the blastier Micaiah kill things. She can still Restore whoever gets Slept with no fear of her getting Slept in return, etc. etc. etc.

I really gotta jet, but I end with proposing Laura for bottom of Upper Mid.

[Anouleth]

Tanith should go up a little bit. I mean, she's below Meg and Brom. I know they have availability advantages, but they still have dire stats and crappy movement. Literally any team that manages to snag Edward/Laura/Zihark/Nolan/Jill/Volug has absolutely no need whatsoever for Meg. Yes, even Laura, since you can pour BEXP into Laura without screwing her stats up. If Meg tries to do the same thing, it screws her strength, and when you're mono-swords, you need as much strength as you can get.

Brom is good for 2-1 (where he should be free anyway), but he's your worst character in 2-2 and 2-E, no exagerration, even Calill is better since we can make Archsage!Calill and have her Meteorpwn Ludveck. While you can try this with Brom, I don't know if he'd even reach 22AS with BEXP. I guess he does cap HP pretty quickly, but Speed is his third lowest growth, at 30%.

And once we get to Part 3, any given unit that has 7 move leaves him the dust since we can make them crazy durable.

No idea why Nasir is below Stefan/Volke/Ena/Gareth/Kurthnaga. If we're training 13 units, then Stefan/Volke are taking endgame slots away from our three worst units, while there is no associated cost for Nasir. Nasir is also pretty helpful in endgame chapters for killing Spirits and Lehran and Auras, since you don't have Royalh4x that can double naturally.

Oliver needs to go down to the bottom of the list. I find it hard to envision a 13 unit team that somehow sucks so bad that it actually wants to deploy him in Endgame. His healing is useless - not only do we have Micaiah, but we have 9 other healers that can all be potentially brought to Endgame and be way more useful. ffs, he's below Mist, who crushes him in availibility. It's not like Oliver is even beating her in combat, since they both suck at it and should be kept away from enemies.

Renning needs to be higher, like, above Stefan and Volke. We have enough BEXP to seriously talk about giving him some for his strength and speed, possibly with a Robe or Book for support. This pushes him into 'doubles Generals' territory. 55mt is needed to 1-round the Lvl13 Generals. With capped strength and WTA, Renning can *just* get that. Oh, and he can pick up the Hammer and 1-round the Cover Generals (the left ones, the right ones have WTA against him). He also has better movement and Canto, so he can reach the Sleep Bishop easily. He's not beating them in 4-E-5, but it's a lot closer in 4-E-4 since he can 1-round Spirits with the Brave Axe + Parity. And he's more durable in 4-E-3, since he can scrape a 3HKO from Dragons.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Slowking

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

No idea why Nasir is below Stefan/Volke/Ena/Gareth/Kurthnaga. If we're training 13 units, then Stefan/Volke are taking endgame slots away from our three worst units, while there is no associated cost for Nasir. Nasir is also pretty helpful in endgame chapters for killing Spirits and Lehran and Auras, since you don't have Royalh4x that can double naturally.

Stefan/Volke don't take away any endgame slots. Ike/Micaiah/Sothe are all forced, so 10 picks fits 10 slots.

Nailah, Janaff, Ulki, and Tibarn should move down a tier or so, again, no 2-range is killer and none of them have particularly good availability. By the time Janaff and Ulki show up for the GMs, you likely have someone with comparable/better stats, and while 9 mov + canto + flight is certainly a pro, I'm not sure it can compensate for natural laguz issues, including gauge for them.

[Zynac]

i would argue for Ulki over Janaff, it may just be personal prefrence but i find Ulki's extra avoid to be amazing, making him capable of dodgeing even cross bows by the Endgame. I guess i understand the preference of first turn transformation but really in RD you have to use items( olivi grass laguz stones and finally the laguz gem) to make them a viable unit( half shift can be useful as well at times). i just feel like ulki makes a much better end product because of his insane dodging abilities.

Also...why are they both so high up on the list, i mean they are availible and strong but they are very hard to train( most laguz in RD have similair problems) so they need alot of favoritism/BEXP( which you mentioned that you get lots of in draft playthroughs but even so they take alot of it)

Edited August 2, 2010 by Zynac

[Anouleth]

i would argue for Ulki over Janaff, it may just be personal prefrence but i find Ulki's extra avoid to be amazing, making him capable of dodgeing even cross bows by the Endgame. I guess i understand the preference of first turn transformation but really in RD you have to use items( olivi grass laguz stones and finally the laguz gem) to make them a viable unit( half shift can be useful as well at times). i just feel like ulki makes a much better end product because of his insane dodging abilities.

Also...why are they both so high up on the list, i mean they are availible and strong but they are very hard to train( most laguz in RD have similair problems) so they need alot of favoritism/BEXP( which you mentioned that you get lots of in draft playthroughs but even so they take alot of it)

Janaff has higher strength. Both Ulki and Janaff have issues with strength - in fact, it's their only problem. Both have really good speed, and really good durability, so Janaff is never at risk of dying from anything other than crossbows, which aren't common. In other words, they both have advantages, but Janaff's advantages are more useful.

You don't need to train Janaff and Ulki. They kick ass from the moment they join.

[RNG Princess]

I'm curious howcome Fiona is a lot higher than Astrid?

[Deliriyum]

Janaff has higher strength. Both Ulki and Janaff have issues with strength - in fact, it's their only problem. Both have really good speed, and really good durability, so Janaff is never at risk of dying from anything other than crossbows, which aren't common. In other words, they both have advantages, but Janaff's advantages are more useful.

You don't need to train Janaff and Ulki. They kick ass from the moment they join.

I think Ulki's vigilance is much better than Janaff's insight.

Also, nobody agrees with Leonardo moving up(see my earlier post)

[Zynac]

Janaff has higher strength. Both Ulki and Janaff have issues with strength - in fact, it's their only problem. Both have really good speed, and really good durability, so Janaff is never at risk of dying from anything other than crossbows, which aren't common. In other words, they both have advantages, but Janaff's advantages are more useful.

You don't need to train Janaff and Ulki. They kick ass from the moment they join.

not really, especially in HM, laguz are hard to use and these guys arnt strong enough to improve very fast( because kills seem to not level them at all) i mean my ulki never did anything good until towards the end after he had been strengthened with levels and given the proper transformation items. that being said janaff's strength was somthing i didnt know about cuz i probably gave ulki the strength drops.

[Integrity]

We're not tiering for HM, Zynac. Their performance in NM is all that matters.

[Fayt Zelpher]

I'm curious howcome Fiona is a lot higher than Astrid?

I think it's because Fiona joins as part of a weaker team that's around for longer, and her underleveledness matters significantly less because BEXP exists on NM.

It's really because Astrid just isn't salvageable on NM, whereas you can dump BEXP on Fiona and make her resemble decency. Kind of.