OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

Keep in mind this is Ike at his best and Haar at his worst. Ike's doubling, while better than most GMs, is still not 100% (he starts with 23 spd, 3-P enemies already have 20 AS, and his 35% growth isn't awesome)...sure, there exist ways to fix it, but Haar can use those as well, and a Haar that ORKOs something is definitely trashing Ike.

It's much easier to fix it for Ike, though. A Speedwing pretty much solves his problems forever, whereas Haar is still having a lot of trouble. A Spd transfer is much easier on Ike. Then Ike's forced promotion pretty much asks you to slowplay him a bit so he can make effective use of BEXP. Haar might be able to do it as well, but then a tier 2 cap of 24 hinders him by the time he actually reaches it.

And I wouldn't say a Haar that ORKOs is "trashing" Ike at all, since Ike also has little advantages on his side, including much superior affinity, virtually no cost to use unless you give him Wind Edges (very small, yet still notable), always being forced (Including endgame), two bosses only he can kill (I don't know how much weight to put to them, but it would be wrong to not include them), access to both Hammers and Wyrmslayers (well, Haar can use the Horseslayer, but that's probably gone too soon), 5 more skill capacity, and, of course, Shoving/Smiting, which has its own blend of unique uses that might not be as good as Haar's flying/Rescuing but still is very useful.

Ike at the end of a 3-player phase is pretty flexible (within his own movement limits), but then again he's also more likely to be near other people who match his move, or are at least grounded like Titania, so if he had failed to kill something someone else was likely to clean it up already, so it's less of a net gain for the team. Meanwhile Haar on his own killing stuff is things others couldn't have killed that turn.

You forget that Oscar and Titania, and eventually Janaff and Ulki, all have the same move as Haar, so it's pretty unlikely for him to go somewhere at least they can't reach, which beats your "killing stuff others couldn't have that turn" argument.

And when we're dealing with units as durable as these, I often find that +2 move is pretty overblown. Ike can still pretty much use his full move on every single turn should he need to, and the only case where that isn't enough to start facing enemies is 3-5 because they placed him at the back of the map, but that chapter also has Reyson, so it's just one turn. Otherwise, Haar's only real advantage is that he might face different enemies than Ike, but that isn't nearly good enough to beat a clear offense lead.

I saw you mention Physic somewhere, but we don't get one until like 3-10 or something. And Ike needing healing less due to Earth support is better anyway.

I'm not that familiar with the chapter lay-out, but Haar can likely burn whatever he feels like earlier than others, and allows others to focus on taking on enemies safely, stealing from a senator, or even shove each other for building supports.

I was pointing out that it wasn't entirely unique to him. I can put Titania in there and it would apply to her in almost the same way. The one at the back is the only real advantage for Haar, maybe the one at the bottom right immediately above our starting position.

Too bad two of them like to die and suck at offense, meaning they're much less flexible in what potholes they can and cannot cover.

Like to die, what? Both Sigrun and Tanith are 3 rounded by the majority of stronger enemies, and 4+ by all the weaker ones. And it hardly matters, because covering potholes means people are passing by them, so they likely won't even face any enemies unless you want to actively use one or both. And if Marcia is in play, her offense isn't even that bad. She generally 2 rounds, just like Haar (except Generals, but Haar might miss the 2RKO on them anyway because lolSpd), and her durability is similar to Tanith and Sigrun's only she grows faster.

And he can also choose which route he goes, whereas Ike is forced on his.

Notable, but still not a big advantage, since 4-4 is like one of the toughest chapters in the game due to >9000 reinforcements and Sleep staff. Flying might have gotten better for Haar as an individual, but seeing as I have plenty of choices for that, it's no longer such a notable win either since Ike still wins offense pretty cleanly.

[Narga_Rocks]

You know, this topic is slow for days in which I have nothing to do, then the one day I'm busy from noon to 11 and there is stuff about Mia and Mak and Danved get moved up, it's kind of annoying. Oh, and @Red Fox, technically nobody else argued against it, but the member formally known as pretty boi wolf did say that if they get moved up then so should Lethe, presumably above Lehran and Gareth, anyway. Since this didn't happen, it could be argued that he did disagree with the move you made.

I'm not sure how everyone is feeling about the whole Ike x Mia support right now, but to correct a few misconceptions:

Ike x Mist is way way faster than anything in the game. Ike x Mist is not exactly a good choice for efficiency's sake.

Any of Ike's 01s are about as fast as his Mia support. In order to build Ike x Soren faster than Ike x Mia, you need 9 adjacents in a single map. 3-P is like 7 turns. So Ike x Soren is looking at a C for 3-2. Rescuing to accelerate it is a bad idea because if you are trying to use Soren he needs the kills he'd miss out on for being carried, and an Ike with 14 skl and 12 spd is a sucky Ike when we need a good Ike. Saviour won't even appear until 3-2 if we get Ilyana to cart it over, but that prevents some other skill combos on Ike like Disarm + Flourish, and still doesn't fix Soren's issue of not leveling.

Ike x Soren takes 5 adjacents in 2 maps to pull off a level. Ike x Mia needs 7. For reaching B or A Ike x Mia can get away with 6 adjacents and 1 shove. Ike x Soren still need 4 adjacents and 1 shove or 5 adjacents. A shove means Ike isn't attacking anything, and with Soren's less move it means Ike is hanging back further. (Leaving Soren exposed, btw). So it takes 3 adjacents in one map and 2 in another for Ike x Soren. It takes 3 adjacents in one map and 4 in another for Ike x Mia. It is a small cramping of our tactics, outweighed by the benefits. It isn't slower at all to make Ike x Mia than Ike x Soren. The only support Ike has that can reasonably get 1 level per map is Ike x Mist, but Mist is still paper for a while even with Ike and Ike doesn't need the def Mist is giving out so all he gets is the +mt. Really the +hit is a bigger draw of Mia x Ike than the +mt, though the +mt and +hit is the perfect combination for wind edges and storm swords, considering they can't be forged ever and Ike can benefit from some 2 range options along the way.

Anyway, going back to Int's thing about Ike x Mia going anywhere and raping, let's look at Ike's earth.

So, we have this awesome Earth affinity. We also have a lot of units with mediocre offence and durability.

Offence:

Ike

crown!Gatrie

Mia

the rest.

Basically, from chapters 3-2 to 3-5, we've got 3 units who can double and do lots of damage.

Durability:

Of these, only Mia is lacking for defence, though she still does okay without it, just not awesome.

Looking at her without Earth:

Jump to 30 spd.

Since we didn't give her earth let's look at her best bio and neutral bio. She isn't tanking when she has worst bio or we might as well ask her to die.

28 skl, 14 + 10 + 15 = 39 crit.

30% or 40% cancel and vantage and adept. (Others don't have free vantage, and can't use vantage + cancel with anything. They also either don't double or don't 3HKO or don't have her speed anyway. Face it, she's the best use of vantage + cancel + adept. Giving it to anyone else is an inferior choice. Being doritos has benefits. More on adept later.)

Enemies = ~15 cev.

So 24 crit.

For best, that's:

40% vantage

40% cancel

40% adept

24% crit

So, when she vantages against something she 3HKOs, she's got a:

24% chance of blicking.

40% chance of canceling.

40% chance of adepting, followed by 24% chance of blicking and 40% chance of canceling.

So, 60% chance of not adepting when vantaging.

When she doesn't adept, she has a 54.4% chance of not getting attacked.

When she adepts, she's got 4 shots at critting or canceling.

So 79.2% chance of not getting attacked.

.6 x .544 + .4 x .792 = .6432

So when she vantages she has a 64.32% chance of not getting attacked.

So that's a 25.728% chance of not getting attacked every single time she's "attacked" at 1 range by something she 3HKOs while holding her forge. And if you want her to live, why is she not holding her forge?

On good, she has:

30% vantage

30% cancel

30% adept

24% crit

So, when she vantages against something she 3HKOs, she's got a:

24% chance of blicking.

30% chance of canceling.

30% chance of adepting, followed by 24% chance of blicking and 30% chance of canceling.

So, 70% chance of not adepting when vantaging.

When she doesn't adept, she has a 46.8% chance of not getting attacked.

When she adepts, she's got 4 shots at critting or canceling.

So 71.6976% chance of not getting attacked.

.7 x .468 + .3 x .716976 = .5426928

So when she vantages she has a ~54.27% chance of not getting attacked.

So that's a 16.28% (.16280784) chance of not getting attacked (when attacked).

Remember, 25.728% while on best bio.

So, since I basically gave her lvl 11 for these statistics, that's ~37 hp, ~14/15 def, and 60 + 19 + 15 = 94 avo. Or 104 on best. Enemies are averaging 135 hit on 3-4.

Basically she is facing 41 listed on average on neutral and 31 listed on best. For true hit, that's 34.03% for neutral and 19.53% on best.

Now to throw in the enemies chances of not getting to attack her and we get:

28.5% chance to actually get hit on neutral.

14.5% chance to actually get hit on best.

Assuming a little slowplaying which boosts hp/str/def/lck along the way the enemies average hit goes up slowly and some start equipping poleaxes and similary low hit rate weapons meaning 120s and stuff. So even by 3-11 the average hit is still around 140, though some go as high as 160s and of course the crossbows are even higher. Still, this is a good indication of what she faces on average. Of course, some enemies have more luck, some have less. Some few have 2 range so she can't apply her vantage, some are generals and aren't dropped in a single hit, but a lot of those guys are around 120. Look at 3-8 for example.

So where she is 3HKOd, her chances of death on neutral are:

2.315% in 3 attacks.

6.62% in 4 attacks.

11.8% in 5 attacks.

16.9% in 6 attacks.

21.175% in 7 attacks.

Now, some of those might not seem so bad, which is why her durability is passable without earth, and I suppose a wind/thunder/dark support would reduce it further. But the point is the number of times we might wish to ask her to face, say, 5 attacks between healings.

7 times: 58.4778% chance of death. Really really high.

Obviously when she's on best, it's lower. Her chance of getting hit is almost cut in half.

But it doesn't make that much of a difference. If we want to send her into a crowd, she'll die often enough for us to care. She's still doing okay because we don't have to send her into that crowd, but just think, a B earth, easily attainable in 3-4, gives her 15 more avo. She drops her average to 16 listed and 26 listed (and 36 listed on worst, lower than it used to be on neutral.)

Anyway, there will be many opponents with sub 10 listed, and some still have in the 20s, and on worst she still is prevented from facing 5 at once. But remember her offence:

Only crowned Gatrie and Ike have better offence, and not even against swordmasters since she ORKOs and they don't. Shinon doesn't have her numbers on enemy phase, and on player phase his defence doesn't matter.

All of those other people who would "benefit" from an Ike support will never make 5 or 6 enemies between healings relatively safe. None of them will be able to face it. You get units like Haar who can already face it, so all that earth means is being healed every 3 or 4 turns instead of every 1 or 2. His turn by turn tactics aren't going to change except now he's tied to Ike.

Except Heather, who has similar avo to Mia, except that brings us to the next point:

Mia without Ike can generally face 3 enemies relatively safely, especially if the only nearby enemies are under average in the hit department. Mia however has the best offence of the not as durable types. (ie: discounting crowned Gatrie and Ike).

When giving out Earth, you should not only want to make a unit more durable, you should also want to focus on which unit will provide the biggest boost to our offence now that they can be more durable.

Mia trounces every other potential candidate for Ike's support in either offence or new durability or both.

You aren't getting Soren to face 5 enemies every turn without worrying about him dying thanks to Earth. Not many others either. But even if you could get them to face 5 enemies, like Heather now would be able to (and Heather has the fire too), we also just gave up the option of creating a wrecking machine since Heather can't forge a powerful crit weapon (24 mt at base level for a max mt max crit steel knife forge, and Heather doesn't have base crit or amazing skill) and none of the others will suddenly be able to face swarms.

So with Mia we boost the durability of the best offence on our team that lacks durability and actually has enemy phase offence. Gatrie doesn't need the earth to face swarms, and Ike is the one giving it.

Also, as int touched on, Ike needs the avo from his own affinity anyway. Meaning he is shackled to his support if he wants to face swarms. But these swarms aren't always going to attack him. If Soren is nearby, guess who is getting attacked.

To the guy who said the maps would go slower, why? They move 7 ahead each turn, face a swarm, let the others clean up the cripples, and run ahead another 7. They can even stand side by side in 3-4 and 3-5 if you want to build support levels, so the 02 isn't so bad because Mia can stand next to Ike without dying. Soren can't. So those 2 extra turns needed to be spent adjacent? Not so relevant now, because standing Soren next to Ike means we need to find a way for Soren to not be attacked by anything likely to kill him. Mia doesn't worry as much.

Which also leads me to why not Mia with someone else? Say thunder did make her super durable and able to do what she can with earth. Well, now we have Shinon and his crossbow. Well, that's annoying. Enemies might attack Shinon a bunch, since he does less damage, and now we have things that the nubs might not be able to finish off and Shinon didn't kill anything on enemy phase, or at least not much. Which means he probably loaded all of his facings and so some enemies that only move if they can attack likely didn't move. So now on the following turn there are more enemies closer and it is suddenly harder to keep everyone out of enemy range. When Mia and Ike draw enemies, they draw everything in range. Meaning with all that they've killed plus what your nubs kill, if a nub is standing where Mia or Ike stood last turn, there is nothing that can attack them now. This applies to your Soren, Ilyana, Reyson, Heather, Mist, Rhys, whomever. Making the Ike x Mia support is actually better for all of them, too. Especially the heron, since Mia x Ike make it so much easier to protect the heron. Walling becomes less important since everything that was in range of Reyson's new position is dead. Who needs a wall to block nothing?

Giving Ike to anyone else simply causes Ike to move slower to make sure his support partner is still within 3 but out of range of all those enemies. Even if his support partner won't die, like if we give him Oscar or Heather, all those enemies attacking Oscar/Heather means we give up on damage we could have given. So either Ike gets held back or we do far less damage. Mia doesn't have these issues.

Anybody else doesn't become nigh invincible.

Mia does.

Anybody else we should probably keep out of enemy phase action anyway.

Mia should be part of enemy phase action.

With Mia we get the most durability we can get from Ike's earth, and the unit getting the most durability out of it happens to have the best offence of anyone that is in the running for the support. It really is a perfect match, since everything we get as a player out of it is superior to anything we could get out of any other pairing.

You know what? Shinon takes Soren. Shinon gets his +mt support, they are both backliners so are close together at all times, their mutual flexibility of positions (2-range in both cases) makes a support build faster, and I don't have to worry about sending ShinonxSoren off alone because Shinon sucks on Enemy Phase and he's always with the main army anyway.

There, I've solved the problem. Someone give me a cookie, please.

I'd give you a cookie, but Shinon is really good for endgame and Soren isn't. Calill can double, Ilyana can take an extra hit. Soren's third at best for sages in endgame. I also would like to give Shinon Mist, but I don't want to bring her. Really though, Shinon is a backliner. What does he need with a support in part 4? I say, Shinon x Mist in part 3, gets his mt up, gets her def up even more, and gives her the best avo she's likely to get, since she is not getting Ike or Oscar. Then in part 4 when he has silver forges and eventually double bow and we could have slowplayed in part 3 to cap his tier 2 str, he no longer really needs it as much. I'm not sure who to give him at that point, and I don't remember if I gave him anyone or who I gave him once I broke the Mist support I gave him.

Mine isn't perfect either (and Calill misses out on a spirit dust), so I guess I don't deserve a cookie. Still, it's Shinon's problem, not Mia's.

(on a side note, Rhys x Soren. Neither is getting attacked, so def and avo are not relevant. All they want is mt and hit. Rhys provides the hit, and an A support means 3 mt. Also, neither are going to endgame, so when they finish in 4-4 they don't care.)

(Oh, and @red fox, there is Elincia's physic. Don't forget that one. What does she need it for on the last turn of 2-E anyway? Otherwise it just sits in the CRK inventory until 3-11 anyway. Aside from that one and a couple of physics we need to disarm + steal and thus might not get, yes, the first one is from the bishop in 3-10 that we can steal simply by having it attack us on enemy phase.

So, adept and Mia. Was anyone complaining? Anyway, just to say this in case anyone doesn't like it but didn't voice it this time: A ~20% adept rate is not useful in any way shape or form. It is completely unreliable. We are likely going to have that unit attack something while planning to use another unit afterward. If adept procs, who cares? It just means we need to find something for the other unit to do now. Even if this other unit is Haar and has an actual enemy phase, it still doesn't do nearly as much as Mia's ~50% activation (two shots at 30%). And with crits thrown in she gets up to 70. That is, as int always points out, basically double (or more) the kill rate anyone else is likely to get with adept. Meaning much more reliable on player phase, and much better at clearing things on enemy phase.

I know to some people giving one character adept + cancel + Ike's support + letting her keep vantage + a crit forge may seem like a lot of favouritism. But the way to look at it is opportunity cost. For adept, there is almost none, since it is rather unreliable in anyone else's hands. For cancel, there is little again, since a 20% cancel rate on player phase only is not too helpful. Mia at least gets a 30% on player phase and can actually use it on enemy phase (plus it combines with the possibility of critting to give a high chance of not being attacked). Ike's support she is again doritos. Letting her keep vantage, well, it's a 10 capacity skill she gets for free and uses better than anybody else. Why have someone pay 10 for something they don't even use as well as she does? I can think of one unit in the entire game that could actually compete for vantage and cancel, and she doesn't show up after 2-E until 4-2. As for the crit forge, even if for some reason you can only afford crit on one of your forges, what can be gained by sticking it on someone else's? Most other units have like ~20 skill, so they end up with 10 crit after enemy luck is considered. Mia has 29 and doubles. They are going to be rather unreliable where critting is concerned. Units like Ike and Shinon don't generally need it, either. Plus it should be possible to afford more than just one crit forge anyway.

There is a small opportunity cost in giving her all this. But the gains are so very much higher that it is virtually meaningless. Some might disagree, but frankly I think it's a bigger gap than giving Gatrie the crown over giving the crown to Haar or Titania (or anyone else, since these two are #2 and #3, I think). And that gap is rather large, too.

[grandjackal]

As a note, I do actually agree with the move, I just disagree that Lethe didn't move up with them.

[Narga_Rocks]

As a note, I do actually agree with the move, I just disagree that Lethe didn't move up with them.

My issue with Mak and Danved moving up is that they take two chapters of paragon and a crown (3-11 and 3-E with paragon) just to reach mediocrity. At least Calill and Marcia with paragon become special. Calill is a mage that doubles most things in 4-E-1 without rexflame and needs rexflame for a few things in 4-E-2 but that's short anyway, then in 4-E-3 rexflame is blessed if a dragon gets close and she can use a ranged tome for most of it (not really dependant on paragon, though) then in 4-E-4 she can use her blessed rexflame to blast away at the spirits doing more damage than most of your units when the spirits are on cover tiles, and in 4-E-5 is really good on cover tile auras.

Marcia doubles just about everything forever (unlike Mak) and can now grab the wishblade since even though she has less str than Nephenee, Marcia has her own fire and flies with canto and that's good for the sages in 4-E-1 (silver forge or forged javelin) and also helps in 4-E-3 and 4-E-4 (more move is good, too) and 4-E-5 (dragon skills and canto away for someone else).

Mak becomes nothing you don't have already and is likely worse at it than the other units we already had and he took paragon from others in 3-11 and 3-E. He's a lot further down in the pecking order for paragon than Marcia and Calill. Even with the paragon and the crown, 27 AS doesn't actually really double all that much in 4-1 and beyond, and while his 75% growth is nice and all, he's still got more hit issues with a hammer than units like Renning, even. Plus he took that paragon and all he gets is likely some doubling in 4-4/5, though enemies have so much speed in 4-5 he likely isn't doubling and in 4-4 he needs 31 AS for doubling a lot of those 27 speed warriors and he has issues getting anywhere. Basically, he gets less from paragon than a lot of other units give us. (braves are limited and units with more strength and skill are much better users of those weapons. Wyrmslayers might be nice, but he's got a low mastery and wyrmslayers don't have crit, so he's almost never killing a red (3% crit at max level and 15% sol) compared to other wyrmslayer users (take Elincia and two shots at stun compared to two at sol for example) he's not doing so well. On whites I suppose he's okay, but there is still the whole being 2HKOd thing. Then on spirits in 4-E-4 he's got his sol chance of ORKOing the ones on cover tiles. These guys have 30 luck so even a max crit forge isn't fixing his issues. Marcia is his only bond, and he took one of the paragons from her in 3-11 and 3-E so she's likely not going to endgame and even if she did she'd have to hang around him all the time and he'd still only have a 5% chance of critting.

The only way I see him in lower mid, is if we don't apply any opportunity cost to his use of paragon. As soon as we recognize that he is not a good paragon candidate, but we gave it to him anyway, I don't see how lower mid is justified. I suppose some people go by something like: at least giving him paragon can make him more useful than giving paragon would make the other units in low tier; but that doesn't really account for what we are giving up. I guess he is at least redeemable, but I don't see how a unit that only beats Lethe statistically because of getting a paragon (when she doesn't even need it as much) is so much higher than her. Cat gauge is bad, but not that bad. I think it would be similar to putting Ranulf below Oscar. Ranulf beats Oscar pretty handily statistically for most of the time, but if you give Oscar a crown at the right time and some paragon then suddenly Oscar is doing rather well in part 4 compared to Ranulf, and even though Ranulf eventually gets Rend Oscar still has 32 speed and can ORKO thunder spirits on cover tiles with a wishblade and do other various good things. Oscar is also more durable than Makalov thanks to similar spd/lck but having earth support and lances are better than swords (for before promotion) and they have similar str and Oscar will be far more accurate with a brave lance than Mak with a brave axe (thanks to more skl, similar lck, and 5 more hit for the weapon itself.) Compared to Ranulf, he'll have more luck and similar spd (unless Ranulf is level 32 or more) so he'll be better at avoiding. As for hp/def, 52hp/25def isn't so bad (level --/20/13) though with a crown it could be a bit worse. Point is, Lethe was pretty close to Makalov for a while durability-wise, too, and even when the gap gets large that's similar to the avo gap between Oscar and Ranulf thanks to Oscar's earth.

Honestly, to have Makalov this much higher than Lethe makes me think Oscar > Ranulf. Ranulf has the cat gauge issue but stomps Oscar statistically for a while (generally until promotion). Just like Lethe is stomping Makalov statistically until Mak promotes. Oscar may not even need the paragon usage that Makalov does just to get there, so there is less opportunity cost there. Only difference is Lethe is around longer than Mak, compared to Oscar being around longer than Ranulf. Well, that and 2-3/3-9, but Oscar has 3-P to 3-2 plus 3-5 where using him is either free (3-P to 3-2) or almost free (1 extra unit than slots in 3-5). Even 3-10 contains a fair number of slots, and by now Oscar should be top 12 easily. It just seems inconsistent to me.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Jaybee]

A repost.

1. IDK about Neph > Micky and Laura. I can't see Thani-bombing and healing being worse than being frail.

2. Heather should be above Marcia for extra availability where she can steal.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Joshybear25

[Florete]

The only way I see him in lower mid, is if we don't apply any opportunity cost to his use of paragon.

That pretty much is the case, at least for 3-9. You mentioned Calill and Marcia, but they're only in Mid, so they aren't assumed in play, and if Makalov is already in play, it's pretty unlikely both of the others are also in play due to the nature of the CRK's. So taking Paragon wouldn't actually constitute any favoritism because there'd be no one else to take it.

But anyway, I'd forgotten the arguments of Lethe vs. Makalov, so I'll move her up a bit.

[grandjackal]

Now why are we applying opportunity costs to something anyone can use and benefit equally from? I mean, unless you're Ike's group, you're gonna need Paragon. DB have theirs (WHY are we giving it to Ike's already killface group?), CRK have two. Thing is we COULD put opportunity costs on it, but it's pointless. It's not like we're gonna use the CRK evenly throughout the entire game. Chances are we're just gonna pick two of them anwyays and go from there. See, on the SD boards it's sort of like a Master Seal. You do not get a higher tier standing just from putting it to better use, as everyone needs to promote sooner or later anyways, the true benefit is how soon you can put it to best use (Thus why Maric is so damn high). The question should be "when do we get the results?". Considering 27 AS actually DOES double quite handily for part 4 outside of Endgame, I don't see the problem.

Maybe that's not worded right. Ok, look at it this way. Let's say you got the first master seal. First to get dibs on it are people who are level 20 by chapter 10, which is basically any earlygame healer. Maric puts it to the best use, but the others still have that advantage over other units not healers as they have the option before anyone else.

Same with Elite in this case. CRK can all use it, and we have two. Chances are we aren't gonna bother using all of them seriously. It's always brought up "Bawww, but he takes it from Marcia and Calill", when really the argument is "They can use it like anyone else on the team". If you want to say Makalov doesn't deserve Paragon, just show that he doesn't get results with it and thus doesn't actually deserve using it. I'll tell ya right now, he's able to pull off offense for part 4 faster than let's say Keiran can while still being generally tough, and will have a better weapon selection, not to mention easier to BEXP.

My point with Lethe though is I DID show they were close, and that's why I'd prefer her to move up as I have realized with his weapon selection, he's got actual endgame potential. Basically it's to make up for his part 3 fail of not being around while Lethe is.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Red Fox, but I guess I would clear up the air still...Or muddle it up...Whatever, you get the point. Danke for raising Lethe. Below Kurth seems reasonable for now.

Also, I agree with Joshy

Edited August 20, 2009 by Robo Ky

[dondon151]

Considering 27 AS actually DOES double quite handily for part 4 outside of Endgame, I don't see the problem.

It does? Maybe for 4-P, but for everything outside of paladins, sages and generals you need 28-29 to double most of them.

[Florete]

Considering 27 AS actually DOES double quite handily for part 4 outside of Endgame, I don't see the problem.

It does? Maybe for 4-P, but for everything outside of paladins, sages and generals you need 28-29 to double most of them.

Makalov has a 75% Spd growth. If he's at 27 now, he won't be for long.

[Narga_Rocks]

But anyway, I'd forgotten the arguments of Lethe vs. Makalov, so I'll move her up a bit.

I can live with that.

The only way I see him in lower mid, is if we don't apply any opportunity cost to his use of paragon.

That pretty much is the case, at least for 3-9. You mentioned Calill and Marcia, but they're only in Mid, so they aren't assumed in play, and if Makalov is already in play, it's pretty unlikely both of the others are also in play due to the nature of the CRK's. So taking Paragon wouldn't actually constitute any favoritism because there'd be no one else to take it.

Marcia and Calill are only in mid, so I'm not stating that they are going to be there. And it is pretty free in 3-9. But it isn't like it was only Calill and Marcia. I was trying to use them as an example that even units in mid benefit from it. I guess I should have brought up how some of the GMs can end up benefitting. As I said, Makalov with paragon + crown gets to about where many of the GMs are without anything. Titania still has a long climb to 33 spd, so paragon benefits her. Gatrie needs to get speed to be doubling in early part 4 chapters, so he needs it. I'm sure there are others. But with the possibility that some of those others aren't in play or got stat boosters or something, the cost isn't enormous, I suppose. Plus some of them benefit more with paragon in part 4 than in part 3. Still, it shouldn't be free in 3-11 and 3-E.

Now why are we applying opportunity costs to something anyone can use and benefit equally from? I mean, unless you're Ike's group, you're gonna need Paragon. DB have theirs (WHY are we giving it to Ike's already killface group?), CRK have two. Thing is we COULD put opportunity costs on it, but it's pointless. It's not like we're gonna use the CRK evenly throughout the entire game. Chances are we're just gonna pick two of them anwyays and go from there. See, on the SD boards it's sort of like a Master Seal. You do not get a higher tier standing just from putting it to better use, as everyone needs to promote sooner or later anyways, the true benefit is how soon you can put it to best use (Thus why Maric is so damn high). The question should be "when do we get the results?". Considering 27 AS actually DOES double quite handily for part 4 outside of Endgame, I don't see the problem.

Maybe that's not worded right. Ok, look at it this way. Let's say you got the first master seal. First to get dibs on it are people who are level 20 by chapter 10, which is basically any earlygame healer. Maric puts it to the best use, but the others still have that advantage over other units not healers as they have the option before anyone else.

Same with Elite in this case. CRK can all use it, and we have two. Chances are we aren't gonna bother using all of them seriously. It's always brought up "Bawww, but he takes it from Marcia and Calill", when really the argument is "They can use it like anyone else on the team". If you want to say Makalov doesn't deserve Paragon, just show that he doesn't get results with it and thus doesn't actually deserve using it. I'll tell ya right now, he's able to pull off offense for part 4 faster than let's say Keiran can while still being generally tough, and will have a better weapon selection, not to mention easier to BEXP.

Um, I did compare them to Mak. He loses. There are only two hammers, we've used them a bunch, and they go better on units with more skill/lck than Mak. Mak's got okay lck, but less skl than Renning. Renning had some issues hitting with a hammer. Mak's got a bit more. Then there is all the stuff in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5 that Marcia/Calill double and mak doesn't. Sure, "They can use it like anyone else on the team", they just happen to give us higher returns.

And 27 AS doesn't help much. It is, in fact, already failing in 4-1 on halbs and warriors. Even 28 speed fails on some warriors there. So he needs 3 levels just to get a good chance on some of the warriors. 1 or 2 levels suffices for some of the rest. Then in 4-4 he needs 30 for most halbs, 31 for most warriors. Considering he's pigeonholed into a specific route unless a staff user climbs up and uses rescue, and that route has some swordmasters and warriors as well as sages and generals, the high speed requirement is important. He needs 5 levels just to get 30.75, so he's still failing on most warriors.

Or with Tibarn, in 4-2, 28 speed does get most. After one level he's got a reasonable chance of doubling, so after a few fed kills he'll start being better. Then in 4-5 he needs a massive 32 speed for the cats and hawks and will never double ravens. So he's likely only doubling tigers here. Unless he gets 7 levels between the start of 4-2 and before the end of 4-5.

Really, he's doubling around half the time in part 4 and not the rest. Better than some, worse than others. Paragon gave us an average guy. The only reason it isn't so bad is because the other units are either not always played or have other ways to fix speed. But he also made us hold onto a crown until part 4 that could've been used earlier.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Why shouldn't it be free? It's not like we have a major deficit of people who are good part 4. Paragon really is just for endgame use, and we got what, 3-4 copies of the skill and the likes of Royals and Volke/Stefan/Oliver/whoever the fuck else part 4 throws at us basically just for the sole reason of endgame use?

Besides, it would still help Mak more, as he can get relevent speed in time unlike just about every other CRK. Only problem is his cap isn't 34, but he could be BEXPd for the strength, as he's got the rank for the brave axe for when it comes to crunch time against the auras if it's so big a deal. Then consider canto helps keep him safe in endgame, he can choose and switch out from the myriad of amazing swords endgame has to offer, basically endgame, Mak's one of the few paladins that is actually pretty damn awesome there. STR for the brave on the auras is not a problem, as BEXP does help at that point, as his stats cap, there's nothing but HP, Str and Skill to fix up.

I dunno, maybe I'm just suffering from Mak Mania.

[Florete]

Marcia and Calill are only in mid, so I'm not stating that they are going to be there. And it is pretty free in 3-9. But it isn't like it was only Calill and Marcia. I was trying to use them as an example that even units in mid benefit from it. I guess I should have brought up how some of the GMs can end up benefitting. As I said, Makalov with paragon + crown gets to about where many of the GMs are without anything. Titania still has a long climb to 33 spd, so paragon benefits her. Gatrie needs to get speed to be doubling in early part 4 chapters, so he needs it. I'm sure there are others. But with the possibility that some of those others aren't in play or got stat boosters or something, the cost isn't enormous, I suppose. Plus some of them benefit more with paragon in part 4 than in part 3. Still, it shouldn't be free in 3-11 and 3-E.

It isn't free in 3-11 and 3-E, I never implied that. But saying the he ends up like the GM's and that they're better than him simply justifies them all being above him. In fact, if he turns out like High and Upper Mid units, why should he not be in at least Lower Mid? By 3-11 there are 2-3 Paragons, so 4 or 6 units can use it over the course of 3-11 and 3-E. Why, if Makalov is in play, should he not get one?

[grandjackal]

Marcia and Calill are only in mid, so I'm not stating that they are going to be there. And it is pretty free in 3-9. But it isn't like it was only Calill and Marcia. I was trying to use them as an example that even units in mid benefit from it. I guess I should have brought up how some of the GMs can end up benefitting. As I said, Makalov with paragon + crown gets to about where many of the GMs are without anything. Titania still has a long climb to 33 spd, so paragon benefits her. Gatrie needs to get speed to be doubling in early part 4 chapters, so he needs it. I'm sure there are others. But with the possibility that some of those others aren't in play or got stat boosters or something, the cost isn't enormous, I suppose. Plus some of them benefit more with paragon in part 4 than in part 3. Still, it shouldn't be free in 3-11 and 3-E.

It isn't free in 3-11 and 3-E, I never implied that. But saying the he ends up like the GM's and that they're better than him simply justifies them all being above him. In fact, if he turns out like High and Upper Mid units, why should he not be in at least Lower Mid? By 3-11 there are 2-3 Paragons, so 4 or 6 units can use it over the course of 3-11 and 3-E. Why, if Makalov is in play, should he not get one?

Perhaps you're confusing me a bit here, but if I may speak up on this...

Basically the paragon is free. If the GM are so damn good, they won't care to use it. Mak can use it to be just as good, and no reason to give it up. Why give it to them? They're already good. Besides, we got routes to worry about, the GM don't have the numbers to do it all just by themselves.

You could say Paragon just means they need it, but the thing is we have plenty, and he can get results just fine. Basically I'm saying skills are in fact better on others. I would even consider this with any other skill, like Adept.

After all, Mak by then has the speed, weapon selection and durability. You can go ahead and check the numbers, as Neph is not quite able to pull off the durability that Mak's able to. Trumps her in luck, HP, defense...Thunder to her Wind, canto to help with tiles, Alondite and Vague Katti (seriously, Vague Katti and a cover tile, things struggle to even hurt him).

Edited August 20, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Narga_Rocks]

Marcia and Calill are only in mid, so I'm not stating that they are going to be there. And it is pretty free in 3-9. But it isn't like it was only Calill and Marcia. I was trying to use them as an example that even units in mid benefit from it. I guess I should have brought up how some of the GMs can end up benefitting. As I said, Makalov with paragon + crown gets to about where many of the GMs are without anything. Titania still has a long climb to 33 spd, so paragon benefits her. Gatrie needs to get speed to be doubling in early part 4 chapters, so he needs it. I'm sure there are others. But with the possibility that some of those others aren't in play or got stat boosters or something, the cost isn't enormous, I suppose. Plus some of them benefit more with paragon in part 4 than in part 3. Still, it shouldn't be free in 3-11 and 3-E.

It isn't free in 3-11 and 3-E, I never implied that. But saying the he ends up like the GM's and that they're better than him simply justifies them all being above him. In fact, if he turns out like High and Upper Mid units, why should he not be in at least Lower Mid? By 3-11 there are 2-3 Paragons, so 4 or 6 units can use it over the course of 3-11 and 3-E. Why, if Makalov is in play, should he not get one?

I'd say 2 paragons is more likely. The trouble with Mak is he really does need it in both chapters. Anyway, since you moved up Lethe, I don't have a big issue with bumping him to lower mid. Provided they all stay below Ilyana, anyway. Being redeemable should be worth something. I'm not sure I'd say he turns out like High or Upper Mid units, though I suppose maybe he does get similar 4-E production. It's still just ~3 chapters, since he takes the first half of each pre endgame part 4 chapter to get going. He takes another ~3 chapters of being worse while having paragon and being fed kills.

Perhaps you're confusing me a bit here, but if I may speak up on this...

Basically the paragon is free. If the GM are so damn good, they won't care to use it. Mak can use it to be just as good, and no reason to give it up. Why give it to them? They're already good. Besides, we got routes to worry about, the GM don't have the numbers to do it all just by themselves.

But they aren't already all great. Gatrie isn't necessarily getting the 28 speed to double in 4-2, or the 29 to get the extra warriors in 4-1. Giving him some of that paragon gets him going. Titania only has a 50% speed growth, every extra level is almost another enemy type doubled. Oscar has a 24 tier 2 speed cap, so even promoting in 3-11 means he takes time to get to 28 speed. I'm sure there are others. Basically, with Mak we get the guy with less durability, a C level support and less str to a respectable level, or with the others we get more durability, more str, better supports. They are better, therefore they use paragon better. Since they fail to do things in part 4, giving them paragon lets them succeed on more. As for the routes, raising 6 or 7 GMs, plus the royals, maybe Jill or Nolan, we'll be fine. Don't really need to level up another <34 spd cap unit. Already enough competition for those braves as is.

You could say Paragon just means they need it, but the thing is we have plenty, and he can get results just fine. Basically I'm saying skills are in fact better on others. I would even consider this with any other skill, like Adept.

I'm confused.

After all, Mak by then has the speed, weapon selection and durability. You can go ahead and check the numbers, as Neph is not quite able to pull off the durability that Mak's able to. Trumps her in luck, HP, defense...Thunder to her Wind, canto to help with tiles, Alondite and Vague Katti (seriously, Vague Katti and a cover tile, things struggle to even hurt him).

Neph has 34 speed, doesn't really matter. Only slightly worse luck, ditto def, though thunder compounds the difference. Similar strength. Wishblade. And I'm really not sure why Makalov of all units would be getting the vague katti. Mia can ORKO a fair number of units he can't, depending on levels he might not even be able to 3HKO the generals in 4-E-1. Defence doesn't mean anything in 4-E-4, he'll be using a wyrmslayer in 4-E-3 anyway, and the only thing hitting defence in 4-E-5 is the first AoE attack. (Ashera should not be getting turn 4 enemy phase). Plus, he's only doubling thunder spirits in 4-E-4 and needs level 20/18 to ORKO thunder spirits (on cover tiles) with the vague katti, and can't double fire or wind anyway. Needs 45 mt to ORKO fire spirits not on cover tiles, and the brave axe means 43 mt at that level, so he needs to pull a +mt support, when most supports he might be getting are basically part of his competition for paragon in 3-11 and 3-E. (Calill, Marcia, Danved). Other supports I suppose are the new characters in part 4.

I suppose it isn't nice to say that since a unit is already worse it gets a worse weapon, compounding how much worse it is. But really, Mia is high tier. Elincia is near the top of upper mid. These aren't exactly unlikely users of Vague Katti and Alondite. (Zihark mostly would be better served with a silver critforge, given his inability to ORKO stuff even with the Vague Katti, though by 4-E-4 he's now competition for it as well.) Even Stefan is decent competition for those swords.

[grandjackal]

I'd say 2 paragons is more likely. The trouble with Mak is he really does need it in both chapters. Anyway, since you moved up Lethe, I don't have a big issue with bumping him to lower mid. Provided they all stay below Ilyana, anyway. Being redeemable should be worth something. I'm not sure I'd say he turns out like High or Upper Mid units, though I suppose maybe he does get similar 4-E production. It's still just ~3 chapters, since he takes the first half of each pre endgame part 4 chapter to get going. He takes another ~3 chapters of being worse while having paragon and being fed kills.

It's 3 rather important chapters I'd think, considering it's 3 chapters you can't refix who you bring into them once you're in.

But they aren't already all great. Gatrie isn't necessarily getting the 28 speed to double in 4-2, or the 29 to get the extra warriors in 4-1. Giving him some of that paragon gets him going. Titania only has a 50% speed growth, every extra level is almost another enemy type doubled. Oscar has a 24 tier 2 speed cap, so even promoting in 3-11 means he takes time to get to 28 speed. I'm sure there are others. Basically, with Mak we get the guy with less durability, a C level support and less str to a respectable level, or with the others we get more durability, more str, better supports. They are better, therefore they use paragon better. Since they fail to do things in part 4, giving them paragon lets them succeed on more. As for the routes, raising 6 or 7 GMs, plus the royals, maybe Jill or Nolan, we'll be fine. Don't really need to level up another <34 spd cap unit. Already enough competition for those braves as is.

Thing is with paragon, Makalov can be pretty much the same in that case, considering it would appear even high tiers would need paragon. We might not use everyone as said, and chances are most of endgame is just gonna be the royals. These people you mention with their better supports and such..Why would they need paragon if they pretty much have everything anwyays? Clearly they wouldn't need it.

I'm confused.

Let's take it to Adept.

Basically a unit can say "Hey, I can use Adept!" but the constant argument is always "But this person can use it better, so you aren't getting it". Thing is, again we might necessarily play said character. The option still exists. Mia indeed uses Adept better than Shinon, but Shinon is still an option to give Adept to. It should only matter when it's being discussed between two characters who can utilize Adept. Sort of like this.

Mordy can make up for his speed with his ability to better utilize Resolve.

"But others can use it!"

I don't see Naesala utilizing such skills for the time Mordy can.

OR

Shinon can utilize Adept to make up for the bit of might problems he might have. Thus he has it over the likes of Gatrie

But Mia puts it to better use!

Shinon is still a better option for it than Gatrie.

Gatrie wouldn't want Adept anyways

Goes like that. Basically what should be considered is if you're a viable option rather than the absolute best. This tier is such an "assuming high tiers are played" deal.

Neph has 34 speed, doesn't really matter. Only slightly worse luck, ditto def, though thunder compounds the difference. Similar strength. Wishblade. And I'm really not sure why Makalov of all units would be getting the vague katti. Mia can ORKO a fair number of units he can't, depending on levels he might not even be able to 3HKO the generals in 4-E-1. Defence doesn't mean anything in 4-E-4, he'll be using a wyrmslayer in 4-E-3 anyway, and the only thing hitting defence in 4-E-5 is the first AoE attack. (Ashera should not be getting turn 4 enemy phase). Plus, he's only doubling thunder spirits in 4-E-4 and needs level 20/18 to ORKO thunder spirits (on cover tiles) with the vague katti, and can't double fire or wind anyway. Needs 45 mt to ORKO fire spirits not on cover tiles, and the brave axe means 43 mt at that level, so he needs to pull a +mt support, when most supports he might be getting are basically part of his competition for paragon in 3-11 and 3-E. (Calill, Marcia, Danved). Other supports I suppose are the new characters in part 4.

Mak has access to the brave axe, so you can shove your 34 AS.

Wishblade doesn't appear till basically after 4-E-2 with the Alondite, of which I should say Mak's got access to the Vague Katti in that time beforehand. Then factor in Hammers (sorry, 3RKOing generals?) and Wyrmslayers. Defense won't mean much past 4-E-3, but you forget Mak's got Canto to utilize, and can avoid attacks with the use of Alondite.

Also, your assumption on defense not meaning much in 4-E-3, with one of the two +5 Def boosting swords and his 30 Def, cover+Night Tide can actually give him 50 def. Even Gatrie would need a full defense boosting support to pull that off...Wait! Mak's got a defense affinity too! So under best conditions, Mak can manage 53 Def.

9x Red Dragon lvl 25 (S Strike)

75 hp, 58 atk, 13 AS, 166 hit, 63 avo, 36 def, 20 res, 10 crit, 12 cev

6x Red Dragon lvl 26 (S Strike)

76 hp, 58 atk, 13 AS, 167.5 hit, 63.5 avo, 36.5 def, 20 res, 10 crit, 12.5 cev

8x Red Dragon lvl 27

77 hp, 58 atk, 13 AS, 169 hit, 64 avo, 37 def, 20 res, 10 crit, 13 cev

It would appear they are only doing 5 damage to Mak's 53 HP. Even with just Alondite, he's still managing to survive 3 blasts. With just a cover tile, it's a 4RKO. Cover tile, Alondite and a full defense support and it's a 5RKO. Neph's not pulling anywhere near these numbers. Also, while Impale might fire off more often than Sol, Sol can heal him back up so he's able to keep his durability up free of charge. Considering he's got wyrmslayer access as well, I'd have a hard time imagine he couldn't kill a dragon with a blast of Sol.

White dragons would be a bit more of a problem, but at least canto could bring you back to a healer or behind a group to keep himself safe regardless.

I suppose it isn't nice to say that since a unit is already worse it gets a worse weapon, compounding how much worse it is. But really, Mia is high tier. Elincia is near the top of upper mid. These aren't exactly unlikely users of Vague Katti and Alondite. (Zihark mostly would be better served with a silver critforge, given his inability to ORKO stuff even with the Vague Katti, though by 4-E-4 he's now competition for it as well.) Even Stefan is decent competition for those swords.

Again, it's not like we're bringing every single sword user to endgame just to gimp Mak out of every single sword we can think of. The fact that Mak can effectively wield just about all of the best endgame weapons we can imagine just by himself should be considered.

[Ether]

So then,will Mia move up?Even Kirsche,who opposed it the most,agreed Mia should be over Ulki at least,and I just don't see how Janaff's small leads override her availability lead.

[Florete]

Well, Mia > Ulki doesn't look like a problem at this point. Mia > Janaff does.

If Mia goes over Janaff, it either means she goes over Gatrie or Gatrie goes up with her. Gatrie > Mia was proven pretty well, and Janaff > Gatrie was also agreed upon, so Mia > Janaff doesn't work out so well. Personally, I'd say Janaff > Mia anyway, since 100% ORKOing most things > whatever% Mia has, and 6 more maps, 2 of which she's kind of average, likely isn't enough to make up for it. And even when Mia's offense catched up, Janaff always flies.

[Ether]

Well, Mia > Ulki doesn't look like a problem at this point. Mia > Janaff does.

If Mia goes over Janaff, it either means she goes over Gatrie or Gatrie goes up with her. Gatrie > Mia was proven pretty well, and Janaff > Gatrie was also agreed upon, so Mia > Janaff doesn't work out so well. Personally, I'd say Janaff > Mia anyway, since 100% ORKOing most things > whatever% Mia has, and 6 more maps, 2 of which she's kind of average, likely isn't enough to make up for it. And even when Mia's offense catched up, Janaff always flies.

Could you show me where these were proven.

Anyway.Janaff has his offense advantage,right?I guess,he has a 3 More Att than Mia,but does it really matter right now.

1x Warrior lvl 10 (Hand Axe)

HP 42, Atk 32, AS 20, Hit 125, Avo 55, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 15

1x Warrior lvl 10 (Crossbow)

HP 41, Atk 28, AS 20, Hit 155, Avo 55, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 15

1x Warrior lvl 11 (Crossbow)

HP 42, Atk 28, AS 21, Hit 156, Avo 58, DEF 16, RES 10, Crit 10, Ddg 16

1x Halberdier lvl 9 (Steel Greatlance)

HP 37, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 123, Avo 53, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 13

1x Halberdier lvl 9 (Short Spear)

HP 37, Atk 29, AS 20, Hit 109, Avo 54, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 14

2x Halberdier lvl 10 (Steel Lance)

HP 37, Atk 29, AS 20, Hit 139, Avo 54, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 14

1x Halberdier lvl 9 (Steel Lance)

HP 37, Atk 29, AS 20, Hit 134, Avo 54, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 14

1x Halberdier lvl 11 (Killer Lance)

HP 38, Atk 29, AS 20, Hit 135, Avo 55, DEF 20, RES 14, Crit 45, Ddg 15

3x Swordmaster lvl 10 (Steel Blade)

HP 34, Atk 30, AS 24, Hit 126, Avo 63, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 21, Ddg 15

1x Swordmaster lvl 11 (Wyrmslayer)

HP 34, Atk 29, AS 24, Hit 133, Avo 63, DEF 17, RES 11, Crit 22, Ddg 15

1x Swordmaster lvl 11 (Storm Sword)

HP 34, Atk 30, AS 24, Hit 114, Avo 64, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 22, Ddg 16

2x Axe General lvl 11 (Short Axe)

HP 39, Atk 35, AS 17, Hit 116, Avo 50, DEF 25, RES 15, Crit 10, Ddg 16

1x Lance General lvl 11 (Short Spear)

HP 40, Atk 32, AS 18, Hit 111, Avo 52, DEF 25, RES 15, Crit 10, Ddg 16

1x Sniper lvl 9 (Steel Bow)

HP 38, Atk 30, AS 20, Hit 138, Avo 54, DEF 17, RES 12, Crit 21, Ddg 14

1x Sniper lvl 11 (Steel Longbow)

HP 38, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 122, Avo 56, DEF 18, RES 12, Crit 21, Ddg 16

4x Wind Sage lvl 10 (Elwind, one has Thunder secondary)

HP 33, Atk 28, AS 18, Hit 136, Avo 48, DEF 12, RES 17, Crit 8, Ddg 12

1x wind Sage lvl 11 (Elwind)

HP 33, Atk 28, AS 18, Hit 136, Avo 48, DEF 12, RES 18, Crit 8, Ddg 12

2x Thunder Sage lvl 11 (Elthunder)

HP 24, Atk 26, AS 18, Hit 124, Avo 49, DEF 12, RES 17, Crit 19, Ddg 13

1x Thunder Sage lvl 10 (Elthunder)

HP 33, Atk 26, AS 17, Hit 123, Avo 46, DEF 12, RES 17, Crit 19, Ddg 12

1x Thunder Sage lvl 12 (Elthunder)

HP 34, Atk 26, AS 19, Hit 124, Avo 51, DEF 12, RES 18, Crit 19, Ddg 13

2x Fire Sage lvl 10 (Elfire)

HP 33, Atk 27, AS 18, Hit 132, Avo 49, DEF 12, RES 17, Crit 8, Ddg 13

2x Dragonmaster lvl 11 (Steel Poleax)

HP 41, Atk 38, AS 19, Hit 113, Avo 51, DEF 21, RES 7, Crit 10, Ddg 13

1x Dragonmaster lvl 10 (Steel Axe)

HP 40, Atk 34, AS 18, Hit 127, Avo 48, DEF 21, RES 7, Crit 10, Ddg 12

2x Bishop lvl 7 (Physic)

HP 29, Atk --, AS 16, Hit --, Avo 51, DEF 10, RES 21, Crit --, Ddg 19

1x Bishop lvl 8 (Physic, Mend)

HP 29, Atk --, AS 16, Hit --, Avo 52, DEF 11, RES 21, Crit --, Ddg 20

Various DB members.

Reinforcements:

Turn 2, northeast -- Ulki/Janaff

Turn 3, south --

1x Dragonmaster lvl 11 (Steel Axe)

HP 41, Atk 34, AS 18, Hit 129, Avo 48, DEF 21, RES 8, Crit 10, Ddg 12

Turn 3, west --

1x Dragonmaster lvl 11 (Steel Lance)

HP 41, Atk 33, AS 18, Hit 133, Avo 49, DEF 21, RES 8, Crit 10, Ddg 13

Turn 4, southwest --

1x Halberdier lvl 10 (Steel Lance)

HP 37, Atk 29, AS 20, Hit 134, Avo 54, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 14

1x Halberdier lvl 11 (Steel Lance)

HP 38, Atk 30, AS 20, Hit 135, Avo 55, DEF 20, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 15

Turn 5, west --

1x Dragonmaster lvl 11 (Steel Greatlance)

HP 41, Atk 37, AS 19, Hit 123, Avo 51, DEF 21, RES 8, Crit 10, Ddg 13

Turn 6, southwest --

2x Swordmaster lvl 11 (Steel Blade)

HP 35, Atk 31, AS 24, Hit 127, Avo 64, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 21, Ddg 16

1x Sniper lvl 11 (Steel Bow)

HP 39, Atk 31, AS 20, Hit 141, Avo 55, DEF 18, RES 12, Crit 21, Ddg 15

Turn 8, southeast --

1x Dragonmaster lvl 11 (Steel Poleax)

HP 40, Atk 38, AS 19, Hit 115, Avo 51, DEF 21, RES 8, Crit 10, Ddg 13

1x Dragonmaster lvl 11 (Hand Axe)

HP 40, Atk 32, AS 19, Hit 122, Avo 50, DEF 21, RES 8, Crit 10, Ddg 12

Turn 8, southwest --

2x Warrior lvl 11 (Steel Poleax)

HP 42, Atk 38, AS 21, Hit 115, Avo 57, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 15

1x Warrior lvl 11 (Crossbow)

HP 42, Atk 28, AS 21, Hit 155, Avo 57, DEF 17, RES 10, Crit 10, Ddg 15

So he does better against Generals and Halb's,while against everything else they either tie or she wins due to higher proc %.Fun fact,with a single level of BEXP,she ORKO's Halb's and 3HKO's most generals,just like Janaff.In fact,he only pulls a HKO lead against 4 enemies if she got a BEXP level,or if she Procs Str during the map.Plus she rapes him vs Dragonmasters because of Wyrmslayers.

Durability wise,as I said earlier,by the time she is facing chances to die that are even notable,Janaff will have reverted unless he was at full gauge or something like that.Plus If she activates vantage,she then has a good shot at not even getting hit by most things.Fro now let's say that 20% of enemies that attack her don't get a hit in,and we see that while they were similar before,Mia is winning now.

Flight is nice and all,but he is more limited than Haar because,actually I made an error earlier,they are both OHKO'd by crossbows.Not to mention that supply burning and cliffs happened already.The only chapter left in part 3 where flying is notable is the bridge,since even dodging obstacles isn't that big when,oh look,it gave Mia 10 more avoid.

Add to this that Mia can utilize 1-2 range if it would be beneficial to her,and that she doesn't have gauge issues,as well as her availability lead,I can't see Janaff over her.

In fact,I can't really see him over Gatrie either.

14/1 Gatrie has 44 att with a steel poleax and doubles,and he probably gained a level or two since he crowned,so he stomps Janaff,since he also has superior durability.Flight and Move are partially cancelled out by gauge,and Gatrie still has a chapter lead,as well as an offense and defense lead.If Gatrie being crowned is a problem,then he becomes worse than Mia as well,so no problems there.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Ether

[charmander6000]

IIRC Gatrie vs. the Hawks became whether or not getting the Master Crown was a negative (IMO it's not, see Mia with Adept). Everyone got tired arguing and decided to compromise by putting Gatrie in the middle of the two.

[Ether]

IIRC Gatrie vs. the Hawks became whether or not getting the Master Crown was a negative (IMO it's not, see Mia with Adept). Everyone got tired arguing and decided to compromise by putting Gatrie in the middle of the two.

If Gatrie can't be > Janaff because his crown is a negative,then the same applies with Mia. Gatrie is only > Mia if he has his crown.

[Interceptor]

Well, the Mia argument totally got Colin Powell Doctrined by Narga. I don't think even *I* have ever written something that in-depth about her before. Well done.

You know, this topic is slow for days in which I have nothing to do, then the one day I'm busy from noon to 11 and there is stuff about Mia and Mak and Danved get moved up, it's kind of annoying.

Welcome to how I feel every Monday morning.

I'd give you a cookie, but Shinon is really good for endgame and Soren isn't.

I never said that they had to go to Endgame. Shinon gets his Double Bow by that point, and he can start a C with Naesala or something if he really wants a little +atk. I will give you a cookie for trying -- {:::} -- but I demand a cookie of my own.

Well, Mia > Ulki doesn't look like a problem at this point. Mia > Janaff does.

If Mia goes over Janaff, it either means she goes over Gatrie or Gatrie goes up with her. Gatrie > Mia was proven pretty well, and Janaff > Gatrie was also agreed upon, so Mia > Janaff doesn't work out so well. Personally, I'd say Janaff > Mia anyway, since 100% ORKOing most things > whatever% Mia has, and 6 more maps, 2 of which she's kind of average, likely isn't enough to make up for it. And even when Mia's offense catched up, Janaff always flies.

Bull shit that Janaff > Gatrie was agreed on. That was the lamest tier agreement ever, people were just tired of fighting about it and compromised so that we didn't spend another week talking about doritos opportunity cost as it applied to the 3-3 crown.

I still maintain that despite the whinging from people who don't like availbility arguments, Gatrie is has an easy ~40% availbility edge over them, and that matters even in a world with negative utiltiy since he's still amongst your best units in early Part 3. The hawks are not so good that they can possibly overcome this. I don't agree with the logic that pwning the shit out of a few chapters beats being really good in a significantly larger number of chapters, because otherwise we'd have GameFAQs Normal Mode Tier List 2007 all over again, with Tibarn in Top tier.

And speaking of which, one of the arguments that people loved bringing up was that Gatrie starts running into doubling problems again in Part 4. Well, the thing is, Mia has A support for durability by this point, and if you are having trouble double-attacking, then I guarantee that she is kicking your ass six ways to Sunday, which undermines the idea that Gatrie is significantly better than her.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Interceptor

[Ether]

Well, the Mia argument totally got Colin Powell Doctrined by Narga. I don't think even *I* have ever written something that in-depth about her before. Well done.

You know, this topic is slow for days in which I have nothing to do, then the one day I'm busy from noon to 11 and there is stuff about Mia and Mak and Danved get moved up, it's kind of annoying.

Welcome to how I feel every Monday morning.

I'd give you a cookie, but Shinon is really good for endgame and Soren isn't.

I never said that they had to go to Endgame. Shinon gets his Double Bow by that point, and he can start a C with Naesala or something if he really wants a little +atk. I will give you a cookie for trying -- {:::} -- but I demand a cookie of my own.

Well, Mia > Ulki doesn't look like a problem at this point. Mia > Janaff does.

If Mia goes over Janaff, it either means she goes over Gatrie or Gatrie goes up with her. Gatrie > Mia was proven pretty well, and Janaff > Gatrie was also agreed upon, so Mia > Janaff doesn't work out so well. Personally, I'd say Janaff > Mia anyway, since 100% ORKOing most things > whatever% Mia has, and 6 more maps, 2 of which she's kind of average, likely isn't enough to make up for it. And even when Mia's offense catched up, Janaff always flies.

Bull shit that Janaff > Gatrie was agreed on. That was the lamest tier agreement ever, people were just tired of fighting about it and compromised so that we didn't spend another week talking about doritos opportunity cost as it applied to the 3-3 crown.

I still maintain that despite the whinging from people who don't like availbility arguments, Gatrie is has an easy ~40% availbility edge over them, and that matters even in a world with negative utiltiy since he's still amongst your best units in early Part 3. The hawks are not so good that they can possibly overcome this. I don't agree with the logic that pwning the shit out of a few chapters beats being really good in a significantly larger number of chapters, because otherwise we'd have GameFAQs Normal Mode Tier List 2007 all over again, with Tibarn in Top tier.

And speaking of which, one of the arguments that people loved bringing up was that Gatrie starts running into doubling problems again in Part 4. Well, the thing is, Mia has A support for durability by this point, and if you are having trouble double-attacking, then I guarantee that she is kicking your ass six ways to Sunday, which undermines the idea that Gatrie is significantly better than her.

^This. Basically he wins against what she doesn't ORKO,which she does a lot of by 3-7,as I showed earlier,but,she then wins come part 4.And this is only if he's crowned.If his crown is such a negative that he has to be below Janaff,than he has no reason to be above Mia.

Maybe I'm pushing it,but I could even see her above Nailah.By the time part 4 rolls around,Mia has hit near invincibility status.(On average she faces around 5.5% true hit in 4-1,although the highest hit guy has around 24% true hit,he has a lolCrossbow,and is 10HKOing her.The next best guy has around 17% true hit,and he 6hko's her.)

On the offensive,Mia is ORKOing anything that isn't a general,and she still has her massive Proc rates against them.

Since Mia has good 1-2 range now(she has a full use tempest blade,and gets another one in 4-4),I would say she beats Nailah pre endgame,since countering 1-2 range should be > killing generals(since Mia has like an 80% chance to do so anyway)

During endgame,It's Nailah being better against Dheg versus Mia doubling Auras without Nasir,so I'd say they are about even here as well.

So essentially it's Nailah's part 1 versus Mia's part 3

Nailah is great for 1-8 and 1-E,no question,but Muarim and BK + all your other prepromos and Volug are raping pretty hard as well,and these are only two chapters.

While Mia has 2 chapters of being average and 9! chapters of rape.Are 1-8 and 1-E so massive as to be > Mia`s part 3,I don`t think so.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Ether

[Colonel M]

The problem is everyone kept tossing around "the crown" being a negative when it should've been assumed that he was able to obtain it anyway. It's similair to the Adept!Mia argument: why give it to someone else when the person using the item is using it best? Early promotion is fine to argue with anyway. It's true that anyone can practically do it but that doesn't mean that Gatrie taking the item suddenly becomes a negative.

Also, can we please stop with the "person X gets shitstomped / outclassed / has to compete with person y" argument? This is getting to the point where it's sickening to look at.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Colonel M

[Ether]

The problem is everyone kept tossing around "the crown" being a negative when it should've been assumed that he was able to obtain it anyway. It's similair to the Adept!Mia argument: why give it to someone else when the person using the item is using it best? Early promotion is fine to argue with anyway. It's true that anyone can practically do it but that doesn't mean that Gatrie taking the item suddenly becomes a negative.

Also, can we please stop with the "person X gets shitstomped by person y" argument? This is getting to the point where it's sickening to look at.

There you go.If Gatrie gets his crown than they should both be > Janaff

Edited August 20, 2009 by Ether

[grandjackal]

I can agree with Mia and Gatling Cannon over Janaff. You could say that Gatrie getting the crown is a negative (of which it isn't), but then again so would Janaff getting a Satori sign, or a skill.

I also agree with colonel on the "but he has to compete with person x". It should only be considered when measured next to said person, as when someone is a viable option for something, it's an advantage they'd still have over another character (Like Lethe, she can use Adept better than most. Though she is not the best cantidate, it helps her far more than it helps some others, namely those who can't double and those with less speed regardless). Sort of like Skill Tiers. Basically if you're in a skill tier, you have the advantage of putting said skill to best use over the rest of the cast, thus it is your advantage to have as said character is still a viable option.Example being who contests Mordy getting Resolve? No one, yet it's been said guys like Boyd and such can put it to good use as well. Therefore both would have the advantage of being able to put Resolve to good use, though Mordy might be the more viable option for it.