H5 Tier list topic

[grandjackal]

Like hell it was. Thomas has actual ways to become useful in a relevant point in time (early promo helps, his main problem is archer is a shitty class).

[Rodykitty]

I decided not to hold it against Thomas for using a Master Seal since that's an that affects many characters and it's not helping Rickard any. That, and you get Master Seals for free.

Cleric was brought up as an option to get Thomas up to level 10 and avoid having to be an Archer.

[_____]

Like hell it was. Thomas has actual ways to become useful in a relevant point in time (early promo helps, his main problem is archer is a shitty class).

Actually, it was, so yeah.

I decided not to hold it against Thomas for using a Master Seal since that's an that affects many characters and it's not helping Rickard any. That, and you get Master Seals for free.

What the fuck, man? You've counted it against every unpromoted unit by giving prepromotes points for not using Master Seals, but when it comes down to having Rickard rise, you make up this stupid bullshit. I'm getting tired of it. If you don't want Rickard to rise, stop changing the rules to help your case. If you can't stop, you shouldn't run the list.

If you aren't counting the Master Seal against him (total bullshit), then he's basically an inferior version of Midia.

Again, Rickard has 42 chests that can only be picked by Julian, Marth, or himself. Midia and Tomas still suck at combat throughout their entire lives (don't give me this "but Rickard sucks at combat, too" bullshit retort, because I know that. It's not Rickard's combat vs. Tomas/Midia's combat. It's Rickard's lock-picking vs. Tomas/Midia's combat, which Rickard soundly wins).

Cleric was brought up as an option to get Thomas up to level 10 and avoid having to be an Archer.

Doesn't really matter. E staves isn't helping anyone.

[Rodykitty]

What the fuck, man? You've counted it against every unpromoted unit by giving prepromotes points for not using Master Seals, but when it comes down to having Rickard rise, you make up this stupid bullshit. I'm getting tired of it. If you don't want Rickard to rise, stop changing the rules to help your case. If you can't stop, you shouldn't run the list.

Here's the difference...

Minerva doesn't need a Master Seal.

Rickard does.

[_____]

Here's the difference...

Minerva doesn't need a Master Seal.

Rickard does.

...

What the hell are you smoking? That doesn't make sense and it isn't even relevant.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Rickard needs a promotion...? What..?

[Colonel M]

Actually I'm trying to piece how Minerva got dragged into this.

[_____]

Maybe he meant to say Midia? No, even if Midia was there, it wouldn't make sense...

[Rodykitty]

Rickard needs a promotion...? What..?

He needs one badly, but he doesn't get one, while Thomas can get one.

Actually I'm trying to piece how Minerva got dragged into this.

Because Minerva was one (if only, AFAIK) characters where that argument benefitted a character.

Of course, the character Minerva was compared to, Katua, got shot down the tier list anyway.

[_____]

...

Chainey.

What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

Seriously. You aren't even thinking before you're responding. It's extremely difficult to try to argue with you when you post shit like that.

For the record, Jeorge > Gordin was originally based on Gordin needing a Master Crown.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Ninji

[Colonel M]

If anything it would've been Jeorge not needing training to be efficient and powerful bows helping his offense. Only real way Gordin can function is... Curate -> Sniper being meh.

[Rodykitty]

George is above Gordon for other reasons as well.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[_____]

If anything it would've been Jeorge not needing training to be efficient and powerful bows helping his offense. Only real way Gordin can function is... Curate -> Sniper being meh.

George is above Gordon for other reasons as well.

You can not deny that it was a contributing factor.

[Rodykitty]

You can not deny that it was a contributing factor.

Maybe if Rickard had promoted bases off the bat like these guys and a decent weapon level this would mean something.

[_____]

Maybe if Rickard had promoted bases off the bat like these guys and a decent weapon level this would mean something.

For the last fucking time, I'm not arguing Rickard against someone like Jeorge, who has promoted bases and a good weapon level.

I'm arguing Rickard against Tomas/Midia, who have bases that might as well be unpromoted (nevermind that Tomas starts unpromoted) and have Steel Bows, which means they suck at combat for their entire lives, just like Rickard. The only difference in their combat is the magnitude of suck. Meanwhile, Rickard has 42 chests with valuable items in them that only he, Julian, and Marth can access. I don't give a fuck if Rickard has horrible combat, but I do care about his God damn utility, and this utility > still sucking hard at combat.

And don't you dare give me this "Tomas and Midia aren't that bad at combat!" bullshit, because Colonel M (for the earlygame stats) and I have shown how badly they suck.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Ninji

[Rodykitty]

For the last fucking time, I'm not arguing Rickard against someone like Jeorge, who has promoted bases and a good weapon level.

And Thomas can get these promoted bases and has a great weapon level.

and have Steel Bows

Promotion for Thomas is Auto-Silvers.

[_____]

And Thomas can get these promoted bases

He has the same bases as Midia.

and has a great weapon level.

Promotion for Thomas is Auto-Silvers.

Tomas > Midia. Auto-Silver early on >>>>>>> slightly better stat growths.

Anyway, it still doesn't change a thing. You didn't respond to a single thing I said about Rickard's utility > their mediocre at best combat. Either come up with an argument or make the change.

[Rodykitty]

All Rickard is really doing that is increasing efficiency is opening doors for people and letting Marth not grab a chest. Thomas and/or Midia may actually be able to remove or weaken an enemy on the battle field, which, believe it or not, increases efficiency as well because it's less work for everyone else. Let's not ignore these two can go healing classes full time as well.

Otherwise, while Midia and her crew suck, Rickard has been sucking for much longer than they have, sucking much harder, and never able to do anything about his suck except the aforementioned utility, and it's a very situational utility.

And just so I am not seeming biased, I've tried to lower Marth several times (or at least keep characters from going below him), and Julian used to be much lower until we learned his early game is not as bad as we thought.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[_____]

All Rickard is really doing that is increasing efficiency is opening doors for people and letting Marth not grab a chest. Thomas and/or Midia may actually be able to remove or weaken an enemy on the battle field, which, believe it or not, increases efficiency as well because it's less work for everyone else. Let's not ignore these two can go healing classes full time as well.

Otherwise, while Midia and her crew suck, Rickard has been sucking for much longer than they have, sucking much harder, and never able to do anything about his suck except the aforementioned utility, and it's a very situational utility.

You call Rickard's utility situational when 64% of the chapters he's in have chests and doors that need picking, while saying that Tomas/Midia picking off a weakened enemy isn't situational? Let's not forget that Rickard is actually still a little useful until the endgame, whereas Tomas and Midia might as well be killed off right after the midgame ends and the lategame starts. Yes, Rickard has been sucking at combat for longer than the other two, but he's also been contributing positively in 5 out of the 8 chapters he's been around before they even join.

You mention healing utility, but it is in no way unique, and D staves aren't helping anyone at this point. Any staff user you have should have a C, nearly a B in staves.

I've already pointed out that you get a shitload of money from chests, and the fact that Rickard has the ability to get it is a very good thing.

And just so I am not seeming biased, I've tried to lower Marth several times, and Julian used to be much lower until we learned his early game is not as bad as we thought.

That's not the point. Julian and Marth don't need to drop. Rickard needs to go above these putzes.

I wouldn't dream of doing Rickard vs. Samson/Astram, anyway. They aren't total combat failures.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Ninji

[Rodykitty]

You call Rickard's utility situational when 64% of the chapters he's in have chests and doors that need picking

Yes, because fighting enemies happens on more turns than unlocking does.

while saying that Tomas/Midia picking off a weakened enemy isn't situational?

No, weakening for others, though mooching an already weakened enemy can be beneficial to maximize damage output onto other enemies on the player phase.

You mention healing utility, but it is in no way unique

Neither is Thief utility.

and D staves aren't helping anyone at this point.

Mend is perfectly fine for healing.

I've already pointed out that you get a shitload of money from chests, and the fact that Rickard has the ability to get it is a very good thing.

I'm not going to auto-rise him for this. It'll just be a slippery slope that can lead him to top tier, and he's certainly not that kind of material.

[_____]

Yes, because fighting enemies happens on more turns than unlocking does.

However, the overall net gain of Rickard's thieving vs. Midia/Tomas' combat is in Rickard's favor. He doesn't need to be fielded in maps where there are no chests/doors to pick, anyway, so I don't really know how he could build up negative utility.

No, weakening for others, though mooching an already weakened enemy can be beneficial to maximize damage output onto other enemies on the player phase.

Anyone can mooch an already weakened enemy, buddy. It's not special. Hell, Rickard with a forged Iron can pick off weakened Pirates in 6x if he wanted to.

Neither is Thief utility.

Compared to healing? Hmmm... Everyone in Class Set A vs. Julian, Marth, and Rickard.

That's a bit of a blowout, not to mention Vulneries are available.

Mend is perfectly fine for healing.

No Warp. No Physic. No durability. No offense.

It's pretty useless.

I'm not going to auto-rise him for this. It'll just be a slippery slope that can lead him to top tier, and he's certainly not that kind of material.

I've already assured you that I have no plans of raising him above Astram/Samson. That would be ludicrous. I have, however, shown that Rickard is a lot more useful than these guys, Chainey. You can't not raise him because there's a chance someone might try to raise him above the likes of Samson and Astram.

[Rodykitty]

But I can not raise him because I am not convinced his thief utility is significant enough for me to do so.

No Warp. No Physic. No durability. No offense.

It's pretty useless.

Gotten eventually. Mend is fine as a start.

He doesn't need to be fielded in maps where there are no chests/doors to pick, anyway, so I don't really know how he could build up negative utility.

Not so much negative utility as much as having such a small positive, though attempting to train him to bring out hte most in him *will* result in a negative, while the opposite is true for those above him.

Anyone can mooch an already weakened enemy, buddy. It's not special. Hell, Rickard with a forged Iron can pick off weakened Pirates in 6x if he wanted to.

Let's give Midia and Thomas forges too. In fact, a forge solves all of Midia's problems while a forge solves none of Rickard's. Edited August 31, 2009 by Brawl Sheeda

[_____]

But I can not raise him because I am not convinced his thief utility is significant enough for me to do so.

Here's the thing. You won't be convinced until someone like BB or Sirius comes in here and and starts saying exactly what I'm saying, which is in no way how a tier list should work. If you wanted it to be comprised of just the people you trust, you should have made it in private, or something.

Gotten eventually. Mend is fine as a start.

Here's the thing. D starting staves and horrible combat and defensive parameters don't beat thieving at all. And before you say "But Rickard has horrible combat/defense", do you really want to go into thieving for 6 earlier chapters and helpful until Endgame vs. D starting staves at chapter 12?

Not so much negative utility as much as having such a small positive, though attempting to train him to bring out hte most in him *will* result in a negative, while the opposite is true for those above him.

"Such a small positive" is a vast understatement. I've already shown numerous times that only the select group of Rickard, Julian, and Marth can reach the 42 chests with very valuable items that are put throughout the game. I guess needing shielding is a bit of a negative, but this in no way is enough to put the utility anywhere close to "such a small positive". By the way, since Midia/Tomas are dreadful to start, still pretty bad in the midgame, and then suck really hard again in the lategame, wouldn't they have amassed quite a bit of negative utility? That seems like enough to push Rickard ahead of them.

Also, Rickard doesn't need levels to do what he does since he won't improve from them, so I don't give a shit if training him would result in a negative.

Let's give Midia and Thomas forges too. In fact, a forge solves all of Midia's problems while a forge solves none of Rickard's.

One, it was merely a hypothetical, showing that Rickard can also do what you said.

Secondly, a forge does not solve Midia's terrible defense (which actually matters for her, because she's fighting) and it still doesn't get her doubling, so, no, it doesn't solve any of her problems.

Thirdly, Rickard has the possibility to earn you so much money that a forge on an Iron Sword really makes no difference whatsoever.

Lastly, you are missing the point. I was trying to show that if Midia and Tomas can pick off enemies and be called a positive, Rickard can do it too, and still have his utility.

Also, you didn't respond to the fact that anyone in Class Set A can heal, but only Rickard, Julian, and Marth can pick locks.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Ninji

[Dat Nick]

You won't be convinced until someone like BB or Sirius comes in here and and starts saying exactly what I'm saying, which is in no way how a tier list should work.

well don't look at me

I've made it quite clear where I stand in this debate, yeah?

Might want to tune down the confidence a bit

D starting staves and horrible combat and defensive parameters don't beat thieving at all.

D Starting staves is only 23 uses to C. Spam uses and it's fine.

"Such a small positive" is a vast understatement. I've already shown numerous times that only the select group of Rickard, Julian, and Marth can reach the 42 chests with very valuable items that are put throughout the game.

I've already shown numerous times that Rickard is not in any way, shape, or form, required for these chests.

By the way, since Midia/Tomas are dreadful to start, still pretty bad in the midgame, and then suck really hard again in the lategame, wouldn't they have amassed quite a bit of negative utility? That seems like enough to push Rickard ahead of them.

hm? Thomas is only bad at his VERY start. 2 levels, seal, that's gone. He's better than Medea now, in fact [better stats and bow rank] furthermore, enlighten me on how Midia's midgame is "bad".

Secondly, a forge does not solve Midia's terrible defense (which actually matters for her, because she's fighting)

You're right, a forge doesn't solve it, bows do instead.

and it still doesn't get her doubling

you're right again, she's doing that on her own. 4 levels is all she needs to double cavs/archers.

brb chest maps

6: Gonna have to warp-kill here

9: 1 and 2 are right on the way pretty much, 3 likely needs a warp/thief kill

10: RIght on the way and you'll likely kill the thief for one anyway

There's a huge honking room which gets opened near the end of the chapter anyway, and Rickard isn't any more helpful than Marth for getting the boots in the SE room.

Right on the way AGAIN, and thief killing is still a viable way to get them as there's two theives who nab the chests at roughly the same time

15: It's not that far out of the way, and having a flier kill the thief is easy anyway

17: Treasure room just like 12, so really no issue

17x: Might be a problem here, but you have a lot of warp uses by now, on the flip side.

19: see above

20x: a split easily solved by a single warp staff

23: The thief tries to nab them anyway, have the flier kill the sob then use the draco's 10 move to get back into the action or hey, Warp: I mean, Hammerne and all

24: Oh look, fire mamkutes all over the damn place.

24x: ...Really?

Master Ninji, please enlighten me on how these chests inconvenience us so. It would save such a piddling amount of turns I honestly think you'd save more just fielding a competent combat unit, meaning Rickard has yet again defeated his own purpose.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Joker

[Rewjeo]

I've already shown numerous times that Rickard is not in any way, shape, or form, required for these chests.

Midia and Tomas are not in any way, shape, or form required to kill enemies or heal your units.

Master Ninji, please enlighten me on how these chests inconvenience us so. It would save such a piddling amount of turns I honestly think you'd save more just fielding a competent combat unit, meaning Rickard has yet again defeated his own purpose.

I'd also prefer to play a good combat unit instead of Midia or Tomas, meaning Midia and Tomas have defeated their own purpose.

Might I also point out that even spending a few turns more is hurting your efficiency. It's not like Rickard has to be on the front line. More likely, he's hanging towards the back where he's safe without you even setting up a wall, and then he can go run into a room with chests and Marth can move ahead to seize sooner. Even if he's only saving us two turns on each of those chapters, that's adding up to 26 turns that we didn't spend. Are Midia and Tomas doing that?