Alternate HM tier list

[Da Bear]

Looking good so far... a few things though.

Donnel > Virion?

Vaike > Miriel?

Henry and Tharja > Lon'qu?

I can give more on each if you would like I'm just wondering about a few things...

[General Horace]

Lon'qu should really not be above Sumia or Cordelia, let alone Panne. Even with a Seal, he has to work out of E axes, and unlike Panne, his stats aren't really sufficient.

Edited May 15, 2013 by General Horace

[Chiki]

Donnel is shit.

I can see Miriel going above Vaike.

And Lon'qu is crap unless he uses an SS.

And Lon'qu is moving down. But above Sumia and Cordelia--they have issues with bow users and are really not too special without Galeforce. But if you disagree I'm open to changing my mind.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Olwen

[General Horace]

Lon'qu's durability as a Wyvern Rider is still pretty poor, since his base HP is pretty bad and his defence growth is 5% higher than Sumia's as a Wyvern Rider, so he'll have similar issues with bows, and he's probably a little worse than Cordelia defensively, especially if he goes Griffon Rider for Deliverer, along with having to get out of his E axes rut and he's initially pretty slow as a wyvern rider, a 10/1 wyvern lon'qu only has 12 strength and 12 speed, which is pretty terrible. Most enemies in Chapter 9 have 10-11 AS, so he's missing a lot of doubling there as well, unless he's taking a +speed support, but his support list more or less limits him to Cordelia to get that and well, it's not a good idea to have two flying units paired unless they're galeforcing or something.

Edited May 15, 2013 by General Horace

[charlie_]

Sumia still ORKOes pretty much everything earlygame with the right rescources and much better mobility than Lon'qu (especially with Frederick), along with a bit more avaliability. She has 2 range from the start, Lon'qu doesn't have it till he works his way up to Wyvern, then D Axes. Hold on, gonna steal one of my analysis' from the tier list thread.

---

What I'm saying is if for some reason you're giving Frederick to Stahl/Avatar/someone else Sumia can also function with Vaike. And sure, you can give Lon'qu Kellam, but then you have a mediocre footie running around with 5 move, while Sumia is flying around with the same attack sporting 7 or 8 move depending on the support.

Assuming we do Paralogue 1 before Chapter 5, it isn't a huge stretch to see Sumia coming out of Chapter 4 at level 5. Let's compare her and Lon'qu.

Level 6 Sumia: 21.75 HP, 14.5 Skl, 14.5+2 Spd, 11 Lck, 6.5 Def, 9 Res

w Iron Lance: 15.25 MT
w Killer Lance: 19.25 MT

w Javelin: 11.25 MT

Level 4: Lon'qu: 20 HP, 12 Skl, 13 Spd, 7 Lck, 7 Def, 2 Res

w Iron Sword: 12 MT

w Killing Edge: 16MT

See how Lon'qu needs to use the Killer to surpass Sumia's MT with the Iron Lance by a single point? Top notch offense right there - and if Sumia uses the Killer Lance it's just plain sad to watch.

Adding in pair up bonuses now, to fix their crippling weaknesses. Frederick is assumed to have a C support with Sumia, Vaike isn't assumed the same because Lon'qu just arrived. I'll assume Vaike got strength though, but this means Lon'qu could potentially have one less MT.

Level 6 Sumia: 21.75 HP, 14.5 Skl, 15.5+2 Spd, 11 Lck, 10, 11.5 Def, 9 Res

w Iron Lance: 20.25 MT

w Killer Lance: 24.25 MT

w Javelin: 15.25 MT

Level 4 Lon'qu: 20 HP, 12 Skl, 13 Spd, 7 Lck, 9 Def, 2 Res

w Iron Sword: 17 MT

w Killing Edge: 21 MT

Note how Sumia stomps Lon'qu in durability now, +3 move and puts his offense to shame.

Wyverns in Chapter 5 have 26-27 HP, and 8-9 Def. Assuming a 27/9 generation, Sumia does 14x2 with the Killer Lance (due to WTD), resulting in a KO every time. The Wyverns are pretty threatening with 21MT, but that assumes 12 strength and proccing the Strength +2 skill. And even then, they're still missing the 2HKO on her. There's also the chance that she pulls off a crit if she initiates the attack, meaning that she doesn't end up taking a counter. These are the bulkiest enemies on the map - she ORKOes everything else on the map with Iron aside from the boss and the Myrmidons, the latter who she misses doubling by a hair. She outright OHKOes the Mage with the Killer, for god's sake.

Lon'qu then, how does he fare? His durability leaves something to be desired, being 2HKOed by any of the southern enemies on the map - if they can hit him that is. He can aleviate this problem however by standing on the forest, becoming 3HKOed at 30ish hitrates. His offense isn't bad, ORKOing most enemies with the Killing Edge (although it is the Killing Edge, and Sumia could do the same with most enemies with her Iron Lance,) only missing the Wyverns. Which Sumia can kill. With Iron, he barely misses out on ORKOing Babs with 29/3 defensive spreads (with 3 being the minimum that they can roll in defense,) but this can be alleviated with a Strength Tonic I suppose. He can ORKO the Dark Mages if they have less than 5 defense (which they normally do, but it should be considered) and the sole mage obviously.

Basically, this shows that Sumia not only had better durability than Lon'qu, but also trumps him significantly offensively upon his join. What's Lon'qu still doing above Sumia again?

[Chiki]

Lon'qu moved down.

[Da Bear]

Donnel is shit.

So is Virion, Donnel can be used to make an epic Morgan.

can see Miriel going above Vaike.

...She already ahead of him... I want it the other way around.

And Lon'qu is crap unless he uses an SS.

Agreed.

Edited May 15, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Chiki]

I meant Vaike going above Miriel, my bad. What do others think?

Donnel is just not worth recruiting, and Morgan has other potential fathers that do just fine. In fact, Morgan might not even be in play. We'll see when we're done with the adults.

[charlie_]

I can agree on Vaike>Miriel since only a handful of units even want Miriel's bonuses in the first place.

[Chiki]

Vaike moved down.

[charlie_]

You mean Miriel right?

[Da Bear]

You mean Miriel right?

lol I think so.

[Chiki]

Do you guys think the tier list is good enough for going onto children?

Complexity ratings coming tomorrow.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Olwen

[Hawk King]

There are too many variables to the children. I dont think they should be with the rest of the characters. Well, Lucina should because she is always recruited.

[Da Bear]

I would say that it just gets too long if you tier children... I'd say keep them separate.

[Anouleth]

I think it'd be better to debate and find the better Seal candidate between Lon'qu and Panne. This tier list assumes perfect play; the perfect tactician is going to give the Seal to one of them in every valid context.

Irrelevant. In a draft, you are not always going to have both Lon'qu and Panne; often you will have only drafted one or the other. This tier list considers drafts, so it is a valid context. Unless you're telling me that a "perfect tactician" would give Panne the Seal even when she isn't drafted! That would certainly be a joke.

Also, if the player is a perfect tactician, you should remove the separate listings for galeforceless, rescueless, and sealless, and male and female units. A perfect tactician would not choose to give up the strongest skill in the game.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Anouleth

[Redwall]

^In other words, you simultaneously support and decry the inclusion of varying contexts?

[General Horace]

the children really aren't as variable as people make them out to be

its pretty obvious brady is worse than cynthia and etc. Lucina is no more variable than the children themselves, since she ranges from terrible to mediocre if avatar isn't the parent.

[Chiki]

Agreed. Since most children with varying parents are similar we can put them in the same spot in the tier list. Only when they significantly help out can we give the child a spot on the tier list.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Olwen

[Anouleth]

^In other words, you simultaneously support and decry the inclusion of varying contexts?

I am not supporting or decrying the inclusion of varying contexts (although that is not really something that is happening here). However, I think Olwen should make up his mind exactly what he wants this tier list to be. He made an awfully big deal out of insisting that varying contexts should be considered, only to, less than a page later, assume that Avatar is always in play and always getting the Seal. And now saying that we should determine which is better of Panne and Lon'qu, and then assume that they're always in play and always getting the Seal, and we should never consider the context in which we're not using the other. This is in direct contradiction to his earlier example of units taking credit even when a better unit exists, because we might not be using that unit.

the children really aren't as variable as people make them out to be

its pretty obvious brady is worse than cynthia and etc. Lucina is no more variable than the children themselves, since she ranges from terrible to mediocre if avatar isn't the parent.

Gaius!Brady is competitive if Rescue is permitted. He can easily provide Rescue staff support with his excellent 7 move, although obviously his magic is a little on the low side. Laurent can do the same. Cynthia's magic seems to be a bit too low to really make good use of Rescue, but you could make it work with Ricken or Henry. Cynthia can be used to spam Rally Movement, as can Severa, but Severa has the disadvantage of having to choose between an 8 move mounted class and a 7 move flying class.

[Chiki]

What do you mean in direct contradiction? I don't think you understand the idea of varying contexts. If Cordelia in FE13 is worse than Sumia but still very similar, Cordelia gets credit for being good in a context in which Sumia isn't allowed. How is that in contradiction with anything?

[Chiki]

I'm not sure about these at all so feel free to fix them.

Prologue: 3/5

Chapter 1: 3/5

Chapter 2: 4/5

Chapter 3: 3/5

Chapter 4: 1/5

Chapter 5: 3/5

Chapter 6: 4/5

Chapter 7: 3/5

Chapter 8: 3/5

Chapter 9: 4/5

Chapter 10: 3/5

Chapter 11: 3/5

Chapter 12: 4/5

Chapter 13: 1/5

Chapter 14: 2/5

Chapter 15: 3/5

Chapter 16: 2/5

Chapter 17: 4/5

Chapter 18: 1/5

Chapter 19: 1/5

Chapter 20: 2/5

Chapter 21: 4/5

Chapter 22: 2/5

Chapter 23: 3/5

Chapter 24: 3/5

Chapter 25: 1/5

Endgame: 1/5

I haven't really done all of the Paralogues so someone else might be able to give me a good idea about those.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Olwen

[Da Bear]

Chapters 13, 14, 18, 19 and 20 (maybe a few others) are all easily enough one-turned which makes them more along the lines of 1/5 imo.

Edit: Sorry 20 can't be done in one-turn without multiple rescues or maybe one rescue and some Galeforce abuse.

Edited May 16, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Chiki]

It takes Galeforce which acquiring is in itself an issue, and drafts may not be able to use Galeforce anyway, hence why I kept those complexity ratings higher than 1. I might increase 22 to 2 because it can be a little challenging I guess.

[Da Bear]

It takes Galeforce which acquiring is in itself an issue, and drafts may not be able to use Galeforce anyway, hence why I kept those complexity ratings higher than 1. I might increase 22 to 2 because it can be a little challenging I guess.

Doesn't even require Galeforce in most of them. Just rescue staffing... 18 requires Deliverer or Galeforce and the rest are one-turnable with just rescue.

Edited May 16, 2013 by bearclaw13