Mapping Voting

[Chocolate Kitty]

So yeah, vote, Custom tileset fyi.

Anouleth, if I was supposed to use the roofed version, tell me.

Why do I always forget the ending date?!

Tomorrow (11th of March)

Edited March 11, 2011 by Hero of Time

[Anouleth]

No, that one is fine!

It's a shame this didn't see more interest, though. I can't help but feel I made a mistake with the requirements too.

[Feaw]

ANou since it's either Anou or Krad for me, and Anou's is simply better. Krad's is still okay, though, but Anou's is way more interesting.

[Radiant Dragon]

It's a shame this didn't see more interest, though.

I've wanted to participate in these, but I just haven't had the time to make any maps. Hopefully I'll have time for the next one.

[Celice]

I didn't make a map this time because the requested necessities makes the maps all feel the same, to me. Including castles, ships, rivers and shops--that makes the directive of a map feel limited, and not so fun to work with. A generalized request would be more fun to work through than a demanding, restrictive one.

[whase]

what exactly were the rules of this competition?

was it just "create a map" or was there more to it?

nvm, found the original topic~

I missed this one, I might've entered if I knew about this...

[13th]

None. They're all pretty terrible to me. No vote.

[Feaw]

I didn't make a map this time because the requested necessities makes the maps all feel the same, to me. Including castles, ships, rivers and shops--that makes the directive of a map feel limited, and not so fun to work with. A generalized request would be more fun to work through than a demanding, restrictive one.

So you're saying we should just make the rules "Use this tileset, with this size, rest is up to you", becuase otherwise all the maps are the same? I have to disagree with you. A good mapper can make at least ten completely different maps out of any rules given, however strict they may be.

Also, @shadow, care to explain why they're terrible? Not enough FE1ness?

Edited March 9, 2011 by Feaw

[13th]

Well...

Feaw's: The elevation is really funky, making me deter from thinking of playing it. Also, a little much variety in the map. Its not aesthetically pleasing, IMO.

Anou's: Hugeness is good, but there are large empty spots, which deter the aesthetic appeal.

Krad's: That ocean is really funky looking, and the ships are strange

[Feaw]

Mmkay, well, you've given your reasons (although it's mostly nitpicking), and it's not forbidden to not vote.

[Celice]

So you're saying we should just make the rules "Use this tileset, with this size, rest is up to you", becuase otherwise all the maps are the same? I have to disagree with you. A good mapper can make at least ten completely different maps out of any rules given, however strict they may be.

Also, @shadow, care to explain why they're terrible? Not enough FE1ness?

No, anyone can make at least ten completely different map out any rules given. The skill of a map-cartographer isn't representative of the amount one is able to make. Whether one's map plays well represents the ability of a level designer--of which, only Krad's here in this round looks even remotely fun to play. The first abandons all hope of flow, making movement throughout the city a random act, and the second would be alright, except it feels like it's unnecessarily large in a bunch of places--get rid of the empty space and fix the broken perspective and it wouldn't be so bad. Neither map has any flow.

The last map has a lot of cosmetic issues, but it's also the most stable of the map. The entire right-side is essentially dead space, but the left side isn't wasted to the player--and the left can be occupied by enemies arriving.

It didn't feel like a random pile of tiles put together to meet some requirements, containing some forethought by its author.

My criticisms echo that of 13thshadow.

[13th]

@Celice: Yes, Anou's has emptiness, but the perspective is actually pretty good, IMO.

[Feaw]

I kinda get what you're saying, but I still have to disagree. A map's playability is also influenced by the units on them. Enemies, as well as players and perhaps NPCs.

My map isn't just "a random pile of tiles put together to meet some requirements", I've thought about how things will go in-game.

 But I'm not trying to prove anything, if you don't like my map, sure, your opinion.

[Original Alear]

A good mapper can make at least ten completely different maps out of any rules given, however strict they may be.

The map dimensions are 1x1, you are only allowed one kind of tile.

[Anouleth]

Krad's here in this round looks even remotely fun to play.

I would say that Krad's looks the least fun to play, because it's built as a defense chapter. Basically, you're stuck in the town at the beginning and can't go anywhere. There's nothing to explore or to reach since every Village and shop is on your doorstep.

and the second would be alright, except it feels like it's unnecessarily large in a bunch of places--get rid of the empty space and fix the broken perspective and it wouldn't be so bad. Neither map has any flow.

I don't see how the perspective is broken, sorry. For all that you criticize my map for having no 'flow', I disagree. There is a clear start point and a clear end point with multiple routes to reach it, all with distinct advantages and disadvantages.

The last map has a lot of cosmetic issues, but it's also the most stable of the map. The entire right-side is essentially dead space, but the left side isn't wasted to the player--and the left can be occupied by enemies arriving.

It didn't feel like a random pile of tiles put together to meet some requirements, containing some forethought by its author.

If you're suggesting I didn't put forethought into my map, then you're incorrect. You said there was too much empty space, but empty space has to be left for enemies.

In addition, I don't quite agree with your criticism of the map requirements. Yes, I picked the requirements with a village map in mind. That's because I wanted a competition of village maps. Within the possibility of 'village maps', I would have thought there was a lot of freedom to move, although I should probably have been more lenient with the size requirements.

[Nanami Touko]

Votin' for Anou. Y'all can call it empty space all you want, unnecessarily large all you want, but I would love to play on it. Krad's makes me feel constricted to the space on the left, and Feaw's, even though I can follow the height differences, is still pretty mind boggling XD

[Chocolate Kitty]

Hey, take your arguments elsewhere, like a PM or something, and even though I disagree completely with Celice and Shadow, I'm not getting involved in any of this.

And if you don't feel like voting, just don't. And like Feaw said, your reasons are, tbh, shitty. So unless you feel and show you can do better (and I've seen your maps Shadow, so this isn't really at Celice), enter the contest and blow us away.

[Celice]

Why are units not clearly added to the maps? Starting points, NPCs, enemies, reinforcement spawns all have an incredible importance in whether a map is fun to play or not, in addition to the standard layout of a map. The only real reason I can think of is people find it tedious to add in. But how a map is engaged is dependent on the items within--and here, all we're given to vote on is the empty blank map.

My map isn't just "a random pile of tiles put together to meet some requirements", I've thought about how things will go in-game.

Such as this. One can't foresee what you expected of your map unless it's pretty clear. Krad's map in no way has to be a defense chapter. Any of the three maps could be interpreted as being strictly a defense chapter--how fun the map would be to play depends on this context.

There's nothing to explore or to reach since every Village and shop is on your doorstep.

All flow on this map is restricted to that left-center area, which really kills the map. It's an incredibly stationary map which does not encourage outward exploration. For the first map, it can be felt to be equally discordant--its labyrinth-like chambers don't feel the role of a city, or to have any role at all, other than to obstruct players. This awkwardness makes the map feel droll. It's reminiscent of the awkward level design of the first and third Fire Emblems, where map design wasn't so much to conduce exploration and achievement, but to force restriction and hinder the player. There is not much "why" but much "what" in the substance.

The middle map, I would personally narrow some streets, or else break their emptiness by actually showing what units would be where. For perspective, the entire roofed section is a tile too low--the height of a large building/warehouse/whatever is planned is probably not going to be a single wall-length tall, the height of that barrel. The ceiling is going to be taller most likely, than the height of a doorway. Aside from narrowing, the right-side areas feel as if they just appeared there. The movement from city to outside is jarring.

If an author has intent in their map, it's up to them to make sure it's pronounced. Not everyone can envision the same setup you do unless you show your setup. The middle map has the best flow, because it's pretty obvious what's the intent of the map--get to the throne while heading through the city. It can be a defense chapter as well, or an escape, however. Show the intention! It's more fun to the viewer to see what you meant to achieve. At the moment all we're given is empty sheets of tiles mean to appear aesthetically pleasing.

("one does not have to take advice; but one encourages it to be shared")

Edited March 9, 2011 by Celice

[Chocolate Kitty]

Why are units not clearly added to the maps? Starting points, NPCs, enemies, reinforcement spawns all have an incredible importance in whether a map is fun to play or not, in addition to the standard layout of a map. The only real reason I can think of is people find it tedious to add in. But how a map is engaged is dependent on the items within--and here, all we're given to vote on is the empty blank map.

Such as this. One can't foresee what you expected of your map unless it's pretty clear. Krad's map in no way has to be a defense chapter. Any of the three maps could be interpreted as being strictly a defense chapter--how fun the map would be to play depends on this context.

I'm completely confused what you mean here, starting points and enemy location can't be made from just a blank map. Any map could go in around 3 different ways, as a defend map, as a seize map, or as a route map, things like what you are asking can't be determined from just the map. Unless this is just a matter of opinion, Krad's map could easily be a defend chapter, enemies come from the north, south, and west portion of the map, you start in the middle. The context you are speaking of, IMO, doesn't really exist, since any map could be interpreted in any format.

[Celice]

Which is what the importance of unit placement, or at least an author's description of such, derives from (which you did not quote--I echoed your sentiments on the ambiguity there).

Hey, take your arguments elsewhere, like a PM or something, and even though I disagree completely with Celice and Shadow, I'm not getting involved in any of this.

Though I didn't see this bit, so I'm done.

[Anouleth]

Why are units not clearly added to the maps? Starting points, NPCs, enemies, reinforcement spawns all have an incredible importance in whether a map is fun to play or not, in addition to the standard layout of a map. The only real reason I can think of is people find it tedious to add in. But how a map is engaged is dependent on the items within--and here, all we're given to vote on is the empty blank map.

Well, I don't know how to do that. I suppose it's left up to the imagination of the person looking at it.

In addition, I could say anything about the enemies or NPCs or whatever. But it would be meaningless without the context given by the units you get to play with or the other maps in the story. This seems like a bit too much to ask for. In a good map, it should be fairly obvious anyway roughly where the starting location is (or it could be one of several locations).

Such as this. One can't foresee what you expected of your map unless it's pretty clear. Krad's map in no way has to be a defense chapter. Any of the three maps could be interpreted as being strictly a defense chapter--how fun the map would be to play depends on this context.

I find it hard to imagine how it would not be a defense chapter, and he did specifically state that he intended it as an defense chapter. If someone interprets my map or Feaw's map as only a defense map and nothing else, they're wrong.

The middle map, I would personally narrow some streets, or else break their emptiness by actually showing what units would be where.

I don't have any elegant way to do that. I assume that the observer will assume that appropiate enemies will actually exist, just as they would assume appropriate enemies would exist in the other maps (like Pirates and fliers in Krad's map). I wasn't aware that in order to have a 'good map' I needed to specify where every enemy is, since that hasn't been done in any maps since this competition began.

For perspective, the entire roofed section is a tile too low--the height of a large building/warehouse/whatever is planned is probably not going to be a single wall-length tall, the height of that barrel.

It's also quite typical to use walls of that height:

http://serenesforest.net/fe7/map/6.PNG

http://serenesforest.net/fe7/map/16x.PNG

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe8/guiafe8/capituloeirik9fe8.htm

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe8/guiafe8/capitulo3fe8.htm

Since about 100% of IS maps that actually use similar tilesets to what I was using do this, I don't think it's an issue.

The ceiling is going to be taller most likely, than the height of a doorway. Aside from narrowing, the right-side areas feel as if they just appeared there. The movement from city to outside is jarring.

I tried to make it as non-jarring as possible. The idea is that on the right, you have a little walled courtyard. I guess it might have worked better as another room, though, but I thought I had enough of those.

Hey, take your arguments elsewhere, like a PM or something, and even though I disagree completely with Celice and Shadow, I'm not getting involved in any of this.

I'm not sure how discussing the maps in a map voting topic isn't 100% relevant.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Anouleth

[Feaw]

@Celice: As much as I disagree with you, I'm actually liking your suggestion of putting units on the map. I've done that for a while now, and yeah. Back at FEP when I hosted a comp., we said like put X amount of units of this class, X of this, etc. Of course this could better be place from X to X amount of units, or it has to use this class but not this class, yanno, more liberties. But honestly, I still don't think that's gonna work out too well since people, as you said, find it tedious, so less people will participate.

Anyway, unless you have something important to say, let's all just wait for teh votes so we can see who wins~

Edited March 9, 2011 by Feaw

[13th]

Because I don't like any, I wish to show you what I would do for this competition.

The goal is to rout. The bosses (A support each other, one warrior, one berserker) are on the grates on the top of the ship. After 7 turns, 2 mercenaries, 2 fighters, and 2 pirates will emerge from the ship via the stairs. It will happen again on turns 9 and 11. On turn 13, 2 Heroes will replace the Mercs, and a Berserker will replace a pirate. Turns 5, 6, 7, and 8, 3 cavaliers will arrive from the stairs at the top of the dock. on turn 9, 1 paladin (also named) and 2 nomads will arrive from the same stairs. The only enemies here at the start are a handful of pirates and cavaliers on the dock, and some brigands coming up the road toward the village. The Village on the left gives you a spear, while the right village gives you a tomahawk. Your units start by the inn. You get a Wyvern Rider and a Paladin in this chapter. The Wyvern Rider comes from the east, north of the ship, and must be talked to by the Lord. The Paladin is yours from the beginning.

[Jaybee]

You say Anouleth's map has too much empty space, and you go and make a farcical map in return.

Bravo.

[Anouleth]

You say Anouleth's map has too much empty space, and you go and make a farcical map in return.

Bravo.

He also criticised Krad's map for having a 'funky-looking ocean', when he's just used a single tile for the entire sea on his map.