Male and Female Avatar and Morgan: Which gender is stronger?

[Noah25648]

I guess the most people would say that Female Avatar and Male Morgan are the stronger combination. Reason being the 3rd generation Male Morgan who have +11 Strength/+10 Magic. What about the Male Avatar and Female Morgan? I guess the niche of Male Avatar is more choices for two kids to pass down his skills and stats to. Topic of Male vs Female Avatar will likely involve 2nd gen vs 3rd gen Morgans.

Here are the short comparison to start things off:

Female Avatar has Galeforce and Male Morgan, who inherite Galeforce and can learn Aggressor, and may have exclusive skill such as Rightful King or Conquerer. Female Avatar has limited option for two kids, the only choice is marrying Chrom.

Male Avatar has Aggressor and Female Morgan, who can learn Galeforce and Male exclusive skill, but may inherite unique skills like Aether or Shadowgift. Male Avatar has many many female suitors for two kids.

Which gender of the Avatar and Morgan do you think is stronger?

Edited December 1, 2014 by YTakumiY

[Klokinator]

Male Morgan, who inherit Galeforce and can learn Aggressor, and may have exclusive skill such as Rightful King or Conquerer.

Female Morgan, who can learn Galeforce and Male exclusive skill, but may inherite unique skills like Aether or Shadowgift.

One of these things is better than the other. Which one is it, do you know?

[Rxmonste]

Ah, that's where the argument kicks in. I personally like having two kids than one really overpowered kid. But if you really are that interested then consider that Male Morgan can inherit Galeforce and learn Aggressor making him basically wreak havoc across Apotheosis. Female Morgan can be a Manakete but Manaketes and Taguels are not Ideal for Apotheosis for their lack of Brave Weapons/Celica's Gale or Waste. So I suppose.....Male Morgan is better? Just make him a Dread Fighter or Sorcerer. Give him these skills:

• Armsthrift (If you're not afraid to expend the durability of your Regalias/Forged weapons then replace this with, say....maybe Pavise for defensive purposes? Dread Fighters and Sorcerers tend to have low defense. Or at least, lower than usual.)
• Luna
• Galeforce
• Aggressor
• Limit Breaker

That's gonna make him do nothing but all around good and fun little destruction in Apotheosis or any of the endgame stuff if you give him forged weapons/regalias. Have his father be either Vaike's Gerome for the highest strength or Ricken's Laurent for the highest magic. Honestly, many arguments can be made. Anyone could say Female Morgan is better for some reason or another but that's just my suggestion. Do whatever pleases you

[Rxmonste]

One of these things is better than the other. Which one is it, do you know?

The former. Morgan can learn any male exclusive skill on his own and learn Aggressor while inheriting Galeforce from your female avatar. In the end, Aggressor and Galeforce are two skills that compliment each other almost too well. Even if it is only for a hit and run tactic. It still works marvelously.

[Klokinator]

Yup. Exactly my point.

[Rxmonste]

So I think you got your answer, YTakumiY. Male Morgan it is.

[Ownagepuffs]

Aether!Morgan > Male Morgan > Female Morgan

[Alastor15243]

Aether!Morgan > Male Morgan > Female Morgan

Pretty much. Male Morgan's great, just don't make the mistake of putting him with somebody who can't dish out high damage without procs. Nah's always a great option, and they have really cute supports to boot.

[shadowofchaos]

So I think you got your answer, YTakumiY. Male Morgan it is.

Nope.

Aether!Morgan > Male Morgan > Female Morgan

We've seen theorycrafting on this already... even if it's from one of the most pairing-toxic members on the forum.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47410

[Czar_Yoshi]

I'm also going to go with Morgan-F. I made a long post a while back about how Avatar-M and Morgan-M have roughly equal potential as supports, but Morgan-F is way out of Avatar-F's league as a lead due to Aether and 5 more Spd (as Sumia!Lucina!Morgan).

[Sentacotus]

I had a Morgan-F with MU/Lucina. At first I had Chrom and Sumia which gave Lucina Aether and Galeforce and a good speed boost. Then I had MU (+Strength/-Luck) pass on Limit Breaker. So when it was all said and done I had a Morgan with Ignis, Aether, Limit Breaker, Rally Spectrum, and Galeforce classed as a grandmaster. That seemed to work pretty damn well for me but either way I think Morgan will be a pretty beast unit.

Edit: Derp move got caught up listing out skills. I actually had MU pass on Rally Spectrum for some reason eww.

Edited December 2, 2014 by TacoMan42

[shadowofchaos]

pass on Limit Breaker

That can't happen, bruh.

[Rxmonste]

Then I had MU (+Strength/-Luck) pass on Limit Breaker.

Limit Breaker is a DLC skill. It's not possible to pass it on.

Aether!Morgan > Male Morgan > Female Morgan

How good do you think Aether is, really? I think it's pretty awesome don't get me wrong. but do you think it's better than Luna? I'm not trying to start an argument but I think I rather like Luna better. Personal preference. I like that it has double the activation rate of Aether. Otherwise if they both had the same activation rate then Aether is undoubtedly better in my mind.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Rxmonste

[Alastor15243]

How good do you think Aether is, really? I think it's pretty awesome don't get me wrong. but do you think it's better than Luna? I'm not trying to start an argument but I think I rather like Luna better. Personal preference. I like that it has double the activation rate of Aether. Otherwise if they both had the same activation rate then Aether is undoubtedly better in my mind.

The trick is to use Luna and Aether at once, and it's the single deadliest procstack combination imaginable (except, on some builds, Ignis+Aether, and that still involves Aether).

[Rxmonste]

The trick is to use Luna and Aether at once, and it's the single deadliest procstack combination imaginable (except, on some builds, Ignis+Aether, and that still involves Aether).

Aether + Luna is a combo I know of and use quite a bit. But the thing is if I make a build where I'm torn between Luna and Aether then I will use Luna. Because certain other skills are an absolute MUST in a certain build. If I can include them both then I will.

Edit: No, I actually only used Aether + Luna on Chrom, actually. I never tried it on anyone else.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Rxmonste

[shadowofchaos]

Aether + Luna is a combo I know of and use quite a bit. But the thing is if I make a build where I'm torn between Luna and Aether then I will use Luna. Because certain other skills are an absolute MUST in a certain build. If I can include them both then I will.

Edit: No, I actually only used Aether + Luna on Chrom, actually. I never tried it on anyone else.

Even with a lower activation rate, Aether is the better skill.

You should probably elaborate on your setups, because you're being absolutely vague about your knowledge of the game in order to properly justify your reasoning.

Edited December 1, 2014 by shadowofchaos

[Ownagepuffs]

Rey made me think. If MaMU x FeMU was a thing I wonder which one would be better. I'm guessing male because Aggressor.

In a battle of wits I bet Male would come out on top since he is shown to be calmer than female.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Aether + Luna is a combo I know of and use quite a bit. But the thing is if I make a build where I'm torn between Luna and Aether then I will use Luna. Because certain other skills are an absolute MUST in a certain build. If I can include them both then I will.

Edit: No, I actually only used Aether + Luna on Chrom, actually. I never tried it on anyone else.

Under what circumstances would a unit with Aether access only have room for one proc?

The trick is to use Luna and Aether at once, and it's the single deadliest procstack combination imaginable (except, on some builds, Ignis+Aether, and that still involves Aether).

Aether's damage: (Atk - Def) * 2 + (Def / 2).

Astra's damage: (Atk - Def) * 2.5.

So, the two will be equal when (Atk - Def) * 2 + (Def / 2) = (Atk - Def) * 2 + (Atk - Def) / 2. Simplified, when your Atk is twice the foe's Def. When it's lower? Aether wins. When it's higher? Astra wins. So Astra may actually be the better proc in some cases.

This isn't counting, of course, Aether's healing factor, increased KOing power through Counter, or the fact that high-profile targets tend to be high profile because of their high Def (or that if you're doing that much damage to an enemy, they're likely dead without procs from just your four attacks).

Rey made me think. If MaMU x FeMU was a thing I wonder which one would be better. I'm guessing male because Aggressor.

In a battle of wits I bet Male would come out on top since he is shown to be calmer than female.

Male can S with Lucina, so would definitely be better.

[Rxmonste]

Even with a lower activation rate, Aether is the better skill.

You should probably elaborate on your setups, because you're being absolutely vague about your knowledge of the game in order to properly justify your reasoning.

*Sigh* You're right. I should elaborate more on my setups. I'm sorry. I've been under a lot of stress lately so I haven't put a lot of thought into my posts. So how about this. I did a setup and tested out Chrom as a Sniper against an Apotheosis General. They have very high defense. Snipers have very high skill and bows are not affected by Pavise. Chrom maxed out with Limit Breaker, Rightful king and Aether. I ordered him to attack the Apotheosis General with a fully forged brave bow. He hit the general four times. And he did an Aether ONCE out of the four and failed to kill the general. Then I replaced Aether with Luna and took out Rightful King to make it more fair. He activated Luna in all of the four hits and killed the general. Feel free to tell me if my setup is flawed. And that's why I favor Luna. Sorry I was being vague earlier. In the end. It's all personal preference. Aether is better WHEN it activates.

Edit: He was not paired up but I gave him Tiki's Tear. He had a 100% chance to hit even without a pair up partner anyway.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Rxmonste

[lazydoggamer]

*Sigh* You're right. I should elaborate more on my setups. I'm sorry. I've been under a lot of stress lately so I haven't put a lot of thought into my posts. So how about this. I did a setup and tested out Chrom as a Sniper against an Apotheosis General. They have very high defense. Snipers have very high skill and bows are not affected by Pavise. Chrom maxed out with Limit Breaker, Rightful king and Aether. I ordered him to attack the Apotheosis General with a fully forged brave bow. He hit the general four times. And he did an Aether ONCE out of the four and failed to kill the general. Then I replaced Aether with Luna and took out Rightful King to make it more fair. He activated Luna in all of the four hits and killed the general. Feel free to tell me if my setup is flawed. And that's why I favor Luna. Sorry I was being vague earlier. In the end. It's all personal preference. Aether is better WHEN it activates.

Edit: He was not paired up but I gave him Tiki's Tear. He had a 100% chance to hit even without a pair up partner anyway.

You're missing the point. A unit who has access to both aether and luna equips both of them for max reliability.

Edited December 1, 2014 by lazydoggamer

[Rxmonste]

You're missing the point. A unit who has access to both aether and luna equips both of them for max reliability.

I know. I usually do it with Chrom wanted to see which one of the two was better in case I was for some reason forced to use one of them. I did the setup I mentioned earlier for comparison. Just in case if someone for example challenged me to use only one for Apo.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Rxmonste

[Czar_Yoshi]

*Sigh* You're right. I should elaborate more on my setups. I'm sorry. I've been under a lot of stress lately so I haven't put a lot of thought into my posts. So how about this. I did a setup and tested out Chrom as a Sniper against an Apotheosis General. They have very high defense. Snipers have very high skill and bows are not affected by Pavise. Chrom maxed out with Limit Breaker, Rightful king and Aether. I ordered him to attack the Apotheosis General with a fully forged brave bow. He hit the general four times. And he did an Aether ONCE out of the four and failed to kill the general. Then I replaced Aether with Luna and took out Rightful King to make it more fair. He activated Luna in all of the four hits and killed the general. Feel free to tell me if my setup is flawed. And that's why I favor Luna. Sorry I was being vague earlier. In the end. It's all personal preference. Aether is better WHEN it activates.

Edit: He was not paired up but I gave him Tiki's Tear. He had a 100% chance to hit even without a pair up partner anyway.

Woah there. Anecdotal evidence overload. You do not run one test once and use it as a basis for what's "good", you do math.

So here's what your Chrom probably looked like fighting that General (skillset of LB/Agg/BF/proc/proc):

Atk: 41(base) +1(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +10(Agg) +2(tonic) +17(B.Bow) =91

Skl: 48(base) +1(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +2(tonic) =71

Normal damage: 91 -65 /2 =13, Luna damage; 91 -32 /2 =29 (+16). The target has 80 HP, 4 normal attacks will do 13 *4 =52, 28 extra damage from procs is needed. One Aether or two Lunas will do the trick.

Aether + RK: proc rate is 45%, success rate is 90.85% (not zero Aethers).

Luna + RK: proc rate is 81%, success rate is 97.65% (neither zero nor one Lunas).

Just Luna: proc rate is 71%, success rate is 97.56% (neither zero nor one Lunas).

Aether and Luna: Aether's proc rate is 35%, Luna's proc rate is 46.15%, whiff rate is 18.85%, success rate is 98.64% (neither four whiffs nor one Luna).

So what can we glean from this? Aether isn't a superb killing move on its own in terms of accuracy, while Luna is pretty good. However, adding RK to Luna reduced the odds of failure by 3.69%, while adding Aether to Luna reduced the odds of failure by 44.15%- a nearly 12x increase in performance gain.

So, how does this compare to your results? You ran Aether + RK once and got one out of four Aethers (29.95%), and ran Luna alone once and got four out of four Lunas (25.41%). The odds of someone replicating your test and getting the same results as you are only 7.61%, and that's not reliable at all.

But this test is only focused on KOing power against a specific enemy. A much fairer comparison would be average damage, so let's try that now. We'll assume the enemy has 55 Def, which is a reasonable amount for S.Apo. Chrom gets the same set, but I won't bother testing RK (just Aether, Luna and Aether + Luna).

Normal damage: 91 -55 /2 =18. Luna damage = 91 -27 /2 =32 (50). Proc rates are still the same.

Just Luna: average is .71 * 32 + .29 * 18 =27.94 damage.

Just Aether: average is .35 * 50 + .65 * 18 =29.20 damage.

Luna + Aether: average is .35 * 50 + .4615 * 32 + .1885 * 18 =35.66 damage.

So really, even with the lower proc rate, Aether beats Luna in terms of average damage alone without RK's help (with it on both Aether and Luna, the numbers will be skewed even more in Aether's favor- Aether also gains more points from having a support unit than Luna does, to the point where Aether+Luna beats out Agg+Luna in terms of average damage output), but when stacked the increase is extremely significant. In fact, the difference in average damage between Aether+Luna and just Luna is almost as big as the difference between just Luna and no proc.

tl;dr Aether is really good.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Rxmonste]

Woah there. Anecdotal evidence overload. You do not run one test once and use it as a basis for what's "good", you do math.

So here's what your Chrom probably looked like fighting that General (skillset of LB/Agg/BF/proc/proc):

Atk: 41(base) +1(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +10(Agg) +2(tonic) +17(B.Bow) =91

Skl: 48(base) +1(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +2(tonic) =71

Normal damage: 91 -65 /2 =13, Luna damage; 91 -32 /2 =29 (+16). The target has 80 HP, 4 normal attacks will do 13 *4 =52, 28 extra damage from procs is needed. One Aether or two Lunas will do the trick.

Aether + RK: proc rate is 45%, success rate is 90.85% (not zero Aethers).

Luna + RK: proc rate is 81%, success rate is 97.65% (neither zero nor one Lunas).

Just Luna: proc rate is 71%, success rate is 97.56% (neither zero nor one Lunas).

Aether and Luna: Aether's proc rate is 35%, Luna's proc rate is 46.15%, whiff rate is 18.85%, success rate is 98.64% (neither four whiffs nor one Luna).

So what can we glean from this? Aether isn't a superb killing move on its own in terms of accuracy, while Luna is pretty good. However, adding RK to Luna reduced the odds of failure by 3.69%, while adding Aether to Luna reduced the odds of failure by 44.15%- a nearly 12x increase in performance gain.

So, how does this compare to your results? You ran Aether + RK once and got one out of four Aethers (29.95%), and ran Luna alone once and got four out of four Lunas (25.41%). The odds of someone replicating your test and getting the same results as you are only 7.61%, and that's not reliable at all.

But this test is only focused on KOing power against a specific enemy. A much fairer comparison would be average damage, so let's try that now. We'll assume the enemy has 55 Def, which is a reasonable amount for S.Apo. Chrom gets the same set, but I won't bother testing RK (just Aether, Luna and Aether + Luna).

Normal damage: 91 -55 /2 =18. Luna damage = 91 -27 /2 =32 (50). Proc rates are still the same.

Just Luna: average is .71 * 32 + .29 * 18 =27.94 damage.

Just Aether: average is .35 * 50 + .65 * 18 =29.20 damage.

Luna + Aether: average is .35 * 50 + .4615 * 32 + .1885 * 18 =35.66 damage.

So really, even with the lower proc rate, Aether beats Luna in terms of average damage alone without RK's help (with it on both Aether and Luna, the numbers will be skewed even more in Aether's favor- Aether also gains more points from having a support unit than Luna does, to the point where Aether+Luna beats out Agg+Luna in terms of average damage output), but when stacked the increase is extremely significant. In fact, the difference in average damage between Aether+Luna and just Luna is almost as big as the difference between just Luna and no proc.

tl;dr Aether is really good.

You raise a lot of points. I surrender to you, milord. Aether is the superior skill. Flawless victory. I still like having them both on. Luna is the backup plan.

But I don't need math to know Aether deals more damage. I mean it's two hits. One of them heals you and the other busts through half of the enemy's defense and resistance. Rather than a skill that does only the latter.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Rxmonste

[Czar_Yoshi]

Yeah, one thing I didn't mention that is worth taking into account is that just Luna has a lower chance of getting the worst-case scenario (a whiff) than just Aether- while just Aether's average is higher and its maximum is a lot higher, its distribution is quite a bit wider too, so in a sense it's more random. Unless you'll be deliberately doing RNG manipulation, Luna by itself probably is safer than Aether by itself (I hesitate to say more useful because Aether's HP recovery hasn't come up yet).

They're really meant to go together, though.