Mitsuki
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Posts posted by Mitsuki
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@Kirsche:
The post where you say Blitz is bad is post #161, back in D1, and you're commenting on post #120 by Blitz there. Next post by Blitz is his role assignment, which logically comes after your own. You're saying that you gave Blitz tracker because you were the most confident in him being town, even if you were not sure. You didn't include Blitz in your lynch priority, sure, but what made you suddenly decide Blitz was townie and think he would use tracker well when nothing had changed?
@SB: You said that you thought there was scum between Cam, Kirsche and me. Do you have any conclusions on that? If you decided that wasn't relevant anymore, why?
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Mitsuki can you quote a game recently where my attitude has been any different.
I can't, my argument is not based on meta. I just know that not being very nice is null for you, but the way you were not being very nice feels too forced, which is the scummy part.
What was the town-intent behind it?
Did you get to the part where I said I was townreading 9 people and Clarinets was my only actual nullread? Not that much has changed since then. And to the part where I explained why SB/Michelaar/you were the only viable targets for my role, and how it works?
Yeah, you should definitely read that first.
I guess the way you're reading isn't scummy by itself after you explained it but it still looks like a lot of wasted time to me.
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@Cam: Definitely not, but not because of interactions.
Mitsuki, I can't really remember any games where Elie has been particularly mad as scum before (uh, if you could point me to one or just mention it that would be aces).
Quickhammer mafia but mostly Doomsday clock from what I recall. His walls and walls looked like bias to me there because of how he was mad, but it's just very similar to how he's mad here.Not sure but I also believe he's more prone to do extremely bad stuff as scum than as town. In Quickhammer Mafia he hammered early and now he's reading the thread without actually taking into account who's dead and who's alive. It's not the same but it's the same kind of bad in my opinion. I don't have enough time left to come up with the proper words to explain it but yeah.
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What about the "view autosaved content" option?
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I get a terrible feeling from this post by Kirsche. Tone just doesn't look natural, at all. I know Kirsche is usually not very nice on purpose and that is a part of his play but that attitude seems forced to me. I'm not sure if I'm just biased because I am scumreading him. I don't think so because a lot of time has passed and I was honestly looking for a new post to reconsider my read on him, because I know I didn't have nearly enough info to be 100% sure of my scumread in him.
I'll reconsider and an in-depth analysis if I see it fit, not sure because I'm ok with his newer post. It looks more genuine but I'm less sure about this. ???
@Elieson: Why didn't you take into account who's alive and who's dead before making that post? A lot of useless content there. Either way if you're really this busy you should ask for a replacement.
For the record, I only recall Elieson being this type of mad as scum, as town when he gets mad it's more like he feels that he's right and he's mad at his scumreads for being scummy and nobody noticing. This is probably going to sound stupid but Elieson mad as town looks like he's holding a flag at the top of a cliff while shouting "JUSTICE" to the sky before a specially epic battle and Elieson mad as scum looks like he's surrounded by flames and burning with rage while screaming to everyone he can scream to.
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Actually I don't think Elieson has not fucked up the restriction even once.
Meanwhile, SB is writing desu more than he actually needs to! Good job man, keep it up!
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Yeah, Elieson absolutely fucked up the post restriction. More than once, too. Good job.
I'll contact Prims to ask him if the wording of the restriction was ambiguous or whatever.
Clarinet's claim is weird but I don't find him scummy. I think that if he was scum I'd have found something SUSPICIOUS about him already, even if it was some dumb read.
I still haven't read most of the posts, new post coming soon maybe.
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I think I made SB snap.
I haven't read the thread much (other than SB's posts) because I'm at Tech's house, which is definitely better than the con.
As you all have guessed already, I'm the post restrictor. I have 5 shots and once per game I can restrict two people at the same time, like I did this phase, at the expense of 3 shots. I come up with the restrictions, but Prims must approve them.
I gave the best restriction I came up with to SB because I love him and the first thing that came to my mind when I thought about using my role was restricting him. Also because only viable targets were SB, Elieson and Michelaar, since if people don't follow their restrictions they get both voted and roleblocked. Not like it matters much anyways since I'm making these post restrictions so that they're easy enough to follow. Also there's something else but I'm only going to claim it if it ever becomes relevant, which I don't think it will.
I also restricted Elieson because I'm kind of scumreading him and it also looked like fun.
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Clarinets you should claim your role
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Seeing those kills I guess this is 11/2/2 after all, and that I was wrong. I think a potential SK would have tried to kill more scummy people, unless the SK is Boron for some reason but I guess that's paranoia.
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We should really not hammer early, because SB and Elieson have some INTERESTING POSTS to make. Also cutting potential discussion like that would be dumb. I want to believe that's what people would do by default, but then I remember about Quickhammer Mafia.
##Vote: Michelaar
Losing two of our PRs like that sucks but at least we have this. I don't really have anything else to say, I found Michelaar slightly scummy before and SB townie, so yay.
I'll be away most of today because I'm attending a con. I don't feel like going but I promised I'd be there to a friend. SUCKS
@Refa: My actions were successful, my role is going to become evident soon enough.
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Actually, thinking about it, I should really claim my role. But I don't want to spoil it so I'll just write a warning here: Make sure to read your PMs when the phase starts.
This is probably making my role pretty obvious already but if you guessed what it is please keep it secret for me. I'll specify tomorrow, because there are a couple of details worth mentioning.
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Elieson you should really get here, I'm not buying that you're just inactive because of whatever because you always have time to talk to people and even join EM games in your job, and because of what I already pointed out here, which I didn't happen to forget. Much to the contrary, the time that has happened only makes it worse.
Regardless of that, you had to make a decision when assigning roles, and I'm sure nobody would assign those at random. Some reading needed to be done. So which are your conclusions?
And where's the recap you promised? Don't tell me you didn't have time to finish reading the thread because other times you haven't had a problem dividing your recaps into several parts. Why didn't you at least post a part yesterday?
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So I've ISO'd Randa because he was my weakest townread and everyone was talking about him, which made me paranoid. There's also the fact that I had skipped most of his posts because I don't like his posting style... and the fact that I had dismissed him as town just not to read them. Yeah, amazing mafia player here.
It was a waste of time, I still find him townie. And sadly, because writing is a pain, now it's time to explain:
The Reasons Why Randa is Town
His content doesn't seem bad to me, it's just very, very poorly written. You need to be paying very close attention to what Randa is saying and has said to connect all the dots in his reasoning. Doing this, I've found no problem with his content.
When Randa pointed out Freyjadour's "scumslip", he added this:I don't know if it's misspeaking or a legit some scum slip, I'm inclined to believe it's the latter rather than the former.
Ok, so if I were scum in Randa's position I wouldn't have added that in my FIRST post about it, because I'd be trying to paint that person as scummy. But that's not all:I'm really conflicted on whether it's inherently scummy or just bad tbh.
After only one post by Freyjadour, where he replies basically nothing, he adds this (I'm guessing this was written before Freyjadour's reply, but who cares). This would be ridiculous play as scum, invalidating your own case like that. And in his next post, an actual reply to Freyjadour, he further pushes the read. This would be EVEN WORSE play as scum, you don't go "hey my read may be bad" "I'm conflicted with my read" and then you further pursue it, because it would look like an awful way of contradicting yourself.
How does Randa explain this later, when asked about it? He wasn't sure of his read, so he wanted to use it as a means to get a better read on Freyjadour. Which makes perfect sense to me given what I pointed out, if you disagree I invite you to fight me.
And then there's the last paragraph in this post:You have plenty of material to make a real case, you have to people to agree with on the case, you don't even have to actually think you can sheep, but at the very least stop acting like im twisting your words. You can disagree with the read I got from it sure. There's no problem with that. You're not even doing that your trying to discredit my case without using actual facts or reasons.
Scum inviting someone to case them on actual facts, instead of taking advantage of the weakness of their scumread to help them push them and discredit their vote? Don't make me laugh. This doesn't make sense as scum no matter how hard you try to look at it. It's just something that people don't usually say, which makes it look weird. But it's actually really townie.Randa's way of explaining everything when asked about it looks townie to me because I empathize with it in a way, not sure why.
I think people just don't like his posting style and have a hard time understanding his logic, which will look worse by default just because he's not very good at explaining stuff.
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Yeah, I was going from SB's post here (Izhuark don't forget about that!).
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Oh.
Then Izhuark should also WIFOM who to protect taking Shin into account. I think this is more important than protecting tracker but SB didn't so???
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Shin, you should probably vig tonight, so that scum don't kill you and we waste a vig shot. I'm assuming you'd still be able to perform the kill even if you were shot. Cam can watch Shin to make sure that if something interferes with his action we know who it was, even if that's unlikely (although I'd pretty much assume it was Clarinets).
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Trying to reread a bit but I find most stuff irrelevant.
I think Kirsche's role assignment is scummy, since giving a good role to a good player is basically giving all the reasons for scum to shoot them. I don't agree with Refa when he says that Kirsche wouldn't have given him a tracker as scum, because if Kirsche is scum, he has no reason to worry about giving Blitz the tracker. He's ascetic and he can't be tracked.
Sure, that also means Kirsche didn't give Blitz the role to kill him but my point is that I don't see town giving the good players the good roles. A lot of people talked about why that would be a bad decision so I'm sure he didn't miss it. And it's just logical either way.
It's worth mentioning that Cam wasn't such a strong townread of mine until deadline. My read on him is all gut but going from what I know he'd be playing really differently as scum, so I'm quite certain about it.
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"So, why aren't there two scumteams?"
Look at this post by Prims, where he specifies how two mafia factions would flip as. There's a clear flaw in those, as the information that you would gain from seeing one flip is different than the information you would gain from seeing the other. If you see someone flip as mafia you still don't know there are two scumteams, but if you see someone flip as scum you do.
Sure, we don't know if there is just one mafia faction which is actually called "scum" and which flips in yellow, but Prims always calls mafia mafia so yeah. And I don't see Prims doing that stuff just to confuse players, he's not that kind of mod. I think he always tries hard so that the elements in his games can't be exploited. Getting unsymmetrical information from two factions that should mirror each other just doesn't look like something he'd do.
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Mitsuki- Initially scumreads Freyjadour before townreading him (...okay) before hard scumreading him again right before phase end. Waffling isn't scummy, but it felt like she was literally switching gears on him all phase as opposed to a logical progression on her read.
At the time I made my Freyjadour vote, I had three options:
1. Leave my vote on Kirsche. This was what I would have wanted to do, but we wouldn't have gotten a lynch that way because only votes on him were Izhuark and me. I wasn't absolutely sure about that at the time, of course, but nobody was showing up so I decided not to risk it. It definitely was the right choice seeing how things went.
2. Vote Izhuark. But Izhuark is a very strong townread of mine (you'll argue that we are scumbuddies or whatever, but I'm town, so).
3. Vote Freyjadour. He was the only other viable wagon. Just for that I would have ended up voting him, although I scumread him in the end.
Voting Clarinets wasn't an option seeing as he had only 2 votes on him. It was barely any different from voting Kirsche, who was and is my strongest scumread.
Allow me to explain my change of read on Freyjadour. I was stressed. Nobody was showing up, and the few people who were were doing mostly nothing to consolidate and discuss. My SF access was going to cut off soon. No vote seemed good. Then Freyjadour appeared, and made a terrible post. I found this scummy, but it was only because I was under pressure, and I don't think as well under pressure. One of my final thoughts before falling asleep that day was that my read was probably wrong, not because of my logic, but precisely because I had come up with it in those circumstances.
I'm not sure what to tell you about the "logical progression" of my reads, you're not the first person who points that out so ???. You should probably consider that I don't just come to the thread and post whatever comes up to my mind, specially because most of the time I can't access SF but also because that's what I always do. I think a lot through the day and I write a lot in my thoughts QT; mostly only my final thoughts are in the thread.
Either way; what would I have gained of casing Freyjadour, when I could have voted for Freyjadour without casing him?
Your point on Kirsche is very good, I'm all up for lynching him but you probably already know that.
I'm pretty sure that there aren't two scumteams but I'll post about that later.
Mitsuki- Scum pick, why would you give Cam a useless role? The most egregious one IMO.
I've already answered this but, questions like this are why I said that we should talk about role assignments when we could.
That and her insistence to talk about the role assignment (and that it was not inhibiting discussion time) makes me feel like she is mainly only interested in being assigned a good role to be used or something? I perceive scum intent behind that because I don't really feel that she really wants to scum hunt at all.
Are you kidding? Scumhunting is all I am in this game for. I have a hard time finding the motivation to push my cases but I absolutely love scumhunting (and finding out who's town). That's why I read games without actually playing them, all the time.
Sure, I don't have many strong suspicions but my reads are there. What do you think about my Kirsche case? What do you think about my SB, Proto, Izhuark townreads, which I outed? This game my townreads are mostly stronger than my scumreads. I think that's because scum aren't posting much, other than Kirsche. I've been debating whether I should explain all of my townreads or not. In any case, if you want to know my read on someone I didn't talk about or my updated thoughts just ask me about it.
I stopped talking about roles when I realized that nobody was listening to what I was saying. I even discouraged Blitz about further rolespeccing. I still think that discussing about those was very important, even if you don't agree. And let me tell you that I hate rolespec, but in a game where you can decide a lot of the outcome by rolespeccing you just have to do it. I didn't do that to get a good role, I didn't care about which role I got (although I am so happy with the one I got, thank you Izhuark).
By what you're saying I'm pretty sure you haven't paid much attention to my posts, you should really ISO me.
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This is enough defense already. I don't intend to defend myself any further this game, unless it's deadline and I'm a wagon but hopefully it won't get that bad. I hate defending myself because it feels like a waste of time and I don't think anyone ever listens to what I'm saying.
Any questions on what I'm posting, just ask, but that's all I'll be replying to. Hopefully that will let you get a clearer view on my play than this post.
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Cam why did you give Kirsche ascetic. You're not supposed to give scum the scummy roles.
I guess we'll just have to LYNCH KIRSCHE tomorrow.
I don't have time to finish my other post, so here are some things I previously typed with some modifications:
@Cam: I gave you Ninja/watcher because I am townreading you, so that scum don't kill you both over good play + a good role, and so that scum don't get the roles that will benefit them the most. You'll see that Ninja/watcher is the second role in my role priority list, in one of my previous posts.
I'm unsure whether I should claim or not my role, I think I should though since it's kind of antitown (mostly just silly) but. I've made a code for it that I can refer to if I decide to keep it secret: IEGYZHSTVKVBKX
I would have tried to crumb it but my crumbs really suck.why does more careful = town? i'd think that as scum you'd want to make sure your (fabricated) case is airtight, especially if you're casing someone who most of the game seems to think pretty highly of.
Yeah, except I'm not talking about just carefulness. Being careful is not a dichotomy either way, different ways of being careful mean different things. SB is really bad at reading me in forum mafia (and sometimes in EM mafia too) and it's been long enough already for him to be paranoid about his read, just like I'm really bad at reading Refa and a lot of times I've ended up casing him out of paranoia (Note: This game is entirely different with regards to my Refa read). And when I was reading Refa other games, I had a similar attitude than SB now, except I kept it for myself in my thoughts QT. You try to pay closer attention to what the person you're bad at reading is doing and everything seems like it could come from scum, but then you're not sure because you know you're not very good at reading them.
I don't want this to look like I'm discrediting SB, it's just the only way I can explain my townread on him.is bad logic = scum?
No (that's why I said it was probably just a disagreement), but it still deserves an explanation.
Speaking of which, @Kirsche: Explain your D1 lynch priority (Like I pointed out here).while i don't disagree with the reasoning, are you implying that kirsche is trying to attack you but notreally... because you're obvtown? or like, is he just picking you "at random" (because you're easiest)?
Neither. I'm not obvtown (well, I feel obvtown, but nobody else seems to think the same lol) and I'm not the easiest target. That has nothing to do with the reason why I believe Kirsche expressed suspicion towards me. At the time Kirsche wrote about me, both SB and you were suspecting me. It feels like he just spoke about me because he saw a growing number of people suspecting me and he just wanted to join a possible lynch. There's also the fact that, unlike with SB and you, I see no legit reason why he would suspect me, and the way he says he has a "nagging feeling" like SB just looks fake to me.Wait, scum get actual characters? This is bullshit.
I got fakeclaim characters too with my role, what do you mean by this?
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## Cam - Archer
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Rolespec: I'm ok with giving Blitz the BPV but I think it'd be cool if it went to SB or Refa instead, since Blitz has barely done anything. I don't think scum will kill him unless they're desperate to get the EIMM starting.
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##unvote
##vote: Ms. Bunch
Izhuark, don't just give up, damn. You can vote Freyjadour and your wagons will at least be tied.
Kirby's Return to Mafia Land - Game Over
in Mafia
Posted
Sometimes I think about stuff and then I forget to post it in the thread.
I would be ok with hammering soon by the way, just not yet. I want to wait until people answer my questions, but this phase is getting boring.
Not saying this is scummy, but why scan Mancer first?
Also I don't like the last paragraph on this post by Boron, particularly when she mentions that what Randa has done is "certainly questionable and worth keeping an eye on". I'm not entirely sure why, but it doesn't feel natural.
I don't like Kirsche either when he says he's "interested" in seeing if Elieson flips scum, for the same reasons I didn't like what Boron said. I'm overall less suspicious of him though, but I'm less suspicious of Elieson as well so sigh. I feel like a reread of this whole game would probably help me, but that would be effort.