Mitsuki

Also there's no way that's the least scummy thing Freyjadour's done, considering there are five hours left in the phase and he could have put effort on actually getting a lynch he wanted, or thinking over who to vote more. His motivation is scummy.

Cut by Kirsche. @KIrsche: You said it was a "townslip" even though you made it clear you didn't believe it was alignment telling. Commenting on that without finding it scummy or townie but pointing out that it could come from scum is effectively shooting down townreads, whether they're real or potential (or both).

Checking my townread on Freyjadour I just don't agree with it anymore, because I remember switching to a townread on Radiant Dragon in Quickhammer mafia for very similar reasons and he was scum. Fourth post in a row, yay. Only half an hour left for me.

If everything remains the same I'm changing my vote to Freyjadour. I don't like his last post at all because when you're town you put effort at deadline, instead of switching to a null and then not giving a fuck about it, or about anything else. SPECIALLY when there are still several hours left in the phase.

I was making this huge defense post for Izhuark when I realized that Boron's right and he's had less content than in other previous games. I don't have enough time to check properly (I'll stop having SF access in less than an hour) though, so ugh. There are differences either way, he justifies his play less by appealing to his inability to do stuff better. Still a townread, but I'm conflicted. I won't vote there though, unless it's absolutely necessary. Izhuark please post more. I'm kind of lost, almost nobody is posting and things aren't moving. Remember, I'm running out of time so we should discuss who to lynch now.

I don't know what to answer to you other than pointing out the fact that you're wrong. What do you think of the actual content in my Kirsche case?

that was directed at Freyjadour, not SB SB what pressure are you talking about, I've literally felt no pressure this game

Nope you're not leaving just like that. Explain that vote, and also please read the thread and update your thoughts, because you're rather short on content.

Votals 1.π Izuhark (4): Mancer, Clarinets, Michelaar, Boron Ms. Bunch (3): Randa, Kirsche, SB Clarinets (2): Refa, Ms. Bunch Kirsche (2): Izuhark, Mitsuki Randa (2): Blitz, Cam Not voting: Elieson, Proto There are approximately 5 hours and 20 minutes until phase end.* You're welcome. * Maybe not, I didn't pay much attention when counting

This is part 3 of the second post I began typing this morning. I needed to ask Kirsche stuff to see I wasn't just overly paranoid as a reaction. But now everything is better explained so it was worth it. I agree with the stuff Refa pointed out about Kirsche, a lot of his reads seem to be contradicting and not following proper logic. Both Randa and me are in his priority list but say, what makes Randa so bad? He's commented on me, but not on Randa, so I don't see why he's up to lynching him. Moreover, he's also commented on Blitz, so why isn't he on Kirsche's priority list? This could just be a disagreement, but still. Quoting the whole thing, but focusing in the last sentence. I guess that as scum I could have pointed out that everyone is Kirby to try to look townier (I don't actually know, I haven't rolled scum in forever), but why mention it could come from scum when he's just null on that point from what I gather? It feels like Kirsche is just trying to paint me as scummy because people being wary of me is the new thing happening. Also trying to shoot down townreads on me when there's no reason to do so. I don't think shooting down townreads is a universal scumtell like other people do, but I only see scum wanting to do that when it's not really necessary. Only Cam was townreading me on that, and I'm just a gutread for Kirsche, so yeah. Meanwhile, as scum he has all the reasons to spread paranoia about someone else. ##unvote ##vote: Kirsche The people who nobody wants to lynch, apparently. Kirsche >>> Elieson > Michelaar. But if neither of these are possible, I'd lynch Clarinets over Boron. They're both null to me, but Clarinets is clearly worse, and he will likely produce a lot of noise through the game regardless of alignment.

I should at least mention that the reason why I had a bad gut feeling about Kirsche is that he doesn't seem to actually be scumhunting to find scummy content, but rather it feels like he's just looking for who to vote. This post feels the same. Gut, I don't think I can provide a better explanation. As for Michelaar, I didn't like his wording on this post. "I need" to vote. Who is telling you that you need to vote? And this post is similar. This is the weakest read though. I'm back to having Boron as a null. I'm ok with her newer content. Trying to get a read on Clarinets is impossible, it just feels like he's doing what he always does and I just don't see it as telling. I'm kind of wary of the wagon though, not seeing it as scummy but Clarinets just seems like the default lynch option when people don't have very good reads to go from (like it happened in Realm of Mirrors I believe).

Can you clarify what you mean by this? It kind of comes from nowhere and I'm confused. Specially last sentence.

I began two posts this morning and I didn't have time to finish either of them before my access to SF was cut. I'm not townreading Clarinets. I'm townreading you because of the way you're handling your suspicion on me. It just feels like you're overly paranoid about everything because you're not very good at reading me, and you kind of realize that. As scum you'd probably be less careful. I thought I had talked about Proto for some reason but apparently not. This is the post where I began townreading Proto. It's basically because of the first and last sentences of the first paragraph, they feel very genuine. I don't see scum!Proto outright saying that people should lynch him if they wanted, but that he's still going to do the same because that's the right thing to do from his point of view. Probably not a lot of people would do that as scum, either, but the fact that Proto was the one to say that is more relevant. Because even if they have content I have basically nothing to say about it, and they're probably more likely to post new stuff that I can analyze since they've posted more before. Having a vote also motivates people to post sometimes, so yeah. Kirsche, if you agree with something I've said you can point it out. If you disagree and it's time to consolidate on a lynch (around 24 h before deadline) you can point it out as well.

I forgot about one of the things I wanted to post already. I suggested everyone could be Kirby first. It's just normal that someone, reading their PM and seeing they're Kirby, will just assume that we are all Kirby indeed. I think that the weird thing here was the fact that I noticed everyone could be Kirby. And either way, if you know everyone is Kirby because the mod told you, you don't go and post about it in thread when someone asks about it. That would be really dumb. I don't think it's a good idea to rolespec anymore, by the way. Most people aren't listening, so there's no point. I pretty much didn't like anything he posted before my case, but sure, I'll specify: Here the suggestion to give bodyguard to town was bad, since there are more important roles, and other people talked about the mayor before. Totally useless post. We already know what has to be done. Again. Those are all his posts before my case on him. BUT [Here comes the actual content] This post by him seems super townie to me now. The way he's aware of what he's doing feels like town, specially when he says his Randa read was going nowhere but that he could still be scum. Reminds me of SB and his attitude towards his scumread on me, which I'm townreading him on. It also reminds me a lot of what happened in another game with 3rdCorinthian (I cased him and he replied a similar way, but I didn't give up my scumread). They have a similar attitude, so I believe this is probably a towntell, and not something null like I've considered before. ##unvote ##Vote: Elieson This is kind of a placeholder, since he has no content at all. Elie, you should get back and talk. I didn't like his only post though, it felt noncommittal. I expect town to be eager to post content for the first time, even if they haven't read the whole thread. Also, going from what Refa mentioned, he has had just enough time to do that, but he still hasn't, which makes it worse. I'm still not sure if this is just something I don't like or something truly scummy, but at least my vote does something here. I get a similar feeling from Kirsche/Michelaar/Boron but I'm not sure if this is all paranoia or what. I'm townreading 9/14 slots in this game, with the only nullread being Clarinets, so PoE would lead to very similar results. But I just don't know, I feel like most of my reads aren't very strong.

I've reconsidered Freyjadour and, while I don't feel as strongly as I first did, I don't see his replies to the cases on him as telling, just something he could do as either alignment. Still scumreading him. Nothing else new in this post, I'm just replying to people: @Clarinets: I absolutely recommend you to just include the relevant parts you comment on later in the quotes you post, and erase everything else. Otherwise it's hard to notice what you're actually talking about with regards to the post, which nullifies the usefulness of using quotes. The specific reasons I mentioned are me reading the cases and not agreeing with the logic, for reasons more or less separate from my actual reads (I am townreading both Proto and Izhuark, and they were part of the people being cased). The thing is, X is not a town thing to do either, as I mentioned. I don't think it's really productive to shoot down cases on ED1, even if I absolutely disagree with them. It will just stop things from happening, and that will lead to less content and less derivative reads. I will deal with the cases I don't like later on, when it's actually useful to getting the lynch I want (or when people ask me what I think about a certain person). I actually have no idea of what you're asking me to talk about, please specify.

Kirsche what do you think about the fact that Proto only cares about rolespec usually

Freyjadour is playing very differently from what I recall reading in Realm of Mirrors. He seemed obvtown to me there, I think the difference in playstyle also makes him scummier. Fight me Freyjadour. What do you think about this post by Izhuark, where he further explains his Kirsche "read"?

Sure. I'll mix answering these two questions plus further Izhuark defense in the same post. These are the events that lead to SB's vote on Izhuark: 1. Kirsche voted Proto. 2. Izhuark voted Kirsche. Pay a closer look to Kirsche's post. The first thing he says is that he's voting Proto because he's trying too hard. Now look at these two sentences by Izhuark: "What are you doing kirsche ? I really don't get your point" "Seriously this kind of comportment is at least anti-town". Now look at Kirsche's post again. Where is the reasoning? Now look at Izhuark's post again. Where is the reasoning? Conclusion: Kirsche seemed to vote Proto on being bad and Izhuark didn't like it and voted him on bad too. There is no reasoning in either post. The difference is Kirsche explained more later and Izhuark did too, but only to say he wasn't convinced about his read, which he pretty much gave away before. Do you think scum would just act like that? Dude is honest when he says he doesn't feel conviction in his read, for the simple fact that nobody would try to act like your reads are not worth it to be townread. As scum you want to be seen as someone who has conviction in your cases. First, to seem townie, convince people and lynch town. Second, because absolutely nobody townreads people on not having conviction, except yeah, apparently me. And nobody would go to the extent of trying to apply such lame reverse psychology stuff to seem townie, specially when it comes to a dude who has rather low self-confidence. Go check his play other games, you'll see what I mean. Now to the actual Izhuark case by SB: I don't like his vote either, but I don't see how any of this is scummy behaviour and not just Izhuark's playstyle/personality. Here you (SB) were assuming Izhuark understood Kirsche's intentions behind that vote, but I'm pretty sure he actually didn't. That is why Izhuark expressed confusion when he "cased" Kirsche. Mancer's case is just the same again. The vote was bad. There was no conviction. But it's a playstyle/personality thing, not a scummy thing. Same for Clarinet's case. And now to my earlier townread on Izhuark: When I claimed Kirby, I expected one two things to happen: Either I was Kirby and Prims had just decided to put my PM as a sample, which seemed too dumb and too much of a coincidence, or we all were Kirby. I thought that, if it was the latter, someone would go and say that they were Kirby too, which would make them more likely to be town, even if it wasn't confirmed. Scum could just go and claim that they're Kirby too but I'd expect them to be more skeptical about it by default, since it'd imply claiming flavor. Scum don't have the town's information, nor do they know if the town PM is exactly the same for everyone or not. Definitely not an amazing way to get a townread but still worth taking into account. Given the fact that the dude who answered doesn't seem to be very daring, I thought that my townread was stronger than if someone else had. And since he's been lynched on really, really terrible cases before, I thought it'd be extra important for him to be townread, before everyone else wagoned him on bad cases again. Sadly it has ended up happening either way.

##Vote: Freyjadour I had the same sort of feeling as Refa, and I agree with his point. In my case I'm more bothered by the fact that Freyjadour just accepts that Izhuark could either be lynched or not at deadline, and he mentions he'd be ok with the lynch, but he doesn't give his thoughts on him. The thing that I find the most scummy about him, though, is how he's posting a lot of useless stuff and repeating things. The few original things he's posted aren't good, either, which doesn't help him. I was wondering if he was just a new player from another community who felt the need to post about that stuff because he didn't know how stuff works at SF mafia, I didn't realize that was Freyjadour until Refa voted for him. So it feels like he's just repeating stuff for the sake of seeming contributing. I'll talk about Izhuark in my next post.

@Michelaar: Since we're more or less out of RVS already, when you vote you should give the reason why you're voting who you're voting. It's ok if you're just agreeing with someone else, but it's important to point out why you agree as well. That people can see what you're thinking and get a better read on you. So, why are you voting Izhuark?

Sorry for talking about roles again, I think it's important to use the time when I don't have any actual reads to pursue to sort that stuff properly. I suggest that everyone makes a list of roles starting from the one we'd rather give to the person we consider the towniest person with the best play (the one we want alive the most) to the ones we'd rather give to the scummiest people (the ones we want lynched the most). Here's my list: Later we make a list from most townie player with the best play to the scummiest person. During twilight, we just sum all scores given for each role and assign the role with the lowest score to player with the lowest score (towniest), and so on. If we lynch scum and they mess the order we just erase the person and role affected from the final list and that's it. It's a bit tedious but it'll be worth it.

@SB: I hope to contribute significantly to the game later on, when scum post. Stay tuned. It'd be pretty hypocritical for me to argue against the current cases when I'm asking people not to do the same for me and it wouldn't let the game advance, but it's worth mentioning that I have specific reasons to disagree with all of the cases presented so far, regardless of my reads on said slots. I'll talk about those later if people have a wagon at deadline, or before if I see it fit. @Mancer: We're not wasting time rolespeccing, we're using rolespeccing to engage in discussion and decide one of the important parts of the game. Most people who rolespecced don't/didn't have reads at the time either. The fact that giving each role to someone different is a hard decision to make with no clear optimal results is not a valid reason to avoid discussing it. We can optimize results, at least to an extent, if we talk about what to do. @Clarinets: If you want to hold against someone the fact that it was pointed out that everyone was Kirby you should hold it against me, since I am the one who suggested everyone could be Kirby first.

We can't "delay" distributing roles, we have to set all of them during twilight 1. Speaking of which, we should all decide on who to give each role to beforehand, since we won't be able to talk about that during twilight. I didn't pay attention to the fact that roles are assigned in the thread and not privately, but I still think we should follow what I said. I'd give Izhuark some role like tracker or watcher, and we can maybe decide on a pool of possible targets beforehand. Not sure if that would be counterproductive though. Also, I'd give Blitz ascetic/empowerer because he's probably town and otherwise, or maybe regardless of that, he's DEFINITELY DYING SOON. As much as it saddens me, the last person I'd give the mix roles to is Refa. Sorry dude, but I can't read you properly and if you're scum you're probably the person who would make the most out of those roles, given what Izhuark and Proto pointed out.

Good, Izhuark is also town, even if scum are definitely also Kirby. As scum I don't see him posting that, he'd be afraid of making some sort of mistake. His second post is also townie because the idea is townie and good. Again, as scum I don't see him posting like that. I forgot to mention this, but I don't want you guys to argue against my townreads either unless they contradict your reads. You can ask me to explain them better, I know a lot of the time it's hard to understand why I think a certain thing is telling. Man I want to case someone already.

##Vote: SB Great, deadline is at 3 am for me. Definitely not missing that. We'll have to more or less come with a decision at least 3 hours before that, because not only do I go to sleep way earlier, but I have my browser programmed so that it stops letting me access some websites (including SF) at some points, including 3 hours before deadline, so that I don't waste much time and I go to sleep early. I could technically remove that but what would be the point, if I set that kind of stuff and then removed it the first time it's slightly inconvenient for me. Oh and I have an exam the 16th, I know that's pretty far away but I always hope I'm nightkilled early and it never happens. Just so that you know that I will be less active around 5 days before the exam. I also have my browser set so that it prevents me from accessing SF at certain times during the day so I'll probably post walls. I know you all love walls. Actual content: Whoever gets the vig should be shooting in the next phase/relatively early (depending on the ratio of town/scum lynches we have) or be lynched. This is so that we make sure they're not scum saving the shot to make it easier to win lategame. I mostly agree with Blitz with regards to roles to give, but I don't think bomb is that useful. I'd also prefer giving the towniest people roles that are scummy in nature, like ascetic/empowerer, just so that scum don't have them and they don't nightkill our good roles. And finally, I'm self proclaiming myself as cleared because my PM is exactly the same as the sample PM in the OP. That is kind of a joke, but I thought it was worth mentioning. Unless we all are Kirby for some reason.