Renall

Efficiently? Yeah, it is impossible. We aren't gonna level abuse him just so you can pretend to have a point when the entire method is ridiculously inefficient. Alright then, screw him. What about the other ones? Why are we bothering with Corple at all in efficient play? That is, why separate Corple [Claude] from the other Corples if they're all completely pointless? I could have Rana use Reserve. Or Sety [Claude]. We're not playing ranks, so why level any Corple at all, Claude or otherwise? EDIT: In fact, if Corple is this bad, why isn't every Corple bottom of bottom? Even the shittiest replacements have a role (since they're filling in for somebody who presumably otherwise would've seen use).

Ignoring me is a really immature way of winning an argument, especially since people with realistic and fact-based arguments are making a much better point than Athena ever did screaming at me. I guess there's no longer a point in debating, since this is no longer a tier list debate thread. Maybe I'll start one, since I don't ignore people for no reason.

Not much. He's bottom tier. Just like Corple already is. I'm asking honestly which Corple winds up being better. If he can promote, Corple [Levin] winds up better. If he can't, then he's no better than a Corple that has Fin or Noish or whoever as a dad. That's what I want to see, whether that's impossible or so unreasonable as to be not worthwhile. Don't be blinded by this. Remember, it's easy to say "Lyre and Fiona are both godawful, why even debate this?" but if it's a Lyre vs. Fiona debate, that's kinda the crux of it. Well, Sharlow isn't Corple. What is Hannibal doing all day in ch9? Or ch10? I didn't ask whether Corple promoting was "easy" or "reasonably likely." I asked if it was "impossible." It isn't, unless someone can find a problem with this.

One use of those two staves leaves you needing 30 Libro uses, which is two repairs or 10k. I'm unconvinced that's "impossible." And couldn't he inherit an intact status staff and sell it? Hell, any Corple could do this, it's even a pretty good idea for Claude to pass Silence to that Corple for repair fodder.

Other staves besides Libro exist. He can inherit Return and Warp. He could get 6 levels just warping Hannibal back into the castle and then selling it, 3.5 doing the same with Return. That's half of the way. It's a little silly, but it isn't impossible if you've made the decision to pass him Holsety. Presumably you did that intending to get some use out of it, after all. How much more efficient is [Lex] and [Dew]?

Ok wow, my memory is even worse than I thought. Ok seriously, if we're considerign this, I don't even think Corple/Levin will promote...at all. Not under reasonable circumstances. If you can demonstrate to me that he cannot promote at all, while being as reasonable as possible (no sandbagging) I will concede the point to you.

You are not explaining how my arguments are not valid. In fact, you've upgraded to not even reading what the hell I say anymore. So far it's never been anything different. I'm not saying anything different either. I just hope to keep saying it until you get it. Reserve Has 1-10 range. I dunno, you're not seeming to get it when I type it in normal black text. Maybe you'll finally get it through your skull with flashy colors? Corple [Levin] can buy it. It's a disadvantage, but it isn't enough to make him patently inferior. Also I guess you've never heard of this Libro thing. That Corple starts with. That has 1-10 range. Wow! ..... If you concede that 1-10 range means he won't get attacked, why did you just argue AGAINST it? It's bad enough you aren't reading what I type [it's boiled down to you repeating "WE R COMPARING CORPLE!!!oneone" over and over] but I'm starting to think you aren't even reading what YOU type. You're an idiot if you can't understand the distinction. Corple may choose to do one of two things: 1) Stay at 1-10 range. If he does this, he's unlikely to be attacked. His durability still matters, but less so if he... 2) Stays a little closer and helps when healing isn't needed by attacking. Corple [Levin] does 1 just fine and 2 a little more than halfway decently. Corple [Claude] does 1 pretty well and 2 terribly. Corple [Lex] benefits from 1 a lot more but has Corple [Levin]'s Reserve issue, and doesn't do 2 well at all but gets more exp from it. Corple [Everyone Else] does 1 about as well as Corple [Levin] or maybe a bit worse since Levin can pass some staves if needed, and is bad at 2. 1 + 1.5 = 2.5. That's essentially Corple [Levin]. 1.5 + 0.5 = 2. That's essentially Corple [Claude]. 1 + 1 = 2. That's Corple [Lex] or something, maybe he's a little better this is obviously just an illustration. 1 + 0.5 = 1.5. That's everyone else. Which is really not that much. Remember, he never needs to buy a tome. Holsety should last him to the end of the game unless Levin completely broke it and never repaired it at all. That's 3k already. He could get a ring, or another staff passed down and sell it. He could grab two villages. Patty could give him a little money. This is nothing compared to what some characters need. And again you fail to understand the concept of devaluation of roles. As far as I'm concerned, Levin Corple's offense win means nothing, simply because it is inconvenient for him to ever use it in most cases. For one? He has shit move. For two? He will only ever see an attack once a turn unless you want to use his crappy enemy phase as opposed to another unit ORKOing consistently on the enemy phase [Which Levin Corple does not do] And this once a turn is assuming he can actually REACH a target, have fun doing that with 5 mov. Three, this awesome durability he has? It's not that awesome. Barring Charsima/Terrain, he can face around 30% hit rates on enemies while getting 2RKOd by anything not slinging around spells. You've admitted he wins, but you don't care. I don't care whether you care or not. A better character tiers higher. None of your other arguments mean anything, because they have nothing to do with Corple. I am comparing Corple [Levin] to Corple [Claude]. You refuse to explain how anyone else's performance has anything to do with this. Do not say "devaluation of roles." Do not use that phrase. Explain devaluation of roles, why it means anything, and why you're pulling it out now for Corple and not for anyone else (I know the answer, but still). All the disadvantages you have listed apply to every other Corple. These problems are what make Corples of all sizes lower tier material. However, when and if Corple [Levin] does engage in combat, even if it is only a few more times over the game's run, he wins. Indisputably. Nobody else's performance means dick when comparing Corple to Corple. You're putting Marcus in a debate between Eliwood and Hector. I don't care. I'm not talking about the others. So? Of course I'm not throwing Corple at things and trying to turn him into a killing machine. There are a lot of enemies. If the situation comes up and Corple happens to be there, which is possible but not necessarily commonplace, he can potshot one of them. Why shouldn't he, if nobody needs healing and he's already promoted? If he does, he does much better to be doing it with Holsety. You can't dispute this, unless you're going to argue now that Corple cannot attack if he's promoted and has a tome and is close. I recognize this doesn't happen a lot. That's part of why he's bottom/low tier. That's irrelevant, we know this already. I'm talking about within these shit characters that are Corple, which Corple is least shitty in the rare instance where he gets to attack? It's Corple [Levin], every time, by a mile. Corple always has 1-10 range with Libro. The person Reserve benefits most is him, as it gives more exp. And I question that (see below). It does not mean nothing. Say you have AzelLeen vs ClaudeLeen. AzelLeen is naturally the better choice in raw combat, due to pursuiting with magic swords. My question to you, is who gives a fuck? Nobody uses Leen for fighting because she's useless at it, the end. Just like how Corple is bad at combat relative to the rest of the team. "but there's a much smaller difference between the corples!!" Same logic. Different scale. But you're wrong. Leen [Azel] is better. You just proved it. Who cares if she's usually dancing, and if her damage is bad? It exists. You can't ignore part of what makes a character good just because it doesn't matter to you. That's unfair, disingenous, and suggests you aren't interested in honest debate. Not until you get it through your head that devaluation of roles matters, the end, and if you think otherwise you're wrong. Change the list. I could just as easily ask who Reserve is benefiting other than Corple. How often are enough people injured that we need one person overhealing essentially the entire army? Usually when I Reserve spam, all of two people really need any healing, and Rana and Nanna just sit there idling their engines because they just as easily could have healed, couldn't really do a whole lot else, but didn't need to because Corple did it. Really, Reserve's only benefit is promoting sooner, and what the fuck does Corple [Claude] even want out of promotion? He gets Continue with shit AS. At least other Corples might have combat skills to make promotion worth it. Hell, might as well use Dew instead for a dad, then at least his Reserve spamming's cheaper. Not as expensive to buy off somebody either. Probably pays for itself by 30. Other staves exist. Levin can even pass some of them down if you felt like it. And promoting early is only desirable if Corple can do anything with it. He doesn't really gain much if Claude is his dad. It's there, and it's something, but it's less worthwhile. Really, don't we find resource investment more valuable for units that can do something with the resources? Corple [Claude] can promote earlier, as can Corple [Lex], but they've got a lot less potential.

So when you refuse to provide any valid arguments it's okay because it's your topic, but when four people agree on something that is patently obvious you make up nonsense about an economic argument you don't actually understand and refuse to justify or explain its validity and applicability to this situation I'm the one going "no u." Oh, and change the damn list. "If we allow (Healername) to be attacked, we're clearly playing badly. The tier player never makes mistakes and always prevents (Healername) from being in a situation at turn's end where they will be harmed. Therefore, (Healername's) durability isn't relevant." This argument was made in the FE10 tier list. It was stupid there, and it is stupid here. And it's doubly stupid for you to raise it because if Corple is attacking, of course he has some chance of being attacked. Corple [Levin] can 1-10 staff range and not be attacked as well. He can choose to do that, just as any other Corple can choose to attack. The difference is if Corple [Levin] chooses to attack for any reason, he is offensively and defensively in a better position. This isn't arguable. It's a fact. He is the best Corple in combat, and you have yet to demonstrate any significant advantage for any other Corple except Claude allowing Reserve to be passed down (a resource argument which has no legs at all compared to what other characters can get undisputed in other comparisons) and Lex giving him Elite (which was Mekkah's argument, I believe). Are either of these things superior to a Corple that can do more or less the same things they can do or if he for whatever reason decides to attack, is better at attacking? No. Change. The. List. EDIT: Oh and "LevinCorple's offense is still crap relative to the rest of the team" means nothing. How many times do we have to point this out? We're comparing Corple to a different version of himself. This is not Corple vs. Lakche, because Lakche is tiered higher, which means we already know she is better, and no one is arguing that. Also, change the list.

No, he isn't. If we tiered this way, no pairing but the best pairing would be viable ever, and siblings would be inseparable from one another (part of the reason Patty [Holyn] is good is just because it's a good pairing; separate her from Faval [Holyn], and she's not necessarily that good). This is not a best pairings or best use of fathers tier list. When Corple [Levin] exists, we do not consider the possible existence of Sety [Levin] and Arthur [Levin]. Hell, we don't consider the possible existence of Sety [Levin] when Arthur [Levin] exists. Because that wouldn't be fair to either of them. Why suddenly change our tune when it's Corple? That isn't Athena's resource argument anyway, as his at least is actually relevant (though getting in a tizzy over a couple villages is baffling given the resources other characters get freely considered). Just like Cyas isn't punished for denying us Sety in FE5. Just like Karel isn't punished for denying us Harken in FE7. EDIT: Is Lex a resource? No. We consider the children benefiting from Elite. Not from denying Elite to someone else. Because that turns resources into punishments. The sword twins [Lex] do not tier lower because they deny Lex to children who might need Elite. If you want to compare how much better, say, Lachesis's kids are with Elite or something, just fucking compare Lakche [Lex] and Delmud [Lex]. You don't punish Corple for denying Holsety any more than you deny Delmud [Levin] for it. You just, you know, compare him to Arthur or Sety [Levin] and determine who is better. And lo and behold, those two are Top Tier and Corple is still shit. The system works! EDIT EDIT: And if Levin is a resource, Arthur and Sety both go under Shanan and Aless. I'm serious. Because each denies the other Holsety, and we're punishing people for that sort of thing, and Shanan and Aless get no such punishment. Obviously that's absurd, right?

NOT before you read that link about devaluation of roles that I posted. I have read it. It doesn't apply here. Why is this so important to you? It's fucking Corple. I don't care that much about him either, but I don't see why this is such a big deal that something which has been pretty solidly established is being ignored because you don't feel like it. EDIT: Let me explain why it doesn't apply. In other FE games, who to deploy is an economic decision, and deployment numbers are pretty much the entire focus of the tier list. Devaluation is important because a team has limited numbers and there is little point to having lots of people with redundant roles. In this game, uniquely, you can deploy everyone. Therefore Corple never needs to fight for a spot as "a combat unit" or "a healer." He exists once he's recruited, and can keep existing doing any of these things as the player wishes until the end of the game. We therefore measure his entire performance against the entire performance of the unit he's up against. It doesn't matter whether other people can do what he does better, because that won't stop him from being deployable. EDIT EDIT: And just to be clear, the unit we are comparing him to is other Corples. And he performs better than they do. So... yeah. If this can't convince you, I have no idea what will. Change the damn list.

Jesus Christ, you can keep saying that buzzword and it will keep not meaning anything. Corple [Levin] is the best Corple can be offensively and defensively, and is not substantially different enough as a healer to be weaker. He is the best Corple that exists. Therefore, he should be tiered higher than any other Corple. The end. Do it. Change the list. I'm demanding it. All arguments I have seen or made about it have convinced me of something that should have been patently obvious. There is no such thing as devaluation of roles in this game. As you may be aware (but probably aren't), you can deploy everyone. Corple's existence does not stop any other character from existing. Corple's deployment does not stop any other character from deploying. Corple fighting does not stop other characters from fighting, nor does his healing stop other characters from healing if you decide to have them do it instead. In the world where Corple [Levin] exists, Arthur and Sety have different fathers. Corple is still probably a worse fighter than them. But in a world where Corple [someone Else] exists and Levin was unpaired (to get rid of your BUT SOMEONE ELSE SHOULD GET HOLSETY irrelevant bullshit), Corple is now a vastly worse fighter and roughly the same as a healer. So, uh, how is he better relative to the team by picking a worse father? Your argument fails on every possible level. Change the damn list and then we can put the stupid Corple argument behind us.

Illustrate a reason Corple HAS for being attacked, don't just say "oh he can still get attacked" because I'm not under the impression there's any excuse for it. Because... we've never once ever said "oh, this person is a healer, therefore they will never get attacked and their durability is irrelevant." In any tier list. Ever. Laura fans will sure be glad to hear about this one! Now who's the one bullshit dodging? He is reliant on skill activation to kill things. Everybody else is not. Thus, Corple's offense is bollocks to the rest of the team, the end. The rest of the team is irrelevant to how Corple performs relative to other Corples. If you cannot understand this simple point, you are not worth debating with, because you have no clue what you're talking about and nothing will ever convince you of anything. You aren't allowed to bring the rest of the team into a comparison between Corple and himself. If we're debating Dorcas and Bartre, we do not say "Yeah well Dorcas isn't very good because he's not Athos." We weren't talking about Athos. And I wasn't talking about the rest of the team. If you bring up the rest of the team again, I will take it as a clear sign you do not actually want to debate individual Corples and just want to end the Corple argument without changing things based on what people have agreed and move on. I'll move on, but I'll also call the list bullshit. He can one-round. Play the game sometime and maybe you can see even a "regular" Corple do it. Not always, but sometimes. And Corple [Levin] doesn't do it significantly worse than the other Corples do. No because we already stuffed insane amounts of gold into him just to promote, why should he get even MORE? Didn't you just question ClaudeCorple getting 15k to repair his reserve? Sure I did. And it may or may not happen. But since when is Reserve his only long-range healing option? It DOES matter here. Devaluation of roles comes into play. Holsety Corple's combat is not impressing me because all it is is worse everybody else is doing now for a grand total of one chapter, and with 5 move he won't even use it that much. Since when was a combat unit comparable to Hannibal [Concrete durability instead of avoid, reliant on skill activation, same move, healing is the only difference] a good thing? Now you're just making up nonsense. How good one Corple is relative to another Corple is wholly irrelevant to how good Corple is relative to everyone else, especially when the Corples are tiered so close to each other. I haven't fucking brought up "the team," stop bringing up irrelevant and meaningless arguments. This is not a "best pairings" or "best full setup" tier list. It is an individual tier list. And more to the point, the comparison is of versions of a single character. No other character's existence means anything here. Yeah maybe you should play the game. It would answer a lot of your questions, like what happens if you try to sell a legendary. Half the reason I never listed LevinCorple in the first place. And we have asked that the Corples be spread out a bit because some of the pairings are worthwhile. But if you refuse to even consider it because of magic nonsense arguments that don't follow from anything, I guess I can't do anything about it since it's your topic.

But does Charisma and Berserk outweigh the rings? Berserk doesn't. Elite might (but you could pair Sylvia and Lex and get it on Leen as well). Charisma might. Charisma is very nice to have. Laylea is also made of toilet paper and dreams, however, so keeping her in Charisma range of everyone is a little, well, shaky.

Maybe you haven't, but it's been Brighton's argument since day one. I'm not your strawman Brighton, sorry. No, it isn't. You know how Nils in Kinship's Bond dying in one hit shouldn't be a problem because he is NEVER going to be attacked if you play that chapter right? It's exactly like that. So how is it a bullshit dodge? It's true. Corple could be attacked. And if he wanted to fight for some reason - he can use magic, after all - his durability would matter. If the player decides to use him offensively in the name of efficiency, they might be interested in seeing how well he can stand up to being put at risk. It's not even marginally. Holsety NEEDS a skill activation to kill. Everybody else on the team that is worth a damn....has no excuse not to be ORKOing everything on the map, and they do it with more move. Corple's performance, Holsety or not, relative to the rest of the team, is shit. So who cares about access to Holsety? He can severely weaken people. He can pick people off reliably (he won't generally miss). Here's some numbers for you to ignore because you don't play the game anyway: Corple [Azel] at lv20 has Pursuit and Continue and, at best, Wind (using fire tomes would be stupid). That gives him 19 AS (Claude's Corple would have a meager 14), so he hits with ~34 Mt twice and Continues about 40% of the time on either hit. Corple [Levin] at lv20 has Continue and Critical and a rather large SKL (~20 at this point), then you factor in kills with Holsety. His AS is 38, so he hits with 54 Mt once, has a close to 50% chance of Continue, and a better than one-third (and possibly as good as 40-50%) chance of a critical. And he's defensively better. Comparing Corples to Corples, his offense is anything but bad. And if he ever gets the Pursuit Ring (I am not saying he deserves it or realistically ever should be given it, but he can use it), he destroys any other Corple offensively. Wrong, Corple healing from long range has better durability. LevinCorple is not invincible unless his avo is high enough to block out any enemy's hit rates. And...it doesn't. So Corple [Levin] can't heal from long range now too, yet also dodge better if he goes into combat range, making him a better Corple than those other Corples? Nice to know. Not eliminating the fact that it's awful relative to the rest of the team by Final. You apparently have no idea what you're talking about. I'm talking about the best Corple. Not where Corple needs to be on the tier list. How good anyone whose name is not Corple is does not matter. Except he doesn't. You can level him to 30 and he's still stuck with being unable to consistently ORKO shit unless he activates a skill. Everybody else can do it without a skill. This is not good combat, at all. "Everybody else" does not matter in tiering Corples within the set of units that are Corple. I don't give a flying fuck how good anyone else is, they don't matter here. And there's no point in doing so right now as, in the current list, all Corples are adjacent to each other in the same tier. If we changed that, we might have to compare a Corple to another unit, but for now there is no benefit in doing so.

It's perfectly okay for CorpleLevin to take well over 50k in funds for staff spamming, return rings to sell, and villages. But it's a mortal sin of CorpleClaude doesn't even get a fraction of this favoritism. Hey kids, let's play "Spot the inconsistency!" Um, I never said he needed any of that. You did. Play Corple [Levin] without any of the favoritism given to any other Corple. He's still just about as good. And then he has better SPD and Holsety on promotion. He is better. Even if marginally. You are the only one who is incapable of understanding this. Saying "his durability doesn't matter because he's never close to the fighting" is a bullshit dodge. Calill's durability isn't irrelevant because "you can just have her spam Meteor!" No, we still compare durability there. It matters. Corple's durability with a holy weapon that gives him +20 SPD is better. Corple's offense with a 30 Mt holy weapon is better. His staff performance is nearly the same, and he levels at almost the same rate as any non-Lex Corple. And then you can, but do not have to, favor him with better results than other Corples because he at least sort of has a chance at being a combat unit. How is that not better? Honestly, I'd rank them Levin > Lex > Claude if anything. And maybe Lex on top even, since Corple [Lex] is Sharlow - Berserk Staff (which doesn't matter) + existing DEF. And he can still use Reserve, if he can afford it. Starting without good staves might be enough to keep Levin on top though.

Azel/Tiltyu and Fury/Levin are easier pairings. If you aren't experienced, I recommend those even though Tiltyu/Levin is a better pairing. If you aren't cheating or very well aware of how the pairing system works, odds are you won't even properly pair Fury and Claude or Tiltyu and Levin. EDIT: And Dew is fine for Ayra. Anyone is fine for Ayra (except Alec, as his skills are entirely redundant). Her kids can't be screwed up. You can give them Claude as a father, they're still fine.

So right, Corple [Levin] is slightly better than other Corples. That is what you said, isn't it? How well does Corple [Claude] stand up against Ishtar? Poorly, you say? Well then, Corple [Levin] must be better! Hell, even if all he does is heal, having Holsety equipped to increase his defense makes him a better unit. And before promotion, it's essentially the same. It isn't like Reserve is going to be in pristine condition once Claude's done with it. Where exactly is he getting the repair money for it, again? In the scenario at about 1:20 on, Julius can only attack Ishtar (who can retaliate) OR any of five allied units, some of whom cannot. He will choose Ishtar every time. Berserked units always target their own troops. Always. You're correct, status vulnerability for the player is essentially irrelevant, and so is Berserk (aside from a few exploits using the sword).

No it's not. See page 7 for the earlier mess regarding it. But usually it is. It just isn't guaranteed.

Just to be clear: I'm pretty sure a Berserk enemy will never target your units if it can target its own, and if it can't target its own it won't attack at all (at least I believe that's the behavior of a berserked Arion). That doesn't really make Berserk any more useful in any situation other than berserking Julius in ch10 to kill one of his own units and leave, and you have to do that with the sword anyway.

Leaf inherits his items from Ethlin. Granted, I have no idea why you'd let the Elite Ring leave at the start of ch4 with either of them (or Fin).

Yeah but we're not comparing Fin and Oifaye. Oifaye is one of the best characters in the game. He's top of High. We're just talking about moving Fin up. There's lots of folks between Fin and Oifaye before we'd even start comparing the two. What village bonuses are available to Fin in the first generation, and should we assume he's likely to get them? I know there's at least one that gives +STR, and honestly he's not a bad pick for it because he can make more use of it later (especially if he's a father and has to make do with Iron for a bit). EDIT: Oh yes and let's not forget, Fin gets +1 STR/SKL/DEF from Cuan by conversation. Factor in that and a village and you're looking at a swing of 3-4 STR on a unit with Pursuit, which ain't too bad for Fin.

While Faval is a very powerful unit, and impossible to really screw up (unless you forgot to get Brigid her bow, which is just dumb, and even then he's got whichever of the Hero/Killer Lester isn't using), I'm not sure I'd put him over Rana or Fee just because they've got time and utility on him. A unit that can't even counter better have some godlike other qualities. And Faval does have godlike offense... once per player phase. Is that really better than flying + speed and/or staves and Staff Chick?

I usually have Alec and Noish attack the same guy on the player phase. Yes, Sigurd is much better because of his offense, but offense doesn't necessarily always work in your favor. On the player phase, killing a guy means he can't attack next turn, but on the enemy phase, killing too many attackers can be bad news. I'm just saying it's not his durability alone that's really all that godlike. And maligning some of the other characters' durability at the expense of pimping Sigurd or Levin is a bit disingenuous. Many of them are pretty good for durability, but none of them can't be killed.

I use the best weapons almost exclusively (Hero weapons, Sigurd's Silver Sword, Elwind/Holsety). I have never, ever, in any of my games reached 50 kills with any of them before. I know PEMN but I mean, there aren't that many enemies in the game if you don't let them reinforce (which is inefficient). There are only so many weapons you can possibly get up to 50 kills, and even if you could do so by manipulating killshots without wasting efficiency, how many weapons can you get there before Gen 2? Two of them? I could see accepting the Hero Sword as hitting 50. It seems decently likely if you manipulate it. Otherwise though, I mean really? It seems highly improbable.

Sigurd and Levin are anything but invincible. Sigurd only has 9/3 as his DEF/RES base and 35 HP. Alec has 32 HP and 7 DEF and Noish has 33 HP and 8 DEF. By 20ish, Sigurd's HP will be a little better than those guys have, but he ties DEF with Alec and loses to Noish. If Sigurd's durability is so great, why is he tying his cavaliers and a mere +2 DEF up on Midir in the end? Granted he crushes him in HP but Midir isn't exactly supposed to be a tank. Where durability is concerned, Cuan and Lex come closest in Gen 1. And their durability over Sigurd isn't huge. Certainly they're both killable. Levin only gets durability with Holsety and promotion, whereupon he'll have 45 base Evade which is pretty good. He never gets double-digit DEF. His HP is never as good as a child's is (Sety has more HP at base than Levin has until 19 and ends with almost 10 more). And all of this happens at the end of ch4. Last I checked he's around longer than that. The children of Gen 2 can be "invincible," even given slightly harder generics. Nobody in Gen 1 is really "invincible." Except maybe Levin. At the end of the generation.