Knife

Yeah, I'm just really concerned for Sakurai

Zero Suit Pros: -Frame 1 jab, frame 3 invincible utilt, zair, frame 4 OoS Up B (that kills), and safe on shield nair/bair make her neutral better than people like to believe. It's not the best neutral (mostly because of deadzones), but its better than most non-top tiers. -Best advantage state in the game. Only character that can come close is maybe Ryu. She has the capability to kill you at nearly any percent. Uair>Uair>Up B can kill at any percent depending on rage and stage positioning. Nair/Down smash>offstage Flipkick spike kills any character above 50% and below that gimps characters with weak enough vertical recovery. Optimal ZSS is a very scary thing, watch Nairo for more examples of how he utilizes her advantage. -Above average disadvantage state with Flipkick allowing her to escape lots of juggles. She is kinda susceptible to combos otherwise being a tall fast faller, but the ability to safely escape most strings/juggles is great for her. -Very safe recovery. Not quite Sheik tier recovery, but pretty close having an option in Flipkick, tether, Up B, along with a really good double jump. Challenging her recovery offstage can get you spiked in return or ledge trump baired. Usually a better idea to focus on ledge trapping. -Ties in with advantage state, but she has a lot of kill power even outside of the Up B and Flipkick spike. Bair is safe on shield, has good range, and kills around 90% near the ledge, less with rage/lighter character. If for some reason the opponent lived past 140%, you can just downthrow up air to finish them off (will stay a true combo till absurdly high percents). The non spike hitbox of Flipkick also has a lot of power, killing around 80% near the ledge. -Very good mobility and high jumps, allowing her to chase opponents easier. Very good frame data overall, especially with frame 1 jab and frame 3 invincible utilt. Cons: -Her grab is the slowest in the game tied with Samus at 16 frames of startup for the standing grab and 69 frames of recovery, active for 13 frames. For comparison, Mario has a standing grab with startup at frame 6 and 29 frames of recovery, active for 2 frames. However, I am sort of reluctant to call it the worst grab since she has throw combos that can potentially lead to death and setups into the grab with zair/Paralyzer/nair.Without setups, she'll probably have to read you to get grabs. If ZSS whiffs a grab, can mean death or a huge combo. If opponents are very good with shielding and rolling, could be a problem for ZSS. -Subpar smashes in Fsmash and Usmash. Fsmash has pretty weak power for a smash attack and not very good frame data. Upsmash rarely kill until high percents (if your opponent lives to a high enough percent where usmash kills and you play ZSS, you failed) and ZSS is usually better off catching the landing or juggling with uair. Dsmash is pretty good however, leading into setups and being able to cover ledge options/catch spotdodges and rolls. -Light weight. Even lighter than Sheik at 81. Bad matchups? Usually considered to be Pikachu and maybe Diddy Kong... that's it. Even matchups? Sheik, Ryu, Greninja, Yoshi, Villager, possibly Olimar and Kirby. Good matchups? Everyone else. She is very close to being Sheik level, but she has 2 bad matchups and 7 even matchups while Sheik has no bad matchups and 5 even matchups. Definitely #2 though.

Finally, no more new characters

ZSS actually has better kill power than Ike. I'll do a write up on this soon, just been busy with finals.

How is this game? The things scaring me are how massive the over world is (I don't want to spend 15 minutes running across a field wtf) and overcomplicated battle system.

FE is already pretty over represented in Smash 4 (5 reps, 4 if you don't count Lucina). That said if they do add someone, it better be an important recent (as in post Gamecube era) non-sword wielder. A mage like Micaiah could work, or a lord type character from the latest game. Everyone else just seems like supporting characters tbh, everyone so far is a lord or the main character.

Do ZSS

Loool alright respect. No point in insulting each other's skill levels. I do think the meta could have been pushed more too, but I think we're making different points here. You are saying MK is totally beatable which I agree with. However, the thing in question is is not whether he's beatable or not but rather how he affects the metagame/community as a whole and in my opinion pretty negatively. Do you remember when we had to ban certain stages from competitive play mostly because of MK being much better than other characters on them ala Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, etc? (Ice Climber loved these stages geting banned btw)? Do you remember the ledge grab limit and scrooging rules that came in place because of MK? I mean other characters could also plank and scrooge but no one was better than it than MK. On top of MK being >50% of top 8 of almost any tourney placing/PR. I'm not sure how it is in your scene. No other character honestly could do that. He was a problem and I would've have liked to see him go from competitive play a long time ago along with Ice Climbers.

He has a much easier time killing, and that's what matters, not raw kill power. I feel like you are theorycrafting a lot of this and have never seen in person how dominant MK was. Characters become dominant for a reason, its not just hype that he was extremely good. Look at the bigger picture not just the character. Regionals and Nationals were usually 50% or more MKs in top 8. Every Region PR had 50% or more MKs on there. Why did this happen even though MK was everyone's most practiced matchup and theoretically everyone should know how to beat MK? MK slayers were extremely rare. This never happened in Melee even with Fox and Falco. It was never about him being unbeatable. Any character can be beatable because they are controlled by human players. It's just that there was no reason to play anyone else besides MK, a character that a mediocre player can beat top players of other characters with. A lot of characters never went fully explored in Brawl and probably never will. But I guess this argument is pointless, competitive Brawl is dead. EDIT: Euklyd, were you talking about this? http://imgur.com/k90QYbD

People whine for good reason. That reason is that MK is broken. This is pretty much fact at this point. Ask any Brawl player, even ones that mained MK, "Is MK broken?" and they will almost always say yes. A character that has the options of 10 characters in one combined cannot simply be resolved by learning the matchup. I remember when Snake was #2 for the first year and he eventually dropped down to #6 or #7 spot where he is right now because a lot of people learned the matchup. That never happened with MK. Camp? Metaknight da Bess Rushdown? Metaknight da Bess Gimp? Metaknight da Bess Kill? Metaknight da Bess Recover? Metaknight da Bess Live long? Metaknight not da Bess at this, but he won't get hit Disjoint for frame data? Metaknight da Bess Ice Climber are worse I agree, but at least there was a certain tech requirement you had to meet in order to wobble. They also appeared late in the meta and did not have the influence MK had.

Fow vs ZeRo, this is how Fow's stocks were taken: Game 1, Stock 1: Killed at 180% by a fair close to the ledge G1, S2: Killed at 76% by a gimp (ran into PK Thunder 2, shortened length and teched) G2, S1: Fow SDs G2, S2: Killed at 177% by a fair close to the ledge G3, S1: Killed at 140% by a baited airdodge uair G3, S2: Killed at 140% by a fair close to the ledge So Sheik does have a hard time getting her 50/50 kills on Ness, given his high mobility airdodge and the fact that none of FOW's deaths was the results of a 50/50 (or a grab followup in general). So Ness does at least have that going for him in this matchup. Still really bad matchup for him since he can get gimped so easily and has a really hard time approaching.

Knew it. I am now 90% sure what I said earlier is true. Maybe it wasn't a formal C&D order, but they uncovered information that Nintendo was planning to sue, whether it was explicitly expressed by Nintendo or not (assuming your source is/was credible). The December update looks to have something Brawl related (Brawl Remake?) as implied by the Brawl FD music at the end of the Cloud reveal. Perhaps it could also be related to that, since PM works off of Brawl engine? Ignoring character balance, I think Smash 4 would be a lot cooler if they didn't patch out DACUS and item toss cancelling. Also, rage is kinda dumb.

The worse Melee thing is just my opinion. I doubt my mind would change on this. Umm... MK was definitely not an overstatement. Ice Climbers were worse, at least MK had 10 different ways to kill you. The competitive meta would have been 100x better if both these characters were banned early on. Ice Climber meta wasn't developed for a while so that got overlooked, but by 2010 when everyone wanted to ban MK (and rightfully so) it was too late. 80% of top players either mained him or pocketed him and strongly opposed his ban by boycotting MK banned events. TOs eventually had to cave in because top players stopped going to events. Had Diddy not been nerfed, he would have headed in the same direction. The balance in Smash 4 is just fine right now and while Sheik is running amok, her strength and popularity levels are nowhere near Brawl MK. So MK definitely was not an exaggeration, he was simply broken compared to the rest of the cast. But I guess this has nothing to do with Project M. I'll let it go though, since you're a Sothe fan ;) Relevant:

I have no idea who Sami is but the fact that they were decided not to continue after having all that data for Knuckles, Lyn, and Isaac likely means they were given a C&D order by Nintendo. Why else would they stop development so suddenly, especially having all that data done? Finishing the last version would have been the perfect way to wrap up the project. Also, why are they telling people to contact their lawyer if the reason was as simple as "we want to move on"? So then the question is why did Nintendo suddenly take an interest in issuing a C&D order to the PM team, when they've been doing it for a very long time, even more than a year past Smash 4's intial release? Most likely, one of the additions the PM team was going to add to the latest version (Isaac, Knuckles, Lyn, or Sami whoever that is) is probably going to be one of the DLC characters for Smash 4. Nintendo does not want PM to "have dibs" or put these characters in their game first. This also explains why the PM team is being so tight lipped about this, they likely know this is the reason but can't say why. They don't care much about other fangames like Smash Flash adding chars, but PM is a totally different level of fangame. If I'm wrong, I guess we'll find out this month. I really think Isaac will be the character being added though.

Probably for the best. Not gonna deny the developers were kinda good at stuff. Now they can focus on something that isn't just a worse Melee. I liked the texture and music hacks they did in Brawl. Kinda have a love/hate relationship with it since it helped kill Brawl earlier, but I guess it did give people something to play while MK was raping every other character in Brawl.

Oh hey, BTW guys I'm featured in a crew video. Check around the 1:30 mark for my clip.

Lol. I bear no salt though, those are your thoughts. Funny thoughts. Also, I want more online stuff to happen here but no one ever seems interested or has the time to.

Yeah, its a weird percent where that works. I know some chars also have the aerial mobility to usually want to air dodge instead of DJ. Ness probably best example (lots of mobility during air dodge, but slow double jump). Sheik can still catch this air dodge with a delayed up air or precise vanish read, but it gets a little tougher to kill him. Pro level Ness vs Sheik will usually come down to the Ness either being gimped (which isn't hard) or Ness dying at outrageous percents. Sheik will usually die to rage bthrow or nair. Not always how it goes of course, but usually.

I know some fast dairs beat both options sometimes. Like a Mario will trade hits with Sheik upair and cancel out the rest of the hits.

Let the guy think what he wants lol. His opinion not going to affect Snake's return. That said I don't really want Snake back either.

I have lots of info on ZSS too whenever that happens

A new smasher is born? Yeah nothing quite beats going to an offline tournament with people and grinding there.

Can't hire you, you haven't sworn your allegiance to Nohr (aka your badge needs to be changed to Nohr)

Sure, you still there

Thank you for not allowing multiple votes. I mained Luigi in 64, and disliked Ness the most.