[Some names you expect future Fire Emblem characters to have?]

On 10/26/2023 at 12:15 PM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Definitely Alexander/Alexandria. A lot of historic people called that, and places too. There are girl versions of it. Shortened versions like Alex/Alexia. Kind of a mouthful to say in Japanese. アレクサンデル. That kid isn't going to be able to match the six character limit in Pokemon.

Ooh, good ones. They could compromise a bit on the sound, with something like アレザンダー ("A-re-ZAN-daa"), and it would roll off the tongue a bit better. Or for a girl, アレサンドラ ("A-re-SAN-dora"). It's also crazy that Genealogy gave us an "Alec", and a "Lex", but there's no Alex yet!

[Ranking each game by class: Troubadours / Valkyries]

5 hours ago, Cysx said:

Just to acknowledge it, my counterargument about Micaiah was incorrect ! She can only reach A staves at tier 2.

Jeez, Micaiah really gets no love. Even promoting her to Light Priestess will only lift her Staff rank to B, if she hasn't already hit it. Of course, if you get her to A beforehand, then she can get to SS with two Arms Scrolls. Whether it's worth doing so, or else bringing Rhys, for three charges of a slightly souped-up Physic, is at the player's discretion.

3 hours ago, gnip said:

Maybe if her personal sword had been magical...

"Radiant Dawn" and "Magical Weapons", name a less iconic duo.

[Ranking each game by class: Troubadours / Valkyries]

The real problem with Light magic? It's not light. In fact, it's quite heavy. Want to offset Nosferatu's 8 Weight? You'll need 40 Strength. No Mage is hitting that. And very few of them would be training Armor, to get the Weight-offset skills. Plus, the other spells are all heavier! Measured against Abraxas (13), the only heavier spells are siege spells, Quake Sigma, and Hades Omega.

Generally speaking, I'd advocate trimming a few points of Weight off of every Light magic spell. But there's an even less invasive approach: give Holy Knight Weight-5 as a class skill (in place of Terrain Resistance). That way, they could use Nosferatu with no Attack Speed penalty, while suffering minimally with heavier ones. Plus, there's more reason to use the class over Dark Knight now. The Weight offset would apply to Reason spells and magical weapons, too, so there are niche cases where a unit could double in Holy Knight, but not in Dark Knight.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

And if we're talking about adding more white magic, it'd be really cool if Thani was in the game. They let anyone use rapiers, why not toss the ball of armour extinction on a few characters?

Could be fun - Thani is probably my favorite Rapier-type weapon in the series. We'd definitely want to keep access limited, though - maybe to a few units you wouldn't normally run in magical classes, like Catherine or Raphael? Give those weird "off-builds" a smidge more reason to exist.

 

2 hours ago, lenticular said:

Hypothetically, what if we added a new spell that everyone learns at that level instead that served as a slightly worse analogue for Fire. Let's say Shine: might 2, weight 3, hit 90, uses 8. Obviously this is nothing exciting, but it's usable as a fallback when you run out of Seraphim charges, in the same way that Fire is usable after you run out of Thoron or Bolganone or whatever else.

Not a bad idea. If we're consciously making the spell strictly worse than Fire (and Wind BTW), perhaps we should up the use count even further? To 12, or maybe as high as 16? It would just really suck to get your Noble/Commoner up to D+ Faith, onlyto be rewarded with... 4 wimpy charges. It's the "earlygame Dorothea problem", all over again.

[ARCHER! Lunatic+ Run! Kids or NAH???]

So, the possible Archers among Gen I units are Virion (by default), and Chrom, Robin, Stahl, Ricken, and Tharja (by reclass). Among the Robinsexuals, there's Anna and Yenfay (again, by reclassing). If you count potential Bow Knights (via Mercenary), then add Gregor (by promotion), Cordelia, Donnel, Flavia, and Priam (by reclassing). And the pool expands further, if classes like Warrior and Assassin are counted.

As for the Kids: Noire, Lucina, and Morgan will have Archer access, no matter what. Up to 4 other kids can get Archer, too, depending on your pairing choices. I.e. Chrom!Brady, M-Robin!Yarne, Stahl!Severa, and Ricken!Nah.

So it's up to you, which way you want to play it. Using Kids opens up more options, but it'll also lead to a lengthier playthrough.

[To Become an Elitist [Playlogs FE1-5] [currently playing: Thracia 776]]

21 hours ago, Jotari said:

Enemies will attack Marth in FE1 only for their attacks to be sealed by Falchion.

Huh, I did not know that. I would've assumed that Marth would just not take any damage from those attacks.

8 hours ago, gnip said:

For what it's worth, I also looked up Genealogy pairings when I played through the prologue... two years ago, according to the age of the save file. I assume that the majority of these are the most basic picks, so feel free to suggest alternatives, although I'd appreciate ones that don't go into self-sabotaging territory. (and no, I don't want to do an all-substitutes run as my first Genealogy experience)

I actually hosted a thread on this topic last year. All your proposed pairings are pretty much chalk - either the best possible pairing, or one of them. The "weirdest" would probably be Lex x Briggid, but Lex is a good dad for any kids, because Paragon is a great skill. Laylea and Sharlow aren't necessarily better than the kids they're replacing, but they do net you exclusive items (the Barrier Blade and the Berserk Staff, respectively), so that's pretty cool. Among the listed pairings, Erinys x Claud is a personal favorite of mine, as the Res boost helps both kids in the last couple chapters.

5 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said:

The brave lance belongs to Finn. Fee can't exist because I literally just said to kill Erinys for subs can have the silver if she likes.

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Fee can't directly inherit the Silver Lance, since it's A-rank. In fact, Finn can only acquire it once he promotes to Duke Knight. Otherwise, the only possible recipient is Altenna. Anyway, people are out here giving up their chapter 4/5 Brave Lance and wondering why their Erinys and/or Naoise sucks so much.

8 hours ago, gnip said:

...this guy would've been right there to do the expositioning instead, maybe with a little "if Meißen dead" clause.

21 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

True, but didn't Mycen also explain stuff to Alm at the end of Act I? In which case, he couldn't be playable until that happened. Also, Alm would've probably been more inclined to believe his "grandfather" than "Enemy General McGee".

Oh, and congratulations on surviving Gaiden!

[To Become an Elitist [Playlogs FE1-5] [currently playing: Thracia 776]]

8 hours ago, gnip said:

This map is largely focused on its lower half. There is, of course, a path to loop around and onto the walls, but it seems to works out better to use your own 1-5 range to fire up the walls, warp in some folks, and use the choke point to fend up enemies that may loop around the other way and down the walls.

I'd be disappointed getting to this map, and not hearing this.

8 hours ago, gnip said:

Alm is the second unit to get warped in. Interestingly, Rudolf will pick him as an attacking target (which makes sense given that the other option is Cliff), but then mysteriously not stab him. I would've expected that he wouldn't engage Alm to begin with.

So, Kaga made it possible for a unit to initiate combat, but then fail to attack? I think the only other time I've seen that is in SoV, due to Jedah's power. Kind of impressive that sort of thing was programmed in, actually.

8 hours ago, gnip said:

Don't cry, Alm... Let me clarify your father's actions.

It just occurred to me that Kaga probably made Mycen non-playable, until the very end, so that he could show up to explain the plot. If he existed as a typical "Jagen", then he could die in the very first map. Which, in pre-FE7 design philosophy, meant that he couldn't stick around to do any exposition.

8 hours ago, gnip said:

Prince Albyne. I am General Massena, the captain of the king's guards. We have heard our late King's final words and assembled here."

This guy existed in the original?

And he had hair?!?

8 hours ago, gnip said:

After this, Alm finds a door that looks important enough. Also blue, as opposed to all the green and brown maps, so you know it's something special.

For some reason, I had assumed that "Alm's Trial" was added in the remakes. No idea why. I should give the original an honest go at some point.

8 hours ago, gnip said:

Anyway, it isn't fighty time yet, but here's the HP levels on Celica's party. Nobody critically injured, but noticable damage overall.

 

Again - really cool and impressive, to see that programmed into an NES game! Curious that Celica, Genny, and - of all people - Atlas, are immune.

[Ranking each game by class: Troubadours / Valkyries]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Making up a lineup for Hunting by Daybreak is an unfortunate contradiction in terms (well, most of everything above you're going to want for the previous chapter too, but would you bring Swordbreaker for Edelgard? I think that's more an axe and lance heavy  map).

It depends on how you play chapter 12. You could play "the normal way", setting all your units up for an epic defense map against overwhelming odds. Or you could play "the fun way", getting a turn 1 kill on Edelgard to head face-first into the post-skip. In that design, assuming Sylvain plays no part in the quick clear (outside of maybe a Reposition), then you can just set him up for chapter 13.

12 minutes ago, Cysx said:

Oh, I meant he's worse compared to PoR.

Ah, that makes more sense. Yeah, I would agree.

14 minutes ago, Cysx said:

Well he does fall off pretty hard, and his combat is really not that good (he deals considerably more damage but tends to get doubled to death if they can counter, you also generally can't expose him at all).

So I agree Rhys's speed is bad, but Mist's is only 1 point better. She has the better growth rates, but after 10 levels each, her advantage will be... 2.5 points. Might save her getting doubled once or twice, but they're both super-frail to physical enemies. Rhys, at least, fares better against magical enemies.

17 minutes ago, Cysx said:

Speaking of capping, Rhys can be Bexped to great success since he caps two stats early, but, his third tier speed cap(of 30, tied for lowest non-laguz in the game I believe) robs this of all meaning. Bringing Mist to the tower is debatable, Rhys is... usually not even considered, afaik.

I think there's a slim case for Rhys, if you want to use the Matrona staff. The only other potential users are Laura, Oliver, and Micaiah. Of this bunch, Rhys has the most realistic path to SS Staves, without requiring an Arms Scroll. Sephiran can use it, granted, but only in the final final map.

Worth bringing Rhys for it? Probably not, no. But it is a niche, whereas Mist comes across as "Elincia, but worse".

24 minutes ago, Cysx said:

FE4 is always really tricky because the commonly considered way of playing it now is min maxing the heck out of it it seems. Which, I guess I simply have no real experience with first off, but in general I do question the idea of passing the best non legendary sword in the game to units who likely won't use it on the field, just so they can get levels and money they may or may not be able to put to good use, and then sell it back. Outside of ranks that is.

To be clear, I was not advocating "have Lachesis pass Ayra's Brave Sword down to Nanna". That would mean missing it for chapter 6. Seliph is probably the best recipient, but the Sword Twins and Diarmuid can make good use of it. In fact, it might not have 50 kills by the timeskip.I was moreso advocating "have the Troubadour buy the Brave Sword when they need to face higher-level Arena opponents".

...Wait, I might've misread your use of the word "passing". In which case, I was advocating for exactly what you're not keen on. Hahaha. Alternatively, you could have them buy a 50-kill Steel Sword or (for Nanna) Silver Sword, for a good shot at beating tough Arena foes. But not "Brave Sword" levels.

33 minutes ago, Cysx said:

Semantics aside, I just need to replay the game, please don't pay too much attention to what I say about it.

Nah, it's fine! Yeah, I was thinking that strat more with rankings in mind. Wherein, I really want to get as many units as possible to level 30. If you're playing casually,or just going for turncount, then clearing the Arena with your Troubadours might not matter so much.

[Ranking each game by class: Troubadours / Valkyries]

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Thinking on it, what could have been done to make Holy Knight better? Okay, white magic uses x2 is the obvious choice, but that sort of trips over Bishop and Gremory's niche. Assuming the idea of Holy Knight is to be "offensive white magic" in a game with very little white magic. Maybe it could have got the OG Slayer skill as its mastery that lets all its attacks (or even just it's magic/white magic) deal effective damage to beast units. That would be pretty cool, though might eliminate Seraphim's unique use, which is the main reason to use it as is.

So, currently, Dark Knight gives +2 Magic, whereas Holy Knight gives +1. Why not swap 'em? We can also swap another stat buff, say HP (Dark Knight has +1, Holy Knight has +2) to compensate.

This way, Holy Knight actually has a tiny advantage, dealing more damage with magical combat arts, and potentially having more range with Physic, Warp, and Rescue. However, Dark Knight will steal deal more damage with Black and Dark spells, while being more physically bulky. This way, there's a reason to choose either one. 

One more thing: yes, Holy Knight has a lower Magic base. This model is assuming that your level 30 unit has already reached 17 Magic naturally. The only unit you'd consider in Holy Knight, who might not achieve this, is Bernadetta.

1 hour ago, Cysx said:

FE4 : Tentative C B
Edit : Okay so hum, I completely forgot about Ethlyn somehow. So yeah, bumping this from C to B, Ethlyn is undeniably really useful in early Gen 1.
While Canto and higher movement obviously sound amazing at first, the class is stuck with the lowest staff rank unless Claude is Nanna's dad (which is usually not the best choice for reasons). It's almost more functional as a physical class (at least for Nanna, far as I'm aware Jane is a staffbot through and through), especially since Paladin promo bonuses are pretty good, but the problem is that both her and Jane join pretty underlevelled.

TBH, anyone can have good combat with a 50-kill Brave Sword. At the very least, it can get Jeanne most of the way through the Arena. It's very plausible to get either her or Nanna to promotion by chapter 9, since Staff EXP is quite generous in this game - the Mend Staff alone grants 10 full levels-up, without requiring a repair!

1 hour ago, Cysx said:

FE10 : B
Again this is a bit difficult. If she could early promote, she'd very likely be A, but here again she has an embryon phase which is frustrating to go through, though it's also not nearly as bad. Rhys, her direct competitor, is also quite a bit worse. Ultimately she's hurt by Physic staves being plentifully available, meaning healers can hang back safely... and Micaiah existing in the tower.

Interesting - I actually find Rhys to be the better of the two. He joins with a higher staff rank (A, rather than B), has ten more points of Magic at base (and 8 more Res), and can actually attack on the magical side of the spectrum. Mist's only clear advantage is the extra mobility - 1 point at base, 3 points (w. Canto) once she promotes. A clear advantage, sure, but I always count Mist as the "second-string healer". Maybe I'm underestimating her?

 

9 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Plus a ~64% chance that his crest adds 5 or 10 damage if my mental probability math is on point. Thaaaat's if you can hit him twice though. I don't know how many people noticed but Swift Strikes lacks a hit bonus like every other brave combat art. It really depends on the accuracy of your weapon choice. I also would champion the bow and gauntlet scenarios not just for the greater hit rates on the weapons but the general lack of Bow and Fistbreaker on enemies. I don't have a working memory of which class has which breaker, only that there are disproportionately more swordbreakers compared to anything else, and flying monsters have +30 avoid to all three of the weapon triangle.

Pallardo's actually weaker than the thieves, until he reappears with Avoid +10 and a speed ring to hit 57 Avoid. But if we looked instead at the regular thieves, we're still talking 48 Avoid with an 80 Hit lance along with 12 Dex and 12 Hit from Lance Prowess 4. 56 displayed hit, and you gotta land both. Though this is a textbook map to find room for Swordbreaker and get further into 2RN's good graces.

Yeah, I'm assuming the player is using Swordbreaker - at least for this chapter. It comes free, and it's clearly useful in a Sword-heavy map. My lineup would probably be "Swordbreaker, Str +2, Death Blow, Lance Prowess Lv. 4, {Dex +4? Hit +20? Auth Lv. 3?}"

As for the hit rates, that's a fair point. This is an area where choice of battalion can definitely help. I originally suggested Gautier Knights (since that comes from Sylvain's paralogue), but it's not necessarily the best choice. Like, consider Kingdom Brave Lance Co. That one can be bought as early as chapter 8, and it only requires C-rank Authority. It only offers +4 physical attack, but it makes up for it with +20 Hit rate. Or Kingdom Wyvern Co, granting +5 physical attack and +15 Hit. Victor Private Military (C, +6, +15), Leicester Mercenaries (B, +7, +20), and Gloucester Knights (B, +6, +15) could all be worth your consideration, if you have the right people in your army for their respective paralogues.

And, if all else fails... just give him an Accuracy Ring.

[Ranking each game by class: Troubadours / Valkyries]

43 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

To be fair, I don't think it's completely unreasonable for Sylvain to skip Brigand (maybe you just want Sylvain to spend all that time in Cavalier, it is quite a bit a better-performing class so if a player expects to have trouble with Intermediate-tier maps). And I think it's quite reasonable to skip Str+2; it's a tough call between that and Reposition for him IMO.

By the by, if we cut out Str +2 and Death Blow, then the per-hit Attack power falls to 47. That falls just short of one-rounding Pallardo (48 HP, 24 Prt), and likewise falls just shy of many other enemies there (Assassins, Grapplers, Snipers). But as you mentioned, there are a lot of other options - support partners, his personal skill, stronger weapons, and let's throw in Annette's Rally Strength. Soldier vs. Fighter is the tossup - personally, I'll often double-dip in Beginner classes, as they're relatively quick to master. IMO Death Blow is a no-brainer on any "multi-strike combat art" build, but Cavalier is more useful in the moment (and gives free Riding), while Archer mastery could be desirable to those who fear his Hit rate will falter.

52 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

While on the subject of these two methods of having allies power up Sylvain, it's worth mentioning that Felix/Ingrid/[random female ally] will be able to provide this support more easily — wait for it — if they have Canto! Canto's good.

Come to think of, a "no Canto classes" playthrough could make something of a challenge run. Maybe barring the Fetter, too. At least, when I'm not exulting about being able to avoid a Stairs movement penalty without dismounting. You can't put a price on that!

[Ranking each game by class: Troubadours / Valkyries]

43 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Sylvain, like any other unit, is certainly capable of falling off if he gets poor stat gains. So I'm not disbelieving your experience, to be clear.

Actually, let's imagine a 0% growths Sylvain. How does he do?

Paladin Strength Base (17) +

Paladin Strength Mod (2) +

Strength+2 Skill (2) +

Lancefaire (5) +

Death Blow (6) +

Lv. 5 Gautier Knights (7) +

Swift Strikes (2) +

Silver Lance+ (14)

= 55 Attack Power, striking twice.

That's cleanly one-rounding chapter 13's Pallardo, along with essentially any generic on that same map. He can one-round basically any non-Armored, non-Monster enemy from that point onward. Even if he gets screwed on his growths, Swift Strikes renders Sylvain a player-phase nuke, who can then Canto away to safety.

Of course, if you don't train his Lance rank up to A, or have him master Brigand, or give him a strong battalion, then sure he can turn out disappointing. But then, that's the player's own mistakes, not a consequence of bad RNG.

[Leak that just may mean FE8 is coming to GBA emulator]

It'd be a very plausible addition, and a welcome one. The GBA NSO offerings are still pretty lean. That said, they may hold off on sharing it, given how recently FE7 (and FE6, for Japanese players) was added.

[Ranking each game by class: Troubadours / Valkyries]

49 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, you're forgetting another piece of the puzzle here; 3H has combat arts for moving other units around.

Repositionals are another tool that make mounted units better. When Fortress Knight Raphael uses Smite, he has to end his turn on the same space that he used it. But when Great Knight Raphael uses Smite, he can Canto his remaining movement to wherever he wants to end up. Hell, mounted classes with Draw Back or Swap can use the art to effectively move one space further. And it should go without saying that fliers are the best Reposition users - they can get grounded allies across untraversible terrain.

55 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Almost all of the armors in the GBA games ended up with at least 15 constitution after promotion, which almost no mounted unit can pick up when they started promoting as well (special mention to Barth the Unrescuable and his 18 constitution!).

Pretty much everyone agrees that GBA Armors were bad, with the exceptions of Oswin and Duessel (if you're counting him). The fact that they're the least mobile class type, while also being the hardest to Rescue-carry, playing into that. In that light, a 3H Valkyrie, who can "Draw Back" my Fortress Knight, is doing more for me than a GBA Valkyrie who can't pick up my General.

59 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Many of those other games didn't have terrain that slows down cavalry units and ONLY cavalry units. The only one I can think of was Path of Radiance... but unlike in 3H, it was only in one map.

I'm genuinely drawing a blank. What terrain was that?

[Ranking each game by class: Troubadours / Valkyries]

16 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Get her to 10 and promote her, she's the only staff user until Elincia who doesn't have garbage move

And Tormod gets forgetten again...

17 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

3. Genealogy: Horse with staves very good. They don't get all staves but they get enough. Nanna can even have pretty good combat (and always has Charm). I might be underrating them a bit even?

Re: Staves, they only get Heal, Mend, and Return, which is a knock against them relative to... any other Staff users. Nanna can actually get B-rank Staves (Physic, Recover, all status staves) with Claud as her daddy, so that's fun. But as you said, those three are enough. Mend usually heals to full, even with a lacking Magic stat, and having Return on a mobile unit is super-useful for a "Return-Warp Volley" strategy. I think their biggest credit, though, is simply the fact that Ethlyn exists before Edain.

26 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Meanwhile there's at least one enemy type we know holy knights will kill at range which swordmasters don't: armour knights. They're clearly superior ranged combatants as such.

Eh... Swordmasters with an at-least tolerable Magic stat should be one-rounding Armor Knights with the Levin Sword. And in its forged form, it goes up to 3-range, making it a wash with a 6-move dismounted Holy Knight. Hell, running units like Dorothea, Manuela, or Lysithea as Swordmasters could be fun this way. Although they'd do the same job better in Assassin.

Come to think of it: "Swordmaster is to Assassin, as Holy Knight is to Dark Knight" feels kind of apt. In either case, the former has certain niches in which you might prefer them - but the latter is largely better. Although, I would say the second pair is broadly superior to the first, even though they're hard to compare, since they're performing very different functions for you.

[Ranking each game by class: Troubadours / Valkyries]

Ah, the mounted healers. Why don't Troubadours play music? And why don't Valkyries fly? I don't know, but as classes go, this one has had a rather spotty presence. They make no appearances in the Archanea and Valentia games, while Tellius players can go both games without ever noticing the class! That said, in the games where they do exist, how would I rank them? From worst to best:

Spoiler

9. Radiant Dawn. Mist is your only possible Valkyrie in the game. She promotes with the exclusive Holy Crown, so while it's a non-competitive item, it also doesn't come until Part IV. Staff EXP is very stingey in Tellius, and while she can use Swords from the start, her low Strength makes this an uphill battle, even with the Florete. It can be nice having a Staffbot with Canto, and training her Sword rank to use Alondite is a fun stunt. But it's just a stunt - before promotion and after, she's mediocre at best.

8. Path of Radiance. I debated between the two games, but ultimately, decided that Mist was better in this game. She has a worse start, sure, with a pitiful 5 move and no Sword access. But using the Master Seal lets her promote earlier, even if staff-leveling is a slog. Gaining a mount is crucial in a game where cavalry is king, while the Sonic Sword is actually a solid option for her combat. Plus, she has an exclusive role in helping Ike against the Black Knight. Still not great, but she has her uses.

7. Sacred Stones. Definitely the worst GBA incarnation of these classes. L'Arachel comes halfway through the game, at a pitiful level 3, with a paltry D-rank Staves. Not only that, but Troubadour has 6 move - Valyrie and Mage Knight, 7 - which is 1 less than the Elibe games. Nonetheless, she has her uses - Mending, spamming the Torch Staff, or merely Rescue-carrying. As for "Valkyrie Natasha", the lack of anti-monster effectiveness makes this the inferior choice.

6. Awakening. Maribelle has her uses, and I could see a case to reclass Lissa to Troubadour. Doesn't get the best skills, although I guess Demoiselle could aid male allies. There's no need to use one, but they can contribute.

5. Three Houses. A very peculiar case - there's no Troubadour, while Valkyrie is a DLC-only class. That said, it's a very good one. It's the only class with an innate Magic range-boosting skill, and it provides the highest Magic modifier of any mounted class. Uncanny Blow is one of the best mastery skills in the game, too. Just a solid pick for any magical girl - either en-route to Dark Knight, or as an endgame class in its own right. As for Holy Knight, I would favor Dark Knight over it, 8 out of 10 times. But there's the 1 time where a unit has an easier time growing in Faith than in Reason, and the 1 time that they actively want White Tomefaire (say, Seraphim users).

4. FE7. Ah, Priscilla, whatever are we going to do with you? GBAFE is quite stingey with EXP from staff use, so it can take close to half the game to even reach level 10, unpromoted. Plus, she's useless under a Magic Seal! That said, she joins with solid stats and C-rank Staves, making her an invaluable resource. Not only that, but her mount and high Aid makes her a premier Rescue-carry support unit. Not a "must-use" unit, but a very solid choice.

3. FE6. This time, we have two units in this category. There's Clarine, who joins essentially in the same chapter as Priscilla... at level 1, with D-rank Staves and 2 Magic. She's a grower, not a shower. Then there's Cecilia, a Valkyrie who joins with... 2 move? Great idea, introducing her in the desert. Her stats are nothing special, and C-rank Staves is pretty meh, but A-rank Anima is incredible at this point. And either of them can provide valuable Rescue-carry support. Using at least one horseback healer is generally a great choice.

2. Fates. If I were counting Jakob, Felicia, and Flora, then I would probably put this class in first place. But I honestly don't feel that they should count, since they start without a horse, and can't directly promote into one. But even without, it's a very good class here, particularly in Conquest. Elise is an awesome support unit, and Strategist's Inspiration can synergize with her personal skill. Dwyer deserves credit for being among the first obtainable kids, if you choose F!Corrin. As for Forrest, while I find him "more style than substance", he's definitely a fun project.

1. Genealogy. By now, we're used to a Troubadour coming along to supplement your first healer. But what if your Troubadour... were your first Healer? That's the question that Ethlyn answers, and she does so phenomenally. In a game with no Vulneraries, she'll be vital for keeping your army healthy. Plus, she can use the Silver Sword to make inroads in the Arena. Even though she leaves early, I think she has a case for "3rd-best-unit in Gen I". As for the second Gen, Nanna (or Jeanne) play a vital role in keeping Leif and Finn alive, while also being the best user of the Return staff. The Brave Sword, or Miracle Sword, can help in the Arena, while Charisma is an awesome boon from Nanna in particular. And before I forget - Super-Canto! This is, simply put, a must-use class.

Those are my thoughts; I welcome any feedback!

[What's the class or type of unit that you never NOT use?]

I pretty much always use at least one Cavalier, and at least one Mage. Usually multiples of each.

[Ranking each game by class: Lords]

4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Seizing just feels impossible to score. I'm definitely curious how much you weight it (and I mean this non-judgementally to be clear, I'm not trying to use this as a gotcha), e.g. if you consider a hacked version of Binding Blade where anyone can seize (but the game is otherwise unchanged, i.e. Roy is still force-deployed and story-promoted), how much better would Hacked Roy's stats have to be than Current Roy's in order for him to be equally valuable in both versions of the game, in your estimation?

Ooh, fun thought experiment. So, in FE6, Roy joins with the following stats:

Spoiler

HP: 18

Str: 5

Skl: 5

Spd: 7

Lck: 7

Def: 5

Res: 0

Con: 6

Mov: 5

As a result, on Normal Mode, he deals 9 damage (3HKO) to generic enemy Fighters using the Rapier, and takes 7 damage (3HKO) from their Iron Axes. A single point of Str and Spd would make Roy one-round them. However, I acrually think that would make Roy too powerful. Conversely, an extra point in each of Def and HP will take him into getting 4HKO'd, which seems reasonable. One more thing: a little more Con would make heavier Swords more forgiving, without meaningfully changing who can Rescue-Carry him. So, let's do the following buffs:

Spoiler

HP: 18 + 1 = 19

Str: 5 + 2 = 7

Skl: 5 + 2 = 7

Spd: 7 + 0 = 7

Lck: 7 + 0 = 7

Def: 5 + 1 = 6

Res: 0 + 2 = 2

Con: 6 + 2 = 8

Mov: 5 + 0 = 5

There - I think that 10 points, distributed this way, would make a not-the-only-Seizer Roy about equivalent in value to "vanilla Roy". I evalyated based on NM, since that's the one I know best (and the one with more consistent enemy stats), but such a boost would obviously improve his HM performance as well. This is all very "touchy-feely", and I acknowledge that playing the game with said changes applied might cause me to "tweak" the dial a bit.

4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

This is easiest to illustrate with a thought experiment: what if we made Roy untargetable by Rescue (as well as repositioning staves such as Warp)? What if we lowered his move? Both of these changes make Roy an unquestionably worse unit: you would never trade the Roy we have for this new one, given a choice. But they also make him a better candidate for the boots.

Well, this is another question of one's point of view. Is an "unrescuable" Roy a substantially worse unit than vanilla Roy? Or, is it the "Rescuers", who lose some of their functionality, all becoming slightly worse? I think there's a case to be made either way. Anyway, I do agree that such a change would make Roy a better Boots candidate.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, "good candidate for stat booster" is really saying "this character/class is lacking in key stats", which is actually a bad thing.

Reflecting on it, I think the Boots ought to be considered separately from all other stat boosters, since they function so differently. The other stat boosters affect how a unit does in combat, whereas the Boots affect how a unit gets to Combat (or the point of Dancing, or Seizing, or Rescuing, or Rallying). There's a reason that IS dropped "buy infinite Boots" after FE6, whereas "buy unlimited Boosters" was retained.

Anyway, you have a point, yes, that of course the unit who starts with "X + 2" in a given stat, is better than the one who starts with "X" in the stat, and needs the Booster to get to "X + 2". But as @gnip said, it's not always a unit who is "bad" in a certain stat who uses the Booster best. If I have a unit who's 4 damage away from one-rounding every foe on the next Rout map with a Hand Axe, then they're probably the best candidate for an Energy Drop - even if they currently have the highest Strength of any of my units. On the opposite end, if my 20-HP Dancer takes 30 damage from the Ballista, then neither a Seraph Robe nor a Dracoshield is going to save them. It's possible to be so far lacking that a few extra points makes no appreciable difference.

[Some names you expect future Fire Emblem characters to have?]

We've alreasy got a Matthew, a Mark, and a Luke, so... let's say John? Just a very common name that hasn't come up. We've got Jean, but he's not the same.

Likewise, while Maria has been there since the first game, we've never had a Mary. Well, unless you count Ward's sister, who I just learned about today.

[hiya papaya]

Hola, canola!

[Ranking each game by class: Lords]

8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The issue I have with seizing in this conversation is that I can only really see two logical positions:

So, if I'm rating units within the context of FE6, I would broadly side with position 2. As you say, Seizing is essential. I do think there's some wight to give it, say in deciding stat boosters - Roy is a good candidate for defensive boosters and the Boots, because he Seizes, but also because his death is a "Game Over" condition.

However, in this thread, we're specifically ranking the classes between their apppearances in various games. In that light, I'm ranking "Lords who always Seize" against "Lords who sometimes Seize" against "Lords who never Seize". In that light, I feel compelled to acknowledge that the first is contributing something more than the second, who is contributing more than the third, in at least this one axis. Likewise, visiting Villages is usually to the player's benefit; so, in a game (SD) where the ability to Visit is concentrated into one unit, that unit (Marth) will have an advantage over Lords who don't uniquely possess this power.

At least, that's the logic I was going with for my own ratings.

50 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Would changing Rutger to a lord make him any worse if a boss killer though (well at least prepromotion when the crit boost becomes more relevant)? Rutger is a great boss killer because of his stats, not his class. If Myrmidon was super amazing then Fir would be considered an amazing unit too, when by most reckonings she's average at best.

If Rutger were a Lord, he'd probably have worse stats. Particularly, lower Skill and Speed. Of course, if he's still getting Hard Mode bonuses, then his stats will be good in either class.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

To stay on the classes topic, rather than hacking the game so anyone could seize, what if the game were hacked so characters could class change to lord. Would Lord Rutger be better than Myrmidon Rutger if it meant Rutger now had the ability to seize in addition to Roy (and any other characters you choose to make a lord)?

As a practical matter, re: my experiences with randomizers, if I recall, the ability to Seize is character-linked. So, Mage Roy will be able to Seize, whereas Lord Lugh would not. At least, this is based on randomizers that change the class, while leaving the recruitment time intact. If youchange recruitment, so that Lugh takes Roy's slot, then I imagine he'd be able to Seize, regardless of his class.

As for the raw question though, I do think adding the ability to Seize would make a unit better (and, moreso, make the previous Seize-exclusive unit worse). Of course, having a separate "bosskill" and "Seizer" may be most desirable. That way, one can kill the boss on player phase, whereas the other steps on the throne. If a unit has both traits, then they can only do one a turn, notwithstanding Dancer support.

[Ranking each game by class: Lords]

On 10/22/2023 at 11:52 PM, Jotari said:

If asked what the most important piece on a chess board is an amateur will say it's a queen. Someone who thinks themselves a philosopher will say it's the pawns. But most seasoned chess players will unhesitatingly say it's the king. Because that's where victory and defeat truly lie.

...idk it's a genuine set of conversations I had that felt relevant.

The only people saying "Pawns", are the ones trying to get you to "google en passant".

But yeah, broadly agree that the King is the most important, even if the Queen is the most powerful.

On 10/23/2023 at 12:30 AM, Samu_77 said:

There's a difference between important and good, Roy is unquestionably the most important unit in the game but does that make him good when every boss except for like Yahn and Idunn are going to destroy him without effort, which is as necessary as everything else is to getting through the game as getting Roy to that seize point. Importance can't equal good because these are nuanced games to a certain extent every deployment is equally important because we are facing an army that on average outnumbers us like 1-3 or 1-5, so everything counts here. 

I agree that "important" and "good" aren't one-and-the-same, but they do go together to some extent, IMO. One word I thought of, that I think highlights the matter, is "centralizing". A game's best units are often its most centralizing, and vice-versa. Take Radiant Dawn, for example. Most chapters where you have Haar, he's the most important unit, because what you do with him dictates what everyone else can get away with. Likewise with Sothe, whenever he's around. This gets muddled a bit in Part IV, admittedly, but these units still spend a good part of the game being quite "centralizing".

Now, let's graft this onto some other titles. In Shadow Dragon, Marth is vital for clearing the chapter, as well as visiting any desires villages - and adds chest and convoy utility on top of it. Hence why I consider him the most "centralizing" unit. Situationally, you could argue that your Warper or Bosskill are more important than him - and I would say that Lena and Shiida are  better units than Marth - but even their work revolves around "get Marth to the right place, at the right time". Roy, meanwhile, fares worse than Marth in the combat department, and lacks his utility options. Due to all this, he's low on my ladder. Even so, the Seize-centric nature of the game is a centralizing factor upon him. Hence why he goes above the FE7 Lords (IMO) - he's not much worse than them at fighting, but he is much more important than them in his own game experience.

[Correlation between FE and Pokemon players]

21 minutes ago, ARMADS!!! said:

ol, seriously? I've always seen them refered to as "The GBA trilogy of Ace Attorney" or "The GBA FE games",... So it just never really ocurred to me that this wasn't the case, I guess it really shows that I played those games on emulator. Well, we live and learn, thanks for giving me this information before I put myself on a situation where I'd be embarassed for real for not knowing it.

To clarify: the DS was the first console in which the combination of all three series could be played outside of Japan. Fire Emblem was present worldwide on the GBA from FE7 onward, whereas Pokemon was available to an international audience from Red & Blue onward (on the original Game Boy). It was just Ace Attorney that took until the DS years to make it out of Japan.

30 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

The actual "this vinn diagram is a circle" overlap with FE fans is Persona and Trails. And maybe Utawarerumono if those particular fans are especially clued in to gaming.

I'm not a fan of any of those three. I've heard of Trails of Coldsteel, which I assume is starring Coldsteel teh Hedgeheg? Or, are you saying fans of FE, and one of those games you mentioned, are also fans of the other games you mentioned?

[Correlation between FE and Pokemon players]

51 minutes ago, ARMADS!!! said:

Yeah, I think that might be the main reason, for example, I've seen a LOT of Fire Emblem fans that are obssessed with Ace Attorney (so much that I first heard of it here on SF, and now I'm crazy about it too) but I'd have to stretch it a lot to find some relevant connection between the two franchises, probably most people that like both just had a GBA and happened to own both Fire Emblem and Ace Attorney/Pokemon games.

Er, the Ace Attorney games were on DS. They were originally on GBA, but only in Japan. The DS was the first console on which an international audience could play Ace Attorney, Fire Emblem, and Pokemon.

Of course, the DS was a hyper-successful handheld, so that helps. On top of that, players who had previously played Pokemon or Fire Emblem on GBA, would be more likely to stick with those same franchises (and discover new ones) on DS.

[Correlation between FE and Pokemon players]

16 hours ago, Avioncore said:

This is maybe a weird topic but I want to know how many of you DON'T care for Pokemon.

If that's what you're looking for, then the thread title is doing you no favors. FE players who aren't Pokemon fans are likely to say "oh, this isn't the thread for me". Maybe change it to something like "How many of y'all AREN'T into Pokemon?".

Anyway, I'm gonna echo the rest of the lapsed Pokemon fans here. I actually played all the way up to USUM on the 3DS. I was thinking Gen VIII might be my "last hurrah", where I could bring forward all my teams I've built over the years. And then I learned they were cutting Z-moves. And Mega evolutions. And half the Dex. And Pokemon Bank support.

...To no one's surprise, I didn't get Sword/Shield. From what I've heard, I wasn't missing all the much. Scarlet/Violet sounded like they were doing some interesting things, but with all the technical issues, it doesn't look worthwhile. The only Pokemin games I've gotten in the last 5 years have been Picross, Shuffle (free 3DS titles), New Pokemon Snap, and Legends Arceus. The last one, I like as a partial reivention of the series, but it definitely doesn't feel like a "mainline game".

[What if the Mjölnir Tome grants its user the ability to use higher forms of electromagnetism powers? And what if House Freege was able to gain extensive knowledge about the physics of electromagnetism?]

Hm... would it give them control over other people's weapons? If so, they could steal other people's weapons, thus making them nearly undefeatable. The only threat would be the other legendary tomes.

[Ranking each game by class: Lords]

27 minutes ago, Samu_77 said:

The problem with the way I see it is that seizing isn't really contribution in my eyes because it's mandatory, yes it gives him something to do, but he's also force-deployed anyways and because it's something that you need to do to proceed through the game. It's really more of a formality then anything else, but what Jotari also pointed out is that Roy is also bad at Seizing anyways because he is bad at surviving. The problem here is that Roy is not an optional character to use, he's mandatory every single time, and if he wasn't it'd be doubtful that as many people would train him as they do because he only becomes a good, self-sufficient Unit in Endgame (he can do stuff like reliably hit with Swords and provide Fast Fire Supports, but it's not enough to argue him being a "good" unit compared to the myriad of other problems). I don't know if I'd keep Roy at the start of the map each time if I had the option because he does do some things that are valuable, but his status as being the only one who can seize when he's so bad at it makes him worse in my opinion, even if it is contribution.

I find myself half-agreeing, half-disagreeing. I follow your logic, but it leads me to the opposite conclusion. Picture this: every map is "Defeat Boss", but Roy is still a forced deploy. Even if Dieck, or Fir, or Ogier would be better, you're stuck fielding... Roy. In my opinion, that'd be an even worse scenario for him. You're forced to bring him, but he's contributing nothing unique. Why force deploy him, if you don't need him to complete the chapter? It's a wasted slot. At least in the vanilla FE6, he's doing something important.

As for the survivability issue, I generally don't see it on Normal Mode. This is probably a more serious concern on Hard Mode, which I haven't played yet. So I won't speak on it, other than to say that I agree with the "Roy's combat is bad" argument. That includes both in an offensive and defensive sense. And in fact, it was part of my argument about why losing Seize utility would make Roy worse, not better. Even if he's "bad at Seizing", he's the only one who can do it.