[(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.]

42 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Well it is Yune relays the tale of Ashunera, and Yune being half of her should share in at least some of the Goddess of Dawn's memories, which is as reliable a source as we could possibly get. A primordial chaos of water isn't unheard of in mythology. I know of at least one Native American mythos that begins that way, and Egyptian mythology across time and place (as in they couldn't have shared the story) has one example as well. Why Shintoism- yet again distant from the other two places, has Izanami and Izanagi creating the Japanese Islands, if not the entire world, in a vast body of water seemingly devoid of other things.

 

The Zunanma, well according to RD 4-Final-3, they arose from the creatures Ashunera created.

Relevant text from RD:

  Reveal hidden contents

Yune:
“In the very beginning of this world… there was only water, until one day a girl appeared. The girl was very clever, and she forged the first land…then she made trees and flowers, and then she created beings. Fish, beasts and birds… She created so many creatures in one go.”

Tibarn:
“The story of the grand creation? Heard it. Wake me when it’s over.”

Ike:
“The girl was you, right, Yune? Or are you talking about Ashera?”

Yune:
“Both, really…and neither, actually. At first, the girl was excited by her new world, and she thought of little else. Then she started feeling lonely. Everyone, every being she’d created, was different from her. Not a single person that could truly understand her. All alone, she grew sadder and sadder, crying for thousands of years. Then some creatures began to grow and change, becoming more clever and sophisticated. They tried to comfort the girl and eventually grew closer to her… That was the birth of the Zunanma. They were your ancestors…beorc, laguz, everyone.”

However the Tellius Recollection artbooks give a totally contradictory account of the Zunanma, saying that after the goddess appeared in the water and made the land, she created the Zunanma "in her image". Either way, she did not create the Beorc and Laguz, they evolved out of the Zunanma.

Look at the History of Tellius here for the relevant text.

 

And sadly, while I don't know what the Japanese says since we don't have the Extended Script for this Chapter on SF, the English of 4-3 says this:

  Reveal hidden contents

Sanaki:
“I don’t understand. How can you be a goddess and not know? I thought gods were perfect beings who knew everything!”

Yune:
“Gods? Perfect? Where did you get that idea? You haven’t met a lot of gods, have you?”

Sanaki:
“Well, no. But divinity created life from nothing! Surely only perfect beings could do that!”

Yune:
“We did create life, and can do many things that you creatures of flesh can’t. But that doesn’t make us perfect. It just means we can make mistakes on a much grander scale… We’re not what you’ve been taught, and we’re much closer to you skin-wearers than some will admit. But we do make mistakes… Sometimes we make terrible mistakes. Sometimes all it takes is one emotional outburst, and the entire world is drowning underwater!”

The plural here could just be referring to Yune, Ashera, and their prior unified self. Or she could mean that there are other actual gods besides them. RD does have actual Spirits that show up in the final two fights, and Spirits are pretty close to being Gods.

To turn to Shinto again, there is the idea of Kami in the religion- a Kami can mean any lowly spirit, any high deity. It can be the deity Inari, the spirits living in the tree outside your window, they can even lurk in your chef's knife (there are Pokemon based on bronze mirrors and bells gaining lives of their own- something based on Shinto folklore), they're basically everywhere and anywhere. Hence if the lowly Spirits exist in Tellius, and they do, the door is open to higher deities that we would call true deities and not just mortals pretending to be deities actually existing there.

Not to mention that besides powers, and immorality/being harder to kill, what separates a god from a mortal? 

The idea of such a powerful being taking a human form bothers me, you can just imagine how I feel about one originating in it. I mean of all the physical forms, why human? Maybe that's just me. 

I realize that it's consistent with the themes of real religions, but I think some more liberty could have been taken.   

 

"Not to mention that besides powers, and immorality/being harder to kill, what separates a god from a mortal?" 

I think that immortality would be the number one difference. Powers,immorality, and being hard to kill is obtainable by humans and dragons alike. (Gharnef,Anankos) 

I also wish they would have explained the spirit charmer thing more, maybe that's related to your "Spirits" theory? Ashera/Yune don't seem that powerful. (In a blip you out of existence kinda way.) Anankos seems more powerful by comparison, with his dimension bending and time warping. He also seems to be capable of creating life, evidenced with his infinite army tree spawning breath.   

I mean they did supposedly flood the entire planet, but that's nebulous as well. There's no mention of any other place outside of Tellius, how could they know that? They didn't even know Hatari was out there until Radiant Dawn. In Ike's ending, he's stated to disappear and never be seen again, journeying to "lands unknown". Whether this is on and off the continent is unclear, but it's something to think about.

[(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.]

14 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And it is worth adding the conception of a god as always having to be omniscient, omnipotent creator of life applies mostly to the Abrahamic and other Monotheistic traditions like Sikhism and Zoroastrianism.

Japan, a Shinto-Buddhist land by religion and the place where FE gets made, features no such deities. Some are surely more powerful than others, but none are any of those things. The Buddhas didn't create life- they only found the way to overcome suffering (and also get a bunch of miraculous powers). In Shinto- Izanami and Izanagi created Japan, but they weren't the absolute first beings to exist nor do they rule the lives of the living. Other lesser deities do that, and Amaterasu rules in heaven.

Then we even have the deification of human beings, which is relevant given we're talking about elevating dragons to god status in FE. Taira no Masakado was just a warrior-landlord in the Heian period who ended up on the wrong side of the authorities and got killed for it. After his death, he was transformed into a noble rebel of imperial ambitions, and later the guardian deity of Tokyo where he continues to be worshipped to this day. The scholar Michizane has also become a god of scholarship and lightning.

Then we turn to other religions, like Hinduism. Where many groups declare their favored deity infinite, omnipresent and omnipotent- for worshippers of Shiva it is Shiva, for Vishnu/Krishna/Rama lovers, it is he, for SrI/Lakshmi/Kali/Durga worshippers, it's that goddess. And beneath them you get other gods. Rama did befriend Hanuman the ever-beloved monkey god whose awesome powers led to the creation of the literary Sun Wukong of the famed Journey to the West.

But enough on this Religions 101 diatribe.

True, and thanks for the history lesson. 

I only mentioned life creation because Montendra did. The closest thing we have to that is Ashera/Yune. But their tale is pretty nebulous, their origin story seems more like in game lore rather than an actual explanation of how they came to be. The whole Zunanma thing never sat right with me either.

[(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.]

5 minutes ago, Køkø said:

That's long way of saying oversight. What is then? I like you how just ignored my question yet again. 

I'm sorry, how does Gaiden's story not revolve around gods? They've been fighting over whose god is superior for millennia. It's relevant there than in Tellius, the latter not delving into it until the final act of its sequel. Gods are more relevant in Valentia than Tellius.  

Why would Doma and Mila change into human forms without the incentive of preserving their civility? You skipped that one too.  

The wiki is pretty reputable, and since you cite popularity as arguing point...........  

 Additionally, some Manaketes are capable of using their great powers outside their dragon forms, such as Mila blessing the lands of Zofia, only using their dragon forms against particularly dangerous opponents.

It outright states that Echoes Mila is a manakete.

I've never seen anything about dragons being able to change into humans without becoming Manaketes. If you can show where says that, feel free to.  

 

These aren't nitpicks, they're massive holes in the narrative.

I have no idea why I am doing this with you. Is there a reason you skip over my questions? Can you not see or understand them? Or do you just not care? 

"All of Valentia as history sees it, started with just Mila and Duma. They together founded and shaped the land, which allowed and sustained life. That the two founded the very continent and are the sole thing that's keeping it alive implies that prior to their arrival, there was no life." 

Where does it say that there was no life prior to their arrival?

 "And they wouldn't rightfully be called gods (despite not actually being ones) now would it?" 

Naga, the 12 Crusaders,their respective dragons, Anankos, and rest of the Fates dragons are referred to as gods, despite the fact that they're not. (Anankos is ridiculously overpowered lore wise though.) It's been shown that the term "god" in Fire Emblem can simply mean a powerful entity, not a omniscient, omnipotent creator of life.   

 

Good point about the Binding Shield. However Bantu and Tiki are able to use their dragonstones just fine while the Binding Shield isn't intact. That thing was broken for 614 years, and the Valentian siblings are just now starting to degenerate? It doesn't actually say when Doma went mad, but it seems his cult and their practices were established long before that. Echoes states that Judah 147 years old. I doubt that Doma's madness has anything to do with that like the other guy states. Especially considering the degeneration brings on  a ferine mindset, not to mention the fact that Doma supposedly believes in human autonomy. 

In regards to Rudolph's plan, I don't where to begin. I can link you to some other people though. 

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/204443-fire-emblem-echoes-shadows-of-valentia/75403282

The typos were bothering me, but it won't let me edit. 

*it 

*more 

 

[(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.]

27 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

If it was it would've prevented her from going mad. Dragonstones must be extremely specific. 

No they couldn't have. It worked in Tellius because the story is revolved around it. It would be forced to make ACTUAL gods and would make zero sense. God no. Would fuck up the non-Tellius lore too, fuck that noise. Gaiden has an established story and they weren't going to ruin it by trying to explain how they're gods when divine dragon gods exist in Marth's world and make more sense. 

Duma and Mila have free will to change into human forms and so does Tiki. When they're mad (not the emotion like actual mad) that's when dragons lose all control and fully become feral and a dragon. 

Echoes has flaws but some flaws that being nitpicked are downright subjective. 

That's long way of saying oversight. What is then? I like you how just ignored my question yet again. 

I'm sorry, how does Gaiden's story not revolve around gods? They've been fighting over whose god is superior for millennia. It's relevant there than in Tellius, the latter not delving into it until the final act of its sequel. Gods are more relevant in Valentia than Tellius.  

Why would Doma and Mila change into human forms without the incentive of preserving their civility? You skipped that one too.  

The wiki is pretty reputable, and since you cite popularity as arguing point...........  

 Additionally, some Manaketes are capable of using their great powers outside their dragon forms, such as Mila blessing the lands of Zofia, only using their dragon forms against particularly dangerous opponents.

It outright states that Echoes Mila is a manakete.

I've never seen anything about dragons being able to change into humans without becoming Manaketes. If you can show where says that, feel free to.  

 

These aren't nitpicks, they're massive holes in the narrative.

I have no idea why I am doing this with you. Is there a reason you skip over my questions? Can you not see or understand them? Or do you just not care? 

2 minutes ago, Motendra said:

All of Valentia as history sees it, started with just Mila and Duma. They together founded and shaped the land, which allowed and sustained life. That the two founded the very continent and are the sole thing that's keeping it alive implies that prior to their arrival, there was no life. Otherwise, it wouldn't be much of a banishment, and they wouldn't rightfully be called gods (despite not actually being ones) now would it?

As for this, while I'd agree on it being a dragonstone as well, considering that it glows within that very scene, do we know if Duma has one? Regardless, whether or not it is a dragonstone is irrelevant, considering how its not what prevents degeneration. For those that recall FE3/12, dragon-kind would be safe from degeneration, while maintaining their dragon power within stones so long as the Binding shield remained complete (recall Tiki). Gaiden/SoV occurs inbetween Shadow Dragon and MotE, where the Binding Shield remained incomplete until Marth restores it near the end. Gotoh, Xane and Bantu were not subject to degeneration for, despite being in human form, no longer having their dragonstones (well, the former two threw theirs away, that is)

Y'all need to remember that while Valentia is its own continent, it still is part of and falls in line with the Archanean continuity for being directly within the same world and should be looked at as such.

Also, I've heard the flack about Rudolf's plan many times, but I don't understand exactly what is wrong with it other than peeps pointing out all the casualties and risks involved with it and basically not having a liking to destiny plots? 

"All of Valentia as history sees it, started with just Mila and Duma. They together founded and shaped the land, which allowed and sustained life. That the two founded the very continent and are the sole thing that's keeping it alive implies that prior to their arrival, there was no life." 

Where does it say that there was no life prior to their arrival?

 "And they wouldn't rightfully be called gods (despite not actually being ones) now would it?" 

Naga, the 12 Crusaders,their respective dragons, Anankos, and rest of the Fates dragons are referred to as gods, despite the fact that they're not. (Anankos is ridiculously overpowered lore wise though.) It's been shown that the term "god" in Fire Emblem can simply mean a powerful entity, not a omniscient, omnipotent creator of life.   

 

Good point about the Binding Shield. However Bantu and Tiki are able to use their dragonstones just fine while the Binding Shield isn't intact. That thing was broken for 614 years, and the Valentian siblings are just now starting to degenerate? It doesn't actually say when Doma went mad, but it seems his cult and their practices were established long before that. Echoes states that Judah 147 years old. I doubt that Doma's madness has anything to do with that like the other guy states. Especially considering the degeneration brings on  a ferine mindset, not to mention the fact that Doma supposedly believes in human autonomy. 

In regards to Rudolph's plan, I don't where to begin. I can link you to some other people though. 

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/204443-fire-emblem-echoes-shadows-of-valentia/75403282

[(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.]

2 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

I think it's what gives her power, it doesn't seem to be a dragonstone.

The majority would find them being dragons is better than trying to force actual gods into SOV. Lmao no thank you. 

Then why would Naga let him SPECIFICALLY rule over humans? That's destructive asf.

You've skipped several of my points, unsurprisingly. Look, I get that you like this game. I do as well. But acting like the flaws in this game don't exist is stupid. As much as I like FE4, I can admit that Manfroy's decision not to kill Julia was incredibly stupid and out of character.  

"I think it's what gives her power."

Orb like object that's used by a dragon in human form to channel its power? It's almost as if it's a dragonstone or something. It helps my assumption that it looks exactly like one as well. 

  

 

So hypothetically speaking, let's say it's not one. In a game that puts some effort into fleshing out its world, do you think they should have explained exactly what it is, so there's no confusion? 

There are overwhelmingly popular things that critical minds can see as vapid or flawed. I personally haven't seen this majority you're speaking of, but at the end of the day it's subjective. Most people didn't even know what the hell Gaiden was until this game came out. How could they compare? IS made gods work in Tellius, you don't think they could have did the same for Valentia?

In regards to Naga, for the same reason she let Doma/Mila do it. What exactly are you asking......?  

You can't admit that using Naga to retcon contradicts her actions in Jugdral. You can't admit that Doma's actions contradict his philosophy. You can't explain why Doma and Mila took human forms. You can't explain what's in Mila's hand. And you probably think Rudolph's plan was good too. 

 

[(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.]

1 hour ago, Peaceful_User said:

-I see! I just don't agree on that viewpoint.

That was back in Gaiden where Duma had no actual dialogue. Even then when you defeat him it showed he wasn't like Grima with his only dialogue in the OG Gaiden.

Duma did it because he wanted to MAKE humans strong and he cared about them clearly so giving them a strict teaching was good for him. Plus he couldn't go back to the dragon tribe he was banished. 

You missed the lore, dragons can change forms but only dragonstones can prevent madness. Mila truly didn't have a dragonstone and neither did Duma.

Who cares? It makes them and the story way better. You're acting like Naga dismissed them. Naga gave them a falchion (one of the two. The other going to Archanea) so they can be prepared for the day they go mad. Also you said it already. Loptyr hates humans and is evil. Duma and Mila are good dragon-people and care about humanity. 

It isn't explained, but considering humans were doing fine before either of them showed up, that was unnecessary. When I said fuck off, I meant stay out of human affairs, not go back. If he wanted humans to be independent, a religion dedicated to him should the last thing he'd want. Yet he allows it for an apparent 3000 years. 

 Dragons are only in human form because of the fear of degenerating. They're shown to be very prideful species, many seeing humans as nothing more than insects. Here's a quote from Seliph.  

“I understand now... All my life, I've heard tales of how the dragonkin feared becoming entangled in the sorry affairs of mankind. But you were different... You guided us where your kin never would.  

Human-friendly dragons are a rarity. 

 

What's that red thing in Mila's hand? Are you saying Naga allowed them to rule over humans without dragonstones,knowing they'd up like Loptyr? (Since you think that's what the degeneracy causes, despite evidence contrary) Giving them a sword to be used after all the death and bloodshed was a better option than just preventing it from the beginning? They should be consistent. If Naga's cold enough to not care about that, she shouldn't have cared about Loptyr.  

Loptyr actually didn't degenerate. He sealed his power in human host, rather than a dragonstone. He's more along the lines of Medeus, who also sealed his power and also hates humanity.

And you thinking that the retcon is better is your opinion, and that's okay. I know people who disagree. 

[(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.]

27 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

Duma was mad in that time you know that right? Also Alm wants humanity so stand strong and that's all what Duma wanted. The shit that happens in Echoes was out of Duma's control. Mila occasionally pops up here and there voice wise but she doesn't have much control either.

I'm going against what I said about not posting page after page, but I have to ask this.  

If that's want Doma wanted, why didn't he just fuck off? Rather than going through all that convolution? Sealing Mila wasn't even necessary, things were fine before him his followers got there. 

His actions during his madness mimic those of Loptyr, the latter doing it out of hatred for humanity rather than insanity. The actions of the other dragons indicate the degeneracy leads to ferine primordiality , not establishing cults who do fucked up shit for no reason.  

Echoes depicts them both with human forms. Isn't the entire point of that to prevent madness? What happened?  

Them being dragons is a retcon anyway. Why would Naga march all the way to Jugdral to stop Loptyr from ruling over humans while allowing Doma and Mila to rule in the much closer Valentia? 

 

[Best and Worst Lords.]

Holmes is best lord. 

Why do I feel like I've seen this a million times?

Best means different things to different people. Ike is the only lord in the series with any character development, so there's that. (Honorable mention to Leif) Some people don't care about this, and go with their favorite lord instead. Big deal. 

 

  

 

 

 

 

[I translated the opening of FE4 with Gizoogle...]

This is beautiful. Someone needs to do this for the whole game and insert it.

[(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.]

12 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I think the problem with Alm being secret royalty is that it casts doubt on everything Alm achieves. Is Alm amazing because he works hard, or does being a royal just make you naturally better than others? Is he a child of destiny because he has a special aptitude, or does he have a special aptitude because he's a child of destiny? Alm really should not have been a royal if they wanted to tell a "the circumstances of your birth don't matter" story.

As Dark Holy Elf said, the commoners in the army finding success is also underminded by being close friends and subordinates with the emperor of the continent. Alm and Celica (allegedly) are the people who lead the armies and save the world, two royals.

While there is no official statement that Revelation is canon, it makes the most sense. Heroes and Smash depict Corrin with the Omega Yato (which is the strongest, most complete form), and it's only Revelation that gets the complete story where you fight the real enemy. Conquest and Birthright deliberately avoids letting you know the truth (thanks Azura). You're encouraged by the game itself to not play Revelation first because the first two routes are the flawed ones and Revelation is the "now do it right" path.

I agree that Berkut is the Duma analogue, but it puts the sybolism of Alm and Celica's relationship in a strange place. Why is Alm, Mr. Complete Package, paired with Celica who is a flawed half? Wouldn't Berkut be the other half to Celica? Why does Alm need Celica at all? The theme of the game is they need to compromise and find a middle ground between two extreme ideals, but Celica is all wrong and Alm doesnt need to compromise. Why are they bound by fate again?

"I think the problem with Alm being secret royalty is that it casts doubt on everything Alm achieves. Is Alm amazing because he works hard, or does being a royal just make you naturally better than others? Is he a child of destiny because he has a special aptitude, or does he have a special aptitude because he's a child of destiny? Alm really should not have been a royal if they wanted to tell a "the circumstances of your birth don't matter" story."  

"As Dark Holy Elf said, the commoners in the army finding success is also underminded by being close friends and subordinates with the emperor of the continent. Alm and Celica (allegedly) are the people who lead the armies and save the world, two royals." 

"I agree that Berkut is the Duma analogue, but it puts the sybolism of Alm and Celica's relationship in a strange place. Why is Alm, Mr. Complete Package, paired with Celica who is a flawed half? Wouldn't Berkut be the other half to Celica? Why does Alm need Celica at all? The theme of the game is they need to compromise and find a middle ground between two extreme ideals, but Celica is all wrong and Alm doesnt need to compromise. Why are they bound by fate again?" 

 

Agreed. Echoes failed to capture Rigel and Sofia's contrast. Alm is perfect generic anime protagonist number 6,541, and Celica is a damsel in distress. 

 

 

"While there is no official statement that Revelation is canon, it makes the most sense. Heroes and Smash depict Corrin with the Omega Yato (which is the strongest, most complete form), and it's only Revelation that gets the complete story where you fight the real enemy. Conquest and Birthright deliberately avoids letting you know the truth (thanks Azura). You're encouraged by the game itself to not play Revelation first because the first two routes are the flawed ones and Revelation is the "now do it right" path." 

 

I already said it's the most agreeable path. Heroes and Smash are not canon, that we know. Depictions of Corrin with the Omega Yato are in the minority, and I believe that this is deliberate. Fates is structured in a way that branches out into a completely different story depending on your path. Anankos is never mentioned in Birthright and Conquest's epilogues, so it's possible that he's only resurrected in Revelation.  I thought that the warning was issued because IS thought that playing it first would ruin the "revelation". They're all as vapid as one another, so it makes no difference. It actually suggests you play both BR and CQ prior, but I theorize that the reason is monetary.

I'm just saying that with all the multiple dimension bullshit, I doubt that there's a "correct" path.

 

Now that I think about it, Berkut doesn't embody Rigel either. Isn't Rigel supposed to be darwinistic meritocracy? Berkut's all about nobility and birthright, so they fucked that up too.

[(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.]

1 hour ago, DragonFlames said:

There is one mention of Hinoka's battle prowess during the prologue chapters, where Ryoma tells Corrin about Hinoka. He says (loosely translated from the German version): "And I must say, if you ever find yourself facing the wrong end of [Hinoka's] weapon, you'll regret your life choices."

Anyhow, both of you make solid points, I believe. As someone who doesn't blame Fates' story being bad on Corrin, your conversation "proves" that Corrin isn't as bad of a character as some people make him / her out to be.

Also daily reminder that some of Corrin's stupid choices in Fates aren't even his / her fault, since it's mostly their so-called siblings that allegedly love him / her SO much (sarcasm off) and Azura that cause problems to begin with, because they either have major blind loyalty (Nohr), short term memory loss (Hoshido) or are so untrustworthy that it's a miracle they aren't the villain instead, let alone still alive by the time the game begins (Azura).

A bit more on topic: I like Echoes' story for what it is. Sure, there are some flaws (as there are in anything), but I'm willing to overlook them, since they are not that glaring.

It's in the English version too. I took that as more of a compliment to his sister rather than a legit testament to Hinoka's renowned status as warrior. I just found it odd  that he mentioned Hinoka, rather than Xander or Takumi/Leo. The wielders of the legendary weapons. I don't think Hinoka is on that level (lore wise), but I could be wrong.  

 

Fates' story wasn't bad conceptually,(I heard they hired a professional writer after complaints towards Awakening), just in pacing and execution.

I honestly really like both games, so no hate here. I just don't understand why people consider Fates' flaws, Echoes boons. 

[(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.]

1 hour ago, Peaceful_User said:

This so much

Though the latter is quite an interpretation!

 

Revelation is pushed and preferred over every route and it's treated as the canon one. Hell, the way IS characterizes Corrin outside of Fates is Revelations Corrin.

You do know Gray meant that as Alm has a passion that Gray and Tobin don't right? Look at his base conversation. Still better than Corrin though.

Nope, he shows moral gray during Act 5. He genuinely cared about Duma and actually believed Valentia wouldn't last without the gods. He just wasn't used to his full potential. Wish I can say the same to Garon, he NEVER showed moral gray.

Shit reason for a shit plot point tbh. They could've done better than relying on a cliff to begin with.

Again, Hinoka has more experience than Corrin. I already said as such. 

Where? Corrin doesn't even have a canon gender, let alone a canon path. Fates entire gimmick is "choose your own story". Making a canon path that excludes the other two would undermine that.

 Most 3rd party artwork depicts Corrin neutrally, in their starting class with the normal Yato. Occasionally pushing Male Corrin to Birthright, and Female Corrin to Conquest. Smash Bros is the only place that depicts them with the Omega Yato, and Smash is far from canon. Revelation is actually the neglected path, as far as 3rd party goes. 

Doesn't change the fact that Alm, like Corrin, is "The Chosen One". Who will be better than anyone else no matter what because of his ultra-super-mega special dragon-blood. Here's some hard evidence. 

Tobin: Alm, I’m gonna level with you… I’ve always hated how you were better than me at everything. Gray told me I should stop trying to compete with you, but damn it… I just couldn’t see how we were in such different places. But I understand it now. You’re meant to lead, and you have the strength and ability to back it up. My job isn’t to be better than you— it’s to be part of your strength. I’m not going to say I like it…but I can definitely accept it. So I just want you to know that I’ll always be there for you.

Alm undermines his own mantra and proves Berkut and Fernand right. 

 

 

The only thing grey about Judah is his skin. (Bluish grey) Garon is pretty "grey " too.

Jedah: Their souls were offered to Duma freely, and both received endless bliss in turn. Only a fool would refuse to see a truth so plain. You are a burden to your wise sisters, and I shall relieve them of it now! 

Bow before Duma's eminence! Kneel before his awesome power!  

“Keh heh heh... Your struggling is most precious. But I'll not end your meager little lives quite yet. Anthiese! You will ascend Duma Tower and join me at its pinnacle! ...Unless you wish to lose your precious Alm, that is.”  

“All glory...unto Duma...”

“Aah... This cannot be... It mustn't... Lord Duma... My Lord... Duma... ” 

His entire dialogue consists of nothing but mindless worshiping of the giant evil swamp dragon for no fucking reason. Same as Garon. His idea of bliss is hell on earth, just because.  How could he could believe that Doma would save Valentia when they were the ones who fucked it up in the first place? 

I'm not defending Fates' "story", but Echoes is no better. 

I sifted through all of Fates' dialogue, and I didn't find one mention of Hinoka's battle prowess. You say I'm being too hard on Alm but the truth is,  you're being too hard on Corrin.

I found two cards depicting Corrin with the Omega Yato. Tried to put it up there but Serenes is fucking up for some reason.

 

[(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.]

Glad you can admit Faye would do it. I think Echoes Celica would do it too.  

I never said that the entire cast's existence was Alm, I was specifically talking about Faye. Still, that doesn't change the fact that heaps of praise is given to Alm because he's "The Chosen One". Tobin and Grey blatantly lament their inferiority to him in a fashion that  even Corrin's games lack.  How exactly do you think your justification of Celica's actions regarding Judah is valid? The same high priest whose country is attempting to conquer hers? The same priest who is a worshiper of her god's opposite? (Seriously, Doma must be like Satan in Sofia's religion) 

The same priest whose done nothing but try to take her soul through his creepy goons the entire game? The same priest who is totally cool with terrors and the undead roaming the dying earth? He's a Disney villain. Laughably evil, on par with Garon. 

Stop it with that "circlejerking" comment of yours, it's just you  and me. Your interpretation of my posts is very selective, you're not even reading.  

You seem to be concerning over the cliff thing. Need I remind you they only agree to do so after Corrin tries to kill himself to prove his point? 

• Avatar: Well... Now we jump off this bridge. We have to reach the bottom of the canyon to continue.
• Takumi: Avatar, it's called the Bottomless Canyon. By definition, we can't reach the bottom. You're asking us to kill ourselves!
• Gunter: Lord/Lady Avatar, you were prepared for them to doubt you, yes?
• Avatar: Yes, Gunter. I was prepared for this. I'm sorry I haven't been able to tell you the whole truth up until now. I'm certain that you'll be willing to jump once you know why I've been fighting.
• Azura: Avatar! What are you saying? You can't tell them everything here. If you do, the curse...
• Xander: What curse? What is she talking about?
• Avatar: If I speak the truth here, and not down below, a curse will trigger and I'll...vanish. But if that's the only way to convince everyone to jump, then I have to do it. Xander, Ryoma, I'm counting on you two to finish what I've started once I'm gone.

Bashing Alm as hard as I can? There's aren't many things I get excited about these days, getting that from a video game character would be nice. I only said that he is about as good a character as Corrin. 

I'll ask you one last time before giving up. When did the devs confirm a Fates canon? And why is Hinoka's battle prowess so special? 

 

[(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.]

18 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

No they wouldn't. You assuming stuff like this is why I called your point nothing but circlejerk. 

Made leader despite being inexperienced with battle and making dumb decisions like trusting Anthony. 

You're avoiding a lot of my questions you know. This could end a lot sooner, and I hope it does. I don't intend to make replies page after page. 

Your response seems to be addressing the post before my previous one, I'm confused.   

 

Alm is Faye's entire existence, and Echoes made Celica much more "dependent" in lieu of stronger words. My assumptions are justified.  

And Revelation Corrin doesn't trust Anthony.

 

• Avatar: So, Xander was right after all...
• Anthony: Of course he was! I've been ordered to kill every member of your group! Starting with you. After all, you know what they say about cutting off the head... Your friends won't know what to do without you around to lead them!
• Avatar: I think you underestimate them, Anthony. And you underestimate me, too.
• Anthony: Ha! What are you talking about? Like lambs to slaughter, they'll follow me into a trap when I tell them you're missing.
• Avatar: Unless I left behind a message for them before we set out.
• Anthony: ...A message?!
• Avatar: I told them that if I didn't return, it would mean you'd led me into a trap.
• Anthony: But that means...you never trusted me at all!
• Avatar: I wanted to, Anthony. I really did. That's why I'm sad that things have turned out this way. Don't think that means I won't fight you with everything I have, though! The least I can do is thin your numbers so that my friends have an easier time.

 

 There are only 3 people in this thread. (You included) The other guy replied once, so it's really just you and me. I fail to see this "circlejerk".

[(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.]

21 hours ago, Peaceful_User said:

Actually it would because Celica did what she did out of desperation and the way it was set up. She thought if she sacrificed her life everyone would at least be okay underneath Duma taking care of Valentia.

Revelations is canon. Also it isn't just Clive, everyone has a moment of doubting Alm, no one doubts Corrin BUT Takumi.

No, Corrin knows nothing about war except fighting which Corrin hates. Xander kicks Corrin's ass all the time until Elise is killed where he just... gives up. It's kinda sad.

Hinoka would totally have more experience in fighting and commanding than Corrin though. 

Because Judah and his degenerating dragon god is soo trustworthy....  

Link please?  

Their doubt meant nothing then, because they all go along regardless. All while reminding Alm how awesome he is.  

 

Corrin is the leader of his army, and makes all the tactical decisions. That would indicate intelligence. Corrin is the sole wielder of the Yato, and the child of Anankos. Lore wise, he's stronger than both Ryoma and Xander. Gameplay wise too, depending on your file.  

Again, where is Hinoka's prowess mentioned? He defeats her too, you know.

 

 

[(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.]

2 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

No, they would doubt him as well. Faye... not sure but she didn't have faith about him surviving a war and was hesitant about joining him as well. Yeah Birthright Corrin is alright but Revelations is specifically the canon route and the other Corrins don't really matter unfortunately. 

He isn't supposed to, he's only supposed to share ideals with Duma. That's it. He's above Corrin and got criticized and doubted, with Alm having to prove himself every single time. There were way better options to put as the center front of the army who knows more about war but Corrin was put as forefront anyway and it makes no sense. 

It's just Takumi and you do know that they show that Takumi always loved Corrin and that the possession truly screwed him over right? Alm had to always PROVE that he was in the right to multiple characters and had to earn respect. Corrin gets it off the get go due to being a royal. 

Mycen teaches Alm more than how to fight.

"Sir Mycen has been teaching me to use a blade since I was a boy. I’ve received tutelage in military tactics, medicine, weather, terrain… I know as much about war as any man who has never seen one can. Let me fight for you with my grandfather’s gifts. I’ll prove he’s no cowardly old man. He’s a warrior who trains warriors."

All Corrin was taught is how to fight and even then he's not as skilled as say Ryoma or Hinoka. 

Faye would do anything for Alm, lol. And Celica jumping off a cliff wouldn't be the dumbest thing she's done.  

Revelation has the most agreeable route, but this is Fates we're talking about here. Story was not a priority. I don't remember seeing anything regarding the canonicity of any of the paths, so please show me where you got that from.  

 

"It's just Takumi." It's just Clive. Takumi's disdain being more relevant considering Matilda dying isn't canon , where as Corrin betraying Hoshido for Nohr is. (Conquest)  

What non-villain doubts Alm other than Clive? As much as I hate Fernand, I can agree with his decision to leave after Alm is made leader. 

 

It isn't explicitly stated, but Corrin could have learned similar techniques. Even if he didn't, can we agree that there's a difference between learning how to do something and actually doing it?

Considering the fact the Corrin defeats both Ryoma and Xander, along with their respective factions multiple times across the routes, I don't know how you can say that. 

What makes Hinoka so strong again? Her chapter is a bitch on Hard and up, I'll give you that. But that's more to do with her units, rather than herself.

[(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.]

26 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

Alm would never be able to convince anyone to jump off a cliff for him. He gets called insane just for going out to war and gets doubt for making a risky decision. 

Also seriously...? Alm is as bad as Corrin? Now THAT is some circlejerk. I'm impressed... If Alm screws up in the alternate scenarios the game doesn't constantly try to wave the issue away and makes sure to put Corrin in the right, Clive calls out Alm for being the reason his wife dies, and Clive's more displayed in the right to do so. (The game couldn't expand upon this because it's a side project and it lines up with Clive taking part of the blame because he never took action to begin with) 

Alm is actually experienced with war from the teachings of Mycen, Corrin despite being UTTERLY inexperienced, is handed the major roles of the army like leadership and it's... seriously?

Not even Celica? Or Faye?  People seem to forget that Fates has three different stories, and Birthright Corrin is okay.  I come to my conclusion by that fact that both protagonists are inexperienced teenagers who are immediately made leader of an army despite there being better candidates, have super-ultra-special dragon-god blood, a super-ultra-special dragon-god sword that only they can wield, are liked by everyone who isn't a villain, secret royalty, inhumanly compassionate, (Birthright Corrin is more aggressive towards Nohr), you get the picture. 

What "circlejerk" are you talking about? I just don't think Echoes Alm embodies the spirit of Rigel, or is any higher than Corrin as a character.

And if Clive absolves Alm, Takumi does likewise for Corrin. (Conquest)

If Mycen's training fills the experience quota, Xander fills Corrin's. 

[(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.]

46 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I disagree.

An ending where Grey and Tobin become generals or whatever does not impress me, especially since they got there... basically for being Alm's friends.

The game implies that much of what Alm accomplished, he accomplishes because he is special, of chosen blood, a royal, bearing a super-special brand, etc. There's even a scene where Grey and Tobin talk about how he's so much greater than they are. Anyone can be a hero? Nope, to be a hero you have to be a chosen one, and secretly royalty to boot. If that was the game's theme, it undermines it, and it undermines it hard.

Alm matches Duma well enough, he just also has the positive aspects of Mila too. Any contrast the game tries to draw between him and Celica ends up meaningless because Alm gets all the positive traits while Celica is an incomplete package, which is why she gets played for a fool while Alm becomes emperor of the entire continent.

 

Man that's like the least of the game's serious plot problems. There's also Rudolf's plan, the damselfication of over half the female cast, the game allowing Celica to be stupid and wrong so that Alm can look better, Berkut being forgiven after sacrificing his wife to a dark god, the fact that the game makes negative use of its setting, etc.

Couldn't have said it better. I have no clue why being people are fellating this game's plot so much.  Admittedly, Echoes has the best style in terms of audio/visual, very crisp. Best battle animations too, I'm saying I like this game. The fact that people praise Alm while shitting on Corrin baffles me, I don't really see a difference. Hell, even Corrin doesn't have anyone blatantly state they're inferior to him/her. (As far as I remember.)

[Fire Emblem: Hereafter]

19 minutes ago, 2WB said:

This is stupid because in order to make it mean anything besides tedium you also have to disable the battle preview or make the formula setup non-trivial

Both of which are obviously undesirable.

There's basically no point in having both of these. There's barely a point in having one of them; what you need is variety in mage stats to make this meaningful (you basically never do mage v mage combat).

So harsh. He's says he wants to be different, and I wouldn't mind trying something like that.

As far the magic triangle goes, maybe he does plan on doing mage v mage combat?  

He's clearly open to criticism, so I'm not complaining about that. After viewing his text wall, there was nothing positive you could comment on? There's a lot of passion put into this, and seeing nothing but "stupid" upon introduction could be discouraging. The creative community is pretty stagnant, so I'd like to see this come to fruition if he's serious about it.

[Vestaria Saga Main Site Section]

2 minutes ago, Hardin said:

So? Kaga hasn't been involved in the franchise for almost 20 years at this point, nobody is required to shill for him. If Vincent want to add it, that's fine, but I don't think anyone should act like he has an obligation to do so. 

Blasphemy!

All jokes aside, I don't think it should be an obligation either. I just understand why some people want this. 

[Vestaria Saga Main Site Section]

9 hours ago, Hardin said:

Why? It's not an official FE game, or even an official TRS game. 

 

Why not? It'd be odd not to acknowledge a game made by the creator of the series we love. Especially when its gameplay is near identical to the main series, and could been a main title had Kaga stayed. They've already got the other 2, so why exclude this one? 

 

 

With that being said, I'm in favor of this as well. 

[What I want (and don't want) for FE Switch]

1 hour ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

As for setting, I think FE Switch should be a less ambitious game as the first on the console, so I don't think another Medieval European game would hurt. But if they have to imitate Fates and do another "culture clash" plot, I'd like to see either Romans vs. Barbarians or Spaniards vs. Aztecs.

Well considering this is FE's return to it's original console roots, I doubt IS would want it to be outdone by the 3DS. I think I even remember reading about IS swearing off console games because Radiant Dawn's failure. 

 

 

I hope I'm not the only one who noticed but, that's not really FE's style. I see this type of stuff everywhere. Point to an instance in which FE copy/pastes a real world events and "Fire Emblemizes" it. 

The real world names are in that only. Fates is the first in the series to copy/paste a real world location. (Hoshido/Japan) Others just take bits and pieces from various places and/or mythology (usually European) and go from there. 

 

With that being said, is no one interested in a non-European setting?

[What I want (and don't want) for FE Switch]

Sounds nice, but don't get your hopes up. You should expect them to follow the Awakening formula because that's what sells.  I still can't find 100% sure sales figures on Echoes, so correct me if I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure Echoes didn't sell as well as Awakening and Fates. Regardless of anything, I'll likely be reluctantly purchasing a Switch just for FE.

 

Also, does Gothic not fall under medieval Europe? 

[Begnion's Inspiration?]

 A question that's been on my mind lately. I couldn't find anything on it, maybe someone else here knows? Is it completely made up? I also couldn't figure out if there's a real life counterpart for it either. Do any other Tellian countries have real life counterparts? I know Crimea and Gallia exist, but the in game culture isn't based off of them. Feel free to discuss. 

[Begnion's Inspiration?]

 A question that's been on my mind lately. I couldn't find anything on it, maybe someone else here knows? Is it completely made up? I also couldn't figure out if there's a real life counterpart for it either. Do any other Tellian countries have real life counterparts? I know Crimea and Gallia exist, but the in game culture isn't based off of them. Feel free to discuss.