aku chi

Sumia - Pegasus Knight Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 18 6 3 11 11 8 5 7 19 34 17 10 23 24 20 9 15 Cordelia - Pegasus Knight Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 7 25 9 3 13 12 9 8 8 19 36 17 5 21 22 15 14 13

Lissa - Cleric Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 17 1 5 4 4 8 3 4 15 29 4 15 8 11 18 5 10

Avatar w Bronze Sword - 7-10 Atk Chrom w Falchion - 12 Atk Virion w Iron Bow - 12 Atk Sumia w Iron Lance - 12 Atk Sully w Iron Lance - 13 Atk Stahl w Iron Sword - 13 Atk Vaike w Iron Axe - 16 Atk Kellam w Iron Lance - 16 Atk My point is that Chrom and Sully's Spd leads over Stahl don't matter if they don't let them double. Chrom and Sully generally need a heavy Spd support to double in the early game. Thankfully, Sully has such an option in Chrom, but Chrom needs to wait for either Sumia/Lon'qu or a C+ support with Avatar, Sully, or Stahl. More generally: all non-Frederick, non-Avatar units kinda suck earlygame. Holding that against Stahl alone is unjust. I'm trying to understand how you believe that Stahl should re-class but is a poor unit when he does. I have an idea, though: let the people who think more highly of Stahl suggest what is best for Stahl. Stahl should remain a Cavalier and promote to Paladin or Great Knight. Cavalier is a fantastic unpromoted class. +2 mov, two weapon types (with a skill that makes using both easy), solid pair-up bonuses, and no weaknesses that matter. Stahl should not give that up to become a weaker, less durable, less mobile, swords-locked unit all to gain enough Spd to double. Cavalier Stahl can gain the Spd to double with a dedicated Spd support. And Stahl is arguably better as a Great Knight that can't double than as a Swordmaster that can. An S support results in a very high chance of dual strikes. With Great Knight Stahl's massive Str, a dual strike generally leads to a ORKO. Great Knight Stahl has great physical durability, and so can tank in the Valm chapters with near impunity. But this is still Stahl's second best option. Best of all is if Stahl can get a Cordelia support and double as a Paladin. Then he can tank magic, too, and ORKO most everything. Re-classing to Swordmaster for the Grima arc has some merit (especially if nobody else can wield Amatsu), but re-classing to Myrmidon is foolhardy. I agree that Stahl has a mediocre earlygame, but he can be one of the best units midgame and remain very solid lategame. A Tier is where he belongs. The problem is that every map has bows or wind magic that Cordelia cannot endure. It's much easier to use Cordelia (and any flier) when you have a competent non-flier unit that you can switch to when bows or wind magic would threaten Cordelia. Stahl can be such a unit. Kellam cannot. Nowi doesn't have this problem, obviously.

"everyone" = grandjackal He has a horse. He also has better Hit (due to weapons and weapon triangle control), something that was bothering you about Vaike's earlygame IIRC. Very few units can double early-game. Hell, even Fred needs a +Spd pair-up to double most units. So don't hold Stahl to a higher standard than Chrom or Sully. Vaike's re-class makes sense because Barbarian is a good class. Stahl's doesn't... Your Vaike was Spd-screwed. Don't let that color your opinion of all 6-Spd early-joiners. A level 13 Fighter Vaike and a level 12 Cavalier Stahl average 11 Spd, which is enough to double with an A Panne or A Cordelia support. That's silly. Kellam can't stand on his own: he's pair-up fodder. He can't double even with a Spd support. Sure, he gives better initial pair-up boosts to Cordelia, but it's a one-sided relationship. Paladin Stahl can switch in when bows or wind magic would threaten Cordelia. Plus, Cordelia appreciates a little Spd from her pair-up partner to double the fastest units. Anyways, are you talking about another playthrough? Because you didn't train Stahl or Cordelia in your latest logged playthrough.

I'd be interested to know how useful Lon'qu can be outside of pair-up fodder.

Um... Stahl should not be re-classed. He's very good as a Cavalier->Paladin (or even Great Knight), he just needs a pair-up partner that boosts Spd. Cordelia is his ideal partner, and she gets a lot out of the support too (Paladin gives great pair-up boosts). Cordelia & Stahl can do lategame what Sumia & Frederick can do earlygame. Avatar, Chrom, Sully, Sumia, and Lon'qu can all provide some Spd for him before Cordelia joins. Sully and Sumia (despite the lack of S-support) can make a decent long-term pair-up partner for Stahl if you aren't using Cordelia or have other plans for her. Stahl is right where he belongs, IMO, though the Pegasus Knights will undoubtedly rise above him before this tier list settles.

Supports boost crit by 10+, so it's very easy to get some crit as a result of Anathema. Plus, some Sorcerers are reclassed from Mages, which have Focus for more crit.

Nowi > Panne is not obvious to me. It's durability vs. offense and mobility. And considering that roughly half the maps are kill boss, I would think offense and mobility would be more valuable. Can you justify this proposed move with a detailed comparison between the two units? As for Manakete tanking being better than Nosferatu tanking, I strongly disagree. Manaketes take damage and they don't auto-recover health. There are lategame enemies whose Atk exceeds the Manakete's maximum Def. And with Tiki, at least, most lategame enemies damage her some (~5-10 HP). This puts a limit on the amount of exposure Manakete's can endure. A competent Sorcerer with enough Nosferatu literally cannot be killed (excluding Counter shenanigans). Sorcerers also tend to have better offense than the Manaketes. Manaketes are generally slower than Sorcerers (Henry excluded). Sorcerers have a similar Atk with Noseratu but hit Res (dealing much more damage against the toughest enemies for Manaketes to ORKO: Generals, Great Knights, Wyvern Lords, Warriors, and Berserkers) and have skills that can result in extra damage (Anathema and Vengeance, at the very least). Nosferatu is only trivially more expensive per use than a Dragonstone (49 G vs. 46 G). But with Anathema leading to crit-kills, Nosferatu tanking is generally cheaper than Manakete tanking. Dragonstone+, on the other hand, is much more expensive per use than Nosferatu (108 G vs. 49 G). Unrelated: I plan to argue Lon'qu and Lucina (Avatar) below the Pegasus Knights at some point. If anybody can justify their current position, I would be most eager to read such justification.

Chrom - Lord Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 20 7 1 8 8 5 7 1 11 28 13 1 13 14 13 12 4

Plus, I don't think Anathema can reduce Crit Eva below 0.

Avatar (+HP, -Lck) - Tactician Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res 1 24 6 5 5 6 2 6 4 20 47 15 12 14 15 8 12 12

And with Aptitude, Veteran, and Discipline, Morgan would grow into a very competent Paladin (or Great Knight).

(reads...) Wow. I am genuinely surprised Nowi can level up so quickly. Your turn counts didn't seem to suffer, either. I know that Tiki levels up quickly. I was able to get her to ~30/8 in my run. But she still couldn't 2HKO most enemies (certainly not the Generals, Great Knights, Warriors, and Berserkers). And she couldn't double the Swordmasters, Assasins, and some Valkyries, Falcon Knights, and Dark Fliers (IIRC). Don't get me wrong, it was awesome that she could tank physical units and magic units alike and ORKO ~half the enemies with Dual Strike support. But most of my other units had better offense, and my Sorcerer (Laurent (Avatar)) had better offense and durability. I believe Nosferatu is purchaseable after C12, so... that's when Tharja becomes effectively unkillable (if her shaky Avo and Eva can be cleared up with supports and stat boosters). I didn't use Tharja, but my Sorcerer Laurent trivialized the game in short order. How do you plan to argue Nowi up to S Tier?

Dark Mage Morgan is probably be better, but it might be informative to find out how well Mercenary->Hero Morgan works. Morgan will definitely have a slower start as a Mercenary, and he will have a tough time working himself out of E Axes as a Hero, but with Sol and Rightful King, he could be a very effective tank later on. It hard to imagine that would be more effective than Dark Mage Morgan, though, who can tank immediately. As for Sumia, if you plan to keep her paired with Frederick, I'd go Falcon Knight for the eventual Lancefaire. Hammer Frederick can deal with Generals, if needed. You could go Dark Flier and pair her up with Henry, but it doesn't seem like her Magic is high enough for tomes to be her primary weapon.

I've been wondering the same thing. I'm on a brisk Lunatic run right now where I plan to marry Chrom and Avatar, so I'll post the base stats for my Lucina when she joins. I'm betting that Lucina (Avatar) needs to drop, probably to A Tier, but I can't make an argument until I have a good idea what her base stats are. How did Nowi gain 25 levels before C16? I haven't used Nowi, but I found Tiki's offense merely good (her durability was great). Tiki failed to double the fasest enemies (even with an Anna pair-up), failed to 2HKO most physical enemies, and had no crit or skills that could add damage. She was, therefore, often reliant on Dual Strikes to ORKO. Did you experience something similar with Nowi? Nowi > Tharja seems like a difficult argument to make. They join at a similar time. Tharja's start isn't quite as bad as Nowi's. Tharja grows to be effectively unkillable, like Nowi. But Tharja's offensive potential is greater with tomes like Ruin and Waste and skills like Anathema and Vengeance. Nowi > Vaike and Miriel, on the other hand, seems very plausible.

Sully > Panne? Interceptor's playlog suggests that my level estimates for Sully were, if anything, too conservative. Interceptor had a level 14 Sully after Paralogue 3 and a level 16 Sully after Chapter 8. Grandjackal, meanwhile, has a level 9 Panne after Paralogue 3, but a level 10 Panne entering C8 seems possible.

I've been thinking a bit about supports for the Pegasus Knights. Have you considered Cordelia x Stahl? That seems to be a match made in heaven. Stahl gives Cordelia Str and Def (3 to start and 6+ in the long run) and some Spd for Cordelia to double the fastest enemies. Cordelia gives Stahl the two stats he most wants: Spd and Res - and plenty of it (8+ in the long run)! You would want to have trained Stahl some at this point, however (Chrom, Avatar, Sully, Sumia, and Lon'qu are all helpful supports for Stahl early). As for Sumia, pairing her with Frederick early seems to work wonders, but Fred eventually needs to be benched. A thought: promote Sumia to Dark Flier and pair her with Henry! Henry gets much needed Spd (5 to start and 8 in the long run) and helpful Mag and Res to boot. Sumia gets much needed Mag and Def (and Res after Henry promotes). Henry joins just as the game is entering its easiest stretch, so building up a new support from scratch is definitely doable. The lategame potential for Sumia x Henry is fantastic. Galeforce Sumia kills and enemy and advances Henry to solo most of the map with Noseratu.

Ha! You had me fooled. I appreciate the jest. But now I'm kind of disappointed; dynamic growths would have been cool.

I'm trying to wrap my head around Lucina (Avatar). What's the best approach to using her? Lord -> Great Lord (Avatar passes Veteran) On the upside, Lucina gets to use the Rapiers and you don't need a Second Seal. Lucina needs to be promoted to get a 1-2 range option, and has to work out of E Lances. Aether is unfortunately a redundant skill. Cavalier -> Paladin (Avatar passes Veteran) Lucina can still use swords, but gets lances as a 1-2 range option. Discipline helps her rank up. +2 mov is always good. Tactician -> Grandmaster (Avatar passes Ignis) Lucina can still use swords, but gets tomes as a 1-2 range option. Is her Magic any good? Ignis is unfortunately a redundant skill. I guess if you reclassed your Avatar, you could pass on something unique. Tactician -> Dark Mage -> Sorcerer (Avatar passes Ignis) Lucina can use swords as a Tactician, but gets some time to build up her tome rank. Re-class to Dark Mage at level 10 and D Tomes and have fun with Nosferatu. Is her Magic good enough for this to be worth it? Is it worth two Second Seals? Unlikely, I reckon. Plus, Morgan will be the better Sorcerer of the pair. Pegasus Knight -> Dark Flier (Avatar passes Veteran) Go for broke in an attempt to get Galeforce! Given that Lucina needs to give up swords (including Parallel Falchion), I can't imagine this is very efficient. Something else I'm not thinking of?

Very impressive! Loving the Knight Ring already, I see. :) That was quite a team effort to get the Energy Drop, I hope it gets put to good use. Edit: Also, it's great to see Tanith's reinforcements make a contribution.

Sully certainly isn't a superstar in her starting chapters, but "one of the worst units" is an overstatement. She's clearly more valuable than Virion and Ricken. Kellam is only valuable for his pair-up bonuses. Miriel and Vaike have worse starts than Sully. Lissa and Maribelle are only moderately useful. Stahl is on the level. There are only 3 units that clearly outclass Sully earlygame: Frederick, Avatar, and Chrom. I'd forgotten how long it takes to get Steel weapons: good point. Then Cavalier Sully doesn't lead Taguel Panne by much in the early-going. You seem to be assuming a Chrom support for Sully. While that's definitely one of her better supports, she has others (all of Panne's options). I was originally going to compare 12/1 Sully with 10/1 Panne, but 6 levels in 7 chapters seemed low to me. In most Fire Emblem games, a unit that roughly matches the enemy's level can grow at least one level per chapter. Awakening is certainly different with higher XP gain counterbalanced by the pair-up mechanic, so maybe it's different. Or maybe those early chapters have a lower enemy density than in other FE games. I welcome more data on this point. I hope we don't get bogged down on the details of Sully's expected level, because that's a small part of the analysis. The non-obvious advantages Sully gains from an earlier S support and better weapon rank are what make Sully and Panne almost equally valuable mid-game. And because Panne only has minor advantages over Sully lategame, I think Sully's superior earlygame pushes her over Panne. I think there's a pretty large cost associated with either of those Second Seals. Potential candidates: Panne (to Wyvern Rider) Chrom (to Cavalier) Sully (to Wyvern Rider) Avatar (to... Dark Mage, or Cavalier, or Pegasus Knight, or...) Lon'qu (to Wyvern Rider) Vaike (to Barbarian) (any more?) When do we get the third Second Seal? Lon'qu and Vaike might not be affected much by the wait. Indeed. Wyvern Rider Sully isn't without advantages, though. Wyvern Rider Sully has more Str and Def whereas Cavalier Sully has more Spd and Res. Wyvern Rider has flight, but also has weaknesses. As a Wyvern Rider, Sully can level faster, but she promotes later. Sully needs to work her way out of E Axes as a Wyvern Rider, but gets the useful Hammer in time for the Valm Generals. I honestly don't know whether it's more valuable to re-class Sully to Wyvern Rider. But if Wyvern Rider Sully is more valuable than Wyvern Rider Panne, that's all that's needed to show Sully > Panne. Good question. If Sully is best as a Cavalier->Paladin, then I think Chrom > Sully would be easy enough to argue. If not, then it's a tougher comparison weighing the pros and cons of flight. Honestly, I could see Frederick at the top or bottom of S Tier; it all depends on how viable/valuable he is midgame. I didn't use Frederick a lot in my Hard Mode playthrough (mostly as a pair-up), so he fell off hard after the Gangrel arc. I think there's plenty to be fleshed out before we can be confident that S Tier is properly sorted. In an effort to make the smallest change at present, I'd lean towards moving Panne down.

Keeping discussion in this thread would promote inclusivity. A level 8 Sully when Panne joins seems like a lower limit if we're reasonably using Sully (that's 6 levels in 7 chapters). Sully compares almost as well at level 8 as level 10 (~1 less Atk, Spd, and Def). Also Sully can potentially be reclassed earlier than Panne to get a head start on Wyvern Rider leveling (a level 10 Panne after Paralogue 3 is a stretch). In a Sully v. Panne comparison, resource considerations can only favor Sully. Panne needs to reclass ASAP to be an S-tier unit. For simplicity, I analyzed Sully's performance when given the same resource at the same time. That Sully can also contribute greatly without a Second Seal is only an advantage. I'll post a comparison of Wyvern Rider Panne and Cavalier->Paladin Sully later, if you think it would be helpful. But we must be mindful that such a comparison ignores the large opportunity cost of Panne taking one of the first two Second Seals.

No thoughts on Sully > Panne? :(

That won't change the analysis much. Subtract 1 Spd, Atk, and Def at most and Panne still doesn't have a notable advantage over Sully until well past the halfway mark.

Greetings, all. I've been thinking about Panne vs. Sully recently. Both are undoubtedly S Tier units, but I think Sully might be the more valuable unit. Panne v. Sully Sully joins on turn 2 of C1 and has all of C1, C2, C3, P1, C4, C5, P2, and part of C6 before Panne joins. She's immediately useable, and flourishes with a Chrom or Stahl support (they likewise benefit from the support). She can make solid contributions in all of these chapters. I reckon Sully can handily gain 8 levels and reach at least C Lances before Panne is recruited. Let's see how they compare initially: Level 10 Sully (Cavalier): 26.8 HP, 12.8 Skl, 12.8 Spd, 10.8 Lck, 10.6 Def, 4 Res w Steel Lance: 21.4 Atk w Javelin: 14.4 Atk Level 6 Panne (Taguel): 28 HP, 8+3 Str, 9+5 Skl, 10+5 Spd, 8+4 Lck, 7+1 Def, 3 Res Beaststone: 17 Atk Panne has a notable Spd advantage, but Sully leads in all other departments. She has +1 mov, considerably better 1-range Atk, existent 1-2 range Atk, slightly better durability, and existent supports. Panne is certainly useable, especially when paired with a unit like Stahl, but Sully contributes more in C6, C7, P3, and C8. At this point we get our first Second Seal. Panne needs this resource to be an S-tier unit. Sully benefits from the Second Seal, but can also contribute greatly as a Cavalier->Paladin (especially if paired with Stahl). Leaving this flexibility advantage aside, let's compare Panne and Sully when re-classed to Wyvern Riders: Level 14/1 Sully (Wyvern Rider): 31.2 HP, 16.2 Skl, 14.2 Spd, 13.2 Lck, 13.4 Def, 5 Res w Bronze Axe: 20.6 Atk Level 10/1 Panne (Wyvern Rider): 33 HP, 13.8 Skl, 13 Spd, 9.6 Lck, 14 Def, 1.8 Res w Bronze Axe: 21.4 Atk At this point, Panne and Sully appear pretty even. Sully has a small Spd advantage, Panne has a small Atk advantage. Panne has slightly more physical durability, Sully has moderately more magical durability. Panne also retains her beast weakness, which is rarely, but occasionally, a hindrance. Sully has some additional advantages. She has had much more time to develop supports. It's trivial for Sully to have an A support with Chrom (which is excellent for both) or Stahl (Stahl laments the lack of Spd bonus from Wyvern Rider). Panne is likely still at C-support level with her chosen partner (Stahl? Lon'qu? Vaike? Gregor?). Sully can reach an S support with Chrom or Stahl by the time Panne develops a B-support. It takes Panne several more chapters to reap the benefits of the A and S supports. Panne also lacks the useful Chrom support of Sully. Sully also has Discipline, which has a huge effect as these two units grow. Sully will reach D Axes twice as fast as Panne (for the Iron Axe, Hand Axe, and Hammer). Sully will reach C Axes by the time Panne reaches C Axes (for the Steel Axe, Killer Axe, and Short Axe). Sully will reach B Axes before Panne reaches C Axes (for the Silver Axe). Finally, Sully will reach A Axes not long after Panne reaches C Axes (for +1 Atk). It's not all bad news for Panne; she does have generally superior growths. Let's see their stats at level 10 Wyvern Rider: Level 14/10 Sully (Wyvern Rider): 38.85 HP, 21.15 Skl, 19.15 Spd, 18.6 Lck, 17.45 Def, 7.25 Res w Hand Axe: 25.45 Atk w Steel Axe: 33.45 Atk w Silver Axe: 37.45 Atk Level 10/10 Panne (Wyvern Rider): 42.45 HP, 19.65 Skl, 19.3 Spd, 13.2 Lck, 18.5 Def, 3.6 Res w Hand Axe: 27.15 Atk w Iron Axe: 31.15 Atk w Steel Axe: 35.15 Atk Panne has closed Sully's Spd advantage. Panne has a Str advantage, but Sully can more than offset that with access to better weapons thanks to Discipline. As before, Panne has slightly more physical durability, Sully has slightly more magical durability. So here we are, more than half way through the game, and Panne has yet to be better than Sully. The tables do start to turn, slowly, due to Panne's superior growths. Let's observe the pair at X/20/1 (or X/10/11 or what-have-you) Wyvern Lord. Level 14/20/1 Sully (Wyvern Lord): 52.35 HP, 28.65 Skl, 26.65 Spd, 24.6 Lck, 24.95 Def, 12.75 Res w Hand Axe (A-rank): 36.95 Atk w Silver Axe (A-rank): 48.95 Atk w Steel Lance: 41.95 Atk Level 10/20/1 Panne (Wyvern Lord): 57.95 HP, 28.15 Skl, 28.3 Spd, 17.2 Lck, 26.5 Def, 8.6 Res w Hand Axe (B-rank): 38.65 Atk w Silver Axe (B-rank): 50.95 Atk w Bronze Lance: 38.65 Atk Even after all these level-ups, Panne only has a small Spd and Atk advantage. Sully has the better Lance weapon rank and faster growth, which mostly serves to increase her durability (via avoid) against Sword-wielding units. With more HP, Panne is on the better end of the physical vs. magical durability advantages enjoyed by Panne and Sully, but the advantage is slight. In conclusion, Sully contributes for seven chapters before Panne is available. Sully is better than Panne for several chapters afterwards. Panne only develops small combat leads over Sully late in the game. Sully also has more flexibility. While I re-classed her to Wyvern Rider in this analysis for ease of comparison to Panne, she does almost as well without the Second Seal as a Cavalier->Paladin. Sully also has a valuable Chrom support that Panne lacks (and Chrom/Sully is a great pairing for both units). Sully > Panne