Seven Deadly Sins

I've actually got one that I'm working on. Watch this space in the next few days.

There are three second seals before Lucina, and there are more in the chapters that follow, as well as a couple in the child Paralogues (specifically Morgan, Cynthia, Owain, Nah), as well as one in Chapter 15. They're also buyable after completing Severa, Inigo, or Nah's paralogues, as well as after Chapter 16. By then, they are really not in that short supply, and few characters *need* one. Lucina also happens to be better than any of those characters, with the exception of Panne, so it's hard to say she doesn't earn one. Avatar probably doesn't want one until she's xx/10 since she wants to promote directly into a class like Dark Knight or Dark Flier, so she can wait. After that it's what? Panne and Chrom are the only ones that are really in dire need of them that are close to her, and otherwise we're looking at Miriel and Vaike, or at someone terrible like Donnel. I think the idea of second seal competition is a bit overboard, only a few characters concretely need them and most of the others are just luxuries that depend on player preference.

Half of the game is rather dire. There are a lot of Paralogues after chapter 13, and it happens to be when things are turning on. With Veteran, she's gaining basically an entire level per kill, especially if she Second Seals to something like Cavalier. With Avatar, she's not only got great stats, but a built in pair of amazing supports already at C to help her get off the ground. I think someone who gains turbo EXP and can almost immediately start outperforming people while having a permanently available better-than-silver sword with slayer on one of the most common and obnoxious lategame enemies (Wyverns) that also doubles as a concoction is deserving of a spot that high. Lucina without Veteran isn't quite worth it, she's not much better than other kids. But with Veteran and an inbuilt C Avatar / Chrom support, I think she earns a spot.

Oh, and for the record, cavaliers in Ch14 basically sit at 12 Speed, which means 17 is all that's needed to double. One rank of Henry x Sumia with Dark Flier and 20 Speed on Sumia gives +6 Speed, which means even at base, Henry only needs the Sumia support and a tonic to double. I believe the Pegasi are 16 speed, so 20 doubles them. I've got a save sitting on Chapter 15 if we want enemy data.

On kid tiering: The farthest I'm willing to go before things get really stupid is to designate tiers for them. For example: Kid Tier List: A: Morgan Any Avatar's Child B: Yarne Kjelle Cynthia C: Owain Gerome Severa D: Nah Noire Brady Inigo This list has the stipulation that "if the kids were in the actual tier list, they'd probably be somewhere in there or below, with exact placement varying based on parents and parents' stats". Okay, so let's hit Henry vs. Tharja now. The main thing that I want to hit here is supports. Namely, Tharja doesn't have great ones. Her best supports are either Libra (patching up weak points, like her mediocre Defense and godawful Luck) or one of the few very sought-after speed supports (Gaius, Lon'qu, and Gregor), which do nothing for her mediocre Defense or her damage dealing. Anna is a dead end support that does nothing other than delay a more worthwhile support, so I don't consider her a viable option for any long-term use, as she actually weakens Tharja in the long run by watering down her supports. Henry, on the other hand, has two potential supports in Dark Flier Sumia and Cordelia, both of which provide him with exactly what he needs to get ahead- Speed, Resistance, and Magic. His Defense, Skill, and Luck are enough for him to do the job, so having a support that targets the exact stats he needs is a godsend. As for it being "greedy" it's no less greedy than taking one of the limited speed supports in the game, especially when you consider that the time Henry shows up is about the time that Frederick is either being dropped or pairing up with Cynthia (depending on his amount of EXP gain and whether or not you have early access to Cynthia). Considering what Henry gets out of the support, it's hard to say that Henry would ever be seriously used without a Dark Flier support. Also, by now Sumia's strength is probably starting to taper off pretty hard (6+45% Strength does not a murder machine make) and we're in Valm, land of hard bodies, so it's not unreasonable to say that she's moving on to greener pastures. Furthermore, it's not unreasonable to say that when both are doubling, Henry is winning handily. His superior Defense, Luck, and Skill make him much more reliable, and at base it takes about 30 levels for Tharja to "catch up" to Henry's Strength lead, not to mention his weapon rank lead as well. Furthermore, once Henry starts doubling, he usually doesn't stop doubling (except on the things that most characters have trouble doubling, like swordmasters, heroes, and maybe falcon knights). To top it off, Henry has enough of a stat buffer to be able to reliably go Dark Knight, since his higher Defense makes him less reliant on Nosferatu. It's also worth noting that Tharja only has 3 more base Speed than Henry (4 if you scale on base level) and wins the growth by only 5%, which really isn't enough to call it a huge win, especially when Henry has a good claim to an exceptional Speed support. For the most part, it comes down to Tharja's 4 maps (and what she can get out of them) versus Henry's "pretty much the rest of the game". Considering Tharja isn't exactly a blowout on those four maps, I'd say it's a wash.

Honestly, I don't like the idea of integrating kids into the tier list. I do like the idea of noting which tier the kids would "probably" be in on average, considering good and likely pairups. Comparing them to other units in a head-to-head manner is hard, but an approximation at the bottom of where the kids would fit in tier-wise makes sense.

I have a big henry post in the works, but I am busy so that will come later. For now, "lowmanning" actually needs to be addressed. There is a lot of EXP in this game. Tons of it. A heinous amount. Enemies are both numerous and high levelled. In a playthrough I'm doing, I am managing to raise about 10 different units as straight up combat units (Chrom, Lucina, Avatar, Sully, Stahl, Panne, Henry, Lon'qu (now dropped for Kjelle), and Nowi, as well as getting Anna levels wherever I can manage it) and everyone involved is still hitting promotion time around the time that enemies start being tough enough that you need to promote, which also just happens to be when Master Seals become buyable. At this point, the only unpromoted units are Lucina (who is already a level 11 Cavalier after two maps, Veteran and a low join level is retarded) and Kjelle (and only because she literally just arrived). This is with a fully efficient playthrough, abiding by all rules set forth in the OP. Units in this game are fucking incredible. Sure, you *can* solo with them. You can solo with a lot of units in a number of Fire Emblem games, and those units tend to be higher. Not as a result mind you, but because the units that can do so tend to be amazing even with less levels and only a standard share of the EXP. In this game, there is no excuse not to use a full team, and in a number of cases, use pairs where both units are expected to be combat-capable (Chrom x Lucina, Panne x Stahl, Sully x Lon'qu, Frederick x Sumia) and still have them get plenty of experience. This is why solos are generally frowned upon. A team with a full roster of competent units (which is the standard play and one that is not unrealistic) has an inherent advantage over a solo simply because it has more options, more ability to cover ground and space, etc. This is why we make our EXP calculations and general "expected levels" based on an army in which everyone is getting a sahre. Units that need more in a short term to excel or naturally tend to earn more can get a bit of a bump, but we're not going to be saying "unit x can solo efficiently, clearly they are getting 100% of the exp, chain-reclassing multiple times, and winning the universe" on a tier list. Otherwise, why bother comparing units? I'm sure you can go off and make a tier list based on how efficiently units solo the game. It would end up taking into account stats, ability to earn kills, durability, availability, etc, and I'm sure it would be another way to get to a list that is basically going to look very much like this one. That's not the list or the discussion that we're having here though, because that's dull. e: Also Olwen, I'm reporting your next one or two line snarkpost. It's not contributing, so cut it out. e2: also can everyone stop responding to snark with more snark tia

No, he gets Cynthia. Also, try not to be snarky. One-liners like that don't help the discussion, they just distract. Let's keep things focused.

Tharja starts 2 Mag behind Henry, and Henry has C Tomes, meaning Tharja has to pick up 3 mt (either in tome skill or raw magic) somewhere to simply match him at base. Combine that with the fact that Tharja is unlikely to have a magic-boosting support, and Henry has the clear advantage in raw mt during the heads up. e: Tharja has to be in 20 combats in 4 maps in order to hit C tomes. If she's doubling, that means she has to be in 10 non-nosferatu combats in order to hit C Tomes. On average, she'll get that 3 mt in 5 levels, which isn't insane for Tharja, but it also means that a level 15 Tharja can only match a level 12 Henry in raw damage, not even considering supports. 1. It's not that the argument is riding a lot on Sumia, it's that Henry has much better options for supports than Tharja in order to deal with his potential issues. Tharja's best shot at patching up her issues is Libra, who doesn't give Speed, and she has no supports with Dark Flier, the best class possible to leverage her utility. As a result, Tharja's support options are basically "win speed, lose everything else" or "almost be as good at things as henry" with a Libra support. 2. Sumia is already assumed to get Frederick, and it's basically a universal acceptance among people at the moment that Fred hits a wall around Valm, how is it hard to assume that if Henry is in play, he's getting the Dark Flier Sumia support? Fred either has been benched and is no longer in active rotation, or he's still a powerhouse, and he's spending some quality father-daughter time while Sumia has a fling with a dangerous man with a mysterious past? 3. "forced to only two potential pairup partners" is a questionable way of putting it. It's not that Henry only has two supports, it's that Dark Flier is literally the perfect support in every way possible. A flying chauffeur, a huge Speed boost, a power boost, and a non-insignificant res boost. It's very similar to earlygame Sumia, actually. Sure, she "has options" but why pair her with anyone other than Frederick? Likewise, why pair Henry with anyone other than Dark Flier Cordelia or Sumia?

Other way around: She's not exactly in her element while fighting mages, since I'm pretty sure she doesn't ORKO them and they do more damage to her lower Resistance, especially the Sage on the right side.