Seven Deadly Sins

I've actually got one that I'm working on. Watch this space in the next few days.

There are three second seals before Lucina, and there are more in the chapters that follow, as well as a couple in the child Paralogues (specifically Morgan, Cynthia, Owain, Nah), as well as one in Chapter 15. They're also buyable after completing Severa, Inigo, or Nah's paralogues, as well as after Chapter 16. By then, they are really not in that short supply, and few characters *need* one. Lucina also happens to be better than any of those characters, with the exception of Panne, so it's hard to say she doesn't earn one. Avatar probably doesn't want one until she's xx/10 since she wants to promote directly into a class like Dark Knight or Dark Flier, so she can wait. After that it's what? Panne and Chrom are the only ones that are really in dire need of them that are close to her, and otherwise we're looking at Miriel and Vaike, or at someone terrible like Donnel. I think the idea of second seal competition is a bit overboard, only a few characters concretely need them and most of the others are just luxuries that depend on player preference.

Half of the game is rather dire. There are a lot of Paralogues after chapter 13, and it happens to be when things are turning on. With Veteran, she's gaining basically an entire level per kill, especially if she Second Seals to something like Cavalier. With Avatar, she's not only got great stats, but a built in pair of amazing supports already at C to help her get off the ground. I think someone who gains turbo EXP and can almost immediately start outperforming people while having a permanently available better-than-silver sword with slayer on one of the most common and obnoxious lategame enemies (Wyverns) that also doubles as a concoction is deserving of a spot that high. Lucina without Veteran isn't quite worth it, she's not much better than other kids. But with Veteran and an inbuilt C Avatar / Chrom support, I think she earns a spot.

Oh, and for the record, cavaliers in Ch14 basically sit at 12 Speed, which means 17 is all that's needed to double. One rank of Henry x Sumia with Dark Flier and 20 Speed on Sumia gives +6 Speed, which means even at base, Henry only needs the Sumia support and a tonic to double. I believe the Pegasi are 16 speed, so 20 doubles them. I've got a save sitting on Chapter 15 if we want enemy data.

On kid tiering: The farthest I'm willing to go before things get really stupid is to designate tiers for them. For example: Kid Tier List: A: Morgan Any Avatar's Child B: Yarne Kjelle Cynthia C: Owain Gerome Severa D: Nah Noire Brady Inigo This list has the stipulation that "if the kids were in the actual tier list, they'd probably be somewhere in there or below, with exact placement varying based on parents and parents' stats". Okay, so let's hit Henry vs. Tharja now. The main thing that I want to hit here is supports. Namely, Tharja doesn't have great ones. Her best supports are either Libra (patching up weak points, like her mediocre Defense and godawful Luck) or one of the few very sought-after speed supports (Gaius, Lon'qu, and Gregor), which do nothing for her mediocre Defense or her damage dealing. Anna is a dead end support that does nothing other than delay a more worthwhile support, so I don't consider her a viable option for any long-term use, as she actually weakens Tharja in the long run by watering down her supports. Henry, on the other hand, has two potential supports in Dark Flier Sumia and Cordelia, both of which provide him with exactly what he needs to get ahead- Speed, Resistance, and Magic. His Defense, Skill, and Luck are enough for him to do the job, so having a support that targets the exact stats he needs is a godsend. As for it being "greedy" it's no less greedy than taking one of the limited speed supports in the game, especially when you consider that the time Henry shows up is about the time that Frederick is either being dropped or pairing up with Cynthia (depending on his amount of EXP gain and whether or not you have early access to Cynthia). Considering what Henry gets out of the support, it's hard to say that Henry would ever be seriously used without a Dark Flier support. Also, by now Sumia's strength is probably starting to taper off pretty hard (6+45% Strength does not a murder machine make) and we're in Valm, land of hard bodies, so it's not unreasonable to say that she's moving on to greener pastures. Furthermore, it's not unreasonable to say that when both are doubling, Henry is winning handily. His superior Defense, Luck, and Skill make him much more reliable, and at base it takes about 30 levels for Tharja to "catch up" to Henry's Strength lead, not to mention his weapon rank lead as well. Furthermore, once Henry starts doubling, he usually doesn't stop doubling (except on the things that most characters have trouble doubling, like swordmasters, heroes, and maybe falcon knights). To top it off, Henry has enough of a stat buffer to be able to reliably go Dark Knight, since his higher Defense makes him less reliant on Nosferatu. It's also worth noting that Tharja only has 3 more base Speed than Henry (4 if you scale on base level) and wins the growth by only 5%, which really isn't enough to call it a huge win, especially when Henry has a good claim to an exceptional Speed support. For the most part, it comes down to Tharja's 4 maps (and what she can get out of them) versus Henry's "pretty much the rest of the game". Considering Tharja isn't exactly a blowout on those four maps, I'd say it's a wash.

Honestly, I don't like the idea of integrating kids into the tier list. I do like the idea of noting which tier the kids would "probably" be in on average, considering good and likely pairups. Comparing them to other units in a head-to-head manner is hard, but an approximation at the bottom of where the kids would fit in tier-wise makes sense.

I have a big henry post in the works, but I am busy so that will come later. For now, "lowmanning" actually needs to be addressed. There is a lot of EXP in this game. Tons of it. A heinous amount. Enemies are both numerous and high levelled. In a playthrough I'm doing, I am managing to raise about 10 different units as straight up combat units (Chrom, Lucina, Avatar, Sully, Stahl, Panne, Henry, Lon'qu (now dropped for Kjelle), and Nowi, as well as getting Anna levels wherever I can manage it) and everyone involved is still hitting promotion time around the time that enemies start being tough enough that you need to promote, which also just happens to be when Master Seals become buyable. At this point, the only unpromoted units are Lucina (who is already a level 11 Cavalier after two maps, Veteran and a low join level is retarded) and Kjelle (and only because she literally just arrived). This is with a fully efficient playthrough, abiding by all rules set forth in the OP. Units in this game are fucking incredible. Sure, you *can* solo with them. You can solo with a lot of units in a number of Fire Emblem games, and those units tend to be higher. Not as a result mind you, but because the units that can do so tend to be amazing even with less levels and only a standard share of the EXP. In this game, there is no excuse not to use a full team, and in a number of cases, use pairs where both units are expected to be combat-capable (Chrom x Lucina, Panne x Stahl, Sully x Lon'qu, Frederick x Sumia) and still have them get plenty of experience. This is why solos are generally frowned upon. A team with a full roster of competent units (which is the standard play and one that is not unrealistic) has an inherent advantage over a solo simply because it has more options, more ability to cover ground and space, etc. This is why we make our EXP calculations and general "expected levels" based on an army in which everyone is getting a sahre. Units that need more in a short term to excel or naturally tend to earn more can get a bit of a bump, but we're not going to be saying "unit x can solo efficiently, clearly they are getting 100% of the exp, chain-reclassing multiple times, and winning the universe" on a tier list. Otherwise, why bother comparing units? I'm sure you can go off and make a tier list based on how efficiently units solo the game. It would end up taking into account stats, ability to earn kills, durability, availability, etc, and I'm sure it would be another way to get to a list that is basically going to look very much like this one. That's not the list or the discussion that we're having here though, because that's dull. e: Also Olwen, I'm reporting your next one or two line snarkpost. It's not contributing, so cut it out. e2: also can everyone stop responding to snark with more snark tia

No, he gets Cynthia. Also, try not to be snarky. One-liners like that don't help the discussion, they just distract. Let's keep things focused.

Tharja starts 2 Mag behind Henry, and Henry has C Tomes, meaning Tharja has to pick up 3 mt (either in tome skill or raw magic) somewhere to simply match him at base. Combine that with the fact that Tharja is unlikely to have a magic-boosting support, and Henry has the clear advantage in raw mt during the heads up. e: Tharja has to be in 20 combats in 4 maps in order to hit C tomes. If she's doubling, that means she has to be in 10 non-nosferatu combats in order to hit C Tomes. On average, she'll get that 3 mt in 5 levels, which isn't insane for Tharja, but it also means that a level 15 Tharja can only match a level 12 Henry in raw damage, not even considering supports. 1. It's not that the argument is riding a lot on Sumia, it's that Henry has much better options for supports than Tharja in order to deal with his potential issues. Tharja's best shot at patching up her issues is Libra, who doesn't give Speed, and she has no supports with Dark Flier, the best class possible to leverage her utility. As a result, Tharja's support options are basically "win speed, lose everything else" or "almost be as good at things as henry" with a Libra support. 2. Sumia is already assumed to get Frederick, and it's basically a universal acceptance among people at the moment that Fred hits a wall around Valm, how is it hard to assume that if Henry is in play, he's getting the Dark Flier Sumia support? Fred either has been benched and is no longer in active rotation, or he's still a powerhouse, and he's spending some quality father-daughter time while Sumia has a fling with a dangerous man with a mysterious past? 3. "forced to only two potential pairup partners" is a questionable way of putting it. It's not that Henry only has two supports, it's that Dark Flier is literally the perfect support in every way possible. A flying chauffeur, a huge Speed boost, a power boost, and a non-insignificant res boost. It's very similar to earlygame Sumia, actually. Sure, she "has options" but why pair her with anyone other than Frederick? Likewise, why pair Henry with anyone other than Dark Flier Cordelia or Sumia?

Other way around: She's not exactly in her element while fighting mages, since I'm pretty sure she doesn't ORKO them and they do more damage to her lower Resistance, especially the Sage on the right side.

OOPS Yeah, pardon me. I'll edit it. Chapter 12 is actually pretty good for Tharja, all things considered, though the paladins and promoted enemies kinda make it rough.

Good question. I really don't see Tharja dropping, so I'd honestly say it would be Henry rising.

Can I clear it up the same way that I did the other one? Metadiscussions about the philosophies of the tier list aren't happening. They just aren't. There are a set of standards that everyone seems fine to hold units to in this tier list, and it's entirely unreasonable to expect people to discard all their standards and suddenly conform to yours simply because "i say words and clearly you plebians are too lame to understand or refute my awesome arguments". It happened before, it shit up the tier list, and it went nowhere. Stop. Next one gets a report. Now that we're past that... Changes made: Nowi to bottom of A. Stahl to above Lucina. I still don't feel hot about Chrom dropping to A. Lon'qu to below Sumia/Cordelia. Gaius moved up to below Gregor. Cherche up to above Miriel. Now... I HAVE OPINIONS Henry > Tharja. I am not hot on Frederick dropping out of S, but I do feel that at some point he is a dead-ender of a unit. However, instead of just resigning him as a pocket to Sumia, Sumia can move on to bigger and better things: a support with Henry. If Sumia promotes to Dark Flier, she gives Henry everything he would ever want in a partner: Speed, Magic, and Resistance. This happens to be very important, since it gives Henry a huge leg up in Chapter 14. Chapter 14's Cavaliers have 12 speed. With Henry's base of 9, all it takes is 8 additional Speed to double them. 2 of that comes from a Speed Tonic (likely the only one he'll need for a long time), and 5 of that probably comes from Sumia (Dark Flier gives 3 base, she's probably got around 20 speed at this point for a +2 bonus), meaning he either needs to get a support rank with Sumia or a single point of Speed before Chapter 14. Furthermore, Chapter 13 is when Nosferatu becomes buyable. Once Henry starts doubling Cavaliers, he becomes basically the best unit in Chapter 14. Sumia can fly him onto one of the boats, where he can proceed to tank the entire left boat, which should be enough to get him to 20 for free. Alternately, he can take either of the other boats and leech off a bit less experience, but you know where I'm going here. From there, he can promote into either Dark Knight or Sorceror- Dark Knight has a benefit of movement, more speed, and better pair up bonuses, but Sorceror with Nosferatu is tough to pass up. Either way, Henry has all the tools he needs to get a jump start, since slow, bulky Valm is the perfect place for him to hone his skills and build supports. Since the comparison is inevitable, I'll honestly argue that he's better than Tharja. Tharja has an advantage of 4+5% speed on him, but considering that Speed can be dealt with far more effectively than Tharja's issues, and a Sumia support does more for Henry than any of Tharja's supports can do for her, I'd say they're a push. In terms of availability, it's a lot less clear cut than it seems. Considering how late Tharja arrives (and can feasibly be recruited) in Chapter 9, she really only has four maps up on him: Chapter 10, Chapter 11, Paralogue 4, and Chapter 12. Chapter 10 is a very spread out map with lots of chokepoints, priority targets that you have to aggressively go after, and a boss kill clear on the other side of the map. It's not exactly the dream spot for Tharja. Paralogue 4 is much the same, except it's a bit more chokepoint-heavy. Chapter 11 is just... not great for Tharja. Mages on one side (which she has some relative trouble with given her mediocre Resistance and their good resistance) with a Sage that will smoke her, Mercenaries on the other side that she can't double with a Hero that will smoke her. Gangrel in the middle, and good luck hitting him with Nosferatu. Finally, Chapter 12 is a pretty good map for Tharja, all things considered... if she's still got her Nosferatu. Considering that she really needs it to be effective, and she's been staring at it for three chapters, it's unlikely that she'll have enough gas left in the tank to actually contribute much, and once Nosferatu is gone... that's it. Her usefulness goes from "i own the universe" to "god, i wish i could get close to enemies right about now". Not to mention the fact that before she picks up a higher level support she's still incredibly unreliable, and we're starting to see promoted enemies with Silver around now, which are not good for her. Then Henry shows up. Chapter 13 is a rough chapter for him, but he just needs to pick up a couple kills to get a point of Speed and build the Sumia support, but this isn't a great chapter for Tharja either. Warriors and Snipers hit way too hard for her to deal with, Longbow archers can't be Nosferatu'd, and she can't double Mercenaries. From then, we're on to Valm, where they're both doubling, but Henry is hitting harder, healing more, taking less damage, and seeing 95%+ hitrates with Nosferatu due to his huge blowout in Skill. As they level it just gets worse, since Henry's durability lead lets him go into a good class (Dark Knight) rather than Sorceror, which is only good for Nosferatu. In short, I think that Henry's speed flaw is vastly overhyped considering the huge change in enemy speed that occurs, and his advantages in pretty much every other stat far outweigh Tharja's benefit. e: One last point that I want to hammer home. None of Tharja's desired supports really give her what she needs at the same time., and the one that does (Libra) doesn't give Speed, which means that Henry's far superior Sumia support (or Cordelia if you swing that way, or a dark flier!avatar if one was so inclined) not only equalizes them but gives him a huge lead in every single aspect, including mobility, which more than outweighs Tharja's 3 maps of mediocre performance.

Goodness gracious me, stop arguing with Olwen. I'm not taking anything he says seriously, so you don't have to worry about debunking his brand of bullshit. This is all I have time for, but I have some changes to make and some ~opinions~ to dispense soon, so expect a post from me. Carry on! (p.s.: galeforce is bad and you should feel bad, the only person who might ever get it is sumia and that's if she goes dark flier to support henry at which point she's a pocket unit to someone worthwhile and galeforce doesnt matter)

No, that'll just make you easier to ignore. I'd like to wrap up discussion on the points I raised before we move on.

Being unkillable because you barely take damage >>> being mostly unkillable because you can heal it off except when you miss or against high res units. One is reliable, one is not. That's a tier difference if I ever saw one.

@Horace: Two things. 1: Actually, I have a playthrough where I'm testing an idea that I had before. Specifically, getting Sumia x Frederick to S for Cynthia, then promoting Sumia to Dark Flier, using Sumia x Henry and Cynthia x Frederick. Dark Flier is an incredible support for a mage, especially a speed and res weak one like Henry, and Frederick being able to lend Cynthia support to get her going is really nice. 2: There are three different top tier male speed supports for Nowi- Lon'qu, Gaius, and Gregor. It's highly unlikely that she will miss all three of them.

So, if I can boil down thoughts on the list a bit, here are the changes that I'd like to see happen. Nowi to bottom of A. This won't be a landing spot, but she is pretty much insane with that Gregor support, and her main issue can be patched up easily. Stahl to bottom of S. His durability makes him the best candidate on early maps to simply charge forward and soften up enemies. With a Kellam support his durability is insane, he ORKOs with a dual strike, and if the doesn't kill, he leaves plenty of cleanup for the rest of the team. He has great support bonuses in either of his promotions, and if he can pick up a speed support like Cordelia he can become an amazing offensive force as well. Sumia and Cordelia... not going anywhere. Sumia has a serious problem with her support list- the only good one is Sumia x Frederick, which is quite good but hits a serious wall at some point, and basically has her as a glorified support bot for someone whose future prospects are shaky at best. It's a good pair up that benefits them both, but the lack of versatility just hurts her for me. Lon'qu has a lot of useful pair up possibilities, notably Sully, Panne, Cherche, or even Nowi, He also has a Vaike support he can lean on until either Panne or Cherche shows up, or he can just buddy up with Kellam for the huge Defense boost. He provides more benefit to more characters, and has a better shot later game, both as a pocket character (armorslayer/wyrmslayer for effective bonuses, or even bows if he goes assassin) and as a straight up offensive point. As an aside, I also disagree with either Sumia or Cordelia being above Anna too. Gaius should move up. His start is pretty awful, but he has an amazing support (+Spe, +Mv? Yes please) and like Lon'qu, he has a great support roster that not only hugely benefits him, but that he also gives a significant boost to. It feels really odd to have him below Gregor, especially since he shows up at the same time as Panne, with arguably better support bonuses, and the utility of opening chests. Attaching Locktouch to a powerful offensive unit seems useful for chapters with annoying to reach chests like Ch12 (i think? whichever one has Gangrel), or Paralogue 4. I can see Cherche > Vaike. Cherche has way more support options to deal with her issues (Lon'qu, Gregor, Gaius, etc), and Vaike's shitty start makes it really hard for him to get off the ground. Anything else? e: If Anna can get to 10 (or even 15 for Acrobat) and then reclass to Sage (Staves) or Dark Knight (mount + horses + def), she becomes a serious offensive powerhouse. That tends to be around the time Second Seals are buyable, and before then she still has Levin Swords or just regular old steel / slayers,

ok so apparently subscriptions to threads got poofed in the board swap and i didnt notice A couple things. If Fred goes down... then to where? I'm still not sure how I feel about Sumia / Cordelia > Lon'qu. They give largely the same bullshit pair up bonuses, but flying suuuuuuuucks in this game because every damn mission is jam packed with assholes carrying bows. I do like the support list for Cordelia a bit more (not Sumia, christ why did she get jack shit for partners), but I'm not super sold on her in general. Vaike > Miriel seems fine to me. Simply having Inigo exist and then actually recruiting him is such a pain in the ass for so little payoff that I just dont see him anywhere else other than the bottom of the list.

I just wanted to say that a 5 turn of Chapter 11 allows you to get the speedwing. It's 2 turns over the minimum of 3, but you get a Speedwing, an early Armorslayer, and some tasty bonus EXP since the Speedwing carrier is a Hero. I wouldn't say you're unlikely to fight it, you just have to stick around slightly longer in order to do so.

These posts confuse me. There's plenty of discussion going on between sane people, and then every once in a while someone goes "this tier list's restrictions displease me, change them so that i may discuss on my terms, oh also i won't say anything useful about what i'm looking for." It's wearing a bit thin. On topic, I agree with Chrom down, but more notably, I want Stahl to go up to bottom of S. I think he's vastly underrated- with Frederick in his pocket he can gain a ton of levels in Chapter 2, and then in Chapter 3 he completes his brotp with Kellam, a combination that is damn near uncrackable for a very long time. By the time his Speed actually gets to be a drag, he can pick up a Cordelia support, which combine with Tonics to give him the speed he needs to stay competitive. By endgame, he can elect to stay as-is or swap to Swordmaster if he wants, In a playthrough I've been doing, he has managed to be the highest level on the team (even higher than Avatar) in a fairly brisk run of the game, and has been incredibly clutch. Thoughts?

Sully > Panne it is.

Great Lord (F) vs. Paladin is a rough comparison. Great Lord wins by 2 Skl and 3 Spe, but loses everything else pretty badly. 5 HP, 1 Str, 2 Def/Res, 2 Move, and more notably, pretty solid skills in Discipline and Defender, with Aegis as cake. Cavalier also happens to have the same growths, but with +5% HP, and +5% additional Res growth on promotion. Getting out of E Lances without Discipline is pretty rough in general. The only thing that Great Lord really has going for it is Rapier / Noble Rapier, but you don't get your first Noble Rapier until damn late in the game, and you can make up for a lack of Rapier with Armorslayer / Beastkiller. Paladin also has way better pair up bonuses as well. +2 Str / Skl / Spe / Def vs +4 Spe / Lck means that at A/S support, you're getting +4 Str/Skl/Def vs 2 Spe and a whole mess of largely useless Luck. Great Lord isn't a bad class, but considering that both people that get access to it also get access to Paladin, I can't really see why you'd want to dally around in it for very long.

Chrom always passes down Aether and promoting / spending 15 levels in Great Lord for Rightful King is sketchy at best when all you have proc-wise is Aether and you already have your xx/5 skill. I personally prefer Veteran passed down, reclassing directly into Cavalier for Lance access and Discipline. Great Knight and Paladin are both great classes for Lucina, and by the time she shows up we have a third Second Seal, IIRC.

I'm fine with discussing in this thread, but we need a baseline that isn't you. e: More for objectivity, not trying to say your baseline is inaccurate or lacking worth. "oops"