aku chi

All you need to do to make Lyre usable is 13 levels of Bexp and a Satori Sign. Even with her crappy base Str, Rend OHKOs just about everything (78 Atk). Lyre will have 40 transformed Spd at this point, so she'll double everything. New info coming in suggests that Rend's activation may only be Spd/2%, but that still results in a 36% ORKO chance (more with Adept or Resolve). So, Lyre can be used to some effect in NM, but so can every unit (though Fiona is still poor with all of the DB's Bexp).

I have not argued that Ranulf needs to take any Bexp to be valuable. Nobody has argued that it is wise to give Ranulf 4 levels of Bexp in 3-4. Ranulf is valuable in Part 3 at base. If we want him to be particularly useful in Part 4, we can Bexp-Blossom slowplay him 4 levels in the latter half of Part 3 and give him Rend. If not, he's still a small help in 4-2 at base. The number of units you can safely throw into 7-8 units is tiny (just Haar, Gatrie, and Mordecai - but all are vulnerable to Sages), so Ranulf is hardly alone in this limitation. He's pretty damn close to it in Part 3. He has more concrete durability than Haar and Gatrie (plus decent Res) and more avoid than Mia (sans supports). So maybe Ranulf will need to be staff-healed once on some chapters. Maybe. Ranulf can sustain 3 enemy phase attacks for 7 turns (in other words, the whole chapter). Ranulf can also sustain up to 7 attacks on an enemy phase, untransform and grass the next turn (taking a turn off), and retransform the following turn at at least 27 gauge. Still, Ranulf's 36 base Atk is better than what the likes of Mia and Nephenee can realistically reach in Part 3 with Steel forges. It even matches Oscar's tier 2 1-range attack. And Ranulf can put Adept to use at least as well as Mia and Nephenee, turning his many 3HKOs into ORKOs (51% chance at base). And if you actually use Ranulf, he will reach S-Strike in the tail end of Part 3, boosting his Atk to a respectable 41. An Energy Drop also boosts Ranulf's Atk by 4, which is more than can be said for Mia, Nephenee, and Oscar. You were criticizing Ranulf's enemy phase, because he can't safely engage 4+ enemies per turn. What restrains you from criticizing Soren and Calill for not being able to safely engage 2-3 enemies on enemy phase due to poor durability? I'll engage in this straw man for a moment: so what? Six Bexp levels still won't enable Soren or Calill to safely engage more than 3 enemies on enemy phase. Archsage performance is pretty irrelevant for Soren and Calill (they take a Master Crown just so that they have a chance to survive 3-4 enemies on EP in Part 4, while failing to double and occasionally failing to 2HKO (especially Calill)). ~70% of all enemies are 1-range locked. I'd prefer Ranulf's ability to 2RKO every 1-range enemy and ORKO some of those enemies (especially with Adept) to Soren and Calill's inability to double and occasional inability to 2RKO. Yes, I'm criticizing a unit that can take 15 levels and still be flat out worse than Ranulf at base. Nephenee needs to be ~level 7 to double Halberdiers and Warriors in 3-2. That isn't happening in HM, unless we give Nephenee all of our Part 2 Bexp. Nepehenee needs to be ~level 9 to double Halberdiers and Warriors in 3-5. Ranulf doubles even Swordmasters throughout all of Part 3 at base. As for Atk, Ranulf's 36 base Atk may not be great, but it's much better than Nephenee's. Nephenee needs to be ~level 18 or 10/1 before she can match Ranulf's base Atk with a Steel Lance forge. By the time Nephenee reaches that level, if she ever does, Ranulf will have S-Strike anyway. Ranulf may have no 1-2 range, but he can outdamage Javelin Nephenee with Quickclaw! Nephenee's base 21 Atk with a Javelin is so pitiful that even Lyre out-damages her. A level 7 Nephenee with a Short Spear isn't tons better (ooh, 27 Atk with imperfect Hit). She still deals less damage than a crappy Crossbow (and Quickclaw Ranulf). Even with a Javelin forge in 3-8, Nephenee struggles to ORKO Sages or 2RKO physical units. So forgive me if I'm not impressed by Nephenee's 1-2 range combat. Now attempt an argument that doesn't rely on the Bexp straw-man. How is Boyd (N) ever doubling in HM? And if he isn't doubling, how is he ever out-damaging Ranulf? And if he doesn't have better combat, how is he a more valuable unit?

And what of Soren and Calill, who can't come close to surviving the number of enemies needed to deplete Ranulf's gauge? Or how about Nephenee, who has poor durability, is unlikely to exceed Ranulf's Atk at 1-range (and has pitiful 1-2 range combat), and needs resources to double? Or Boyd (N), who fails to double even with a Speedwings and has durability issues to boot? These four units have serious flaws that, IMO, exceed Ranulf's.

C13 is a de facto rout chapter. Ike and Soren can participate in the rout. It's tough to 2HKO Schaeffer, but Soren can pull it off. The Ike support can help. Not everybody has a max-Mag Ike, silly. Killing Ballista operators to keep Reyson safe is important in a variety of 4-turn clears. Getting Soren in range to siege Petrine by turn 4 is also possible. "I'm not making this up; all of this is from personal experience." Well, it should be a seize chapter, considering that Ike needs to enter that door to reach the BK, but IS messed up. Anyways, there's plenty of chokepoint Generals for Soren and Ike to help clear in C27. There's also treasures (including Resolve) to ... liberate. Considering that you're just using Mia and Ilyana as enemy bait, their combat hardly matters. Any combat after turn 1 is irrelevant to the clear. The laguz are scattered about, so Ilyana isn't likely to be in range with her support. Soren actually has an easier time here, because Ike can move almost anywhere before he's rescued. Again, all combat after turn 1 is irrelevant. This is the last chapter, so it doesn't even matter if Ilyana, Mia, or Reyson die on turn 1 of enemy phase. Big Picture: Anytime Ilyana is just receiving an offensive advantage from her support is a time when Soren has more Atk without any supports at all. Anytime Soren is in range with his Ike support is just another advantage for Soren. The defensive benefits from Ilyana's support are relevant in vanishingly few situations. Supports are almost a complete non-issue in Soren vs. Ilyana. This is my last post on the subject. Let's talk about something relevant, instead.

Corrections: - Ike and Soren can do plenty in C13. - There's plenty to do in C20. Ike and Soren can help get Rescue or Smite and Soren can siege Shiharam if he has C Fire or we have Bolting. - In C22, Ike can support Soren for his siege contributions against Schaeffer. - In C23, Ike can at least support Soren for a OHKO on a Ballista operator on turn 1. We might also want to ferry Soren forward to clear out subsequent Ballista operators and/or siege Petrine. - C27 is not a seize map. Hypocrisy: You seem fond of pointing out the chapters where Ike and Soren aren't doing anything, yet you include chapters 26, 28, and Endgame as chapters where Ilyana and a Swordmaster can take advantage of their support. Be consistent. Supports aren't terribly relevant for Soren and Ilyana, but if anything, Soren has the advantage in this department.

Justify this. Ike absolutely wants to support Soren (at least up to B). It is his only +Atk option until B Reyson (C26), who he has even more difficulty staying near. Ike clearly would appreciate +Atk, considering that he has plenty of durability with an Oscar or Titania support and comes up short of 2HKOing frequently. If Soren is being trained, an Ike&Soren B Support seems like a no brainer. With that support, Soren leads Ilyana in avoid. But neither can be safely exposed to multiple enemies on enemy phase, so this seems pretty irrelevant. Edit: Siege tomes really become useful starting in C20.

If training Soren costs us anything we care about, we don't train Soren in that way. That's what I mean when I say that there is no negative utility. If we only have Soren run and hide in C4 and C6, and only contribute when it helps in C7, Soren can still reach level 6 by the end of C8 thanks to C5 and C8. So Soren is at least level 6 in the C9 base just like Ilyana, at which point he can be trained just like Ilyana, except he's a little better to start and a good deal better later on.

Good to know. One doesn't save [turns] in C5 and C8. Oscar and Boyd aren't ORKOing in C5 or C7 (and may not in C8 depending on how much Bexp we give them). So Soren is going to be teaming up to kill with these guys anyway. The only difference, if we intend to train him, is that we'll try to give Soren the kill.

Tornado is a complete non-factor for Soren: Soren isn't reaching A Wind. Elthunder has more Mt than Tornado against most foes. Soren can generally 2HKO all fliers with Elwind. Soren prefers to use Thunder anyway, because a forged Thunder is his best weapon and he wants to work towards wielding Bolting. But Ilyana's weapon levels are no advantage over Soren. Soren gets D Thunder with promotion (before which he isn't even tempted to use the heavy Elthunder) and can use C17-3 to work towards C Thunder in time for C22's Bolting. So Ilyana's faster C Thunder is only relevant if you get the C16 Bolting (an inefficient treasure). Thoron is nice, but by the time Ilyana can wield it (if ever), Soren can out-damage her with Elthunder. Rexbolt is only available for Endgame, and thus a non-factor (generously assuming that Ilyana can ever reach S Thunder in an efficient playthrough). Meanwhile, Soren has early Elwind use and an effortless C Wind for Blizzard use. Also, I disagree with Life Admiral that level 8 in C8 is plausible for Soren in an efficient run. Soren is pretty much deadweight in C4 and C6. Soren can help a little in C7 and has guaranteed combat in C5 and C8, but this will likely bring him around level 6-7 by the end of C8, at which point he's similar to Ilyana. Yes, Soren is just plain better than Ilyana, but his leads aren't massive. Ilyana can do almost everything that Soren can with only a little more resources. I think it's completely reasonable that Ilyana be in the same tier as Soren. On the other hand, Aeine's LTC run demonstrates that Tormod's +2 mov over the other Sages is not essential, even if it is often helpful. Considering that Tormod > Soren seemed to be decided based on (unsubstantiated) claims that Tormod could reach siege targets that Soren could not, I submit that that move was made in error. Also, I've demonstrated ways in which Soren and Ilyana can make major LTC contributions in C15 and minor contributions in other chapters before Tormod is available. Soren > Tormod. Edit: Ilyana's Thunder magic lead is almost entirely irrelevant - and offset by Soren's Wind lead. Negative utility does not exist; Soren's only "cost" in his pre-Ilyana chapters is taking some Cexp in C5 and C8 that might have gone to Boyd, Oscar, or Ike - a minor cost which can be completely offset by his positive contributions in C7. So Ilyana and Soren start C9 on even footing, at which point Soren is just plain better. He has more Atk, more AS, Adept, and similar durability. With generic tomes, Soren is, at worst, slightly better than Ilyana. With a Thunder forge, Soren has noticeably better 1-2 range combat. Soren > Ilyana is abundandly clear.

Nicely done. I'm especially impressed that you were able to 5-turn C7, 4-turn C21, and 3-turn C27-1 while getting Resolve. I'm cross-referencing your turncounts with this work-in-progress run of mine. C3 can be 2-turned, but not if you want to recruit Marcia. C9 can be 4-turned without recruiting Marcia and otherwise 6-turned with a promoted Mia or a promoted Boyd (Boyd can take-drop Ike for an additional square of movement on turn 5). Though it might be impossible to pull that off and still maintain a C11 3-turn clear without C10's Stealth Bexp. I think C25 can be 2-turned, but perhaps not without Jill and/or Haar. So your playthrough might be as good as it gets in a single run. I'll be using your turncounts here as benchmarks when I continue my aforementioned run. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to beat your C18 clear with transformed Boots Reyson, but the rest of your clears are close to optimal, which is very impressive in a single run. Edit: I'd be interested in your C16 4-turn clear strategy, assuming you got the Fullguard. I've been able to 4-turn C16 in a variety of ways by rescue-take-dropping both Mordecai and Muarim (with Titania, Oscar, Kieran, and either Jill, Makalov, or Astrid). It looks like you could only rescue-take-drop Mordecai forward, so I'm curious how you pulled it off.

A good story is coherent and plausible. (I can't believe nobody has mentioned this yet.) Being unique is a plus, but is hardly necessary. A good plot also has good pacing: it keeps the player engaged all the way through by neither providing all of the information up front nor witholding information critical to understanding the story. A good plot avoids monotony but also avoids jumping all over the place for no artistic reason.

Mia (N) under Oscar (T) was the assumption I was under. I already linked the Mia (N) vs. Janaff comparison, and it isn't hard to extrapolate to Ulki (N) > Mia (N). And Oscar (T) vs. the Hawks is an easy comparison if anybody wants to undertake it at a later point. As for Mia (T): she can be separated from Mia (N), but does she deserve to be? With minimal Bexp use, Mia (N) is going to cap Str in tier 2 anyway, so Mia (N) and Mia (T) have nearly identical Part 4s. So how valuable in an extra 2 Atk (and a little more durability) in Part 3? One might argue that if Ulki (N) > Mia (N), should not Ulki (T) > Mia (T), since extra Atk is primarily what the two have going for them with transfers and Ulki (T) has more and isn't inhibited by caps like Mia (T).

He doesn't need the Speedwings. Assuming a Crown and 3 levels from 3-8, 3-10, 3-11, and 3-E, Oscar (T) averages 28 Spd going into Part 4. If he winds up short of that, a single Bexp level will suffice. 28 Spd doubles almost everything in 4-1 and 4-2. With another 3 levels in 4-1, Oscar (T) can have 30 Spd entering 4-4 (if he goes that path). This doubles half of the Halberdiers and Warriors. A single Bexp level will bring almost all of them into doubling range. Oscar is a poor candidate for 4-E, but it isn't difficult for him to get the 32 AS needed to double every enemy in 4-E-1. With Bexp slowplay at tier 2 to cap Str, Oscar (T) can have just enough Str entering 4-E-1 to 2HKO all of the Sages (and Bishops) with a Javelin forge. But Part 4 is where Mia actually has some advantages over Oscar, so it's injust to stop the comparison at Part 3 (which Oscar (T) wins handily if he gets the 3-6 Master Crown). Also, if you want to argue Mia < Oscar (T), you'll need to consider Mia (T), not just Mia (N). As for moving Boyd (T) up, I'd like to see a comparison with Nephenee (T) or Shinon first. I think Boyd (T) has a pretty good case over Nephenee (T), but I've felt that both Nephenee (N) and Nephenee (T) should move down for a while now.

Shinon also leads Rolf in Res and HP in every realistic scenario (where the two are given similar resources). A big "if". And with Shinon being able to Bexp slowplay for Str in tier 2, it takes a long while for Rolf to get any Str advantage over Shinon (if he gets one at all). Shinon leads Rolf by 4 Str, 5 Spd, and 7 Def. That is not close. Especially when that 5 Spd is the difference between doubling nothing and doubling everything but Swordmasters.

If Mia (N) moves below Oscar (T), what should happen with Mia (T)? That +2 Str is nothing to sneeze at. It won't affect Mia's Part 4, but it certainly helps her Part 3 (especially since the additional Skl and Spd makes it even easier for her to Bexp for Str and Def). I think Mia (T) < Reyson is an easy argument to make, but her next "easy" comparison is with Ulki (T).

And why is that? Perhaps because "turns saved" in a LTC playthrough is not the metric we want to use to evaluate units in this tier list. Perhaps you misunderstood Anouleth's point. His point was that dondon lacked not only trained Jill, but a trained Haar, and every other unit. If dondon had a well trained Haar in 4-P and 4-3, he would have gotten better turncounts and so the marginal value of a trained Jill is lower than the subtraction indicates. Likewise, if dondon had any units with growths, he could have completed 3-12 faster than he did. Jill doesn't "save" 5 turns in 3-12 in a playthrough with growths.

This just demonstrates that you're still missing the point. We're not talking about what Jill can do with those resources. We're talking about what other units could do if we didn't give them to Jill. The opportunity cost of giving the resources to Jill. What Volug, Nolan, and whomever else can do with those resources that they cannot do without.

It's pretty impossible to get Haar Str or Spd transfers. It's also difficult (and unrewarding) to get Titania a Str transfer because she caps her tier 2 Str anyways (so she can't exceed 35 Atk with a Hand Axe at tier 2). Likewise, Gatrie caps tier 2 Hand Axe Atk at 36. Giving Titania (T) a Speedwings is also wasteful; she has no difficulty capping her tier 2 Spd. I was making this comparison at 3-2, hence no third tier consideration. One lucky unit can get a snazzy boost to his/her 1-2 range performance starting in 3-4, of course. Edit: Also, Haar's tier 2 Spd cap is 24. Man, that was a lot of mistakes.

(*sigh* I often wish that an introduction to economics were a mandatory course in general highschool education.) Consider a theoretical unit called Jill2. Jill2 may be recruited in place of Jill in 1-6's base for no cost. She has is identical to Jill except that she has +2 Def, +2 Str, +7 HP, and can promote to tier 2 at any time with no cost. Jill2 receives Jill's transfers, if any exist. However, Jill2 cannot be given Leonardo's Dracoshield, the 1-2 Energy Drop, the 1-4 Seraph Robe, or a Master Seal. Basically, Jill2 is just like a Jill that has received the aforementioned resources, except that those resources remain to be used on other units. Is Jill2 more valuable than Jill? Of course she is. She is just as good, except that now you have a bunch of valuable resources that can be given to other units. In fact, the opportunity cost of Jill taking the aforementioned resources is precisely how much more valuable Jill2 is than Jill.

Level 13 Ike (T) w Wind Edge - 33 Atk, 135 Hit, 26 AS Level 13 Ike w Wind Edge - 31 Atk, 132 Hit, 24 AS Level 14 Haar w Hand Axe (and Speedwings) - 34 Atk, 136 Hit, 23 AS Level 17 Titania w Hand Axe (and Speedwings) - 34-35 Atk, 134 Hit, 23-24 AS Level 12 Gatrie w Hand Axe - 35 Atk, 123 Hit, 21 AS Level 10 Boyd (T) w Hand Axe (and Speedwings) - 34 Atk, 126 Hit, 23 AS Level 14 Oscar (T) w Short Spear - 33 Atk, 124 Hit, 24 AS Level 14 Oscar w Short Spear - 31 Atk, 120 Hit, 22 AS Level 10 Boyd w Hand Axe - 32 Atk, 126 Hit, 19 AS

Of course. If we consider Nolan's performance when he receives Leonardo's Dracoshield, we must also consider the opportunity cost of that resource being given to Jill or Volug or Aran (whomever makes the (next) best use of it). But Jill's optimal resource bundle is unusually valuable. If Jill performs best when given all of those resources I listed before, Jill should be penalized for the opportunity costs associated with all of those resources. Contrast this with the Black Knight, who requires absolutely zero resources to provide his optimal utility. Considering that this is an efficiency tier list, we should be considering how valuable each unit is in an efficiency playthrough. How well a unit can contribute to an efficincy playthrough when given their optimal resource bundle is an important part of that consideration. Also important is the opportunity costs associated with that unit being given their optimal resource bundle. Completing the game swiftly and reliably.

Kindly re-read the following paragraph. And then research opportunity cost, if needed.

Kindly remove the word "need" from your debating lexicon. The aforementioned resources are certainly valuable when given to non-Jill recipients. Nolan is an excellent candidate for Leonardo's Dracoshield - improving his durability from 1-1 and beyond and making it possible for him to endure two S-Strike Tiger attacks in 3-6. The 1-2 Energy Drop is great for Volug. It improves his halfshifted Atk by 3, letting him grab more 2HKOs and even the occasional Mage OHKO. That same Energy Drop provides +4 Atk in 3-6 and beyond, which Volug needs to 2HKO tougher enemies. The 1-4 Seraph Robe is valuable on Nolan or Aran (if trained), albeit not to the same extent as Jill. While we have the opportunity to get a few Master Seals, not all of them are efficient to obtain. Any tier 1 unit we train can benefit from a Master Seal (Nolan, and perhaps Aran or Edward). Ilyana also benefits from a Master Seal. And if we can actually get Leonardo to level 10 (not at all trivial), he also benefits from a Master Seal. Rafiel's Seraph Robe is clearly the least valuable resource of the bunch, but even it can be beneficial when given to units other than Jill (it can even be ferried to the GM's for Titania or Oscar if the DB doesn't need it). For some of these resources in certain scenarios, Jill may be the optimal recipient. But that does not mean that giving those resources to Jill is costless. We pay an opportunity cost equal to the value of those resources going to the next best recipient. That opportunity cost cannot be discounted when evaluating Jill's performance.

But clearing 4-E-3 in one turn is not something that any 'ol team can pull off, so 2-turn clears should also be considered (where maybe Kurthnaga can be helpful?).