Chiki

I think we're going off topic, so it's best if we stop here. You can make a tier list like that, if you want.

I thought we were talking about LTC tier lists. :p

Oh, okay. I seem to have misunderstood your statement. Assuming LTCs, it's inefficient to get the Energy Drop. She only gets the Master Seal, Seraph Robe and Dracoshield. Tauroneo needs a Luna proc too, so that chapter is RNG reliant no matter what. All of those except 1-7 were down to Jill being trained (and for 1-7 she needed to be promoted). In Part 4, Jill needs a certain amount of might to one round enemies. In 4-P, Jill is needed for the eastern enemies because Skrimir cannot solo the 2-range people quickly enough in 2 turns. Secondly, Jill has to be able to kill the Steel Longbow archer in one round. In 4-E-1, Jill has to be able to one-round Lekain with Parity, and generally have enough might to one round all sorts of enemies. So it's 16 turns, and she is worth more than Edward. I checked your logs. Since you took longer, you also had more units available to use. I only had a few trained units. Part 4 was especially difficult for me since I had only a handful of units.

And I said the cost is minor . I think you're the one not reading my posts. Here, let me bold the important bits for you:

http://serenesforest...showtopic=33035 I have the proof. If you want to prove me wrong though, feel free by playing the game and attempting the playthrough yourself. Leonardo and Micaiah are helpful for 1-P as well, as I'm sure you know, so no, it's not exactly a solo. Secondly, Jill CAN basically solo with transfers and resources the same way Edward does. In my 8-turn 3-6 strategy, Jill Beastfoed everything to death while the partner units got a few kills in the east, with the help of ZIhark, Volug and Sothe. Jill soloed 3-12 with the exception of pegasus knights. Jill soloed 3-13 with no one's help at all. Jill CAN take most of 4-P by herself with forged Hand Axes. Jill is as useful as Edward is in 3-12 and 3-13.. the lowest possible in 3-13 is 4 turns without her if I recall correctly. Secondly, it's not as simple as you suggest. We would have to train Nolan in an LTC playthrough to get lower turns on these chapters, and training Nolan would take A LOT of turns. So Jill can beat that 14 turn benchmark easily. It's not like Volug, Sothe and ZIhark are enough in an LTC playthrough. You have no idea how useful a second flier with a Hand Axe is. I agree Edward should go high up in a hypothetical tier list, but not as high as Jill.

Sorry I said she can't carry him. I was supposed to say she can't retreat far enough to safety without 9 move. It's impossible to get 179 turns without Jill, if that is what you're suggesting? If you want to. Uh...... which is exactly why she should get those stat boosters. Because she can make the most of them and contribute the most to a low turn count. I think you know nothing about this game at all in terms of LTCs. I can only assume you've never done a low turn count playthrough. Only for 1-P, 1-2 and 1-4. Jill cuts turns from 1-6, 1-7 (my 4-turn strategy), 1-8, 1-E, 3-6, 3-12, 3-13, 4-P, 4-3 and 4-E-1.

I understand what opportunity cost is perfectly, but you're avoiding my point. I'm saying that: 1. The opportunity cost is minor, because I have proven with my playthrough that it's perfectly possible to get the lowest possible turncounts without giving Nolan, Volug, etc. any resources at all. The cost only exists because of reliability. Volug with an Energy Drop has an easier time (just easier, not impossible) 4-turning 1-8. Nolan has an easier time taking hits with the Dracoshield. But they do nothing at all to shorten the turncount. 2. Giving Nolan, Volug etc. these resources decreases your turncounts in exchange for reliability. They should be the ones penalized even more than Jill should be. I'm not saying that Jill shouldn't be penalized--it's why she should be in high tier, even below Volug, Titania and Ike. I'm saying that the penalties ought to be minimal because the cost associated with giving Jill these resources is almost trivial. Yes, Nolan can reliably take attacks, and Volug can get more kills, but they do nothing at all to cut your turncounts. Attempting to avoid these two points and instead lecturing me on an economic term in a thinly-veiled attempt to make me look stupid doesn't make you right.

Ike(N)'s 2-range is pretty bad, no denying that. This isn't the tier list thread, so I have the liberty to list transfers as well. Just some really quick, maybe slightly flawed calculations: Level 14 Haar(T) w Hand Axe (and Speedwings) - 36 Atk, 140 Hit, 25 AS Level 17 Titania(T) w Hand Axe (and Speedwings) - 36-37 Atk, 138 Hit, 25 AS Level 12 Gatrie(T) w Hand Axe - 37 Atk, 123 Hit, 23 AS Oh, Haar is likely to take the 3-3 Master Crown, so there's an extra 2 might. Level 1 Haar(T) w Hand Axe (and Speedwings) - 38 Atk, 144 Hit, 27 AS

Jill can basically solo Part 3 DB by herself with these resources, and get the lowest possible turncount so is there really any opportunity cost (other than some difficulty early on, due to not, for example, giving the Dracoshield to Nolan) towards giving Jill everything? The opportunity cost actually seems very minor. Jill contributes the most towards efficiency out of anyone in the DB. I think this is pretty much inexorable. So, assuming that we give Nolan and Volug resources as well, such as the Energy Drop, Dracoshield and Seraph Robe, this contributes negatively to efficiency and Nolan and Volug should be the ones who are penalized for the opportunity costs associated with all of those resources. Opportunity cost is actually an argument for Jill rather than against Jill.. Because giving those items to Nolan and Volug is a waste for chapters like 3-12 and 3-13 and Part 4.

Lol, so what if they're there? They still suck and are basically useless.

Doesn't that argument go both ways? The opportunity cost against Jill cannot be discounted when evaluating Nolan's, Volug's etc. performances as well. So the only thing we should really be thinking about is how to get the lowest turn count. Also, I'm still wondering about the definition of efficiency here.

Jill is easily the best recipient of the Master Seal because it allows her to carry Tauroneo around, making a 6-turn of 1-6 easily possible. I think it's pretty much undeniable that Jill would be the best person to receive that. I think giving Jill resources and such depends on the definition of efficiency here--do you mean the lowest possible turncount? If so, then giving anyone but Jill resources is asinine.

What do you even mean by "main DB/DBs"? Secondly, giving Jill those resources guarantees a 13 turn clear of Part 3 DBs.

The main problem with using Beastfoe Nolan is that he's extremely difficult to train on hard mode (assuming efficiency, of course). He becomes almost useless after 1-5. Awful durability, poor AS, etc. Even Edward does better in 1-4. Without Beastfoe Nolan, I'd say it's impossible to 8-turn 3-6 with Paragon Jill. This is the main issue I am raising now. No one else needs those items, though. Also, giving Nolan those items is asinine when giving Jill those items instead could help her clear 3-12 and 3-13 more effectively.

They have 3 less might and 10 less hit than Hand Axes. They're garbage.

8/10. Low res, no mount, no flight, stuck to swords for a good portion of the game.

I honestly found it impossible to 8-turn without Beastfoe Jill, but maybe that was because I lacked Nolan.

To be honest, I'm not a big fan of Nolan, either, if you couldn't tell already. He's very difficult to raise on an efficiency playthrough (hard mode in general, honestly), which is why I don't like the idea of Beastfoe Nolan, personally, and would rather give it to Jill.

I think we're going off-topic with this discussion, as it's more about a strategy on a single chapter rather than anything else, so I think it may be best to stop here. Let us assume that we do use Beastfoe Nolan, though. Assuming Jill(T) with resources gets more levels with Beastfoe as she, imo, gets more kills, she can easily 3-turn 3-12 and 2-turn 3-13 without much difficulty. Nolan, Volug, etc. become totally irrelevant for 3-12 and 3-13 because all you need is Jill (well, her and Tauroneo, Leonardo for a pegasus KO and maybe some people to shove rocks and help kill the pegasus knights, but Sothe and ZIhark can fill those roles). Just giving Jill your resources for all these chapters gives you a perfectly reliable way to get the most efficient possible turncount for DB part 3. I still think Jill(T) should be at least above Mia in the High Tier.

It's perfectly possible to find other places where you can kill an average of 3 units per turn until you level up enough to be able to take them on by yourself (assuming Jill gets, say, 7 levels in this chapter, after around 4-5 of those she gets, for example, 39 HP and 24 def, which allows her to take 3-4 enemies per turn reliably during the later parts of the map. But those laguz won't even be in her range because of the fog of war, and low move. She won't even be able to see them, so she can't kill them. Assuming Jill is flying, how can Micaiah reach her with Physic? You said the first few turns. 9 turns and dropping the BK are irrelevant.

Since the laguz can't move much in the swamp anyway, they won't be moving far at all. It's 100% reliable, at least in my experience. Totally depends on the kind of tigers and cats you fight, really, so the situation you suggest is not as likely as you think it is. Even if it is, all you have to do is spend more time positioning your units more carefully in exchange for a lower turn count. That is, after all, the point of an efficiency run. It's not likely when you're in the swamp. Transformed laguz can only move a single square, and untransformed 2, iirc. So Jill won't be getting player phase action at all. Anyway, she'd rather spend that time healing with a Concoction. Extremely optimistic estimate. Transformed laguz have 1 move in the swamp, while untransformed have 2. Your own units have 2 as well, so there's likely not going to be too much combat in the first few turns.

Positioning for cats. Read my debate with dondon. IIRC tigers get stronger the deeper you go in, so Jill may be ready to take them on by the time she's leveled up. Also: Brave Axe, if nothing else; while it is risky, it does prove that Jill has other options. Since Jill is one rounding everything during the enemy phase anyway, Jill doesn't have many options during the player phase. Remember: enemies don't have much move in the swamp. Jill is getting barely any player phase action at all. Also, it's half as likely that the enemy you might want to kill during the player phase will be a cat.

I've been arguing for Jill(T) since the beginning, but I concede that she should have Paragon if she doesn't have transfers. Promotion? Is it really that hard to explore the map with a flying unit a few times before playing? Why assume the player is incompetent? On turn 1, you can get attacked by 3 cats and 1 tiger if you put Jill on a specific tile to the north. On turn 2, if you go east, you can get attacked by 2 tigers and a cat. Use a concoction to heal. Turn 3, I think there are 2 tigers and a couple cats if you go northwest from there. Turn 5 or so, get Lethe to suicide on you for a free level-up. You get the idea. I wish I could record this or something, but I don't have a save file, so... Since it's a fog of war and you're killing every enemy on the enemy phase anyway, you're not going to have much player phase action, so it is irrelevant. 9 units start near you out of the 40 that you need to kill? Lol, even you have to see the fallacy there.

One per player phase, since you have no heron. Nothing compared to Beastfoe. So, transfers + promotion + a single str level is unrealistic? Lol. She still one rounds those tigers, with just 20 speed, so I fail to see the big deal, even with the low strength.

I meant on my post that Jill is 3HKOed by 39 atk tigers, so you are just proving my point. The trick is positioning Jill correctly and finding out where the cats are located, in order to avoid the tigers. At most, you should get attacked by 1 or 2 tigers at the enemy phase. Once Jill gets enough levels, she'll have better durability so you can position her more reliably. As I said above, you have to position Jill carefully where tigers aren't abundant. Also, Jill isn't going to get 2 kills per turn with Paragon. She can't one-round anything, and it's silly to assume they'll go for Jill during the enemy phase. Also, Jill can kill Lethe for extra exp with ease in one hit. She has less might than the average cat. So, 3 levels up for one? I don't see the big deal at all. Even if she doesn't get that str level, she can still KO the cats and double the tigers for the kill. My first post here. I was arguing for transfers Jill from the beginning. http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10600&view=findpost&p=2009453 None of those units are truly functional without Beastfoe. Conveniently come to you in the swamp. It takes them ages to reach you, when there are plenty of enemies around the map.