CannedCaineghis

Given that 19xx is the only Lyn mode requirement chapter, and that its requirement is so ridiculous compared to the others. I'd say Gaiden chapters are a pretty odd defense for Lyn mode to stay viable in a debate on FE7. Let's make it happen, I'll take the meme lord himself Devdan and you can have first post. Yeah, it's pretty tough to argue against 1-2 range in general and there is only so much "this unit is better statistically" you can do in three posts, so sometimes the debate necessitates going into minor points. I've always liked Dorcas myself, but I also still think of all the playthroughs I've had warriors end up disappointing me in performance every time I run one or more.

Let's check out your knowledge of the tellius games. Whatchu got? I'm still leaning towards Mekkah's initial thoughts on the matter. To address what you've laid out here, only 19xx falls under any sort of Lyn mode requirement, so how important is this one chapter?

It definitely cleaned up the page and organized it, but practically it just made you harder to quote. To the fist. Slightly worse Raven definitely equals better than Dorcas. And this isn't a "swords vs. axes" debate either; everyone understands axes are better because of more consistent 1-2 range. It's a Dorcas v. Guy debate like you point out. Assuming they had the same weapon type, would *ANY* of your arguments hold up? The other point, it's critical in every debate to think about where the resources the game provides are going. So every debate a unit must be able to argue against those resources going to similar users. To the first point, it does when Guy compares more favorably to the unit that is already established as better than Dorcas. That's like... the whole point of a tier list? Since you didn't address the better axe users yourself, I was thinking of not responding to this, but I will. First, Raven also massively outclasses Dorcas since Raven can uses hand axes on promotion, so that's a wash. All cavs will one day use axes and outperform Dorcas with them, so another wash in the debate. Guy can outperform many people that also use only swords, such as: Karla, Matthew, Legault, Lyn, Eliwood (before he can use a horse because that's op), arguably Karel and Jaffar. Can the same be said for a single better axe user when it comes to Dorcas? Maybe, just maybe, Bartre? But Dart, Hawkeye, Geitz, and obviously Hector, all of them I'd argue outperform Dorcas. It is when your other option invalidates your base argument? If he goes into 1 range, he's just a less accurate, slower (and therefore less damaging) unit than Guy with less avoid or true durability. More like some meaning: Steel Axe, Brave Axe (and with the 2 speed he loses here he nearly negates the point of a Brave weapon), Devil Axe, Halberd, and the Hammer. The first point we covered already. A combination of a higher stat plus a higher avoid means most of the time Guy will take *more* hits and when it isn't it's the same number Dorcas does. Guy takes an extra hit fighting any lance users? I felt like you meant to say he gets killed faster against lance users, but it doesn't read that way. Stonks! One, we already know your commitment to that durability argument isn't as rigid as you'd have us believe but I think I've covered above enough to show Guy is more durable early on, mid game and possibly even early late game. Yeah man, a 28x analysis, too bad there are like.... 2/3 of the chapters in the game before that in which we have to compare Guy and Dorcas. Didn't we already cover that Guy takes either the same number of blows, or *more* than Dorcas does for the majority of the game? This 24.01% of "explosion" is still lower than Dorcas chance. Didn't we just cover the hits argument? Re-presenting as less accurate doesn't change it. The "good statement" there implies Guy is already "consistently good enough" and just happens to have the *bonus* of being inconsistently more than enough, which I'd take over someone without that bonus every day of the weak. Yeah, he has worse avoid than Guy except when he has WTA. Which means he has worse avoid is even further exacerbated when his opponent has WTA. A detail you're glossing over... what does that say about Dorcas? Yeah, this argument still ignores who is more likely to be doubled by those incoming magical attacks. Hint.... his name starts with D and has the group of animals "Orcas" in his name. Yeah, that luck lead still translates to a avoid lead though. Point Guy. Ah here we go! Exactly my point before I had to dismiss your durability arguments. I don't particularly care that Guy has a durability advantage, I was only proving that Dorcas didn't have it. Since I see most debates as "accumulating points" in your units favor. What's the point of having 7 more skill? (assuming for a moment 7 skill is enough to consistently hit, which I think most people would dismiss in situations without WTA) This handy little calculation is the point Critical Rate = Weapon Critical + (Skill/2) + Support bonus + Crit bonus + S rank bonus. So 6 more points translates to effectively 3 more crit. And obviously it's even more important in the accuracy equation. Yeah, but skill *can* and does increase crit. So you don't get a 101% hit chance, but does give you a higher chance of a one-hit-KO that you ranted about above. Yeah, maybe he can hit, but the quote you're responding to with this quote is saying he doesn't double. "especially in 2 RN" Because it's ridiculously easy for most units to always have an effectively 100% hit rate in it, so units that don't really have to work their way out of that disadvantage. Comparing Dorcas hit to Guy's dodge is pretty weird when I'm only trying to compare Dorcas' hit to Guy's hit and Dorcas' dodge to Guy's dodge? See above? Compare the relevant stat to the relevant stat. I tried to edit that on literally seconds after I posted and serenes told me my post was locked or something, so yes Guy pretty at evasion XD 40+% implies the majority of enemies are in fact not lances users. I still disagree with your assessment that higher HP is better than a full two points in the relevant defensive stat especially when the HP stats don't differ that greatly for quite awhile. This last point is just baffling to me. You control where your units go, the majority of the time your unit will have the advantage against who they face because you plan it to be that way. In which case, Guy outperforms Dorcas if we're going off of what is most common of a state. Yeah, CH 24, long before 28x where Dorcas is supposed to become the unstoppable killer you've been saying XD. So you can stock up on them and alleviate any issues that may come up WTA wise. Yeah, I'm not recommending Wyrmslayers, I'm just pointing out that the game thought of a balance for those kinds of matchups already. Totally my bad. Covered the axes above. Well, you see the thing is, we have the "view map" function before deployment, so Guy only needs to ever have the Armorslayer in his inventory when you can clearly see a need for it. The same can't be said for the hand axes since it's your arguments "default" weapon. Like I said above, real arguments are won in increments. Even performing better against an "uncommon enemy" type is a point in Guy's favor. "Better some of the time" while according to your arguments so far "at parity" the rest of the time does mean "much more useful". But Guy already is better for the majority of the game, just statistically speaking. I don't think efficient play really cares that much about trying to get "all content" done, it's like the difference between an any% speedrun and an all bosses% speedrun. I think perhaps we should ask side bee what he thinks and anyone else who is wanting to be more involved in the debate community their opinions on allowing it, but I'm still with Mekkah myself. (Maybe we should even have a debate on Lyn Mode v. No Lyn Mode) Yes, 15 is half of 30 thank you, but pair that killer weapon with that 15 bonus and suddenly you're at 45. Then consider the critical rate equation, then realize that with that set up Guy is critting over 50% of the time. And realize it's close to 25+% when he isn't weilding a killer weapon. 1/4 chance of doing 3x damage on each hit and hitting more often than Dorcas seems pretty substantial to me. 49% of failure implies a 51% of success, incredibly higher than any gambling. That's like FE 101, make your riskiest attacks first (like when you want a lucky crit) so you can plan contigencies afterwards. It's unfair in order to point out how ridiculous it is to dismiss free bonus crit chance, of which Dorcas doesn't get in his promotion. Also... just like mathematically speaking (.85)^15 is smaller than .85.... (.85)^15 is only like 0.09ish. But I think I understood your actual meaning. The first statement is just factually incorrect, he deals damage to one enemy on player phase (like ya know, every single unit in your army), but not every enemy unit has access to 1-2 range, so it's much more likely he's hitting as many units as you allow to reach him on enemy phase. <-- this covers the 2nd statement and third statement is just a repeat of the first. Lucky for Guy though, you don't clear most maps with only 1 unit especially in effective play, and you can actually knock out a lot of the 1-2 range threats to guy with your cavaliers because of their superior movement (this is true for Dorcas and Guy) while your infantry are dealing with the bulk frontliners. Well one, Dorcas hit rate is still factually lower than Guys, regardless of whether or not Dorcas hit is "good enough", therefore his Blows Dealt will be lower before considering 1-2 range, then throw in Guy's higher speed meaning Guy is more likely to double his opponent so even more Blows Dealt over Dorcas. Then when we consider Blows Received Dorcas has it worse because of his worse avoid stat meaning he's taking more hits than Guy, then of course his speed is lower so now add even more hits over Guy to Blows Received. So both sides of that equation look worse for Dorcas before we take into account his ability to do 1-2 range combat, the problem there is it'll also be exposing him to more possible hits, so at best it's a wash in the Blows Dealt to Blows Received and at worst it increases his Blows Received to unredeemable levels. Leaving Guy the clear winner in an argument over Blows Dealt vs. Blows Received ratios To my closing argument then Here are some calculation equations that Guy has a ridiculous/normal advantage on, like for instance avoid which is much higher than just the bonus he's getting from his Luck stat being better. Avoid = (Attack Speed x 2) + Luck + Support bonus + Terrain bonus + Tactician bonus That's right, avoid cares about your AS , and we all know Guy is superior there. Staff avoid = (Resistance x 5) + (Distance from enemy x 2) Remember Guy's superior Resistance from earlier, turns out the 2 Res is extremely important in the above. Who is more likely to be beserked or sleeped? Dorcas Accuracy = Weapon Hit + (Skill x 2) + (Luck / 2) + Support bonus + Weapon Triangle bonus + S Rank bonus + Tactician bonus We all saw that one coming, but I won't beat on that drum anymore. Critical rate = Weapon Critical + (Skill / 2) + Support bonus + Critical bonus + S Rank bonus Critical evade = Luck + Support bonus + Tactician bonus Not only does Guy have a vastly higher Critical Rate , but a higher Critical evade. And these are just the ones I think are worth mentioning, many more give Guy the advantage as well. So to recap, we have on the one hand. A more interesting, faster, stronger, higher crit rate and avoid unit. On the other we have someone with 1-2 range with mediocre speed and a "passable" hit rate. An easy decision. Vote Guy for President for better unit. **** Had a great time in this debate @AnonymousSpeed hope you did as well. Thanks again for the invitation and the attempt to keep the debates going. To anyone else that decided to view this debate. If you're interested at all let us know. I'll take any debate, with any pairing within reason in any of the GBA/3DS FEs and obviously the Tellius series. Start flexing your debate muscles now for when everyone has finally finished Three Houses

Yeahhhh those people, yikes. Ok, let's assume for a moment that you're buying hand axes every time you shop. They have 20 uses and cost 300 gold a pop. How much money are we spending on hand axes just to give Dorcas "kind of" perpetual 1-2 range? And it isn't like you're saying Dorcas should only have hand axes across all his items slots, since you've already made arguments for him to have a vulnerary and a 1 range weapon to manipulate the way the AI attacks. So we give Dorcas 14 levels and a promotion item for him to be able to do something over half way through the game? Not to mention this 14 levels thing seems like an arbitrary number picked only to prove your point. Going to talk more about this, but it's pretty standard in efficient playthroughs to promote as early as possible since it brings the most benefit at the quickest pace. That means only 7 levels for both Guy and Dorcas. Yes, sword locked is worse than axe locked everyone understands this in the community, but it doesn't make or break unit viability. Let's take Raven v. Dorcas for example, Raven is sword locked until hero, but his mercenary combat outpaces a giant portion of the cast for large chunks of the game. Guy is just "Raven-lite" in this scenario and often will be wielding a higher might weapon than hand axes. Yes, units have other classes they're naturally weaker against? Wrymslayer and Lancereaver still exist though. Yeah, unfortunately, every time you switch Dorcas to a 1 range weapon, it takes away a huge advantage of being axe locked so first point is fairly irrelevant. We're also not talking about how many rounds of combat it takes Dorcas to get to 2 or 3 hits in order to KO them. Since well, that Steel Axe technically slightly weights down an unpromoted Dorcas. So often even when he can 1-2 range, he's still having to engage in just as many rounds of combat as Guy is, if not more. Every time you reference a 1 range axe, it blows the core of your argument out. I'm considering only the hand axe as your viable weapon since it's 1-2 range is the core of your argument. The other axes don't make your point, some weigh Dorcas down, AND as all axes are they are less accurate than swords. All the other axes with all their power which does exaggerate Dorcas' 1 real strength (his strength), but also shows you his incredible weakness in skill and speed. 6 skill is the difference between Dorcas base skill being at 1 or 7. Very clear which is better there and how incredibly different those hit chances would be. These Dorcas stats are unrealistic for efficient play, assuming you're playing efficiently you should probably promote Dorcas as quickly as possible meaning level 10. So a promoted Dorcas from level 10 would have roughly 12 skill and 6 luck. Turns out his hit chances aren't as good as they're being presented here, at least a bit a missaholic anonymous situation. Hardly boasting, just pointing them out. Especially the Res because Guy's growth rate is higher and hard mode he starts higher, so he'll pretty much always stay higher in this stat than Dorcas. Luck is actually extremely important in the context of durability as well, since you've claimed that Guy is "dodge reliant" "luckily" (please make me lose based on this pun) for me luck increases evasion by 1 for each point of it (and less important for this particular part of my argument hit rate) and Guy stays ahead in this stat throughout the levels with or without hard mode bonuses. I think we might need to reexamine who the better axe users are in the game before we even consider Dorcas then. Word. Hardly, as addressed above, the stats you presented for Dorcas were unrealistic given efficient play. Yes exactly! Why not use almost every other axe user over Dorcas and keep Guy for the enemies those axe users struggle against? Ok, we're talking base Guy here, so let's talk base Dorcas in this context. "A little more damage" is 3 more damage per hit (totaling our per hit damage to 11), and Dorcas only has 30HP. So, he goes down in.... 3 hits rather than Guy's four, not to mention this appears by your math, to be before considering any sword users coming his way. Even leveling Dorcas up to 10, giving him the grace of 7 levels we aren't giving Guy. He still takes the same number of hits as Guy from an average enemy. This is before we consider Guy's higher evasion, speed, and hit chance. Not to mention, you've gone from "Dorcas is more durable than Guy" to "his durability matches" Unfortunately, the aforementioned averages are a bit weird to use on an efficient run, but let's role with them for now, but we should throw luck in the mix here. If Guy has say a 3/10 chance of every hit missing (before we take enemy luck into account) and Dorcas has a 1/10 chance of every hit missing (same) then is it accurate to say Dorcas is statistically more likely to take less damage? Again, see above about Luck. As for everything beyond Wyvern riders, if we're in a position where any character is taking 5+ hits without healing in between, that character is probably dying either way, unless you believe strongly in their evasion/combat overall. Comparable in a way that Guy will on average have ~2.25 more Res (or greater) than Dorcas throughout almost all their level ups beyond initial base stats and some earlier levels. So hard to say HP matters more especially when attacked by multiple mages of varying magic and speed stats. Kind of addressed this manipulating the enemy argument earlier, but a 1-range locked unit like Guy, can still very easily manipulate the AI to target him away from other vulnerable, weaker 1-2 / 2 range allies.... like say, Dorcas. Change this to "potentially damage" a multitude of enemies since he will almost never double throughout most of the game. Yes, but you see, when you hit twice almost every combat instead of once almost every combat. You end up doing double the damage! So even if Guy hits for say, 15 damage at a time when Dorcas hits for 25; Guy does more actual damage. Not to mention, even if this wasn't true Guy has a secret weapon to combat this that we'll get too... This post is interesting, mentioning killing weapons when you later on dismiss a 15% crit chance, huh. Again, these stats are inaccurate to efficient play, so not sure what to even say to this that I haven't already, but comparing only the people Guy has a disadvantage in combat with that Dorcas has an advantage in combat with is pretty misleading in general about who is pretty at evasion in general. Yes lance wielders are common, but far from the only unit in the game still. If we're trying to mitigate RNG in general in any run let alone efficiently, any chance to miss is near unacceptable especially in 2 RN. Yeah, this I have to say was me misunderstanding (slash being blind). I thought you were saying units with 10 speed were rare, when you were talking about AS. Which is incredibly different. However, even in this argument it nearly locks Dorcas to the lighter axes for the entire game to mitigate the chance of being doubled. And with his laughable 20% speed growth, who knows. Guy doesn't necessarily need an Armorslayer either, I'm just pointing to a near guaranteed option for him if the issue comes up. After all, crit chance exists. But we aren't there yet. I would never joke about something as serious as.... XD Speedy swordsmen being taking down from a distance by who? Not Dorcas, he'd miss, never double, and then be killed by them on enemy phase. Archers? Not a possibility if you care about unit quality or turn count. So yes lance users with Javelins or mages. OR if you're in need of them elsewhere you get another tactical option in Guy who can at the very least trade one for one and at the most outright kill these opponents. You can't say the same in this situation for Dorcas. Making Guy much more useful. Yeah in the original rules. However, I believe the original rule creator Mekkah had decent logic behind it that goes something like this (if he ever sees this or anyone familiar with the time period sees this and wants to correct me please do): Every unit can be good with grinding, so things like arena abuse are out, which also causes Lyn mode to be out since it's essentially a tutorial of the game which makes later chapters easier because it allows you to grind. Lyn mode causes units like Kent and Sain (who are already good) to completely outshine (/ make look like poop) a really good unit like Lowen just because they got 8 extra chapters to grind. Well, it isn't like he doesn't deal damage the other 85% of the time (it also isn't like he'll *only* have that 15% so it's a bit higher than I'm presenting later in this comment) He'll often be dealing *at least* the same amount as Dorcas thanks to his decent strength and ability to double. Crit chance just gives him a 3/10 chance of doing triple damage on 1 of his 2 hits in a round of combat. Going from *at least* the same amount as Dorcas, to "way more than Dorcas can ever do statistically". If you think +15 crit isn't huge, let's do a romhack of FE7 and I'll give EVERY enemy +15 to crit on hard mode. Let me know how it goes. Yes they *can* both take 3 hits, but who is *more likely* to take those hits? And no, if Dorcas doesn't double and Guy does, it'll almost certainly end up taking them the same number of turns as Dorcas will either have to wait to counter again or will need to engage on player phase himself just like Guy. I don't think this last statement is accurate especially when you consider real hit and avoid.

Before I get into crushing your arguments here XD, I'd just like to thank you @AnonymousSpeed for trying to keep the debate community active and for the invitation! I can already tell this is going to be an interesting one. I plan on being a bit spicier than normal, so I hope I don't offend. I mean... point Guy? No, I'll go into more detail. Obviously Guy is from Sacae an area that gets very little representation this time around, but got much more in the previous game. He has one of the best supports Matthew has (and I don't wish to spoil that, everyone should see it on their own if they like Matthew as a character). He also serves as an excellent foil for Rath to one day accept leadership of the Kutolah tribe, as a Karel as a worthy opponent in due time, and somewhat a surrogate son to Louise. He fulfills the anime awkward "guy" role in his support with Priscilla. Let's move on to some of the misinterpretations of facts presented. So does Guy, just not as consistently. However, this isn't Sacred Stones. Hand Axes and Tomahawks don't grow on trees. Dorcas doesn't have perpetual 1-2 range like you'd have us all believe. Even if it was true, he'd be stuck with 7 mt hand axes the majority of the game which side bee pretty effectively pegged me on in the Garcia v. Lute debate. More like *drastic* statistical edge. Str +1, Skl +6, Spd +7, Lck +2, Def +3, and Res +1 that's more than the bonuses Dorcas or Guy get on promotion. The only stat he's better in is HP and it's only by +5. Which starts to break down the unit durability argument, but we'll get to that later. Where is he getting this initial hand axe? Bartre? Wouldn't that hand axe be better on Markus in an efficient playthrough? Minor point, but a vulnerary he doesn't start with unlike Guy. Is his HP stat "monstrous" if it's only 5 HP higher than HHM Guy? His growth rate in HP is also only 5% higher than Guys. This "durability" argument really needs to be examined a bit more. Also, Dorcas *maybe* can 2-3HKO most enemies in the early chapters, *IF* he can actually hit. With his drastically lower skill, and using axes which are much more inaccurate (especially the hand axe!), I'm betting Guy is far more consistent rounding enemies on enemy phase even without HHM bonuses. More like repeat until Dorcas actually hits. And yet another issue with the durability argument crops up here we'll cover below. Lot of issues here, so let's take them as they come in order to show how Guy *actually* compares. First, using a vulnerary on your turn for a non-mounted unit is often sub-optimal if we're assuming efficient play, let your healers be your healers and let your attackers be your attackers (why can't your friends be your friends and your workers be your workers). Second, Guy is as you put it "dodge reliant" for his defense, yet has 3 more base defense than Dorcas, I'll take the higher dodge chance plus higher defense every day of the week. Swords in general have weaker power than axes, but if you're proposing that Dorcas should almost always have a hand axe equipped this argument falls apart pretty quickly with the 7 mt on a hand axe. Almost every sword above iron beats this out or equals it. This scenario is pretty much a complete fabrication that disregards the fact that there aren't even Peg Knights in the chapter Guy shows up and the idea you'd force him to use iron only. With base HHM Guy having an extra strength over base Dorcas he'll be hitting for only 1 or two less against these Pegasus Knights (and he'll actually be hitting). Let's keep this in mind when you start mentioning other axes as options for Dorcas. But even with this being true, if Guy gets only 2 more points of speed (so essentially two, not really *several*, level ups for Guy) he's doubling Dorcas and people Dorcas can't double, again. Yes, HHM has tons of lance users to balance things for Hector being your main lord. However, the Lancereaver exists and even without it, with weapon triangle disadvantage Guy is hitting *every* time especially in 2RN, where Dorcas in 2RN still has chances to miss somehow with weapon triangle advantage. Not to mention, the prevalence of better axe wielders on your team (Like the aforementioned Hector) means every resource you put towards Dorcas is a resource you took away from those better users of axes. Going back to this old well again, yes Myrmidons and Swordmasters often are less durable than other classes and thus rely on avoid, but in the case Dorcas V. Guy, Guy has better avoid *and* better defensive stats. At base, at level 10, at level 20, and at promotion. Only late into their promotions does this stop being true, and shouldn't the journey to that late into promotion matter much much more? Also, again, "let your healers be your healers and your fighters be your fighers". If Guy's durability is "marginally above" Lyn's I can't imagine what you'll say about a unit with 3 less defense than Guy has.... wait Dorcas has 3 less defense than Guy and you're saying he's more durable.... huh? Average stats on Serenes Forest itself (taking into account hard mode bonuses) can disprove the idea that Dorcas will be getting more defense for the majority of the game. 5 more HP is worse than 3 more defense and I don't think anyone would argue against that and it's before we ever talk about avoid. Ok, at this point, I have to question if we are talking about the same game. 10 isn't "very fast" for enemies in FE7 and 6 base speed definitely gets you doubled by a large number of enemies like speedy lance cavs and fliers. And the idea that not doubling is okay because he can 1-2 range more often is a little much, just because someone can 1-2 range doesn't mean we should expect less of them in combat. "Even enough to double knights and soldiers" is like saying it's enough to double enemies on the tutorial maps. Doubtful that Guy wouldn't 2HKO a soldier, but maybe the knight you'd have a point if the armorslayer didn't exist. Change "might" to "definitely will every time" in the above, in the case of Guy though, an un-weighed down base Guy true, but a couple of levels are going to change that especially when you're saying 10 AS is rare. If Dorcas is getting doubled, I doubt many players are worried about him being able to counter, his life is probably gone if he's being doubled by more than like 2 units. This whole statement is pretty much irrelevant if we're abiding by the old rules where Lyn Mode is explicitly banned. But you're technically correct. If I have to address it though, even if he gets 2 levels he'll still be behind base Guy in every stat but HP on Hard Mode including defense. Let me leave you with these thoughts: Guy's growths are better than Dorcas' growths based on one thing alone, the stat Guy wants more of (Strength) is at 30%, while the one Dorcas desperately needs more of (Speed) is at a laughable 20% (and this is before we consider who has the advantage in growths overall, that being.... Guy). Every round of combat you use Dorcas in takes equipment (and exp but irrelevant) from better axe users. We haven't even got to crits yet.

Dorcas v. Guy is fine with me. You want first post?

This pretty effectively kills FE Debates under the proper debate "designation". No voting topic thread so that would have to be reestablished in general, no rules thread for newbies so that would have to be reestablished in general, and no challenges thread.

Never mind, found the frankly sad two sentences about it in announcements.

I was hoping someone could point me to the thread justifying why the FE Debate area got thrown into the graveyard; I'd really appreciate it. If that doesn't exist perhaps a short explanation here would be good? It's literally the reason I came to these forums and I was having a few productive and fun debates. Thank You!

Well Dart is vastly above the others in this list imo. The problem is Dorcas and Guy are almost two tiers from each other and Renault is almost never used do to horrible availability. If you're looking to do Dart.... putting him against like Hawkeye, Jaffar, or even like Harken would be comparable. Dorcas I'm not even sure who could go up against him fairly, most tier lists have like 6 units below him.

It's the only logical conclusion. Who are we looking at as match up candidates?

My vote goes to side bee. I think the "availability" argument brought up really brought into question how much availability a unit needs to be considered good. Athos is good right? But he has one chapter. Caineghis is good but you only get him for the tower. So in LTC or efficient playthroughs we have to look at long term contribution (or how impactful / game changing their short term contribution is). I think the consistency Percival will bring outweighs the utility Nime would bring when you could've already had someone doing mostly what she does. Although if they started in the same chapter, I'd feel differently about the whole debate.

Hmmmm, another physical v magic unit debate. I'd kind of like to see side bee tackle this one since they were just on the other "side" of that kind of debate. Curious how they'd handle the other end. If side bee doesn't show up in another day with comment consider me in and I'd like to cede the first post .

Hopefully it is. I'm happy to take up the gauntlet. Any challenge in particular?

side bee and I's FE8 debate on Garcia and Lute wrapped up, so I'm still looking for any debates in FE9 and 10. My topics for FE9 are Nephenee v. Devdan, Lethe v. Ranulf, Gatrie v. Brom, or even Mia v. Ilyana. FE10, I'm willing to take most any character match up if we put Haar, Jill and the Laguz lords in a tier of their own.

This topic is ready for a vote.

Before going further, I'd once again like to emphasize that Sacred Stones is a *very* easy FE and as such, speed becomes mostly irrelevant in the game very quickly as once a certain benchmark is met every unit will be able to double throughout the game. The only time Garcia might have trouble is early game which I've addressed. If for some reason he gets speed screwed the Garm addresses his late game speed and going Hero to sacrifice *some* power will combat his mid-game speed. While it's true that the hand axe might never changes, the tomahawk exists in Sacred stones and it isn't true that axes might is outclassed by tomes, especially when you consider weapons like (every other axe). The highest might tome is bolting with 20 mt, but that has what 5 uses? Not exactly going to have that consistently, the next highest is Fimbulvetr at 13 (if we're not counting S rank weapons). What "tier" of axe can compete with this A rank tome? The tomahawk, swordslayer, battle axe, devil axe, and silver axe have might equal to or higher than (most listed are here) Fimbulvetr. Meaning if Garcia ever combats in 1 range he'll easily outpace Lutes power in combat, but he can also do it in 1-2 range with the tomahawk throughout more of the game since these axes will almost all come earlier than Fimbulvetr. This is before considering that nearly all of his weapon choices won't weigh him down, which can't be said of Lute. It's true that he's par with a level 1 unit in 1 stat, but considering he's a level 4 unit it isn't like they're supposed to start worlds apart, although many of Garcia's other stats as mentioned above would suggest that. Lute having to grow 9 levels is a detriment to the rest of your team, I'm more than willing for a unit to be slightly slower (in FE8) in order to make sure 3 levels are allocated to the rest of my team. And while I believe Warrior is the best choice for Garcia to go, if we're designing him specifically to combat Lute (which we aren't), he'll do better against her with Garm than she'll do in reverse with Excalibur so the speed gain from Hero isn't necessary as you seem to be implying by showcasing them 4 speed apart. Well, as discussed Speedwings aren't the only way to combat poor speed, but assuming they are for a moment. No unit in Sacred Stones needs the speedwings to double, they could easily sit in the convoy unused with every other stat booster. However, that's a waste of a perfectly good stat booster, so between Lute and Garcia who benefits more from using it? According to your argument throughout this discussion Lute is so vastly superior to Garcia in speed she can basically double everything her and Garcia would come across throughout the game, so Garcia is the clear winner of who benefits more from the speedwings since his speed is nearly his only weakness (the other being that he's unmounted of course). It would, *if* his skill didn't consistently outpace Lute's therefore keeping his accuracy on par. No, Garcia's promo also benefits the entire army, he gets better defensive stats and a higher damage output (and speed if you go Hero) making his combat better and his ability to wall sections of enemy units off even better than it was before. Lute's promotion does give canto (though the nerfed version, we aren't talking FE9 and 10 canto here) and access to staves (not access to warp out of the gate) which require Lute to be essentially benched as a staff bot until her staff rank is raised, where is Garcia at during that? On the frontlines helping you finish the chapter actively. Not to mention, there are better users of the warp staff than Lute since they will have their staff ranks high enough by the time you get a warp staff, making Lute at best a 2nd warper and at worst someone wasting turns and promotion items to become something she isn't the best at being. The point that it's in question at all between a physical and non-physical unit is a point in Garcia's favor. For the hatchet, my recent playthrough of FE8 has colored my perspective a bit since at least for me, it did seem to allow Garcia to double more often in the early game, but perhaps he would've with any weapon I tried which only bolsters Garcia as a unit. I only mentioned the s-rank weaponry to prove that no matter what path Garcia goes down, he's extremely capable of being a late game powerhouse despite his initial poor speed. He doesn't require Garm to do it by any means, but it provides blanket coverage. After all, there aren't many other viable axe users in an efficient playthrough. Comparing Garcia even implicitly to Amelia is pretty extreme considering the coddling required to do anything with Amelia in an efficient playthrough, which we both know Garcia doesn't require, so Garm + Garcia is far more likely to occur in efficient playthroughs than Ameilia + Vidofnir. Funny considering this earlier argument If 4 speed is a huge deal, losing 2 speed certainly sounds like *a* deal. I agree that capped stats aren't super relevant, but that are *somewhat* relevant if you're fielding Lute or Garcia in the late game, you're still getting them level ups and caps matter if you're getting levels still because we have to ask "Who is benefiting more from these mid to late game level ups?" It's a problem this community often doesn't talk about when it comes to magic units. They have actual eternal 1-2 range, but how they perform in 1 range often shows that they are only ever going to be used in 2 range (especially early to mid game, a problem you'll note Garcia doesn't have early to mid game). For instance, let's say we have a map full of enemies; we can either put Lute in the middle of them all, or we can put Garcia. Who would have the advantage when surrounded? Who would have the advantage if the enemy charges our army? Who would have the advantage if we charge them? Garcia is the answer in every case because he can take far more 1-2 range hits from the enemy and still has access to 1-2 range weaponry just like Lute. I'd like to take this last post opportunity to once again thank you side bee for the invitation and I hope to debate with you again! You presented some well thought out arguments. I hope my tone never crossed into hostile in this debate as that would never be my intention (hard to understand tone through text). The debate not withstanding, I started this not liking Garcia or Lute that much as units, but now I want to do a run of FE8 using them as part of my core team. I do wish you'd of touched on Lute's story aspects (which perhaps you'll be doing in your last post) as stats and what not are fine and obviously what win debates, but support convos and such are where I actually find a love for the Fire Emblem characters. In that spirit I'll be making my last argument. Supports. What they both get and who gets greater benefits. Let's jump into the best for both immediately. For Garcia the big draw for supports is easily Seth. He's the best unit inarguably in the game and you'll want to field him in every chapter unless he's banned in a draft or ranked run. Garcia is fire while Seth is anima so at just their B rank will give them bonuses to everything: attack, defense, accuracy, avoid, critical evade, and critical. While C rank will give every bonus except defense. Effectively negating Garcia's early poor luck and the unweildiness inherent to axes to balance them out, not to mention further accelerating him into a combat powerhouse due to the additional crit and attack. How does Lute fare? Which is best is a bit more complicated, but we assume it's by unit viability she'd go with Vanessa, Kyle or Artur. I'd be inclined to say Vanessa. Assuming that what does Lute get? Well unfortunately Lute and Vanessa are both anima so throughout their supports they'll be locked to only getting bonuses for Attack, Defense, Avoid and Critical Evade missing out on Critical and Accuracy. Unfortunately the only real benefit for Lute here is defense (which will be a fairly small bonus even at A rank) and Avoid which isn't inconsiderable, but you can only avoid for so long without rng manipulation.

Being locked to physical weapons is the nature of debate between a non-physical and a physical unit, but it's not as noteworthy as many would believe, after all we wouldn't say Lute is better than Seth because Seth is locked to physical weapons. Hand axes theoretically aren't Garcia's *only* 1-2 range option, after all if you're implying Ewan should be benched in an efficient run (which I agree with of course) than the same would be said of Ross (making my Hero Crest contention argument even stronger) giving Garcia exclusive access for awhile to the Hatchet which is light enough to give Garcia the ability to double in nearly all run ins in the early game aside from the occasional merc or myr. You're right we should narrow the stats down to the ones that really count, and in nearly every other FE I would agree with you, but in Sacred Stones (maybe this is just my perspective as I haven't looked at average speed stats for enemies across the game or anything) the enemy seems incredibly slow most of the time. As mentioned above though even when this isn't the case Garcia is able to early game double thanks to the Hatchet and later on his speed stat will average into a place where he'll consistently double anyway in the mid and late game. Meaning the truly important difference between these two is their attack which you've already conceded Lute stays consistently behind on. I have to disagree here, especially when it comes to the bases themselves, as I still believe RNG mitigation is the name of the FE game, so Garcia is less prone to being numbers screwed. I think you're deeply undervaluing the take and give commands here as often times in LTC and efficient strategies infantry units with high aid are used to give those precious extra few squares for the staffbots or boss killers in the set up turns especially earlier on. Though I'm willing to concede if Lute goes Mage Knight it's effectively a wash here as early game Garcia will have more utility while late game the utility will go to MK Lute. Also "the only units with less move with Garcia are armor knights" is somewhat irrelevant since this can be said about half the cast including Lute (since her and Garcia start with the same move) unless she goes Mage Knight (which effectively locks you into saying Mage Knight must be the superior promotion path for her). She's somewhere in the contention for an early Guiding Ring for sure, but in LTC or efficient runs anyone that starts with a staff rank and will get weapon exp in staves with their promotion is a serious contender for them as well thanks to warp staves. Though I'm not interested in defending the other magic units in this particular debate, just wanted to point out the large number compared to the Hero Crest users. I'd agree the mount is the best thing Lute gets from her promotion and it's tough for ANY non-mounted unit to contest a mounted one especially when canto exists, but as alluded to by you earlier her damage is inferior to Garcia's throughout the game (at least without considering she doubles), if she goes Mage Knight (magic cap 25) she loses that battle even further if Garcia goes Warrior (strength cap 30). I think my reference to the Hatchet earlier proves his speed can be *at least* par which gets rid of his only real weakness in combat as a physical unit, but we can take it even further when we consider the S rank weaponry. No matter which route or promotion path you take after chapter 15 Garcia with have access to Garm which grants a whooping +5 speed which he'll also have enough con to wield without suffering penalty effectively nullifying any issue he might have doubling in late-mid to late game. Does Lute make as effective use of her possible S rank weaponry? No of course not as Excalibur gives +5 speed that Lute doesn't need, and has a weight of 13 enough to weigh down all but Mage Knight Lute except it also weighs MK Lute too since she only gains 3 con in her MK promotion path. Strictly speaking Garcia's combat will consistently outclass Lute's before we ever consider utility. And since we brought up move. Either promotion path for Garcia will bring him to 6 move only 1 less than Mage Knight Lute and equal to Sage Lute, canto is a big loss, but in general Garcia is fast enough to keep up with Lute on the front lines if you're clearing efficiently as there will be enemy units to fight. As to which class Garcia should go, either keeps him ahead of Lute in combat, as Hero will give him +2 spd allowing nearly guaranteed mid-game doubling and Warrior (the choice I think he should go given there are easier ways to combat his bad initial speed mentioned above) will give him the ability to do much more damage in a single strike. Neither weapon gain is worth much note aside from bows being able to take him out of the weapon triangle and swords giving him some control over it. What about Lute? Well it seems that Sage isn't worth mentioning as its move would only be on par with Garcia and the light magic is as useful as Garcia gaining swords is. So Mage Knight seems the logical choice giving the 1 point of movement over Garcia and the ability to aid finally (after who knows how many chapters of being unable to help in that department). Although that 1 move comes at a somewhat steep combat cost for Lute losing 1 of each of the "defensive" stats. There's also another consideration upon joining that I avoided touching on until now. Garcia joins at level 4 while Lute joins at level 1 which means of the "experience pie" Lute will need a bigger portion than Garcia to get to level 10 in order to promote, effectively depriving other units in your army of that same juicy experience they need.

Thanks for the invite side bee looking forward to a vigorous debate! 😃 Story (main and support insights): Garcia made a grave mistake in his life. Focusing on his career. He was a top commander of Renais, but when his wife Riza died, he adopted a singular focus in life. Protecting and being with his only family left Ross. To that goals end he's convinced by his son to support Eirika's army (and later on possibly Ephraim's depending on route). It's shown in supports between Garcia and Seth that Garcia doesn't regret his life in service to Renais despite his actions showing him to turn from that path after his wife passed showing Garcia as a man of quite confidence that's now fulfilled by his purpose. Another support (Dozla and Garcia) implies that Garcia has some (at least minor) magical ability (though perhaps this support is implying anyone could?) and that he's willing to try any discipline at least once. Last but not least, his support with his son Ross shows him to be a devoted and cautious father, more than many can say in FE. Combat: Garcia is locked to axes for many a year, however if there is a physical weapon type to be locked to axes are probably the best one thanks to the inexpensive nature of hand axes giving Garcia nearly perpetual 1-2 range. Garcia unfortunately has poor speed and luck, but makes up for this with nearly every other stat save Res (but very few physical combat units have amazing Res). He's able to hit fairly hard compared to everyone but Seth at base, but is unlikely to double, this can be remedied somewhat by giving a speedwings or a promotion to hero (or both) however in the long run of FE8 he'll just double naturally after little time in either promotion with no stat booster basically. Bases (keeping in mind Garcia starts at level 4 and Lute starts at level 1): Garcia compared to Lute HP: +11 Str: +2 Skl: +1 Spd: +0 Lck: -5 Def: +2 Res: -5 (Better in 4 categories, worse in 2 and tied in 1) Bases (if we let Lute average up to level 4 and Garcia still hasn't leveled) Garcia compared to level 4 Lute HP: +9.65 Str: +.05 Skl: +.1 Spd: -1.35 Lck: -6.35 Def: +1.55 Res: -5.2 (Better in 4 categories still, worse in 3) It's clear that Garcia wins in the "bases" department. Growth Rates: Garcia compared to Lute HP: +35% Str: +0% Skl: +10% Spd: -25% Lck: +0 Def: +10% Res: -25% (Three higher growths, two equal growths and two lesser growths) - Point Garcia for Growths. Now lets look at both Lute and Garcia at the earliest they could promote level 10: Garcia compared to Lute HP: +11.75 Str: +.05 Skl: +.7 Spd: -2.85 Lck: -6.65 Def: +2.15 Res: -6.7 (4 better stats, 3 worse stats) - Point Garcia if we're playing efficiently and don't have the luxury of waiting 10 more levels to promote. However, even if we were this trend would hold true given Garcia's superior or equal growths in the same 4 stats. Lastly let's talk about utility and affordability: What went unmentioned in base stats were the con and aid stats which Garcia overwhelming has more of so he could rescue drop more units than Lute could; though would be able to be rescue dropped by less (although that's far less important than being able to rescue drop to begin with in any efficient play through). His higher defense and and more importantly HP imply that he could more reliably used as a wall (with or without a weapon) as RNG mitigation is the name of the game in FE, if I make the assumption *every* attack will hit then Garcia is a superior wall than Lute could ever hope to be. Then there's the question of promotion items, who else is contesting Garcia's Hero Crest and Lute' s Guiding Ring? For the Hero Crests there are only myrmidons, fighters and mercenaries (which we'll delve into more specifically in a moment. For the Guiding Ring there are mages, monks, priests, clerics, troubadours and shamans already 3 more classes than the Hero Crest before we determine how many of each class there are and how many of the proposed promotion items there are throughout the campaign. For fighters only two possibilities Garcia and his son Ross (assuming you don't take Ross down the pirate route as the only user of the ocean seal), for myrmidons two possibilities again Joshua and Marisa, and mercs only Gerik (who comes with a hero crest in his inventory so he's almost not a contender) totally Hero Crest users to 5, and the number of Hero crests in the normal game? 3 in each route assuming no secret shop. For the sake of brevity the number of Guiding Ring users is 7, but the number of Guiding RIngs? 5 on each route (assuming 1 conditional is met and no secret shop).It's clear that Lute using the Guiding Ring restricts more units than Garcia using a Hero Crest and despite the Guiding Rings relative scarcity it costs the same as a Hero Crest so is equally detrimental to your personal funds. I'll later be addressing the differences in promotions, but I rest for now.

Garcia works for me. Sure, I'll go ahead and set up the thread

I'm not sure I'd call Lute mid-tier, but I'm happy to take the opposing side. If you want to stick to magic to keep my first debate a bit simpler I'd be happy to defend Knoll, Artur, Saleh or even *shudders* Ewan. If you're looking for any challenge in general, I'll go with Garcia or Joshua. I'll let you pick which character I'm to defend. Any rule preferences or just the standards laid out by Mekkah?

Hey side bee, I've never played fe 15, but I'd be down for fe 8. Any particular match up in mind?

Anyone up for FE9? Thinking maybe Nephenee v. Devdan, Lethe v. Ranulf, Gatrie v. Brom, or even Mia v. Ilyana.

Howz it Serenes Forest Forum goers? I just joined after watching a video Mekkah made about Ike v. Kieran and some old forums where units viability was debated. I'm hoping to find opportunities for such debates here or revive them if necessary to hopefully increase my own knowledge of my favorite units and be able to articulate why exactly they are my favorites. My favorite game in the series is Path of Radiance, the introduction of a young CannedCaineghis to all the Laguz tribes (and King Caineghis's theme song) and the continent of Tellius was a magical time in my childhood, followed by Radiant Dawn despite its plot getting.... odd. Hope to speak with you all in the other threads!