CannedCaineghis
-
Posts
23 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Posts posted by CannedCaineghis
-
-
On 8/6/2019 at 6:58 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:
All right time to throw my hat into the ring. I open to trying debates in FE5, FE7, FE9, FE10, FE12, FE14, and FE15.
Let's check out your knowledge of the tellius games. Whatchu got?
8 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:Now, how about Lyn Mode vs. No Lyn Mode? What is the proper assumption for FE7 analysis? I personally support playing Lyn mode, not because Lyn mode itself is cool (it's pretty bad) but because you don't get all the Hector Hard Mode chapters without it.
I'm still leaning towards Mekkah's initial thoughts on the matter. To address what you've laid out here, only 19xx falls under any sort of Lyn mode requirement, so how important is this one chapter?
-
23 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:
hope my way of organizing this last post was helpful in understanding it and cleaning up the flow of the argument.
It definitely cleaned up the page and organized it, but practically it just made you harder to quote.
23 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:To the fist. Slightly worse Raven definitely equals better than Dorcas. And this isn't a "swords vs. axes" debate either; everyone understands axes are better because of more consistent 1-2 range. It's a Dorcas v. Guy debate like you point out. Assuming they had the same weapon type, would *ANY* of your arguments hold up?
The other point, it's critical in every debate to think about where the resources the game provides are going. So every debate a unit must be able to argue against those resources going to similar users.
23 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:The existence of a unit better than Dorcas does not imply that Guy is also better than Dorcas.
Honestly, if we're going to argue that "better axe users" invalidate Dorcas, we might as well throw Guy out the window because Raven massively outclasses him, Marcus wields swords better than axes, and every cavalier can use swords (before promotion) in addition to all the advantages their classes entail.
To the first point, it does when Guy compares more favorably to the unit that is already established as better than Dorcas. That's like... the whole point of a tier list?
Since you didn't address the better axe users yourself, I was thinking of not responding to this, but I will. First, Raven also massively outclasses Dorcas since Raven can uses hand axes on promotion, so that's a wash. All cavs will one day use axes and outperform Dorcas with them, so another wash in the debate. Guy can outperform many people that also use only swords, such as: Karla, Matthew, Legault, Lyn, Eliwood (before he can use a horse because that's op), arguably Karel and Jaffar. Can the same be said for a single better axe user when it comes to Dorcas? Maybe, just maybe, Bartre? But Dart, Hawkeye, Geitz, and obviously Hector, all of them I'd argue outperform Dorcas.
23 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:It is when your other option invalidates your base argument? If he goes into 1 range, he's just a less accurate, slower (and therefore less damaging) unit than Guy with less avoid or true durability.
More like some meaning: Steel Axe, Brave Axe (and with the 2 speed he loses here he nearly negates the point of a Brave weapon), Devil Axe, Halberd, and the Hammer.
23 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:Yeah, but 3 extra defense isn't super useful if you're getting killed in the same number of hits. An additional point of defense is most useful when your defense is already high, which isn't exactly the case for either unit.
Again, Guy only takes an extra hit if he fights any lance users, which are considerably more common than myrmidons or anything of that sword.
Improvise. Adapt. Overcome.
Besides, while their durability matches early on, Dorcas ends up able to take more hits as the game progresses, see my 28x analysis.
The first point we covered already. A combination of a higher stat plus a higher avoid means most of the time Guy will take *more* hits and when it isn't it's the same number Dorcas does.
Guy takes an extra hit fighting any lance users? I felt like you meant to say he gets killed faster against lance users, but it doesn't read that way.
Stonks!
One, we already know your commitment to that durability argument isn't as rigid as you'd have us believe but I think I've covered above enough to show Guy is more durable early on, mid game and possibly even early late game. Yeah man, a 28x analysis, too bad there are like.... 2/3 of the chapters in the game before that in which we have to compare Guy and Dorcas.
23 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:True, Dorcas is more likely to get hit, so he takes more damage overall over several rounds of combat. However, less total damage doesn't translate to better concrete survivability, because Dorcas can still survive more blows landing.
If Guy dies to four hits which each have a 7/10 chance of hitting (assuming I'm understanding you right), that's a 24.01% chance he explodes.
Meanwhile, if Dorcas dies to five hits and gets hit by all four of those incoming attacks...he still survives.Here's a good statement to refute the dodging argument: Consistently good enough is better than inconsistently more than enough.
If Dorcas has such bad avoid, yet can have higher avoid against lance users...what does that say about Guy?
Didn't we already cover that Guy takes either the same number of blows, or *more* than Dorcas does for the majority of the game?
This 24.01% of "explosion" is still lower than Dorcas chance. Didn't we just cover the hits argument? Re-presenting as less accurate doesn't change it.
The "good statement" there implies Guy is already "consistently good enough" and just happens to have the *bonus* of being inconsistently more than enough, which I'd take over someone without that bonus every day of the weak.
Yeah, he has worse avoid than Guy except when he has WTA. Which means he has worse avoid is even further exacerbated when his opponent has WTA. A detail you're glossing over... what does that say about Dorcas?
23 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:Guy has, as you pointed out, +1 base resistance on hard mode and a 10% better growth. With such low resistance as these units have, a little extra isn't worth much.
Imagine a unit with 35 HP and facing enemies with 20 magical attack. If the unit has 5 resistance, they can take three hits. To increase to surviving four hits, you'll need six extra resistance.
Yeah, this argument still ignores who is more likely to be doubled by those incoming magical attacks. Hint.... his name starts with D and has the group of animals "Orcas" in his name.
On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:One luck equals +1 avoid, which isn't an absurd amount and certainly doesn't give Guy such good avoid that he doesn't need to worry about incoming attacks.
Even if Guy and Dorcas are at 20/20, Guy has a luck lead of...4-ish.I have shown there are a couple places where Dorcas can take more than five hits, but I'll throw you a bone. You should keep your units well healed, but...if you're keeping your units well healed and not exposing them to 5+ attacks each turn, then...what good are these durability advantages Guy has? Whether Dorcas or Guy, you heal up and move forward.
Yeah, that luck lead still translates to a avoid lead though. Point Guy.
Ah here we go! Exactly my point before I had to dismiss your durability arguments. I don't particularly care that Guy has a durability advantage, I was only proving that Dorcas didn't have it. Since I see most debates as "accumulating points" in your units favor.
On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:If 7 skill is enough, what's the point of having six more?
Imagine that a unit has enough strength to 2HKO basically every enemy. Yeah, there might be a rare few that survive such consecutive blows and wouldn't if the unit had a little more strength, but ultimately a few more strength doesn't increase the unit's usefulness that much (unless they're now one-hit-KO'ing but skill can't give you 101% hit or anything). They still kill most enemies in two hits.
What's the point of having 7 more skill? (assuming for a moment 7 skill is enough to consistently hit, which I think most people would dismiss in situations without WTA) This handy little calculation is the point Critical Rate = Weapon Critical + (Skill/2) + Support bonus + Crit bonus + S rank bonus. So 6 more points translates to effectively 3 more crit. And obviously it's even more important in the accuracy equation.
Yeah, but skill *can* and does increase crit. So you don't get a 101% hit chance, but does give you a higher chance of a one-hit-KO that you ranted about above.
On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:Yeah, maybe he can hit, but the quote you're responding to with this quote is saying he doesn't double.
On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:Why "especially in 2 RN" ? Dorcas has above 50% hit basically all the time, so his true hit is always better than his displayed hit. In single RN, a 13% chance to miss (once every 7-8 attacks) might actually become an inconvenience, but an 87% is really a 96.75% (one miss every 33 battles or so).
Consistency is good, as stated above. However, the difference between Dorcas's hit and Guy's dodge is that Dorcas's hit is backed by reliable numbers.
Also, failing to hit and an enemy surviving is able to be worked with. Failing to dodge and then dying is not.
"especially in 2 RN" Because it's ridiculously easy for most units to always have an effectively 100% hit rate in it, so units that don't really have to work their way out of that disadvantage.
Comparing Dorcas hit to Guy's dodge is pretty weird when I'm only trying to compare Dorcas' hit to Guy's hit and Dorcas' dodge to Guy's dodge?
See above? Compare the relevant stat to the relevant stat.
On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:Guy is very pretty at evasion, yes.
Lance users are not the only enemies, yes.
However, they are extremely common enemies, easily the most common physical enemies, sometimes making up 40+% of the enemies on the map.
Of the remaining enemies, a fair number are magic users against whom HP is more useful than +2 on top of pitiful resistance.
The point is that if Guy and Dorcas aren't neutral with their enemy, the former is usually at an disadvantage and the latter at an advantage. I compare them in these unfair states because they are very common states for them to be in.
I tried to edit that on literally seconds after I posted and serenes told me my post was locked or something, so yes Guy pretty at evasion XD
40+% implies the majority of enemies are in fact not lances users.
I still disagree with your assessment that higher HP is better than a full two points in the relevant defensive stat especially when the HP stats don't differ that greatly for quite awhile.
This last point is just baffling to me. You control where your units go, the majority of the time your unit will have the advantage against who they face because you plan it to be that way. In which case, Guy outperforms Dorcas if we're going off of what is most common of a state.
On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:Dorcas has consistent access to WTA over lance users without having to use a Lancereaver. Admittedly, you can buy those- at like one armory in the whole game.
You can also get swordreavers there and Dorcas is suddenly fairing much better against those speedy swordies. He even 1HKO's a good number of the unpromoted ones AND gains +30 to the hit and avoid you think so highly of when Guy has it.No doubt the lancereaver is better for Guy than the swordreaver for Dorcas though.
Yeah, CH 24, long before 28x where Dorcas is supposed to become the unstoppable killer you've been saying XD. So you can stock up on them and alleviate any issues that may come up WTA wise.
On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:As for Wyrmslayers, you get one of them. Since the wyrmslayer is not a reaver weapon, Guy has to choose between high avoid versus wyvern units or dealing severe-ish damage (x2 effectiveness and all), so these are partial fixes at best.
Yeah, sorry about that misunderstanding.
Lighter axes? With 14 base con? I don't think so.
Yeah, I'm not recommending Wyrmslayers, I'm just pointing out that the game thought of a balance for those kinds of matchups already.
Totally my bad. Covered the axes above.
On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:Well, you see the thing is, we have the "view map" function before deployment, so Guy only needs to ever have the Armorslayer in his inventory when you can clearly see a need for it. The same can't be said for the hand axes since it's your arguments "default" weapon.
On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:Like I said above, real arguments are won in increments. Even performing better against an "uncommon enemy" type is a point in Guy's favor.
"Better some of the time" while according to your arguments so far "at parity" the rest of the time does mean "much more useful". But Guy already is better for the majority of the game, just statistically speaking.
On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:True, but, you know...them's the breaks, and certain units get availability advantages, just like Lowen has over Geitz.
If the game is going to lock HHM content behind Lyn Mode, I think we should assume Lyn mode. Like, what if you needed to play Lyn's tale in order to recruit Farina? I imagine there wouldn't even be a question, we'd assume you play through it.
I don't think efficient play really cares that much about trying to get "all content" done, it's like the difference between an any% speedrun and an all bosses% speedrun. I think perhaps we should ask side bee what he thinks and anyone else who is wanting to be more involved in the debate community their opinions on allowing it, but I'm still with Mekkah myself. (Maybe we should even have a debate on Lyn Mode v. No Lyn Mode)
On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:15 is half of 30, and Killer Weapons have decent stats all around, even beyond their crit chance.
Not only 15% crit, but only +15% crit compared to what he normally has. That obviously wasn't enough of an advantage for you to bring up independently of the Swordmaster bonus, so I assumed we agreed it was negligible. Two negligible things together are not necessarily a substantial thing.
Yes, 15 is half of 30 thank you, but pair that killer weapon with that 15 bonus and suddenly you're at 45. Then consider the critical rate equation, then realize that with that set up Guy is critting over 50% of the time. And realize it's close to 25+% when he isn't weilding a killer weapon. 1/4 chance of doing 3x damage on each hit and hitting more often than Dorcas seems pretty substantial to me.
On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:Gambling isn't cool, kids. If your strategy depends on getting a 30% critical, then if has a 49% chance to fail. He is statistically doing a lot of damage with those crits, but one crit every four attacks does not mean a crit on an attack where you actually need it.
That's an unfair comparison- Guy is one unit with a +15% critical hit chance, which is quite different from 30+ units with a +15% critical hit chance.
Take ( 1 - 0.15 ) = 0.85 vs. (0.85)^15 to see how vastly different those two scenarios really are.
49% of failure implies a 51% of success, incredibly higher than any gambling. That's like FE 101, make your riskiest attacks first (like when you want a lucky crit) so you can plan contigencies afterwards.
It's unfair in order to point out how ridiculous it is to dismiss free bonus crit chance, of which Dorcas doesn't get in his promotion.
Also... just like mathematically speaking (.85)^15 is smaller than .85.... (.85)^15 is only like 0.09ish. But I think I understood your actual meaning.
On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:Guy will be dealing some decent damage...to one enemy.
Player phase combat is just worse than mixed / enemy phase combat, because player phase combat is effectively one action while enemy phase combat is several.
Guy's 1-range lock might not be as severe as archers' 2-range lock, but it's a similar issue. He can do more than enough against one enemy, rather than good enough against several.
Guy's clear time will be equal to the number of ranged enemies he faces, no matter how good he is at not getting killed by them. He's getting attacked by enemies that could instead be getting counter attacked and killed and removed from the equation of threatening other units, like the healers you'll want to be keeping front line fighters healthy.
The first statement is just factually incorrect, he deals damage to one enemy on player phase (like ya know, every single unit in your army), but not every enemy unit has access to 1-2 range, so it's much more likely he's hitting as many units as you allow to reach him on enemy phase. <-- this covers the 2nd statement and third statement is just a repeat of the first.
Lucky for Guy though, you don't clear most maps with only 1 unit especially in effective play, and you can actually knock out a lot of the 1-2 range threats to guy with your cavaliers because of their superior movement (this is true for Dorcas and Guy) while your infantry are dealing with the bulk frontliners.
On 8/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:The reason Dorcas has a better Blows Dealt vs. Blows Received ratio isn't because of hit rates, which I am a little done with saying are good for Dorcas (especially considering this is my last post). The reason is because, of course, 1-2 range. Each 2 range foe increases Guy's "received" counter without increasing his "dealt" counter, while both go up for Dorcas.
Well one, Dorcas hit rate is still factually lower than Guys, regardless of whether or not Dorcas hit is "good enough", therefore his Blows Dealt will be lower before considering 1-2 range, then throw in Guy's higher speed meaning Guy is more likely to double his opponent so even more Blows Dealt over Dorcas. Then when we consider Blows Received Dorcas has it worse because of his worse avoid stat meaning he's taking more hits than Guy, then of course his speed is lower so now add even more hits over Guy to Blows Received. So both sides of that equation look worse for Dorcas before we take into account his ability to do 1-2 range combat, the problem there is it'll also be exposing him to more possible hits, so at best it's a wash in the Blows Dealt to Blows Received and at worst it increases his Blows Received to unredeemable levels. Leaving Guy the clear winner in an argument over Blows Dealt vs. Blows Received ratios
To my closing argument then
Here are some calculation equations that Guy has a ridiculous/normal advantage on, like for instance avoid which is much higher than just the bonus he's getting from his Luck stat being better.
Avoid = (Attack Speed x 2) + Luck + Support bonus + Terrain bonus + Tactician bonus That's right, avoid cares about your AS , and we all know Guy is superior there.
Staff avoid = (Resistance x 5) + (Distance from enemy x 2) Remember Guy's superior Resistance from earlier, turns out the 2 Res is extremely important in the above. Who is more likely to be beserked or sleeped? Dorcas
Accuracy = Weapon Hit + (Skill x 2) + (Luck / 2) + Support bonus + Weapon Triangle bonus + S Rank bonus + Tactician bonus
We all saw that one coming, but I won't beat on that drum anymore.
Critical rate = Weapon Critical + (Skill / 2) + Support bonus + Critical bonus + S Rank bonus Critical evade = Luck + Support bonus + Tactician bonus Not only does Guy have a vastly higher Critical Rate , but a higher Critical evade.
And these are just the ones I think are worth mentioning, many more give Guy the advantage as well.
So to recap, we have on the one hand. A more interesting, faster, stronger, higher crit rate and avoid unit.
On the other we have someone with 1-2 range with mediocre speed and a "passable" hit rate.
An easy decision. Vote Guy
for Presidentfor better unit.****
Had a great time in this debate @AnonymousSpeed hope you did as well. Thanks again for the invitation and the attempt to keep the debates going.
To anyone else that decided to view this debate. If you're interested at all let us know. I'll take any debate, with any pairing within reason in any of the GBA/3DS FEs and obviously the Tellius series. Start flexing your debate muscles now for when everyone has finally finished Three Houses
-
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:
It's a pleasure, and don't worry. I try not to take offense even with people who argue Karla is better than Dorcas, as a matter of principle.
Yeahhhh those people, yikes.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:True, but they do grow in shops. Like, a lot of shops. Like the armories in chapters 13, 16, 18, 21, 24, 26, and 31x.
Ok, let's assume for a moment that you're buying hand axes every time you shop. They have 20 uses and cost 300 gold a pop. How much money are we spending on hand axes just to give Dorcas "kind of" perpetual 1-2 range? And it isn't like you're saying Dorcas should only have hand axes across all his items slots, since you've already made arguments for him to have a vulnerary and a 1 range weapon to manipulate the way the AI attacks.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:Let's look at Chapter 23... Let's say Dorcas has gained around 14 levels, a reasonable number, and has also promoted. This puts him 16 strength, or 23 attack with a hand axe. That's still enough to 2-3 HKO the vast majority of enemies on the map. Even the reasonably bulky sword cavaliers, who have weapon triangle over Dorcas, are 2HKO'd by a Dorcas with a mere two strength above that.
So we give Dorcas 14 levels and a promotion item for him to be able to do something over half way through the game? Not to mention this 14 levels thing seems like an arbitrary number picked only to prove your point. Going to talk more about this, but it's pretty standard in efficient playthroughs to promote as early as possible since it brings the most benefit at the quickest pace. That means only 7 levels for both Guy and Dorcas.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:Guy, also promoted and with 14 extra levels, has 14 strength and a weaker, worse weapon type.
Yes, sword locked is worse than axe locked everyone understands this in the community, but it doesn't make or break unit viability. Let's take Raven v. Dorcas for example, Raven is sword locked until hero, but his mercenary combat outpaces a giant portion of the cast for large chunks of the game. Guy is just "Raven-lite" in this scenario and often will be wielding a higher might weapon than hand axes.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:This is around the point where Wyvern Riders are added to massive list of lance-wielding enemies your party must contend with.
Yes, units have other classes they're naturally weaker against? Wrymslayer and Lancereaver still exist though.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:Dorcas is 2HKO'ing most wyvern riders with Steel Axe, 3HKO'ing all of them with Hand Axe while countering Javelin throwers on enemy phase.
Guy is 3HKO'ing your average rider as well...with a Steel Sword, so good luck dealing with those Javelin tossers.Yeah, unfortunately, every time you switch Dorcas to a 1 range weapon, it takes away a huge advantage of being axe locked so first point is fairly irrelevant. We're also not talking about how many rounds of combat it takes Dorcas to get to 2 or 3 hits in order to KO them. Since well, that Steel Axe technically slightly weights down an unpromoted Dorcas. So often even when he can 1-2 range, he's still having to engage in just as many rounds of combat as Guy is, if not more.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:Strength +1, but axes have more than 1 might over their equivalent sword counterparts. 8 might iron axe versus 5 might iron sword, 11 might steel axe versus 8 might steel sword, 7 might hand axe versus...what, exactly?
Every time you reference a 1 range axe, it blows the core of your argument out. I'm considering only the hand axe as your viable weapon since it's 1-2 range is the core of your argument. The other axes don't make your point, some weigh Dorcas down, AND as all axes are they are less accurate than swords. All the other axes with all their power which does exaggerate Dorcas' 1 real strength (his strength), but also shows you his incredible weakness in skill and speed.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:Six skill is nice, but I think your assumptions about Dorcas's hit are a bit exaggerated. Let's look at the Steel Bow nomads of the mid-game. Even though they're weighed down, they're still some of the dodgiest enemies you're fighting, and they made a good, triangle-neutral foe to measure Dorcas and Guy against. Assuming they have 18 avoid, our mid-game averages and their performance against them are as follows:
Dorcas with 14 skill and 8 luck, or 92 hit with hand axe (74 displayed / ~87 true hit) and 107 hit with an iron axe (89 displayed / ~98 true hit), hardly a missaholic.6 skill is the difference between Dorcas base skill being at 1 or 7. Very clear which is better there and how incredibly different those hit chances would be.
These Dorcas stats are unrealistic for efficient play, assuming you're playing efficiently you should probably promote Dorcas as quickly as possible meaning level 10. So a promoted Dorcas from level 10 would have roughly 12 skill and 6 luck. Turns out his hit chances aren't as good as they're being presented here, at least a bit a missaholic anonymous situation.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:+2 luck and +1 res aren't even worth boasting about.
Hardly boasting, just pointing them out. Especially the Res because Guy's growth rate is higher and hard mode he starts higher, so he'll pretty much always stay higher in this stat than Dorcas. Luck is actually extremely important in the context of durability as well, since you've claimed that Guy is "dodge reliant" "luckily" (please make me lose based on this pun) for me luck increases evasion by 1 for each point of it (and less important for this particular part of my argument hit rate) and Guy stays ahead in this stat throughout the levels with or without hard mode bonuses.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:Until well after hand axes are buyable, everything is better on Marcus.
The vulnerary point would be great if this was FE4, but thankfully for Dorcas you can trade items like vulnerabilities pretty easily.
I think we might need to reexamine who the better axe users are in the game before we even consider Dorcas then.
Word.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:I have already addressed your complaints with Dorcas's accuracy in discussing Guy's hard mode stats.
Hardly, as addressed above, the stats you presented for Dorcas were unrealistic given efficient play.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:You aren't exactly lacking in axe access, though. Why not use two superior units instead of one superior unit and an inferior unit? You aren't limited to just one axe user.
Yes exactly! Why not use almost every other axe user over Dorcas and keep Guy for the enemies those axe users struggle against?
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:Around Chapter 15, enemies tend to have around 14 attack. Guy is taking 8 damage per hit, so his base 25 HP goes down in four hits, and just one lance user adds the one HP necessary to kill him in three hits. Dorcas is taking a little more damage, but he's got enough HP that his durability matches even if he faces a squad of lancers.
Ok, we're talking base Guy here, so let's talk base Dorcas in this context. "A little more damage" is 3 more damage per hit (totaling our per hit damage to 11), and Dorcas only has 30HP. So, he goes down in.... 3 hits rather than Guy's four, not to mention this appears by your math, to be before considering any sword users coming his way. Even leveling Dorcas up to 10, giving him the grace of 7 levels we aren't giving Guy. He still takes the same number of hits as Guy from an average enemy. This is before we consider Guy's higher evasion, speed, and hit chance.
Not to mention, you've gone from "Dorcas is more durable than Guy" to "his durability matches"
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:Around Chapter 23, where enemies have about 20 attack and our boys have these stats, based on the aforementioned averages:
Dorcas: 44 HP / 9 Def
Guy: 39 HP / 10 Def
Lance emblem is in full effect by now, so Dorcas is actually taking less damage in many circumstances while having more HP. With each unit taking around 10 damage a hit, Dorcas comes out with more reliable durability by this point.Unfortunately, the aforementioned averages are a bit weird to use on an efficient run, but let's role with them for now, but we should throw luck in the mix here. If Guy has say a 3/10 chance of every hit missing (before we take enemy luck into account) and Dorcas has a 1/10 chance of every hit missing (same) then is it accurate to say Dorcas is statistically more likely to take less damage?
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:Around Chapter 28x (i.e nearly end game), we'll assume each has gained 20 levels and promoted.
Dorcas: 49 HP / 11 Def
Guy: 45 HP / 11 Def
Againt, WTA vs. lance users gives Dorcas a slight defensive edge in addition to having superior HP. Enemy attack can vary pretty significantly here, so it's a bit harder to measure hits taken overall. We'll look at individual enemy types instead. Wyvern Riders 3HKO Guy and 4HKO Dorcas. Pegasus Knights 7HKO Guy and 10HKO Dorcas. Steel bow archers 5HKO Guy and 6HKO Dorcas.Again, see above about Luck. As for everything beyond Wyvern riders, if we're in a position where any character is taking 5+ hits without healing in between, that character is probably dying either way, unless you believe strongly in their evasion/combat overall.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:Now for some more miscellaneous durability points:
Dorcas and Guy have pretty comparable resistance (pretty neck and neck honestly), so HP is more meaningful when taking hits from mages. Dorcas has more HP and can counter hit mages on enemy phase.
Let's also talk how 1-2 range helps Dorcas with damage control, further bolstering his durability and your team's durability. Enemies don't like getting countered, so a 1-range locked Guy is a juicy target to javelin throwers, archers, and mages. Dorcas can discourage enemies from attacking him by actually being able to counter. He also has the option to go 1-range and draw fire if needed. The ability to manipulate how much the enemy wants to attack Dorcas allows you to run better damage control across your entire front line.
Comparable in a way that Guy will on average have ~2.25 more Res (or greater) than Dorcas throughout almost all their level ups beyond initial base stats and some earlier levels. So hard to say HP matters more especially when attacked by multiple mages of varying magic and speed stats.
Kind of addressed this manipulating the enemy argument earlier, but a 1-range locked unit like Guy, can still very easily manipulate the AI to target him away from other vulnerable, weaker 1-2 / 2 range allies.... like say, Dorcas.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:With regards to healers: Sure, let Dorcas get healed by another unit. He can counter an enemy on their attack and finish them on his own, then hit more counter attacks later, potentially killing a multitude of enemies. Good strategic advice, thank you.
Change this to "potentially damage" a multitude of enemies since he will almost never double throughout most of the game.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:He's probably hitting for more than a couple points less than Dorcas as well. Accounting for weapon triangle, Guy has a 7 might steel sword and Dorcas has an 8 might hand axe, but Dorcas has double Guy's strength growth. That +1 base strength is gone pretty quickly, Dorcas gets a point of strength roughly every two levels instead of roughly every 3-4.
Yes, but you see, when you hit twice almost every combat instead of once almost every combat. You end up doing double the damage! So even if Guy hits for say, 15 damage at a time when Dorcas hits for 25; Guy does more actual damage. Not to mention, even if this wasn't true Guy has a secret weapon to combat this that we'll get too...
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:Having to use a Lancereaver means not using a killer weapon, silver weapon or 1-2 range weapon Guy doesn't have. They also aren't exactly common swords, so Guy is still eating WTD most of the time.
Even if he's hitting, it's hurting his dodge chance. Let's, again, take those mid-game stats I laid out earlier. Guy will have 51 - 15 = 36 avoid versus lance wielders. Dorcas will have 26 + 15 = 41 avoid versus lance wielders. So there are a fair share of scenarios where Dorcas is actually out-dodging Guy, further compounded by his flexible range letting him strike from forests even if foes are not adjacent to them.
Further, 2 RN helps Dorcas quite a bit as well. He has a chance to miss but he still hits fairly reliably.This post is interesting, mentioning killing weapons when you later on dismiss a 15% crit chance, huh.
Again, these stats are inaccurate to efficient play, so not sure what to even say to this that I haven't already, but comparing only the people Guy has a disadvantage in combat with that Dorcas has an advantage in combat with is pretty misleading in general about who is pretty at evasion in general. Yes lance wielders are common, but far from the only unit in the game still.
If we're trying to mitigate RNG in general in any run let alone efficiently, any chance to miss is near unacceptable especially in 2 RN.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:So, I looked through the HHM enemy stats thread I posted earlier, and unless it's mistaken, there isn't a single cavalier even on HHM that doubles base Dorcas. Even on chapter 28x, the number of enemies who break 10 AS is like, eleven*. Most of them do so by such a small margin that even Dorcas will have likely gained enough speed to not get doubled by them.
Yeah, this I have to say was me misunderstanding (slash being blind). I thought you were saying units with 10 speed were rare, when you were talking about AS. Which is incredibly different. However, even in this argument it nearly locks Dorcas to the lighter axes for the entire game to mitigate the chance of being doubled. And with his laughable 20% speed growth, who knows.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:Dorcas can one round knights without having to equip a weapon specifically dedicated to knights. This ain't FE6, the Armorslayer isn't a decent general purpose weapon, and it only has double effectiveness anyway.
Guy doesn't necessarily need an Armorslayer either, I'm just pointing to a near guaranteed option for him if the issue comes up. After all, crit chance exists. But we aren't there yet.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:* - One of those enemies has a poison sword, so go ahead and make your mutton jokes.
I would never joke about something as serious as.... XD
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:Speedy swordsmen are enemies you'll want to take down from a distance (because swords have pitiful 1-2 range options) or with lances (which neither Guy nor Dorcas can use so it's a mute point). Guy isn't the optimal choice for dealing with the units who double Dorcas either, so failing slightly less doesn't make him that much more useful.
Speedy swordsmen being taking down from a distance by who? Not Dorcas, he'd miss, never double, and then be killed by them on enemy phase. Archers? Not a possibility if you care about unit quality or turn count. So yes lance users with Javelins or mages. OR if you're in need of them elsewhere you get another tactical option in Guy who can at the very least trade one for one and at the most outright kill these opponents. You can't say the same in this situation for Dorcas. Making Guy much more useful.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:Is it? Wow. That's a bit objectionable, we should change it in our reconsideration of the rules.
Yeah in the original rules. However, I believe the original rule creator Mekkah had decent logic behind it that goes something like this (if he ever sees this or anyone familiar with the time period sees this and wants to correct me please do): Every unit can be good with grinding, so things like arena abuse are out, which also causes Lyn mode to be out since it's essentially a tutorial of the game which makes later chapters easier because it allows you to grind. Lyn mode causes units like Kent and Sain (who are already good) to completely outshine (/ make look like poop) a really good unit like Lowen just because they got 8 extra chapters to grind.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:Yeah, that huge +15 crit bonus is a real reliable, meaningful bonus to combat ability. Dealing triple damage 15% of the time is a real doozy, especially compared to actually dealing damage 90% of the time.
Well, it isn't like he doesn't deal damage the other 85% of the time (it also isn't like he'll *only* have that 15% so it's a bit higher than I'm presenting later in this comment)
He'll often be dealing *at least* the same amount as Dorcas thanks to his decent strength and ability to double. Crit chance just gives him a 3/10 chance of doing triple damage on 1 of his 2 hits in a round of combat. Going from *at least* the same amount as Dorcas, to "way more than Dorcas can ever do statistically".
If you think +15 crit isn't huge, let's do a romhack of FE7 and I'll give EVERY enemy +15 to crit on hard mode. Let me know how it goes.
On 8/2/2019 at 2:44 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:Now, to end, I'd like to do more math for showing why 1-2 range > doubling, if one has to choose.
Guy and Dorcas can each take 3 hits, that seems safe to say, so we'll say they jump in range of three enemies. Guy might be killing one or two on enemy phase, but any enemy with a two range option he has to approach, so he's taking an additional turn to clear that squad for every 2-range enemy he faces. Dorcas handles that squad in the same number of turns regardless. He doesn't spend any time getting pecked to death by throwing toothpicks while braiding his hair. Even taking the same number of hits, Dorcas still has a better Blows Dealt to Blows Received ratio than Guy does.
Yes they *can* both take 3 hits, but who is *more likely* to take those hits? And no, if Dorcas doesn't double and Guy does, it'll almost certainly end up taking them the same number of turns as Dorcas will either have to wait to counter again or will need to engage on player phase himself just like Guy.
I don't think this last statement is accurate especially when you consider real hit and avoid.
-
Before I get into crushing your arguments here XD, I'd just like to thank you @AnonymousSpeed for trying to keep the debate community active and for the invitation! I can already tell this is going to be an interesting one. I plan on being a bit spicier than normal, so I hope I don't offend.
2 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:So, I was planning to start with debate with a brief excerpt on the character of Dorcas. However, going back over his supports, I found out that he's...kinda boring. He's level headed, he fights for his wife, and that's noble and all, but not terribly compelling. So we'll just talk about him and axes now.
I mean... point Guy? No, I'll go into more detail.
Obviously Guy is from Sacae an area that gets very little representation this time around, but got much more in the previous game. He has one of the best supports Matthew has (and I don't wish to spoil that, everyone should see it on their own if they like Matthew as a character). He also serves as an excellent foil for Rath to one day accept leadership of the Kutolah tribe, as a Karel as a worthy opponent in due time, and somewhat a surrogate son to Louise. He fulfills the anime awkward "guy" role in his support with Priscilla.
Let's move on to some of the misinterpretations of facts presented.
3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:Dorcas has 1-2 range. Ergo, I win.
So does Guy, just not as consistently. However, this isn't Sacred Stones. Hand Axes and Tomahawks don't grow on trees. Dorcas doesn't have perpetual 1-2 range like you'd have us all believe. Even if it was true, he'd be stuck with 7 mt hand axes the majority of the game which side bee pretty effectively pegged me on in the Garcia v. Lute debate.
3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:Before you click off, let me explain a bit. Guy with hard mode bonuses has a statistical edge over Dorcas.
More like *drastic* statistical edge. Str +1, Skl +6, Spd +7, Lck +2, Def +3, and Res +1 that's more than the bonuses Dorcas or Guy get on promotion. The only stat he's better in is HP and it's only by +5. Which starts to break down the unit durability argument, but we'll get to that later.
3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:Dorcas with a Hand Axe is able to 2-3HKO most enemies in the early chapters with bases alone. You can do is plop him on a forest with a vulnerary and a hand axe and let him go to work. With his monstrous HP stat
Where is he getting this initial hand axe? Bartre? Wouldn't that hand axe be better on Markus in an efficient playthrough? Minor point, but a vulnerary he doesn't start with unlike Guy.
Is his HP stat "monstrous" if it's only 5 HP higher than HHM Guy? His growth rate in HP is also only 5% higher than Guys. This "durability" argument really needs to be examined a bit more.
Also, Dorcas *maybe* can 2-3HKO most enemies in the early chapters, *IF* he can actually hit. With his drastically lower skill, and using axes which are much more inaccurate (especially the hand axe!), I'm betting Guy is far more consistent rounding enemies on enemy phase even without HHM bonuses.3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:This means he can take on a group of 3-4 enemies, survive, heal up (or retreat and get healed if he's wounded enough), repeat once or twice, boom. Work done.
More like repeat until Dorcas actually hits. And yet another issue with the durability argument crops up here we'll cover below.
3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:How does Guy compare in a similar situation?
Well, unless he's only facing one range enemies, he's going to have to actually initiate on player phase. That's a turn he can't be using a vulnerary, so while a wounded Dorcas is still productive, a wounded Guy draws a "Lose A Turn" card from the monopoly man. He might also have to exit advantageous terrain to engage, which is pretty bad for a couple of reasons. Having to lose out on 1 defense / 20 avoid from a forest sucks already, but for someone with a dodge-reliant defense like Guy, it's extra bad.
Not only is the 1-range lock of a swords an issue, so is their weak power.
Lot of issues here, so let's take them as they come in order to show how Guy *actually* compares. First, using a vulnerary on your turn for a non-mounted unit is often sub-optimal if we're assuming efficient play, let your healers be your healers and let your attackers be your attackers (why can't your friends be your friends and your workers be your workers). Second, Guy is as you put it "dodge reliant" for his defense, yet has 3 more base defense than Dorcas, I'll take the higher dodge chance plus higher defense every day of the week.
Swords in general have weaker power than axes, but if you're proposing that Dorcas should almost always have a hand axe equipped this argument falls apart pretty quickly with the 7 mt on a hand axe. Almost every sword above iron beats this out or equals it.
3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:Remember how I said base Dorcas could kill most enemies in two to three hits with a Hand Axe? Well, base Guy with an Iron Sword isn't even 2HKO'ing low level Pegasus knights.
This scenario is pretty much a complete fabrication that disregards the fact that there aren't even Peg Knights in the chapter Guy shows up and the idea you'd force him to use iron only. With base HHM Guy having an extra strength over base Dorcas he'll be hitting for only 1 or two less against these Pegasus Knights (and he'll actually be hitting).
3 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:True, Guy could use a Steel Sword to alleviate some of this, but his low con means he's losing 5 speed from that, so he needs several levels of speed just to actually have his supposed main advantage over Dorcas, doubling.
Let's keep this in mind when you start mentioning other axes as options for Dorcas. But even with this being true, if Guy gets only 2 more points of speed (so essentially two, not really *several*, level ups for Guy) he's doubling Dorcas and people Dorcas can't double, again.
4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:The prevalence of lance wielding fliers, infantry, and cavalry in FE7 is ridiculous. This is great news for Dorcas, who now hits quite consistently. Again looking at critical early chapters, ~80 hit against lance wielders by default is pretty good with 2RN, and his accuracy will improve faster than their avoid.
For Guy, this is very bad news. Being a member of a class that relies on dodging, it's not cool to constantly face -15 avoid. When the unit who faces -15 avoid and must choose between healing and fighting each turn, it is extra not cool. It also worsens his offense slightly.
Yes, HHM has tons of lance users to balance things for Hector being your main lord. However, the Lancereaver exists and even without it, with weapon triangle disadvantage Guy is hitting *every* time especially in 2RN, where Dorcas in 2RN still has chances to miss somehow with weapon triangle advantage. Not to mention, the prevalence of better axe wielders on your team (Like the aforementioned Hector) means every resource you put towards Dorcas is a resource you took away from those better users of axes.
Going back to this old well again, yes Myrmidons and Swordmasters often are less durable than other classes and thus rely on avoid, but in the case Dorcas V. Guy, Guy has better avoid *and* better defensive stats. At base, at level 10, at level 20, and at promotion. Only late into their promotions does this stop being true, and shouldn't the journey to that late into promotion matter much much more? Also, again, "let your healers be your healers and your fighters be your fighers".
4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:Let's continue to discuss durability. Guy's durability is marginally above Lyn's, which is good. However, while Dorcas is tanking 3-4 hits with regular working man stats, even Hard Mode Guy is only taking 3 hits. Dorcas will be gaining more HP and defense as the game goes on than Guy will, letting him take on even more enemies and bear even more blows at once.
If Guy's durability is "marginally above" Lyn's I can't imagine what you'll say about a unit with 3 less defense than Guy has.... wait Dorcas has 3 less defense than Guy and you're saying he's more durable.... huh? Average stats on Serenes Forest itself (taking into account hard mode bonuses) can disprove the idea that Dorcas will be getting more defense for the majority of the game.
5 more HP is worse than 3 more defense and I don't think anyone would argue against that and it's before we ever talk about avoid.4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:Now, let's talk about Dorcas's speed, the thing everyone likes to complain about with him. It's not even that bad. He doesn't double, true. However, 1-2 range still means his combat is more efficient than Guy's. His 6 base speed is enough not to get doubled by most enemies even if it never improves. Most enemies in the very last chapters of the game don't even break the 10 AS needed to double base Dorcas. It's even enough to double knights and soldiers, which doesn't sound like a lot but at least Dorcas is 2HKO'ing these enemies while Guy isn't.
Some very fast enemies might double Dorcas, such as myrmidons and mercenaries. However, even even an un-weighed-down Guy isn't doubling those enemies. Dorcas isn't even doubled by nomads until like chapter 17, and unlike Guy he can counter then on enemy phase. You can also just...keep Dorcas out of range of these enemies, which is probably what you'd want to do with Guy too.
Ok, at this point, I have to question if we are talking about the same game. 10 isn't "very fast" for enemies in FE7 and 6 base speed definitely gets you doubled by a large number of enemies like speedy lance cavs and fliers. And the idea that not doubling is okay because he can 1-2 range more often is a little much, just because someone can 1-2 range doesn't mean we should expect less of them in combat. "Even enough to double knights and soldiers" is like saying it's enough to double enemies on the tutorial maps. Doubtful that Guy wouldn't 2HKO a soldier, but maybe the knight you'd have a point if the armorslayer didn't exist.
Change "might" to "definitely will every time" in the above, in the case of Guy though, an un-weighed down base Guy true, but a couple of levels are going to change that especially when you're saying 10 AS is rare. If Dorcas is getting doubled, I doubt many players are worried about him being able to counter, his life is probably gone if he's being doubled by more than like 2 units.4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:Lastly, Dorcas can get Lyn mode levels while Guy cannot. It's a small advantage, but since you have to play through Lyn mode to get all the HHM chapters, it's certainly one Dorcas is likely to have. He can easily get a level or two (not unlikely to yield some strength, skill, and HP) without cutting too much into the EXP pile for your cavaliers.
This whole statement is pretty much irrelevant if we're abiding by the old rules where Lyn Mode is explicitly banned. But you're technically correct. If I have to address it though, even if he gets 2 levels he'll still be behind base Guy in every stat but HP on Hard Mode including defense.
Let me leave you with these thoughts:
Guy's growths are better than Dorcas' growths based on one thing alone, the stat Guy wants more of (Strength) is at 30%, while the one Dorcas desperately needs more of (Speed) is at a laughable 20% (and this is before we consider who has the advantage in growths overall, that being.... Guy).
Every round of combat you use Dorcas in takes equipment (and exp but irrelevant) from better axe users.
We haven't even got to crits yet.
-
Dorcas v. Guy is fine with me. You want first post?
-
This pretty effectively kills FE Debates under the proper debate "designation". No voting topic thread so that would have to be reestablished in general, no rules thread for newbies so that would have to be reestablished in general, and no challenges thread.
-
Never mind, found the frankly sad two sentences about it in announcements.
-
I was hoping someone could point me to the thread justifying why the FE Debate area got thrown into the graveyard; I'd really appreciate it. If that doesn't exist perhaps a short explanation here would be good? It's literally the reason I came to these forums and I was having a few productive and fun debates.
Thank You!
-
On 7/25/2019 at 12:43 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:
I'm feeling like a debate about featuring an axe user, maybe Dorcas or Dart. Who would you put around that tier? Guy, Renault- I'm not so familiar with the FE7 tiers.
Well Dart is vastly above the others in this list imo. The problem is Dorcas and Guy are almost two tiers from each other and Renault is almost never used do to horrible availability. If you're looking to do Dart.... putting him against like Hawkeye, Jaffar, or even like Harken would be comparable. Dorcas I'm not even sure who could go up against him fairly, most tier lists have like 6 units below him.
-
On 7/18/2019 at 6:35 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:
So.
side bee debated CannedCaineghis about FE8.
Then side bee debated me about FE6.
Hey @CannedCaineghis, want to debate FE7?
It's the only logical conclusion. Who are we looking at as match up candidates?
-
On 7/15/2019 at 3:51 PM, side bee said:
My vote goes to side bee. I think the "availability" argument brought up really brought into question how much availability a unit needs to be considered good. Athos is good right? But he has one chapter. Caineghis is good but you only get him for the tower. So in LTC or efficient playthroughs we have to look at long term contribution (or how impactful / game changing their short term contribution is). I think the consistency Percival will bring outweighs the utility Nime would bring when you could've already had someone doing mostly what she does. Although if they started in the same chapter, I'd feel differently about the whole debate.
-
5 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:
I had an idea for Niime vs. Percival, in which I was planning to stick up for Niime, but if you have any particular challenge you'd like to undertake, let me hear it.
Hmmmm, another physical v magic unit debate. I'd kind of like to see side bee tackle this one since they were just on the other "side" of that kind of debate. Curious how they'd handle the other end. If side bee doesn't show up in another day with comment consider me in and I'd like to cede the first post
.
-
10 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:
Oh hey, is this coming back?
I'd like to argue about FE6, if anyone is interested.
Hopefully it is.
I'm happy to take up the gauntlet. Any challenge in particular?
-
side bee and I's FE8 debate on Garcia and Lute wrapped up, so I'm still looking for any debates in FE9 and 10. My topics for FE9 are Nephenee v. Devdan, Lethe v. Ranulf, Gatrie v. Brom, or even Mia v. Ilyana. FE10, I'm willing to take most any character match up if we put Haar, Jill and the Laguz lords in a tier of their own.
-
This topic is ready for a vote.
-
Before going further, I'd once again like to emphasize that Sacred Stones is a *very* easy FE and as such, speed becomes mostly irrelevant in the game very quickly as once a certain benchmark is met every unit will be able to double throughout the game. The only time Garcia might have trouble is early game which I've addressed. If for some reason he gets speed screwed the Garm addresses his late game speed and going Hero to sacrifice *some* power will combat his mid-game speed.
13 hours ago, side bee said:this is true, but then, neither is garcias attack lead. in the early game, enemies actually have just enough defense more than they have res to where lute and garcias effective might against them is basically the same. this is one instance where high con is actually more useful than speed, although thats only because lute and garcia start with the same base speed, and lute is weighed down by fire. but the difference is her speed, and the might of tomes, will grow a hell of a lot faster than garcias con, which only grows on promo, and the might of handaxes, which never changes.
While it's true that the hand axe might never changes, the tomahawk exists in Sacred stones and it isn't true that axes might is outclassed by tomes, especially when you consider weapons like (every other axe). The highest might tome is bolting with 20 mt, but that has what 5 uses? Not exactly going to have that consistently, the next highest is Fimbulvetr at 13 (if we're not counting S rank weapons). What "tier" of axe can compete with this A rank tome? The tomahawk, swordslayer, battle axe, devil axe, and silver axe have might equal to or higher than (most listed are here) Fimbulvetr. Meaning if Garcia ever combats in 1 range he'll easily outpace Lutes power in combat, but he can also do it in 1-2 range with the tomahawk throughout more of the game since these axes will almost all come earlier than Fimbulvetr. This is before considering that nearly all of his weapon choices won't weigh him down, which can't be said of Lute.
13 hours ago, side bee said:his base speed matches that of a level one unit's base speed; this level one's, in fact. lute and garcia start off tied in speed, but if we compare 10/1 stats, assuming promo occurs right away, lute has had 9 levels to grow in speed, and is sitting pretty at just about 12 speed, where garcia gets 6 levels, will on average have roughly 8 speed before promo, and, since
It's true that he's par with a level 1 unit in 1 stat, but considering he's a level 4 unit it isn't like they're supposed to start worlds apart, although many of Garcia's other stats as mentioned above would suggest that. Lute having to grow 9 levels is a detriment to the rest of your team, I'm more than willing for a unit to be slightly slower (in FE8) in order to make sure 3 levels are allocated to the rest of my team. And while I believe Warrior is the best choice for Garcia to go, if we're designing him specifically to combat Lute (which we aren't), he'll do better against her with Garm than she'll do in reverse with Excalibur so the speed gain from Hero isn't necessary as you seem to be implying by showcasing them 4 speed apart.
13 hours ago, side bee said:easier ways to combat poor speed being read as speedwings, those are a far cry from the uncontested quality of hero crests. many, many units want those speedwings more than garcia, lute included. many units like lute can easily double provided the small boost a single speedwing provides, where garcia just cant see quite as much use from it.
Well, as discussed Speedwings aren't the only way to combat poor speed, but assuming they are for a moment. No unit in Sacred Stones needs the speedwings to double, they could easily sit in the convoy unused with every other stat booster. However, that's a waste of a perfectly good stat booster, so between Lute and Garcia who benefits more from using it? According to your argument throughout this discussion Lute is so vastly superior to Garcia in speed she can basically double everything her and Garcia would come across throughout the game, so Garcia is the clear winner of who benefits more from the speedwings since his speed is nearly his only weakness (the other being that he's unmounted of course).
13 hours ago, side bee said:axes are generally less accurate than tomes. that really puts a damper on garcias combat.
It would, *if* his skill didn't consistently outpace Lute's therefore keeping his accuracy on par.
13 hours ago, side bee said:but theres still a point to be made there; lutes promo benefits your whole army, garcias promo really only benefits garcia. lutes promo gives her canto, it gives her the ability to wield the warp staff, it lets her heal. granted, the warp staff requires some degree of investment into lute, but no amount of investment into garcia will ever let him use any staff, let alone warp, and no amount of dropping will ever quite reach that same level of efficiency that lute enjoys as a result of her prospective warp access.
No, Garcia's promo also benefits the entire army, he gets better defensive stats and a higher damage output (and speed if you go Hero) making his combat better and his ability to wall sections of enemy units off even better than it was before. Lute's promotion does give canto (though the nerfed version, we aren't talking FE9 and 10 canto here) and access to staves (not access to warp out of the gate) which require Lute to be essentially benched as a staff bot until her staff rank is raised, where is Garcia at during that? On the frontlines helping you finish the chapter actively. Not to mention, there are better users of the warp staff than Lute since they will have their staff ranks high enough by the time you get a warp staff, making Lute at best a 2nd warper and at worst someone wasting turns and promotion items to become something she isn't the best at being.
13 hours ago, side bee said:garcias combat is not really gonna outclass lutes by any signifcant margin, if it does at all.
The point that it's in question at all between a physical and non-physical unit is a point in Garcia's favor.
13 hours ago, side bee said:she will very easily double more often than garcia, the hatchet, as previously stated, doesnt actually make garcia faster, and the +5 speed from garm should not be super necessary.
s-rank weapons are kinda weird to talk about though, since anyone who can wield them can kick the tar out of any endgame terror, generally one-rounding the enemy no matter who they are. even amelia can be good with vidofnir in her hands.
For the hatchet, my recent playthrough of FE8 has colored my perspective a bit since at least for me, it did seem to allow Garcia to double more often in the early game, but perhaps he would've with any weapon I tried which only bolsters Garcia as a unit.
I only mentioned the s-rank weaponry to prove that no matter what path Garcia goes down, he's extremely capable of being a late game powerhouse despite his initial poor speed. He doesn't require Garm to do it by any means, but it provides blanket coverage. After all, there aren't many other viable axe users in an efficient playthrough.
Comparing Garcia even implicitly to Amelia is pretty extreme considering the coddling required to do anything with Amelia in an efficient playthrough, which we both know Garcia doesn't require, so Garm + Garcia is far more likely to occur in efficient playthroughs than Ameilia + Vidofnir.
13 hours ago, side bee said:but lets quickly go over why lute being weighed down isnt a huge deal. excalibur is 13 weight, lutes con is 6, and the 5 unnecessary speed essentially serves as a con buff. (6+5)-13=-2. she loses out on 2 speed
Funny considering this earlier argument
13 hours ago, side bee said:4 speed is a huge deal, since that is exactly enough to double in sacred stones.
If 4 speed is a huge deal, losing 2 speed certainly sounds like *a* deal.
13 hours ago, side bee said:also, capped stats arent super relevant, since a 30 attack stat will never be even approaching necessary, but again assuming instant 10/1 promo, garcia actually on average ends up stopping just shy of 25 attack at 10/20. not that any of that matters, since capped stats arent going to come in until the end game, when s rank weapons are everywhere and terrors get one rounded by everyone anyway.
I agree that capped stats aren't super relevant, but that are *somewhat* relevant if you're fielding Lute or Garcia in the late game, you're still getting them level ups and caps matter if you're getting levels still because we have to ask "Who is benefiting more from these mid to late game level ups?"
13 hours ago, side bee said:i mean, kinda? slightly worse defenses for a unit whose role is dps isnt a major problem,
It's a problem this community often doesn't talk about when it comes to magic units. They have actual eternal 1-2 range, but how they perform in 1 range often shows that they are only ever going to be used in 2 range (especially early to mid game, a problem you'll note Garcia doesn't have early to mid game). For instance, let's say we have a map full of enemies; we can either put Lute in the middle of them all, or we can put Garcia. Who would have the advantage when surrounded? Who would have the advantage if the enemy charges our army? Who would have the advantage if we charge them? Garcia is the answer in every case because he can take far more 1-2 range hits from the enemy and still has access to 1-2 range weaponry just like Lute.
I'd like to take this last post opportunity to once again thank you side bee for the invitation and I hope to debate with you again! You presented some well thought out arguments. I hope my tone never crossed into hostile in this debate as that would never be my intention (hard to understand tone through text). The debate not withstanding, I started this not liking Garcia or Lute that much as units, but now I want to do a run of FE8 using them as part of my core team. I do wish you'd of touched on Lute's story aspects (which perhaps you'll be doing in your last post) as stats and what not are fine and obviously what win debates, but support convos and such are where I actually find a love for the Fire Emblem characters.
In that spirit I'll be making my last argument. Supports. What they both get and who gets greater benefits. Let's jump into the best for both immediately.
For Garcia the big draw for supports is easily Seth. He's the best unit inarguably in the game and you'll want to field him in every chapter unless he's banned in a draft or ranked run. Garcia is fire while Seth is anima so at just their B rank will give them bonuses to everything: attack, defense, accuracy, avoid, critical evade, and critical. While C rank will give every bonus except defense. Effectively negating Garcia's early poor luck and the unweildiness inherent to axes to balance them out, not to mention further accelerating him into a combat powerhouse due to the additional crit and attack.
How does Lute fare? Which is best is a bit more complicated, but we assume it's by unit viability she'd go with Vanessa, Kyle or Artur. I'd be inclined to say Vanessa. Assuming that what does Lute get? Well unfortunately Lute and Vanessa are both anima so throughout their supports they'll be locked to only getting bonuses for Attack, Defense, Avoid and Critical Evade missing out on Critical and Accuracy. Unfortunately the only real benefit for Lute here is defense (which will be a fairly small bonus even at A rank) and Avoid which isn't inconsiderable, but you can only avoid for so long without rng manipulation.
-
2 hours ago, side bee said:
being locked to physical weapons on its own is generally worse than magical weapons, due to enemies consistently having low res, just like allies. on top of this, garcia does get hand axes right out, and 7 might is respectable in the early game, but 7 might falls off pretty quick. that being his only 1-2 range option hurts garcia
Being locked to physical weapons is the nature of debate between a non-physical and a physical unit, but it's not as noteworthy as many would believe, after all we wouldn't say Lute is better than Seth because Seth is locked to physical weapons. Hand axes theoretically aren't Garcia's *only* 1-2 range option, after all if you're implying Ewan should be benched in an efficient run (which I agree with of course) than the same would be said of Ross (making my Hero Crest contention argument even stronger) giving Garcia exclusive access for awhile to the Hatchet which is light enough to give Garcia the ability to double in nearly all run ins in the early game aside from the occasional merc or myr.
2 hours ago, side bee said:so we should narrow it down to the stats that really count; speed(second best stat in the game) and attack(super necessary for these two considering their roles as damage dealers)
You're right we should narrow the stats down to the ones that really count, and in nearly every other FE I would agree with you, but in Sacred Stones (maybe this is just my perspective as I haven't looked at average speed stats for enemies across the game or anything) the enemy seems incredibly slow most of the time. As mentioned above though even when this isn't the case Garcia is able to early game double thanks to the Hatchet and later on his speed stat will average into a place where he'll consistently double anyway in the mid and late game. Meaning the truly important difference between these two is their attack which you've already conceded Lute stays consistently behind on.
2 hours ago, side bee said:its nice to see all the numbers, but hardly relevant.
I have to disagree here, especially when it comes to the bases themselves, as I still believe RNG mitigation is the name of the FE game, so Garcia is less prone to being numbers screwed.
2 hours ago, side bee said:all of this would be true, if garcia had a horse. but alack! alay! he remains footlocked all game. rescuedropping is absolutely vital to an efficient playthrough, but it does little to nothing if theres more rescuing going on than dropping. the thing about garcia being footlocked is that he can only ever really rescue, since he lacks canto and cant move after rescuing. the only units with less movement than garcia are armor units, who rarely see the light of day in efficient play anyways. his high con/aid is actually to his detriment, since its harder for him to be rescuedropped, which is where infantry comes in in the grand scheme of rescuedropping strats. lute, on the other hand, with her tiny con can be picked up by even the likes of eirika, which makes it leagues easier for her to be rescuedropped. rescuedropping is used to add movement to otherwise sluggish characters, but garcia simply cant provide extra move for any unit worth your time to use, making his high con a curse.
I think you're deeply undervaluing the take and give commands here as often times in LTC and efficient strategies infantry units with high aid are used to give those precious extra few squares for the staffbots or boss killers in the set up turns especially earlier on. Though I'm willing to concede if Lute goes Mage Knight it's effectively a wash here as early game Garcia will have more utility while late game the utility will go to MK Lute.
Also "the only units with less move with Garcia are armor knights" is somewhat irrelevant since this can be said about half the cast including Lute (since her and Garcia start with the same move) unless she goes Mage Knight (which effectively locks you into saying Mage Knight must be the superior promotion path for her).
2 hours ago, side bee said:well, lets get a head count of playable magic users in the game and then we will address why lute deserves it. outside of the fact that she is superior, after all.
She's somewhere in the contention for an early Guiding Ring for sure, but in LTC or efficient runs anyone that starts with a staff rank and will get weapon exp in staves with their promotion is a serious contender for them as well thanks to warp staves. Though I'm not interested in defending the other magic units in this particular debate, just wanted to point out the large number compared to the Hero Crest users.
2 hours ago, side bee said:what is spectacular is the mount she gets. this bumps her move up to 7, lutes promo is significantly better because it gives her several new options and several new ways to be useful, where garcia has to rely on combat the whole time, which, due to his disappointing speed, is generally subpar.
I'd agree the mount is the best thing Lute gets from her promotion and it's tough for ANY non-mounted unit to contest a mounted one especially when canto exists, but as alluded to by you earlier her damage is inferior to Garcia's throughout the game (at least without considering she doubles), if she goes Mage Knight (magic cap 25) she loses that battle even further if Garcia goes Warrior (strength cap 30). I think my reference to the Hatchet earlier proves his speed can be *at least* par which gets rid of his only real weakness in combat as a physical unit, but we can take it even further when we consider the S rank weaponry. No matter which route or promotion path you take after chapter 15 Garcia with have access to Garm which grants a whooping +5 speed which he'll also have enough con to wield without suffering penalty effectively nullifying any issue he might have doubling in late-mid to late game. Does Lute make as effective use of her possible S rank weaponry? No of course not as Excalibur gives +5 speed that Lute doesn't need, and has a weight of 13 enough to weigh down all but Mage Knight Lute except it also weighs MK Lute too since she only gains 3 con in her MK promotion path. Strictly speaking Garcia's combat will consistently outclass Lute's before we ever consider utility.
And since we brought up move. Either promotion path for Garcia will bring him to 6 move only 1 less than Mage Knight Lute and equal to Sage Lute, canto is a big loss, but in general Garcia is fast enough to keep up with Lute on the front lines if you're clearing efficiently as there will be enemy units to fight.
As to which class Garcia should go, either keeps him ahead of Lute in combat, as Hero will give him +2 spd allowing nearly guaranteed mid-game doubling and Warrior (the choice I think he should go given there are easier ways to combat his bad initial speed mentioned above) will give him the ability to do much more damage in a single strike. Neither weapon gain is worth much note aside from bows being able to take him out of the weapon triangle and swords giving him some control over it.
What about Lute? Well it seems that Sage isn't worth mentioning as its move would only be on par with Garcia and the light magic is as useful as Garcia gaining swords is. So Mage Knight seems the logical choice giving the 1 point of movement over Garcia and the ability to aid finally (after who knows how many chapters of being unable to help in that department). Although that 1 move comes at a somewhat steep combat cost for Lute losing 1 of each of the "defensive" stats.
There's also another consideration upon joining that I avoided touching on until now. Garcia joins at level 4 while Lute joins at level 1 which means of the "experience pie" Lute will need a bigger portion than Garcia to get to level 10 in order to promote, effectively depriving other units in your army of that same juicy experience they need.
-
Thanks for the invite side bee looking forward to a vigorous debate! 😃
Story (main and support insights): Garcia made a grave mistake in his life. Focusing on his career. He was a top commander of Renais, but when his wife Riza died, he adopted a singular focus in life. Protecting and being with his only family left Ross. To that goals end he's convinced by his son to support Eirika's army (and later on possibly Ephraim's depending on route). It's shown in supports between Garcia and Seth that Garcia doesn't regret his life in service to Renais despite his actions showing him to turn from that path after his wife passed showing Garcia as a man of quite confidence that's now fulfilled by his purpose. Another support (Dozla and Garcia) implies that Garcia has some (at least minor) magical ability (though perhaps this support is implying anyone could?) and that he's willing to try any discipline at least once. Last but not least, his support with his son Ross shows him to be a devoted and cautious father, more than many can say in FE.
Combat: Garcia is locked to axes for many a year, however if there is a physical weapon type to be locked to axes are probably the best one thanks to the inexpensive nature of hand axes giving Garcia nearly perpetual 1-2 range. Garcia unfortunately has poor speed and luck, but makes up for this with nearly every other stat save Res (but very few physical combat units have amazing Res). He's able to hit fairly hard compared to everyone but Seth at base, but is unlikely to double, this can be remedied somewhat by giving a speedwings or a promotion to hero (or both) however in the long run of FE8 he'll just double naturally after little time in either promotion with no stat booster basically.
Bases (keeping in mind Garcia starts at level 4 and Lute starts at level 1):
Garcia compared to Lute
HP: +11
Str: +2
Skl: +1
Spd: +0
Lck: -5
Def: +2
Res: -5
(Better in 4 categories, worse in 2 and tied in 1)
Bases (if we let Lute average up to level 4 and Garcia still hasn't leveled)
Garcia compared to level 4 Lute
HP: +9.65
Str: +.05
Skl: +.1
Spd: -1.35
Lck: -6.35
Def: +1.55
Res: -5.2
(Better in 4 categories still, worse in 3)
It's clear that Garcia wins in the "bases" department.
Growth Rates:
Garcia compared to Lute
HP: +35%
Str: +0%
Skl: +10%
Spd: -25%
Lck: +0
Def: +10%
Res: -25%
(Three higher growths, two equal growths and two lesser growths) - Point Garcia for Growths.
Now lets look at both Lute and Garcia at the earliest they could promote level 10:
Garcia compared to Lute
HP: +11.75
Str: +.05
Skl: +.7
Spd: -2.85
Lck: -6.65
Def: +2.15
Res: -6.7
(4 better stats, 3 worse stats) - Point Garcia if we're playing efficiently and don't have the luxury of waiting 10 more levels to promote. However, even if we were this trend would hold true given Garcia's superior or equal growths in the same 4 stats.
Lastly let's talk about utility and affordability:
What went unmentioned in base stats were the con and aid stats which Garcia overwhelming has more of so he could rescue drop more units than Lute could; though would be able to be rescue dropped by less (although that's far less important than being able to rescue drop to begin with in any efficient play through). His higher defense and and more importantly HP imply that he could more reliably used as a wall (with or without a weapon) as RNG mitigation is the name of the game in FE, if I make the assumption *every* attack will hit then Garcia is a superior wall than Lute could ever hope to be. Then there's the question of promotion items, who else is contesting Garcia's Hero Crest and Lute' s Guiding Ring? For the Hero Crests there are only myrmidons, fighters and mercenaries (which we'll delve into more specifically in a moment. For the Guiding Ring there are mages, monks, priests, clerics, troubadours and shamans already 3 more classes than the Hero Crest before we determine how many of each class there are and how many of the proposed promotion items there are throughout the campaign. For fighters only two possibilities Garcia and his son Ross (assuming you don't take Ross down the pirate route as the only user of the ocean seal), for myrmidons two possibilities again Joshua and Marisa, and mercs only Gerik (who comes with a hero crest in his inventory so he's almost not a contender) totally Hero Crest users to 5, and the number of Hero crests in the normal game? 3 in each route assuming no secret shop. For the sake of brevity the number of Guiding Ring users is 7, but the number of Guiding RIngs? 5 on each route (assuming 1 conditional is met and no secret shop).It's clear that Lute using the Guiding Ring restricts more units than Garcia using a Hero Crest and despite the Guiding Rings relative scarcity it costs the same as a Hero Crest so is equally detrimental to your personal funds.I'll later be addressing the differences in promotions, but I rest for now.
-
19 hours ago, side bee said:
i think you should go with garcia, since they are both relatively comparable.
the standards set by mekkah work for me. you want first statement?
Garcia works for me. Sure, I'll go ahead and set up the thread
-
4 hours ago, side bee said:
i didnt have anything specifically in mind, but id be cool to defend lute, if u wanted to go for a different mid-tier unit
I'm not sure I'd call Lute mid-tier, but I'm happy to take the opposing side. If you want to stick to magic to keep my first debate a bit simpler I'd be happy to defend Knoll, Artur, Saleh or even *shudders* Ewan. If you're looking for any challenge in general, I'll go with Garcia or Joshua. I'll let you pick which character I'm to defend. Any rule preferences or just the standards laid out by Mekkah?
-
On 6/23/2019 at 10:14 PM, side bee said:
anyone wanna do fe 15? im also down for fe 8
Hey side bee, I've never played fe 15, but I'd be down for fe 8. Any particular match up in mind?
-
Anyone up for FE9? Thinking maybe Nephenee v. Devdan, Lethe v. Ranulf, Gatrie v. Brom, or even Mia v. Ilyana.
-
Howz it Serenes Forest Forum goers? I just joined after watching a video Mekkah made about Ike v. Kieran and some old forums where units viability was debated. I'm hoping to find opportunities for such debates here or revive them if necessary to hopefully increase my own knowledge of my favorite units and be able to articulate why exactly they are my favorites. My favorite game in the series is Path of Radiance, the introduction of a young CannedCaineghis to all the Laguz tribes (and King Caineghis's theme song) and the continent of Tellius was a magical time in my childhood, followed by Radiant Dawn despite its plot getting.... odd.
Hope to speak with you all in the other threads!
FE Debates Thread (Temporary HQ)
in General Fire Emblem
Posted
Given that 19xx is the only Lyn mode requirement chapter, and that its requirement is so ridiculous compared to the others. I'd say Gaiden chapters are a pretty odd defense for Lyn mode to stay viable in a debate on FE7.
Let's make it happen, I'll take the meme lord himself Devdan and you can have first post.
Yeah, it's pretty tough to argue against 1-2 range in general and there is only so much "this unit is better statistically" you can do in three posts, so sometimes the debate necessitates going into minor points. I've always liked Dorcas myself, but I also still think of all the playthroughs I've had warriors end up disappointing me in performance every time I run one or more.