Zelda2120
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Posts posted by Zelda2120
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4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:
I'm not sure what you mean by a "true" route; it's a vague phrasing. If you mean that you're of the belief that this game has a single, canon story, and Church route comes closer to it, then I won't argue with you on that one (I don't agree but only in the sense that I think worrying about which route is "canon" misses the point of this game).
If you mean that it's the one the developers intended or preferred you to play for Edelgard, then I strongly disagree. Crimson Flower provides you with seven unique maps, plus two unique paralogues, while Silver Snow provides you with one map. Crimson Flower is the only way to see the A supports (and several B's) of both Edelgard and Hubert, two pivotal characters in the game, while Silver Snow has no unique characters and only a single S support with Rhea which is unique to it (I think?).
And finally, consider that this is a game that asks an open-ended question as to whether revolution is justified. If all three routes had forced you to give the same answer, the game would be far poorer for it. I see the reaction to the Crimson Flower route in my social circles, and look at articles like this one being written about it. (I don't link this to start an argument as to whether Edelgard is justified or not. That's not the point. The point is that the game asks the question, and that giving consideration to that question, even if one feels strongly on their answer, is something that players everywhere are doing.) Its existence is extremely important to the game. It goes without saying that the Silver Snow route is not having the same impact.
Well, you're free to disagree. And no, if I thought there was a true path, it would be the BL or actually yeah maybe the church route. Simply because- it's the one that feels most like a Fire emblem- You got the young prince having his kingdom taken away by an evil empire and the main goal is to get it back. It's very character driven and people go through growth. It's just very typical Fire emblem. (And they do defeat those who slither in it just like the others.) Or the church route which is like how Corrin is the main lord.
I see CF as an alternative path to let you be the "villlains". And before you say anything- plenty of the villains had good intentions and siding with them doesn't make them heroes. Which is how plenty of people see it. Basically siding with Arvis. Are you saying that pov is non valid?
But, plenty of people see it another way. Though I will point out that just because it provokes thought doesn't mean people come to the intended conclusion. There are articles like this about literally anything. Anything. But agree to disagree I guess.
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1 hour ago, Dylan Corona said:
Well dang, haha. The Church Route is my favorite. Didn't know so many people didn't like it. Yeah, it's very close to GD. But it's different in ways too. A lot more emotional, in my opinion. But also, it feels like a more true route for BE, at least to me. Though I know a ton of people will disagree with me. But then again I did GD first and this route last, so maybe that helped. Plus I adore all the Church characters.
It's almost certainly meant to be the true BE path. I have a very hard time believing otherwise.
Thinking about it tho, it never occurred to me but yeah I do think it's important for there to be an option to picking BE and then being the one to take her down. Sort of a- as her teacher it's my responsibility thing. That made it pretty cool. Tho only Seteth and Flayn really do anything there. Couldn't recruiting the church on another route have the same effect? I know Catherine has a few more scenes on the BL route, or well sentences anyway.
Is there any particular reason you like it better then GD? I'm curious considering I found them almost identical but I admit I enjoyed the Church route a little more and I have no idea why. I don't like not having a Lord to defer to so in theory I should have liked it less.
That said- The route ends with Byleth ruling Fodlan as a unified continent....just like GD and the truth about Byleth can be gleaned from past conversations. When she revealed the truth on GD- I was like "Whoah! What?!" and on the church route, it was like uh I know. You basically said this earlier, just with less detail.
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This is just my personal opinion of course, but I never really got the feeling that she cared about Byleth as a person; while I understand her distrust of them considering she felt they'd back stab her any minute, it just never felt like a genuine affection. More like, they were worthy to usher in a new age with her. And of course she gets attached to them, they save her, comfort her, listen to her, and so on. But that's latching onto the first source of comfort. It might not have anything to do with them. She just never came across as caring personally. If they didn't have all that talent and skill, I doubt she'd give em a second glance. I mean that's just how I felt so I dunno. The painting is really the only thing I'd say points to anything. I just thought it was kinda creepy. But that's just me as I don't like that kind of thing; it's not a bad thing or anything.
Although, my bro did CF; and he said it was that she saw only them as an equal to her, he didn't see it as romantic at all. Same with other routes when I told him what she said on them. He was pretty adamant about it honestly. And he doesn't hate romance or ships so yeah. And when I asked why the heck he picked Sothis; he said that it felt like everyone was living out their lives and didn't need Byleth anymore. So it was weird to marry him to anyone. He was just kinda there. And honestly, I felt the same on the church route. It seemed like he was just there to cut down enemies, especially compared to the GD and BL routes.
But all that might be my bias talking. I'm just sick of people romanticizing friendships. (even if it can or does turn into romance) It's the same with Dimitri. While I admit, his relationship with F!leth progresses into romance very naturally, if I don't pursue it, it comes across as just a beautiful friendship. Like Chrobin. Actually no, I thought that friendship felt really one sided and the romance was...uh something. Claude's on the other hand, I had a really hard time seeing as romantic. Like ever. The proposal or lack there of and ending(no mention of any relationship whatsoever) just really cemented it for me. He even refers to them as basically, well, brother in Japanese rather then calling them teach after the time-skip. The eng ver even added the I love you bit, but that might be a cultural thing. Tho he isn't Japanese and other people say it so idk.
It felt like F! - BL/ M- the others, specifically church or GD but again, that's just me. It just felt more natural that way.
Ah that got off track, but yeah I just don't see it as romantic. It could progress into that I guess but it's certainly nothing like say Eliwood/Ninian, Jaffar/Nino or other such pairs. More like Hector/Lyn but not quite that either. I guess it's just about perspective, but personally-no.
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On 8/28/2019 at 7:57 AM, Thane said:Spoiler
Nah man, according to Cyril- they're just showing off how tough they are and then go home and party. Tho Claude himself says if not for Hilda's brother, they actually would invade so yeah.
Anyone have Ingrid vs Sylvain or Felix on crimson flower? Like where Ingrid is on the the empire side? I'd really appreciate it as I don't really wanna do the whole path just for 2 conversations.
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What really stands out to me is how angry everyone is if you side with the empire. Like, of course but it never really comes up if you're against them. I can't recall a single BE member mentioning the empire or fighting for El, nor do they express outrage at the professors actions. Like there's Caspar but that's more of a "fight your friends thing" then anything to do with the empire or El. Whereas everyone is outraged and disgusted with them if they join the BE path. It really hammers in that it's the villain path.
And before anyone says anything, of course it's not the case from your armies pov on that route. El thinks she's right after all.
Well in fairness, she's trying to eliminate an entire religion, uses highly immoral means, and seeks to make the world a better place, her version of it, fully admitting she'll do ANYTH|NG to achieve that. So it's not as if the comparisons are completely unfair. Even if you don't like it. 'Sides Napoleon has more then his share of dissenters too.
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Agh, this makes my head spin. Like you can like her, join her, love her, but I don't get how people think she's a hero.
Though considering, I just had a convo with a friend where they claimed if Hitler brought peace through his actions somehow, what he did would have been justified. And I just.....I see how people side with El.
Actually, it specifically states Dimitris subjects have a saying in the ruling. It makes no such mention with Edelgard. In fact it makes note of her supreme power multiple times. So by definition of the term, how is she not a dictator?
Also are we forgetting that El is waging war based on an entirely falsified account of history? Everything she thinks is the truth are just lies from those who slither.
As for oh she can't trust anyone so they have to die, um it specifically says Claude can't trust. And yet, he seems pretty peaceful.
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2 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:
@Zelda2120 Yeah I believe that's meant to be the case for those that didn't inherit crests as not being compatible with when using a relic. Probably something like the power that flows through when using a relic is what triggers it and if you don't have a crest your body can't handle the stress of the relic in like a wave length sorta way.
Also I do happen to like the BL ending for Dimitri and Edelgard because it has multiple layers of depth to it as Dimitri reaches out his hand to a fallen state Edelgard as Byleth did for him when he was in a fallen state. However the tragedy in it is that in regards to the dagger when Edelgard remembers Dimitri's words to her a children about using this dagger to carve a future for herself no matter what and to not give in has double meaning as the dagger represents hope and resolve for Edelgard in continuing to live on no matter the struggles she endures but to not accept loss and waver from the future she's seeking out. Young Dimitri saved her, but he tragically also doomed her too with those very words and so when she doesn't accept Dimitri's offer of peace it's also because she desires suicide by cop as she's far too gone in blood in trying to realize her dream and to accept Dimitri's hand would be to spit on the graves she has piled up on her path for a better world.
The conversation between between Dimitri and Edelgard is way better than the one that Alm and Celica had in their differences. 18:07
Oh, I don't disagree. I think it's a very fitting and indeed, inevitable ending for that route and cruel fate those two share. It really is impossible for them to coexist, they've changed too much-as Dimitri says.
I just meant I dislike her actions as a person.
As for Alm and Celica, I agree, but that's because their fate is the opposite of these two. I mean, you couldn't have a conversation like Dimi/El and reconcile it with echoes ending. Or vice versa. As you know- Strength vs compassion when you need both was the point of gaiden. Though honestly, I didn't get why they were fighting. Like, I sort of do but it seemed more just so they were split up. Whereas here, one couldn't accept a future built on corpses and one couldn't accept the present. You can't really have both after all.
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5 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:
Yup Edelgard sure shows irony.
- Her strong attachment to Byleth began when they saved her at the beginning of the story from a bandit. A bandit whom, unbeknownst to them, was hired by Edelgard herself as part of her plan to assassinate both Dimitri and Claude.
- On the Golden Deer route, she declares that Claude has no right to change Fódlan due to having insufficient knowledge of Fódlan's history of suffering, yet she herself has a very ignorant and biased view of their history, which she obtained from knowledge passed down from emperor to emperor from her ancestor which conveniently left out how Nemesis was a bandit who committed genocide on the Children of the Goddess, consumed those they slaughtered for power, and pilfered the grave of the Goddess.
- In her own route, she bemoans how her enemies refuse to surrender, fight to the last, and then surrender regardless anyways, not understanding why they wouldn't go for the more peaceful option if the result of surrender was the same. In the other two routes, she dies after stubbornly refusing to surrender when the chance is offered to her.
Right? The last one is especially bad on the BL route where
Spoilershe spits on Dimitris offer of peace and has the nerve to try and kill him with his gift to her.
TBH I'm so glad Byleth was far less hesitant to fight El on that route. It's my own personal canon one after all. Like she supports Dimi's wish for peace but has a firm resolve to do as they must. Whereas the others, she's like I don't want to fight her- constantly. And I'm like, come on girl, I get you used to be her teacher but no. Actually the GD route was really hard, just cause I wasn't on the BL side and Byleth wasn't there to help them. Too painful.
Also claiming Rhea's a monster for not evacuating the capital citizens but she does the same thing on GD?
Or talking of innocents caught up in suffering because of the church and then starting a war, even thinking she has the right to decide which lives weigh more.
Also question, I've seen enough of her route to last a lifetime, but what do you think of the claim that she is better on her own route? Or that Byleth reins her in and prevents her from becoming a conqueror? Is there something I'm missing about her actions there? Cause I just can't see it. She confides in him, but it seems she doesn't actually do different then the other routes? Like her convo with Dimitri? She actually tries to justify herself like THAT?
Like Els interesting. A good villain, but as a person, I can't stand her.
On that note though, do you think that's why crestless people turn into monsters when wielding a relic? Like if they have the blood of the dragon, it would recognize them as its owner right? Whereas otherwise, it punishes them for trying to wield such power? I'm just thinking FE4 where the weapons were given as a result of a covenant with the dragons and nothing happened if someone else tried to used them. They just wouldn't be able to. Or did it mention something else and I just didn't notice?
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On the history thing. I don't think it doesn't reveal the whole truth. Like, I mean, I don't think there'd be a 5th path that revealed the whole thing. Maybe extra snippets but not a whole other version. I'm pretty sure that's what the GD path is. Otherwise there'd be no point to it. I'm curious as to why you guys think the GD isn't just the whole truth?
SpoilerIt would make no sense for Els version of history to be true. For one, there's almost no details and it's very vague. Also it's told by those who hate Rhea and want the empire to wage war against her. It's also never mentioned elsewhere on any route and directly contradicts what we know. It also makes perfect sense for Edelgard to believe she's the only one who knows the truth and is "liberating" the people. She lacks self awareness and is unable to break out of her own delusions and see the bigger picture after all.
Whereas the GD info matches perfectly with what we know from the mentions of history and the flashback at the beginning along with Sothis's talk of the red canyon in her gaiden. Even Eddies uncle mentions Nemisis being a thief, hinting he knows the truth. I mean does Rhea saying "You took everything I loved" make any sense in the BE ver? No, but it fits perfectly with the GD. And Rhea was there so.
And as others say, Sothis is clearly nothing like they describe. Secondly. Claude's has a lot of detail and as his is the route in pursuit of the whole truth, it wouldn't make sense if they didn't reveal it. That's why I think the ending of the BE is what it is. Not to mention the humans starting wars and then turning on the heavens fits TWSITD's actions whereas the other is classic manipulation tactics to get someone to do your work for you.
Byleth losing Sothis powers, not only because El is trying to rid the world of her power, but Byleth going against what Sothis would wish as she clearly was against the war. And I think it's fitting that because of that, his connection to her was severed forever.
Also where does it say ever, that the church is responsible for the crest thing? I thought it was TWSITD and the more twisted nobles. They mention they're powerful relics and not to misuse them, but they don't say to define people by them. Felix says he was raised to be strong, a crest meant nothing if you couldn't swing a sword. He also mentioned- everyone in his area was raised like that. Sylvain says the opposite so it seems to be up to the nobles themselves. I never saw the church encourage that and Seteth is against that view. Anyway, how does inventing communism fix it? A classless system with a supreme ruler. Perfect. Really.
And if I hear one more word about killing non believers, I'm gonna lose it. She employs several in her knights after all. They punish those who turn against them. Extreme yes, but are they supposed to just roll over and die? Also ruling the world? She was gonna turn the position over to Byleth. Rhea has problems, but she ain't evil. she only loses it after a massive betrayal, similar to Dimitri on one route. She steps down willingly and peacefully otherwise. Unlike a certain someone who makes it clear that the only way to end the war is to kill her.
It seems El is just directing her anger at them unjustly because of those who slither manipulating her just like they did with Lonato and the western church. It's sad she never learns the truth and lives in a world of delusion. Ironic that she thinks that of Dimitri. Actually, I never noticed it but it really is. She says he's obsessed with her in his delusion and yet she's the same with Rhea.
And of course, Dimis breakdown was bad, they all acknowledge it and were helping him through it. Actually Rhea too, church route. Els the one who doesn't. That's why she's worse. She never reforms or recovers.
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That's the thing though. I don't feel she has any right to start a war to do that. And honestly, triggering a war seems pretty evil to me. Good has come from wars. That doesn't make em right. I disagree with calling it childish, she commits atrocities over and over and never owns up to it.
And I personally see it the opposite, it says freedom from crests and status. But, considering Fodlan is one small part of the world, I'd say foreign relations are much more important then status and ones own power. She also has a war on her hands and who knows how long that lasted or how many died. Not that she'd care.
Here's how I feel about the perspective shift. Cause people always say it makes her seem more good or heroic. But a shift is just that, it doesn't change the story, it only changes the pov.
For example I feel it's completely justified to completely hate her on the BL route.This is what she did to the Kingdom. That doesn't change on any route. You hate her because the Blue lions do. She took everything from them and plunged their home into chaos. The story makes it pretty clear that the kingdom is the worst off in terms of the war. As Ashe says on her route at the capital battle something like "You took our people, our king, our kingdom! What else is there for you to take?!" She completely ruined them. Of course they want her dead.
She also sides with people who manipulate the western church into fighting the central so quite frankly she's allied with the people who actually do all those awful crest experiments yet blames Rhea for them when there's no indication it's her or the church's fault.
Whereas on the GD and ironically the church route, she's more sympathetic. Because they see her that way. Claude understands her and would like to reason with her as he frankly cares more about Almyra then Fodlan. But he knows she won't surrender and so they do as they must. Same with the church route. They don't hate her nearly as much so it's only natural you don't.
And then on her route, all her followers praise her, and she confides in Byleth and oh isn't that nice. She's so sympathetic and is truly trying to do the right thing. None of that changes what she does to the others. You just don't fully see it. You get small glimpses but it's easy to ignore when everyone's praising their beloved emperor. And quite frankly I don't see how what she does on that route is better then the others. She doesn't spare people who disagree. She marches right in and destroys the kingdom, can kill Claude which I'm sure Almyra wouldn't be mad about at all, and everyone feeds her ego, reinforcing her belief as this savior of the people.
She really is very much like Walhart, except you had to stop him. Why? Oh yeah because while everyone fully acknowledged his plan would work, it didn't justify what? Oh right, starting a war to unite the continent and defeat the evil, no matter who had to die. Even he admitted that.
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I'm not sure if we have to use tags, so just in case.
SpoilerHonestly, I don't see how she could be anything but a villain. Now I only did the BL route cause I refuse to go against them in any way, and frankly I wouldn't do Els route if you put a gun to my head, but I've seen the other routes and the BE route makes me less sympathetic, not more. She talks about a false goddess and yet seems to want to be exactly that. She says the power will be in the hands of the people, and yet that's clearly not the case as the ending makes note of her supreme power multiple times. I'll also point out it's the one ending that doesn't mention Byleth helping or guiding her. Which is fair, as he just enables her on her route.
She calls Rhea a villain for not evacuating the citizens and yet does the exact same thing, minus the fire on the GD and maybe the BL routes. But again, Rhea has gone insane and is corrupting everyone else, she does need to be stopped. Rheas bad, the church isn't. If Seteh and Falyn were in charge, it would all be fine. However as she steps down on the other routes, I cannot say she is as villainous as Edelgard. Not to mention, El is like oh we can't let innocents be hurt. Who does she think started this damn war in the first place? It just makes her a hypocrite rather then make me empathize with her. Honestly by the end of just watching her route, I was so ready to have Byleth shoot an arrow through her on the BL route. I can't imagine actually choosing her route myself.
And the thing about it being a different Edelgard on the other routes, I'm sorry but that is incorrect. On all routes, there is the main conflict, with the lords doing their things. That doesn't change. What does change is who Byleth decides to guide and who makes it out without giving in to the worst of themselves. So no matter what- She starts the war, leaves the entire Kingdom in shambles under a horrible traitorous ruler, there are looters and thieves everywhere, she tries to destroy both the Kingdom, Alliance, and their allies, will kill anyone who is against her, Acts with TWSITD which makes her an accomplice to their deeds as she makes no attempt to stop them or warn the others. She also may not directly experiment on the people but she has no problem using them. Tries to steal the crest stones and kill anyone who gets in her way. Works with bandits to try and assassinate any opposition early on, allows the death knight to do as he pleases which means she is in fact partially responsible for what happens to Flayn and likely the death of Jeralt. All this could have been avoided had Byleth just been a bit slower protecting her at the start. And um, are we forgetting it's the only route you can directly kill all opposing factions?
And yet you want me to see her as a hero? She never once attempts to reach out to anyone and make peace on any route whereas all other routes at least try to reason with her. Especially the BLs. That's the thing. There's no backed into a corner, no exhausting other ideas. No lords who refuse to accept her. It's all her refusing to accept them, refusing to consider another way. You know what they say about good intentions. She doesn't want to coexist, she wants to destroy the current world. She's even bothered if you choose to spare Claude.
She's basically like Danny of GOT, and it baffles me that people think Danny as good. If Micaiah destroyed Ikes faction and brought peace to Tellius, I bet people would call her evil. And yet. In fact, that was Walharts plan, and it would have worked. However as even he admitted, he was wrong and would not have done so had be met Robin first.
Again, she's sympathetic, she's tragic. I don't see her as pure evil, but I don't like her as a person at all and she's definitely a villain.
But I do have a question. Exactly what did Byleth stop her from doing on her own route? How did he help her in anyway? She wipes out all opposing forces and he just lets her. The only difference is that she wins.
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Spoiler
I don't think I did any quest. Sothis is gone now though, and there's no new quests around.
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5 minutes ago, ShadowAUS said:
You get the chance to do an S support only right before the final battle. As far as I remember the ring is obtained about halfway through the game after a certain character dies and you're given a (red) quest to go to their room where you have to talk to Sothis.
Spoilers chp 14 now. Did I miss it?
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Does anyone know how to trigger getting the ring for s supports? I can't seem to get it. BL route.
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Um, new here. Does anyone know the answer to this?
SpoilerDo you need the ring to s support? Can you get it after Jeralts death?
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Um, does anyone know the answer to this?
SpoilerDo you need the ring for an s support? Is there any way to get if after Jeralts death?
What Is *SPOILERS* Rationale For Hating The Church?
in Fire Emblem: Three Houses
Posted
Indeed, idk if telling the truth would have been a good thing. Look at what people do with relics. If they knew there were dragons or missiles lying around, you'd have a nemesis situation all over again. Hubert even says he wants their tech.
Also would it really matter if they told the truth? The "history" El knows is fake anyway. Why would that change if the church told them what really happened. There were already two different accounts.
Marianne always talks about her crest ruining her life. That is because of the cursed bloodline of the 11th elite who was turned into a monster. People fear her and blame her for all sorts of misfortune; she does as well. If people knew where crests really came from - would it not stand to reason that all of their bloodlines would get this treatment and they would be feared rather then sought after? Except for families who just wanted power. They would of course abuse it anyway so it wouldn't make a difference to them.