Don Draper
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Posts posted by Don Draper
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No, since she retains a massive level lead. The only Paladin that ever beats Titania until end-game is Oscar, and that's only because he has Ike A, Kieran B for massive durability. Titania still won't die, and maintains a pretty big offensive lead with Silver Axes and a Rhys support. So actually, Titania might still be beating him. ^_^[/url]
Did I get through to you at all? Ike won't be in range of Oscar all the time. Kieran A, Ike B is far superior because Oscar isn't getting tied down by Ike all the time.
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...And you moved Soren and Nephenee down for no reason at all. Those two>Ilyana, Brom, or Zihark.
And you act as if every character is using the Knight Ward as well :(
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Zihark doesn't even beat Stefan when he promotes, because Stefan will have a massive level lead which Zihark never catches up to.
Those three need to drop a tier for the reasons that Reikken and I mentioned.
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Devdan should stay where he is, or drop due to Phail Speed and Phail Defense. Tormod is good where he is.
Ilyana should go down further to upper mid (Fail speed and magic)
Brom has low movement in a game where all the good characters are mounted. He should move down
Zihark needs to move below Stefan. Zihark starts out really bad, while Stefan is amazing once you get him. Stefan will also have a gigantic level lead, and will cap Strength/Skill/Speed much faster.
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Will you move Soren above Ilyana too? I'll provide more examples of Ilyana's failing at doubling if you want...
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...Which is only 3 higher per attack, while Oscar's durability is still much higher. Also, all enemies but Armour Knights are being one-rounded by both, so Kieran's offensive lead really isn't a massive advantage. :/ Also, both characters two-round with Short Spear/Axe.
Ike is usually running to the Gate or Throne, and thus moving first. Support range is three, while their movement difference is two.
Soren is the biggest hindrance in Chapters 4-8, since he's killing like, nothing, and has Rhys-esque durability without the healing. Ilyana has Mordecai A, Zihark B, giving +4 Defense, +1 Attack, and +10% Avoid. Also, Soren's leads on Ilyana in Magic and Speed are around 2-3 for the entire game, which Ilyana makes up for by using Elthunder without AS loss after promotion. Soren can't use higher tomes without losing Avoid, his only way of defending himself.
By around Chapter 15, Ike and Oscar can get their A support. Both characters are getting better bonuses for a longer period of time. IkexSoren A activates around Chapter 26, which is hugely late. At best, Soren will get Ike B.
Finally, it's doubtful that mounted characters will be using their full Movement each turn.
Enemy Stats time!
Let's use average stats at 20/1, Chapter 18. I'll even give you the inferior supports
Oscar: 38 HP, 31 Atk, 124 Accuracy, 89 Avoid, 17 AS 16 Def, 8 Res
Kieran: 38 HP, 34 Atk, 112 Accuracy, 66 Avoid, 17 AS 15 Def 6 Res
Weakest Wyvern Riders: 32 HP, 24 Atk, 93 Acc, 15 Def
Strongest Wyvern Riders: 33 HP, 24 Atk, 97 Acc, 16 Def
Oscar can't ORKO every Wyvern Rider, while Kieran can
Knights: 32 HP, 20 Atk, 91 Acc, 17 Def
Oscar can't ORKO, while Kieran can
General: 33 HP, 22-24 Atk, 93 Acc, 18 Def
Oscar can't ORKO, while Kieran can (Weapon Triangle)
Out of 21 non-boss enemies, Oscar can't ORKO 6 of them. That's almost a third of the enemies he can't ORKO. Not to mention that both character's durability is overkilled (The Highest Hit Rate any enemy has is an Archer, with 107 Hit. Kieran has 41 Listed Hit, and he takes 4 Damage. LOL). Almost every enemy has Lances, so he'll be dodging everything anyways (Even Wyvern Riders have 21 Hit and deal 9 Damage) So they both have overkill durability, but Kieran is killing everything in one round. He does this even more so before promotion. Kieran>Oscar. Plus, Paladins should be getting Sol (Who else besides Ike needs an Occult anywa
And seriously, Oscar will not always be in range of Ike. If we're going for max B-Exp, and max efficiency, Oscar won't be in range of Ike AT LEAST half the time. He WILL be using as much movement as possible, as well as taking advantage of Canto. Plus, Soren (The superior Sage, more on this later) needs the durability from Ike.
Now Soren. He needs a bit of babying when you get him, but so do Makalov and Astrid, should we knock them down? Plus Ilyana needs perhaps more babying due to never doubling. Ilyana has similar defense and worse offense then Soren because of mediocre speed throughout. Soren can reliably double, while Ilyana cannot. Because of that, Ilyana being able to use heavier tomes is irrelevant, Soren can just switch to heavier tombs if he goes against an enemy with low AS. The only thing Ilyana really has over Soren is supports.
Ilyana can use Elthunder with no AS loss at promotion? Big deal. If they promote at Chapter 18, Ilyana @ 15 AS and Elthunder and Soren @ 18 AS and Elwind, Ilyana can't double nearly any Soldier, the Halberdier, Archers, Fighters, Sages, or Cavaliers. Soren doubles all of them, ORKOing nearly everything except Sages.
I really don't understand why you just shrug off 2-3 point advantages, when they make the difference between doubling, or killing.
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I'm playing another HM. -_- A level 20/1 Oscar has 31 Atk and 17 AS with Silver Lance. Kieran actually has less reliable offense at this point, considering there is only one Silver Axe at promotion (Which could also be used by Boyd and Titania, both with better Attack and AS), while there's two Silver Lances virtually exclusive to Oscar, as his only competition would be an unpromoted Brom.
OscarxKieran A won't happen. At Kieran's joining, Oscar and Ike will have a B support. You're weakening Ike by not giving him Oscar A. Kieran has Marcia A as such. So, Oscar still has a 30% Avoid lead on Kieran.
Ilyana is clearly better than Soren, and Tormod might be as well. Soren is atrocious for quite a while, and never has good durability. Also, SorenxIke is a very slow support, so Ike is being deprived of that Avoid for virtually the entire game.
Boyd and Titania don't need a Silver Axe to one-round. A level 20/1 Kieran has 34 Atk and 17 AS with Silver Axe and B Marcia, which makes a difference. Not to mention he can reliably kill from 2-Range, where Oscar can't.
You're weakening Ike by giving him an A support with a character who won't be in range all the time. -_-
Soren is atrocious for awhile? His stats at Level 6 (Ilyana's Joining Level) are better, and Ilyana has worse durability due to low speed plus no avoid supports. Ilyana also has worse Magic and Speed, which are essential for a Sage. You're probably the only person I know who thinks Ilyana>Soren. Kieran+Oscar happens incredibly fast, and Ike and Oscar still get a B, so he's still getting enough avoid until A support with Soren kicks in. Kieran and Oscar will always be in range of each other too.
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Oscar can use Silver Lances at promotion, which is still enough while building Axes. Even with Silver weapons, both characters are one-rounding, but Oscar won't recieve damage ever.
It's doubtful Soren will be fielded, since IkexSoren makes Ike considerably weaker and Soren isn't that great. Besides, Oscar and Ike can easily stat in support range. OscarxIke is the fastest and overall best support in the game.
ReysonxIke is another support option, but he's better with Tanith A, Tormod B.
You need to replay hard mode. Oscar still has trouble against some enemies after promotion, and definately can't ORKO at 2-Range. And Oscar with A Kieran and B Ike has a mere 15 Avoid over Kieran with A Oscar, B Marcia. Not enough to make him "invincible".
Soren isn't that great? Being the best Sage in the game isn't great? And trading 7.5 Avoid for 1.5 Attack makes Ike "considerably weaker?" LOL
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I will say that Kieran does have better overall offense, but it's still only slightly better than Oscar's. Both can use Silver weapons after promotion and one-round everything. Oscar's durability is literally immortal, getting at minimum +45% Avoid from Ike A, Kieran B. Also, Oscar has early-game use.
Support-wise, Ike wants Oscar A for some durability, and Marcia wants Kieran B for a slight Avoid boost. Reyson gets Tanith A.
Oscar probably won't A Rank Axes for awhile, so Kieran will continue to one-round what Oscar can't.
Ike A, Kieran B is a bad idea. If Soren is fielded, he'll have much worse durability. Plus, Ike's low movement means Oscar has to stick back more often, meaning Kieran will have to stick back more often. It hurts everyone. Honestly, Ike A is not the best choice. And WTF with Reyson? What does that have to with anything?
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But this tier list isn't a "Tier List for characters after some time", its a Tier List for the entire game. Kieran will have superior offense before promotion, while Oscar will have problems killing.
Not to mention if Oscar and Kieran each get an A Support, while Oscar gets B Ike, and Kieran B Marcia, Kieran gets +15 Avoid, while Oscar gets +35. It seems like a big difference, but it still won't make Oscar immortal.
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Kieran>Oscar. Seriously
Oscar is better at living, while Kieran is better at killing stuff. Kieran doesn't die easily (Oscar's support helps), but Oscar has trouble killing, while Kieran kills easily.
Kieran's lead is more important. Plus he has excellent base stats, and axes pre-promotion.
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sandmanccl needs to look up Ad Hominem Attack
That was actually well said, VincentASM. People who don't debate really shouldn't be bringing in their personal experiences to a debate topic. For example, "Rolf is better then Titania at Endgame" is completely false using averages.
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...I'm arguing your side
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Luck/Skill are irrelivant because...
Critical has a 1-2% difference between the two, so its negligible
Hit will always be 90-100% anyways due to High Skill and Luck/Extra Hit from Forge/Support Bonuses (They each get an extra 17% from supports).
1 Critical Evade difference between the two makes no difference
2% Extra Avoid from Luck makes no difference.
Bonuses come from Knight Ward, if she has it equipped.
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Rolf is actually being compared to Titania? LOL. Wow, not even close
Titania, 20/20 A Mist B Boyd (Forged Silver Axe)
HP 48.2
Atk 43.5
Spd 23.5*
Def 22.6 (+2)
Res 19.6 (+2)
Rolf, 20/20 A Mist B Marcia (Forged Silver Bow)
HP 43.8
Atk 42.7
Spd 26.2
Def 21.4
Res 15.5
Rolf has a bit more speed, but not really because Titania is pretty much doubling everything anyway, and can get a few Knight Ward levels to get up to, say, 25 speed pretty easily.
Otherwise, Titania has more attack, more durability (def/res/HP), more mobility (2 move and move-again), can gain weapon triangle advantage over two types of foes, can attack at 1 range or 1-2 range (instead of just pure 2 range).
Titania is clearly superior to Rolf at 20/20. Now consider that Titania hits 20/20 way earlier than Rolf (in fact Rolf might not even hit it at all), so at any point before endgame the gap becomes huge. I don't need to bring up how the comparison looks in Chapter 9, I hope.
Once again, proof that Titania is better then Rofl at Endgame. And before you complain, I didn't include Skill/Luck because they don't matter. Titania has slightly more Luck, but Rofl more Skill, but neither stat makes a difference. Titania>Rofl at Endgame, as well as the entire game.
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Rolf is actually being compared to Titania? LOL. Wow, not even close
Titania, 20/20 A Mist B Boyd (Forged Silver Axe)
HP 48.2
Atk 43.5
Spd 23.5*
Def 22.6 (+2)
Res 19.6 (+2)
Rolf, 20/20 A Mist B Marcia (Forged Silver Bow)
HP 43.8
Atk 42.7
Spd 26.2
Def 21.4
Res 15.5
Rolf has a bit more speed, but not really because Titania is pretty much doubling everything anyway, and can get a few Knight Ward levels to get up to, say, 25 speed pretty easily.
Otherwise, Titania has more attack, more durability (def/res/HP), more mobility (2 move and move-again), can gain weapon triangle advantage over two types of foes, can attack at 1 range or 1-2 range (instead of just pure 2 range).
Titania is clearly superior to Rolf at 20/20. Now consider that Titania hits 20/20 way earlier than Rolf (in fact Rolf might not even hit it at all), so at any point before endgame the gap becomes huge. I don't need to bring up how the comparison looks in Chapter 9, I hope.
FE9 Tier List
in Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance
Posted
Alright, I've had about enough of talking to a brick wall. I proved why Soren>Ilyana, or why Oscar should get A Kieran, B Ike countless times, and you keep spouting your same BS over and over again. If you can't handle criticism on your tier list, you shouldn't be posting it on a forum. Reikken has also proven why Zihark, Ilyana, and Brom should drop. They need to drop a tier, and I still don't understand why you dropped Soren and Nephenee without initially posting why.