Defeatist Elitist
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Posts posted by Defeatist Elitist
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It is pretty obvious to me that this guy will take things out of context to make for a "better read". I'd sooner just stop feeding the troll. It isn't like obsessing over the members of some website is any better than obsessing over a fictional character.
edit: also twitter is the fucking shit, what the fuck is wrong with you people get on it right now
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It's like you guys have never heard of _txt Twitter account before.
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Well you're pretty much the best SF member anyway, so don't sweat it.
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I can't believe the media portrayed this shooting of an unarmed teenager as if it might have been unjust. -
If I said "it's wrong to murder people" in this thread, I would be rightfully scoffed at; but that doesn't mean nobody has ever been murdered. Similarly, I wish I lived in a world where everyone in the world always respects everyone else, but unfortunately, we don't. Any attack that can be construed from my words is directed at those who don't respect others.
I agree. I guess I just don't think it necessarily needed to be said.
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It's a bit more complicated than that. An overall reduction is good. If the greater outcome is that society is primed to think that being insulting is the most effective way to get people to agree with you, then I wouldn't be in favor of it.
Okay, so I guess we agree on that then. I don't think insulting is the most effective way to get people to agree with you either. I do think however that it is part of one effective method that should be employed in certain situations. I also am pretty much positive that that won't be the greater outcome.
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More like, "Being a fuckwit to someone because they said/believe in something you absolutely do not agree with isn't acceptable." This goes for more than homophobia.
Yeah, I don't really see what your argument is. Obviously being a fuckwit is probably bad. You seem to be saying that insulting someone for any reason is being a fuckwit.
If insulting people for being homophobic reduced overall homophobia, would you still have a problem with it? You seem to think it doesn't, I think it does. If you wouldn't have a problem with it, then our argument is about whether it's effective. If you would still have a problem with it than I have no idea what to tell you.
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Or they'd band together into some sort of group that I'd really rather not have around. There's better ways of getting the point across than flat-out insulting them. I see a racial divide on a daily basis; insulting someone every time they do it will result in no one listening to you, no matter how well-intentioned you are. Discussing WHY that person feels like that will usually go over better; people usually like to talk about themselves, and you'll get a better idea of what makes them tick.
Yes, as I've said before, maybe discussing why that person feels that way will help change things. I've found most of the time I take that route I find that either the person is unwilling to give the actual reason they feel that way, or they don't have a real reason. I then find they refuse to change their mind no matter how reasonably I try to argue with them. I am perfectly willing to accept that in some cases your method will work, and in fact, I still try to use it for a lot of shit. However, I also know for certain that the other method works as well sometimes, and in certain situations I think it's the better option.
Either way, your argument isn't "you're just as bad either way", what you're arguing is "homophobes are bad people, people who insult homophobes just aren't going to effectively change their mind", am I right?
edit: Like, you seriously underestimate the effectiveness of assertive dissaproval of something.
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Dude, double posting.
Look backwards to what I replied to originally (bold mine):
No matter how screwed-up someone viewpoint is, calling them whatever you want will do more harm than good if you're humiliating/demeaning them. Getting them off to the side and explaining what your problem is will usually have better results.
If it's a matter of getting someone out of a bad situation, then I'm all for finding the fastest way possible to resolving it without inflicting harm to yourself/the person in trouble. I think this is doable without being an asshole yourself.
I guess I just don't interpret that statement remotely the same way.
Basically, my point is this: if somebody says "I don't think niggers should be allowed to vote", you would not be out of line to tell them they were being a racist prick. The fact that people will do stuff like this means racism is less prevalent. I mean, say what you like, but making something socially unnacceptable tends to decrease its occurence. By the same token, if somebody says "I don't think fags should be allowed to marry", and you call them a homophobic asshole, you're not out of line. If we all did that, there would be far fewer homophobic people, because homophobia would have become completely socially unnacceptable.
Edit; There is a fairly constant effort by people to make everything balanced when it really doesn't need to be. Evolution happened, creationists do not have equal credibility to scientists. Vaccines work, alternative medicine quacks are not just as good as doctors. And fervent same sex marriage supporters are not just as bad as the Westboro Baptist Church. Both sides don't have to be equally bad. The world does not work like that. Sometimes one side is actually just right. Now, obviously, gay marriage is a morality issue, and all morality is subjective, but hey. The truth is not always somewhere in the middle.
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Except literally nobody is saying it's an excuse to yell shit like that in front of a group of strangers. See my point about basic social interaction skills. If somebody is against gay marriage I'm not going to flip my shit at them in public, but I am going to explain to them why they're wrong and why they shouldn't say shit like that.I don't mind if it's done in a respectful manner. Using it as an excuse to be an ass to someone isn't acceptable. There's a huge difference between, "Hey, man, that's not cool," (in private) and, "What the fuck is wrong with you, you homophobic dipshit?!" (yelled in front of a group of strangers). A bad reaction to the former means that you're probably better off not hanging around that person.
On the other hand, if somebody is harrassing somebody for being gay or whatever, I think it's perfectly acceptable to tell them to fuck off. There's a good chance I wouldn't do it because I'm a huge coward who would be afraid of the negative social repurcussions of doing it, but a better person than me would do it.
Yeah, I said "I", but I guess my point is that your base assumption shouldn't be "human beings don't understand human interaction". I didn't see it as a direct attack on me or anything. Also, again, I don't think you meant it as an attack. What I'm trying to do is point out that what you said IS sort of an attack whether you meant it or not.I was just putting my two cents in on the "changing minds" subtopic :/ I am wondering where I said I was talking about you personally, or that one shouldn't be assertive when disagreeing with an opinion... you should seriously chill out. You're seeing ad hominem attacks where there are none.
edit: It's just sort of a pet peeve of mine, like when people say "that's just your opinion". I know it's meant in one way, but the implication is sort of bizarre, and it doesn't contribute anything because it's pretty obvious.
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I doubt a significant number of Christian churches consider same-sex couples to be Christian, either.
So just to nip this in the bud, since people are still talking about it, as far as I know there isn't a single place where gay marriage has been legalized where churches have been forced to marry homosexual couples. I mean, for all I know there could be, but it's not even remotely likely to happen in the US, so it's not really relevent to the legalization of same sex marriage in the US.
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Actually, it won't. You'll end up becoming one of "the enemy", which means they're less likely to listen. Hatred cannot stop hatred.
I'm afraid that you'll perpetuate the cycle of hatred. If the cycle is to end, why can't you be the one to stop it?
I don't think we're suggesting anybody start a campaign of hatred against homophobes. What we're suggesting is that when people do homophobic shit, they get called out for it and people explain that it's unnacceptable, just as people should do for racist shit, or sexist shit. I'm not saying you should deny them services or treat them badly, I'm literally just saying you should make it clear that you don't respect their opinion on the subject. You don't have to say you don't respect them, I think you should respect everyone, but I don't think every opinion should be respected.
This isn't a team fight - just because you're not completely and utterly against one thing doesn't mean you're for it, either. There's a time and a place to talk to someone earnestly about it. You aren't going to get a positive reaction by humiliating/degrading the bigot - you'll simply sink to their level. Someone who hurls insults at a bigot is still someone who hurls insults.I mean, the fact that you consider that hurling insults is one thing, but even if it was, you must understand their is a key difference there. One is harrassing somebody because they're doing something that has no negative affect on anyone else, and the other is reprimanding someone for doing something socially destructive. There is a difference between the two.
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I was using a hyperbolic example.
Forcing the church to conduct wedding ceremonies via government regulation for groups that they have fundamental disagreements with is absurd.
I think it's fundamentally misunderstanding what a church is, but I don't think it's absurd.
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The most important part of getting people to change their views is to respect them. If you tell them they're wrong without letting them have their say, you'll only make them obstinate. Tactfully explaining to them why they are wrong should make most reasonable people rethink their position.
I always let people have their say, it's actually pretty difficult not to. In fact, I usually try to start with tact. I mean, I am a human being. I know how to communicate with other human beings. I don't think any of us here spend all our lives yelling at everybody who disagrees with us on anything. Please don't post telling us how to conduct basic human interaction, I'm pretty sure we've got that covered.
edit: I get where you're coming from, because yes you are partially right, but I just find it odd you immediately assume that I have no grasp of how to effectively communicate with other human beings.
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Agreed. As a matter of fact, I think government should force all churches to marry any and all couples that desire a church ceremony. A goat-demon worshipping pair of sociopaths want to get married at your church? Too bad, you gotta do it!
How are wedding ceremonies a human right?
So are you being sarcastic or what? I mean, I don't actually think churches should be forced to conduct any marriages they don't want to, but the parallel you seem to be trying to construct is pretty absurd.
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I'm against shitting on people, period. Yes, it's unfortunate, but they're very unlikely to listen to you if you're hostile. If you truly want them to change, you start by being nice to them.
But when you do that, you absolutely run the risk of tacitly supporting their bigotry. I mean, I know coming from me this is going to sound old, and nobody is going to take it seriously, but straight up being nice to people won't always help. I have friends and people I am nice to who believe awful things, and not a single one of them has changed their horrible horrible opinions. On the other hand, of the people I've been far more aggressive with, I've seen far more success.
I am at a point in my life where I actually consider terminating friendships I have had for years because those friends refuse to change their sexist, racist, homophobic, etc beliefs, even on a fairly minor level, because in many cases I can't change peoples' minds by being nice.
Now this is not to say it can't be done. It might even be just as good as being aggressive. The point is, making it clear that horrible opinions are not acceptable to you does actually work to discourage horrible opinions.
I guess it depends on what you mean by shitting on though. Regardless though, if you can't see the difference between calling somebody a fag for being gay, and calling someone a homophobic asshole for doing that, I don't know what to tell you.
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also, fuck the police
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For me to believe in evolution, I would need some huge concrete evidence. There just is none.
You're wrong. If you've looked into this, you would know there is more than enough evidence to support evolution. The overwhelming majority of scientists, and pretty much all biologists accept it. You might think there isn't any evidence, but almost everybody who's literal job it is to figure things out and interpret evidence say there is enough evidence. Your ignorance on this topic is not as good as their knowledge. If you want evidence, there is evidence in the fossil record, their is evidence in the morphology of a number of extant species, and there is a ton of genetic evidence, just to name a bit of stuff.
I wasn't kidding when I said nothing in modern biology makes sense without evolution. Denying evolution is tantamount to saying that all of biology since it's acceptance is either a) wrong, or b) right completely by accident. It's also pretty similar to saying all science is wrong.
If you're worried that this fucks with your religion, that should be flexible enough to contain it, and the important part of religion is supposed to be the personal and faith aspects of it right?
Oh, and to eclipse on her second point, fuck Zoroastrianism, that shit is dumbdumbdumb.
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I've had a lot of practice. If you can avoid putting them on the defensive then you can at least get them to relax their gnosticism.
So have I. But the ones it works on, it will still work on by doing that. There are fucking people on this site who were once creationists who aren't because other people here convinced them otherwise, and none of us were nice about it.
If you meant about him: The only thing I said about him was that his attitude led him to bullying people into shutting up. Based on: "the best I can do is make him afraid to vomit his dumb fucking opinions all over the place."Call it bullying if you'd like, but I think it should be socially unacceptable to say shit like that, and I'm doing what I can to foster that kind of atmosphere. If you treat him nicely and as if his opinions have merit, he'll say a bunch of disingenuous shit, and you make what he's saying seem reasonable.
He is literally denying one of the most basic, well accepted and central biological facts. Modern biology makes no sense without evolution. He cannot possibly have actually looked at any of the science and still hold the opinion he has. If he's going to spout off a bunch of shit about something he doesn't understand and hasn't even put in any effort to understand, at best he's being a willfully ignorant anti-intellectual, an at worst he's a straight up liar. Fuck him man, he doesn't deserve your suppport.
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DE, you are only making yourself look bad.
If you cannot discuss the subject without getting riled, you probably shouldn't discuss it.
Your swearing and insults will only help him justify his victim complex.
I'm not even remotely riled duder, it's just that there's no fucking way I'm going to convince him he's wrong, so the best I can do is make him afraid to vomit his dumb fucking opinions all over the place. Also, I don't think there's anybody on this site that has any respect for me that would lose it because I said mean words to some random creationist. Being a dick is like my thing, yo.
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The problem with evolution is that anytime a hole has been pointed out they just change what they believe to cover the holes. The Theory of Evolution has drastically changed throughout the last 100 or so years since Darwin 1st thought it up. There have been many hoaxes over the years that have been defuted and the explanation has always been that they just made a mistake.
Yes. This is what scientists do. When something they believe is shown to be wrong, they adopt a new model. There are a lot of things Darwin didn't even know about that we understand quite well now, many of which give even more support for evolution. Evolution remains the overwhelmingly favored theory among scientists to explain biodiversity, and it's the basis for modern biology. Nothing in Biology makes sense without evolution.
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I agree. My biology book is all like, "creationism is right evolution is wrong" and then puts all this proof in there.
And as much as I believe that God created Heaven and Earth, I don't think religion should mix with public education - that's the Church's job. (And yes, I really do think that way.) That's also the reason why that book irks me. :P
If your university has creationism in its textbook as a real thing, then you don't go to a real university.
I don't trust the half-life methodology.Scientists often twist the info... either that, or assume that what they say is 100% right. They may not be 100% right. Benefit of doubt.
Jesus fuck, you constantly prove that you don't fucking understand even a little bit of science. Yeah, it might not be 100% right, so fucking what? Science is all about using the most accurate methods we have to come to the best possible conclusion. There's always the possibility it's wrong, but that's completely fucking irrelevant. If you don't trust scientists on shit like this, then get the fuck off your computer because it's a devil machine that runs off black magic.
Reliant on faith, yes.A lot of things are reliant on faith... Iike the Big Bang.
The universe is expanding, decreasing entropy, and so on and so forth (I love astronomy, too. <3)
That all points to the Big Bang. But can we say that it really happened? Not really.
fuckyoufuckyoufuckyoou The Big Bang happened, there is overwhelming evidence and support for it, and the fact that you think otherwise once again demonstrates that you have absolutely no knowledge of science or sense of consensus in the scientific community. We can say it really happened. Is it possible it didn't happen? Sure, but that tiny chance is straight up not worth considering.
"Proof" is overrated. :PRemember the time when scientists thought abiogenesis was real?
I'm sure they didn't think they were wrong, then.
Then Louis Pasteur came along~
Now, we all now that abiogenesis is wrong... without doubt.
You. Are. Fucking. Dumb.
That early (and somewhat bizarre) theory of abiogensis was disproved, but there are still many models of abiogenesis, some of which have a great deal of support.
I do admit that. Heck, I always tell my mom that "science and religion shouldn't mix." Why? Because that's what I believe. I'm not saying that science is 100% right. I'm just saying religion shouldn't be... too mixed with science."I don't think this should be done, that's why I'm doing it"
Fuck you.
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Argument? No. I don't want to start an argument.
I know some people believe the Theory of Evolution is true or whatnot, and really, I could care less.
People have opinions - I respect that. I was just stating mine.
Edit: @Defeatist Elitist
Like I said - its my opinion. (Well, sort of. There isn't much evidence supporting macroevolution.)
I believe in microevolution, though. :P
Yeah, but in this case your opinion is wrong and you're happily shitting it all over the place, so fuck you.
Also, while microevolution and macroevolution are indeed things, they are not as different as you seem to think, and you're blindly repeating creationist dogma. If you actually understood the theory of evolution even remotely, you would understand why what you've said seems fucking insane (now if you'd said that natural selection was not the primary driver of a lot of macroevolution than hey, there is a lot of debate about that, but either way, evolution fucking happens, whether micro or macro).
let's avoid updating the serenes_txt twitter feed
in Far from the Forest...
Posted
We've got a regular fucking Sherlock Holmes here people.