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Hmm, Kellam early promoted is barely better than Frederick at all statwise, is probably not worth the first or second Master Seal (C8-C10), and he requires turtling to train and has way worse weapon rank. Plus, you could use that exp to train Chrom or Stahl/Sully instead, who can actually fight well in the Plegia/early Valm/early Children paralogue arc with a little investment. Later on, the latter two can potentially give Paladin Pair Up which is 4 Skill/Spd vs. 1 move (they could also be GK too). Chrom helps Lucina’s bases and probably another child’s too. Of course Kellam is trainable, but circumstances seem to make him a worse option for investment than others. I agree there’s lots of exp in Lunatic, but if you’re using a balanced team, I don’t remember the exp curve to be as lenient as you’re claiming. My Avatar (promoted with the first Master Seal in C8, has Veteran) barely reached 20/15 in time for the children’s arrival. I remember specifically barely getting Rally Spectrum in time for Morgan/Sevara. I remember thinking it was not really feasible to pass other --/15 skills to the children. I tend to rout every map as convenient in casual play as well, so I wasn't rushing the content. ofc, it's another playstyle thing I guess; It certainly seems possible to pass Galeforce in no-grind if you're dedicated about it. Nowi has like ~30 Str/Def with the Dragonstone+ boosts at max level? And as you noted, just 18 Spd. Not that impressive imo. When the promoted units show up en masse (C17-ish), she’ll have issues. Plus, just compare base Tiki (with still 10 levels to grow) to her. >_>. Tiki herself has problems later on too; she’s mainly a filler. Nah is probably comparable to Tiki though she can get some nice skill inheritance. True enough. I don’t bother staff grinding myself, but it’s pretty easy (just beware money I guess). Brady/Owain are probably still flimsy in their respective classes though, compared to some other children.

Some of my thoughts, some for elaboration and as some are bit different than Czar_Yoshi's 1. I'll say yes, though I have no idea how to accurately judge player skill. I'll say this, it's arguably more fun than a regular Lunatic run, since it's far harder to steamroll with single pairs like the standard Avatar/Chrom if no Second Seals. Broken things such as Veteran are gimped by the level gap. Nosferatu is less available as the only 2nd gen with access are certain Morgans. Manaketes/Avoid-stacking can't faceroll. etcetc. 2. No, all chapters can be done very reliably with the correct strategy. However, it may be very challenging if it's your first Lunatic run or such. 3. When I did this challenge, I had full deployment every map and used Chrom/Sully, Avatar/Cordelia, Gregor/Cherche and their children. Filled out the remaining slots with prepromos, staff users, Pair Up or Rally fodder, Olivia, etc. Though I did focus exp into those pairings, as possible, early on. A partial playlog (contains early and lategame) is in my sig if you're curious. 4. You'll most probably want to train the children for lategame. 20/20 parents are too weak. It's probably possible to turtle with Rallies with the parents, but it's way easier to just use the children as fighters imo. Their Paralogues are also great for extra exp. I'd say no Second Seal Lunatic (+no grinding, etc) is probably comparable with FE9 Maniac or FE6 HM (it's probably harder than the other games released in the west, except for maybe FE11 H5?), given you understand how to properly use and abuse all of the FE13 mechanics (how to appropriately use Rescue Staves, Pair Up, Rallies, Tonics, how children inheritance works, etc). Good advice in general. Some comments: Too true about Frederick. His true bases are actually hilarious (2 base Str, 0 base Def before class bonuses? >_>) Kellam is too hard to train (slow and lances vs. earlygame Axe enemies) to be worth it imo, since parents are almost inevitably support units in the lategame. Exp investment doesn't make him too much better than just base Kellam as a Def Pair Up bot (arguably his most useful function). Rally Defense is a potential use, certainly. If you're not grinding, Galeforce may come too late to be a good inheritance skill. You'll have to delay the children's recruitment, which makes them harder to train up. Saving easy paralogues to train them is one way to handle this. Sevara is still easily one of best children since Hero is an op class (Probably the best. Sol + Armthrift Helswath on the hardest stages? Yesplz). Note that Nowi loses her main advantage in No SS runs, which is really quick leveling after reclassing back in Manakete. Her low bases combined with the level cap mean she is a lot worse than in a regular run. Nah can be useful, but would like high stat inheritance since she only has 20 more levels to grow. otoh, Tiki is a filler option than I found some niche uses for lategame. Note that Brady/Inigo/Owain and such may have bad base stats unless you staff/dance grind their parents for exp. They also probably won't really have great skill inheritance. Also, while stuff like Rally Spectrum/Speed/Defense and Sol/Nosferatu are not necessary to complete the challenge, they make things much, much easier and so it's worth trying to plan them into your team. tbh, I was probably overprepared my first attempt at it and found myself wishing I had passed down or gone for more offensive skills like Luna/Ignis instead of Rallies. Though that's mostly a playstyle thing than anything.

Frederick can beat the earlygame chapters highly reliably given the correct strategy, just that exp goes to him instead of +Def Avatar. There’s still plenty enough exp (even without grinding) to beat the game as long as you slowly start phasing out Frederick’s use eventually. +Spd Avatar can be a bit of a glass cannon, but definitely still workable. I remember using one on my first blind Lunatic run. You may want to consider sticking with swords, as least in the Plegia arc, to easily dodge the numerous Axe enemies. Let us know if you want any more specifics and I’m sure we can help.

iirc on my last L+ run it felt possible to do any C3 enemy configuration with a competent Avatar (near/below average) and Frederick (near base). Kellam is an important part of that because he can give +Def Pair Up without tying up Frederick (to trivialize cases of low Luna+ density) and is an extra unit with competent Str, (with a Javelin no less), for improved player phase offense. That's important b/c the only really hard part of C3 is avoiding the pincer in the bottom by clearing one of the bottom groups before the other arrives. The rest of the map can be kited. Interesting to consider him as a meatshield, but I'm not exactly sure how it works. Don't you still get pincered?

Managed to catch the end earlier and trying to look through the vod as I can. From what I've seen, really nice preparation and clean execution. And very fast ofc. Great work to Molotov/YayMarsha ^_^ Basically as some others have alluded to, I think if Bertin had set the estimate higher (like 2:30) and played more conservatively (marathon strats are not necessarily % plays or ss/rta strats), there would be far less controversy in general even if he was stubborn about no RNG manip (still silly, imho. This is a speedrun). It would also help if he was more like Werster in meticulously and continuously communicating his thought process regarding contingencies and how current decisions/RNG affect (sometimes far off) future plans. As it was, bertin both had bad luck and made avoidable mistakes (though understandable given marathon pressure), and the impression just wasn't good even if bertin is an excellent speedrunner in general, which I assume he is given his popularity and other runs. Some of us may have still complained that Vykan or whoever could have done it in like half the time (gotta go fast), but what can you do? >_> Essentially while RNG may add tension in some cases, the massive resets both wasted time and weren't exciting to rewatch at all. I think avoiding those would have prevented most of the awkward issues, even remaining unoptimized, as seen by an audience who is mostly unaware of potential RNG manip.

Oh I certainly agree, I was speaking a more nebulous "wtf I've never seen that before" sense. Not too much game mechanics/physics breaking in FE, beyond the intended. While there's also notable technical movement/cursor demands necessary in optimized runs, it doesn't 'look' that technical and crazy-looking. On the surface, it mostly looks like you moved some characters to some random positions and just got really lucky. ofc it's hard to judge the general viewer opinion on this (probably doesn't exist a consensus either) and I may not be thinking of the correct tricks atm.

I agree with the sentiments expressed so far regarding the optimization in the AGDQ run, in both a strategic and technical sense. Honestly, if I was more aware who Molotov and Bertin were wrt to FE speedrunning, I would have tried more toward the Molotov run. >_> I think a truly optimized run could be impressive in the both fixed RNG and not fixed RNG games. Really good commentary would be needed to appreciate and emphasize the strategizing/routing ofc, something a la Pokemon and Golden Sun. Inevitably some people prefer the action/platformer speedruns, but there's also precedent for people really enjoying RNG heavy (or fixed), less technical/flashy, and long downtime games, if the routing is very good (and the runner is entertaining, I suppose). tbh in the GBA games, there's really no excuse about RNG, though I understand the concerns about entertainment value. IIRC, I read somewhere on SDA the AGDQ organizers specifically were concerned about it, but were impressed by some test runs using RNG manip.

All the depromotions I’ve tried like Wyvern!Frederick and Sorc!Libra and Mage!Anna have all been disappointing. A lot of lolstat synergy silliness like Thief!Kellam and Knight!Sumia are amusing at first, but not that good either. They’re passable because reclassing for stats is so good, but otherwise unexceptional. I’ve actually found Panne/Lon’qu/Sully to Wyvern to be very similar and to work fairly well. Oh, in Lunatic, at least.

Most of the best dialogue is in the DLCs (not just Future Past, either). I wasn't that impressed by any of the plot/supports (about par for FE) but nearly all the DLC convos were notably amusing/interesting to some extent. I found this cast to be by far the most heartwarming. As many as stated, there exists love/hate for Awakening because there exist people who love/hate it. Opinions, etc. The hate is probably marginal compared to the overall player population and popular opinion. As for why it 'seems' the hate is so widespread, it's probably at least partially because of how much it contrasts with the mainstream opinion, because criticism on a fansite is always awkward (the why-are-you-even-still-here bitterness), and because of a few loud/incessant posters in a few fan communities (particularly on gfaqs/SF). When it's mostly the same people (on both sides) who feel strongly about and post in these topics, the same points tend to come up repeatedly.

The implication being that they are typically chosen to speedrun because they reliably have 100% availability without going off-path and ohko the most things with the least investment. There are obviously many other real-time considerations, however, of various debatable importance, that both help or are against starters. For example, obviously speedruns also won't take into consideration the encounter and catch rate of non-starter pokemon, as they'll just reset until it occurs. But this might be something that matters (alot?) to other players. Just glancing at the Kalos starters specifically: Chespin is slow and Grass sucks. Fennekin gets no good fire stab (Blaze implications) for forever. Froakie is probably decent from early Surf access but low defenses makes it harder to setup X items. (btw I dropped Greninja b/c I didn't really like him, not because he wasn't that good) Meanwhile, Lucario is part Steel (nerf only somewhat matters against ghost), and is slinging around what can be Adaptability Power-Up-Punch/Aura Sphere/Close Combat from 145/140 base atk/spatk. Coverage is a minor issue (it's stuff like Rock Tomb, Shadow Claw, etc), but I'm not sure how much it matters, but probably a bit against fliers. bros it's actually all about that Drought+STAB+Blaze Flamethrower off 159 base spatk

Speed Boost taking up unnecessary animation time/text boxes 0/10. Everything seems pretty usable to me. All the new pokes seem like they get some competent STAB. Not too attached to any of them though. Exp share seems like it breaks casual runs. Kalos Starters are okay, didn't seem too special to me. I picked Froakie but pretty much dropped Greninja for Lapras/Yveltal Charmander pretty amazing, but massive nostalgia bias ofc. Snorlax pretty boring. lolucario. Let's not pretend gamefreak cares about in-game balance. Lapras with that BoltBeamSurf coverage + Perish Song. Yveltal with that opNosferatu. Perhaps more serious thoughts another time. My run was pretty much Charizard and friends and it was surprisingly really fun. just like 15 years ago.

Gold and bexp only have value (for the purpose of this list) because they can be used to potentially improve turncount/reliability. They have no inherent value if deliberately unused (there is no funds/exp rank or such). Do you agree/disagree? From my understanding, the reason it's accepted that using less resources is a good thing is because one could allocate those resources elsewhere. For example giving that bexp to say...Marcia and improve the robustness of meeting her benchmarks (if in random mode). Or Jill or Oscar or Boyd/Soren/Ilyana or whoever in other contexts.

Probably because there's this awkward situation where Mia was considered amazing by casual players and pretty popular in general, but was then considered terrible by 'vets' (Devdan > Mia was a memorable thing at one time), and now considered good/decent again b/c of a resource dump and maybe sometimes sorta partial credit for a single turn shave? >_> Anyways, I agree with the opinion that Mia vs. Zihark is mostly a wash when they're both around and so Mia's potential earlier on puts her barely a bit over. Not totally sure on Stefan. For simplicity I'd drop him merely for recruitment costs, but if this list doesn't want to go that way...I suppose I'd side with Stefan, if his stat advantage is actually meaningful against FE9 enemies (is it overkill?). That combined with the resources that could be used elsewhere might put him over the other SMs.

Children gain exp so fast, and their bases/skills are so good (if parents were actually used), that they'll usually outclass/match their parents after a map or 2 of babying (sometimes even just the chapter they join). The key is to be patient and not early-promote, thinking you need the stats now. Give them time to grow unpromoted and reclassed. It's harder to do after C16, but still possible, especially with Rally assistance. Later children have the benefit of slightly stronger stat/skill inheritance and often better base classes as well (Merc, Wyvern). Though, the easiest way to use children ingame is probably to save easy Paralogues for them. Paralogue 1 is nice to do early to get a few early units rolling, but the exp from P2, P3 can be saved if desired (Anna from P4 is nice to get early). Other children paralogues are also good. Veteran screws with the exp/stat curve too much, so there's that. But it's no problem in slower-paced play. Basically, imo it's probably harder to baby non-Avatar characters earlygame than the children midgame. Simply because you have more competent units to weaken stuff, Rallies, etc.

I think your position is very fair and valid discussion material. I think, in most cases, people won’t disagree hugely with you or your conclusions. I am a bit curious what’s the purpose of having the bexp limit at all though. I don't think it adds anything very valuable. The only other thing I would ask is how would you define stronger or more durable? As I understand it, we’ve gotten past looking at numbers in a void, so we try to compare to enemy stats. We’ve gotten past comparing to cherry-picked enemy stats in a database, so we prefer to add in-game context. In a given chapter, what enemies can a unit reach, or will they fight? What does it mean to be “better” at fighting certain enemies vs. others? In my eyes, the logical end to that thought process is something intricately connected to turncounts. It is unfortunately incredibly difficult to break into the hivemind of commonly accepted thought, but that’s how these things go. Plus, changing community consensus toward an accepted standard is a whole different beast than examining the inherent self-consistency of a standard. Some arguments were admittedly the former (dismissing the argument because it was different/new/old) while some were the latter (pointing out obvious, potentially irreconcilable issues). Re: Snowy’s stuff: Can I just briefly interject how utterly hilarious it would be if someone went into any other community, proposing to tier characters based on what would happen if a “casual” player refused to use certain dominant/useful tactics? >_> EDIT: Not really seriously meaning it in any way. I just found it funny to consider, like in a FG list for example. <_<

I simply didn’t (and still don’t) like how, in some of your posts, you seem to be dodging certain (fundamentally crucial) points as if they don’t matter and instead bring up tangentially related points. I understand why you did so, I just don't like it in an environment where we at least somewhat try for logic-based discussions. However, you’re also being “reasonable” in the sense that your posting style often (but not always, given recent bitterness) appears to be refreshingly accommodating and optimistic (particularly given the oftentimes snarky opposition). You are correct in that it is subjective. However, it is still less difficult to deal with than when also introducing more arbitrariness like “intuitive resource allocation”. (This is also why some of us prefer a more technical and statistical description of efficiency.) In addition, arbitrarily setting a turncount cutoff at the bexp limit does little to help resolve character differences. The idea of efficiency (or similar standards) works because it’s an exercise in optimization, something helps complete a chapter relatively faster, or more reliably, and thus we choose to consider it better. What is the actual metric in your proposal of meeting the bexp limits? What makes a unit better than another? (I pretty sure every character can technically meet the bexp limits, quite consistently, and regardless, a binary distinction is not useful) though at this point we're reiterating every "efficiency" discussion since forever. The topic is well-argued, I think, among many topics in FE history (and even some recent ones. btw I agree with PKL on most things, except I would consider Nailah > Tibarn. Her 1-8 and 1-E are really nice as well.

I don’t think the Iron forge ohko is that relevant since you could forge Steel anyway (in 1-E, with foreknowledge I suppose…) or just use the Brave Axe. Plus, there’s fog, so often Jill isn’t PP attacking if she’s flying out, and will take the hit on EP regardless if she ohkos or just orkos. I was just noting that 103 seemed arbitrary at a glance, so a simple vector with a range of enemy atks could reveal some interesting information. (estimating it numerically is way easier than the silliness I was imagining. Not sure what I was thinking. Cool stuff though. >_>) @dondon. This discussion is too meta for me. <_< EDIT: oh nvm I think I misread the Energy Drop point?

Haar needs Spd to double stuff-> Give Speedwing. Is intuitive. Jill (T) needs Hp/Def to survive stuff -> Give Seraph Robe/Dracoshield. Is not intuitive. Problem? >_> I cannot tell who’s making satirical posts vs. serious ones anymore. I give this “intuitiveness” movement a 9/10 troll rating. Only a few thousand more posts to reach a 10/10 rating matching that of “efficiency”. @Redwall. 18 Spd Tigers are rare anyways. Is the Energy Drop relevant assuming Beastfoe? Are those survival numbers including avoid or just Atk vs. Def? If you have the code and the time/interest, a table or plot (rather than a single value) would be easy to make and be quite interesting/elucidating, as would a comparison to her peers.

Celes “claims” that Jill does not need to be early promoted, and is 20/1 by 3-6. I ran the numbers a while earlier for Jill (N). See below. Note some overall percentages are lazy multiplications, but should be in the ballpark. Each binomial result should be mostly correct. There’s also some potential bexp silliness and handwaving, but oh well. Of course, Celes prefers a far more strict turn-focused playstyle than is otherwise accepted (and recall, he thinks Jill is the absolute best in the game, which none of us are currently claiming). This actually makes Jill better in a sense, as one could imagine leniency in strategies getting her a few more levels than Celes claims, which eases the numbers. It’s fairly apparent from the above that Jill (T) is way better off (needing just 2 of 3 of the 2xSeraphs+Draco, instead of all of 2xSeraphs+Draco+Speedwing to meet Celes’ lofty onerounding + 3hko benchmark). It is also possible (assuming this is not necessarily optimal play) that Jill does not need to super-reliably reach the 3hko benchmark (against S rank Tigers) in the first place, as her relative competition is squishy and possibly 2hko’d by some other things/combinations (like Sothe/Zihark) or needs similar statbooster investment anyway (Nolan, who also needs more Spd). She uniquely has flight, which makes it also easier to pick her battles (I suppose, assuming the player is competent or something) and gives her more flexibility in general. And somebody has to get Beastfoe (err...if it's "intuitive" enough to obtain) or Paragon, so I assume Jill, who has the best beorc Spd/Def combination (faster than Nolan, better durability than Sothe/Zihark), is as a good candidate as any. And is quite possibly the best candidate? (Wait…side note, isn’t it more intuitive to just give her everything and make a super-flier rather than give her less, but precisely just enough to meet benchmarks? Dunno, but I’ll leave you all to argue whether it’s “intuitive” or not to give her those statboosters.) @RFoF. You say stuff like it’s “simple” or “hard” or “obvious”. Your counterargument to people asking “why is your judgment any better than mine/anyone else” is literally “no you are wrong. trust me i am right”. Not only is it dodging the question, it’s proving their point. While the ambiguity of intuition is not a huge issue currently (at least to me, you seem fairly reasonable thus far), it has problematic implications for the list in general. While you can ignore it for a time, it is a valid concern (and fundamentally inconsistent, actually). Does this truly not bother you? EDIT: for some clarification

Re: What Jill needs (actual FE discussion): 20/1 Jill usually needs around +20 effective Hp (typically something like +14 Hp, +2 Def) through boosters or transfers to barely be 4hko'd by the hard hitting stuff in 3-6, most (like 80% or something) of the time. Iirc she also needs +2 Spd to reliably double Tigers to orko with Beastfoe. This (apparently) lets her snowball for the rest of the game. Regardless of the precise numbers, I think Jill is way better than her current position even if not using the optimal resource allocation for the optimal turncounts. Moreover, relative to her competition, she is the only flier, is not a Laguz, and has the best Spd/Def combination of the relevant cast. I’m fairly certain this is near consensus by now; this was even mentioned by some earlier posts, I’m just drawing attention back to it. I’d also put Jill (T) in top and Jill (N) in high, at least. Btw I agree with dropping Volug as well. Re: philosophy of resource allocation Yet another tiering discussion derailing to philosophy. I wonder why that is… Efficiency (imo) works as a framework because it encourages optimization and sometimes evokes elegance in planning, which strategists (FE is a strategy game, right?) can appreciate. It inherently imposes constraints on many things, notably (in this case) resource allocation. One can introduce additional subjective/arbitrary factors like “intuitiveness” to address stuff like resource allocation, but personally, I don’t see the point. It’s messy, and efficiency is already sufficient. There are admittedly valid arguments to the contrary (many have been offered recently in this and other topics). I’m just offering a reason why appealing to the “average/common/casual/basic knowledge/intuitive” player is perhaps incompatible with the present tiering logic. Whereas any tiering standard is certainly possible to use to rank characters, it still at least should remain logically self-consistent. One may find that difficult in an “intuition-based” list. (in fact, is that not mostly what sparked the explosion of posts?) Vagueness for the sake of discussion is whatever. Deliberate inconsistencies under the dishonest pretense of rational arguments and “helping” novices is just silly, and more problematic. (okay, I admit I’m curious. Do people actually believe there to be an audience for a “novice” tier list, particularly for 5+ year old games? All recent expeditions, even for more recent games, have suggested otherwise. Note that many of us efficiency/LTC people did not post much at all in the recent FE13 list and it still died quickly.) Don’t let me stop you though. >_> I like this kind of excited discussion. To read, if nothing else.

:(( If I had more resources (time, hardware, etc...) I'd definitely join some of this stuff. Ever since getting back into FE, I've always been rather interested in this kind of thing (moreso single-segment stuff and drafts/races than absolute lowest RTA/game time/turns). I think it has potential to get much bigger too (perhaps after AGDQ, as I think an FE game will be run there). Regardless, good stuff, and I'll try to follow more closely in the future. ^_^

Well, you're welcome to complain. But don't be surprised that if you do so incessantly on a (niche) fan forum, you'll rub a few people the wrong way. Moreover, this is something that's not likely to ever change. Fanservice is so named for a reason. I also agree with those who say it's mild in this game. It's almost like complaining anime is the cancer killing FE when...wait Awakening saved FE. >_>

bros, we're talking about a game series where the original main lord wore a skirt and a tiara. Dem legs. So scandalous. Okay, now back your regularly scheduled fan-raging segment of "stop-liking-what-I-don't-like" followed by "that's-like-your-opinion-man".

If you want to beat it with minimal resets use Bow users, especially ones with Veteran. Search for Interceptor's guide for tips. His guide is great in general for getting past the earlygame (which is probably the hardest part). If you just want to beat it, brute force with an Avatar solo and use Galeforce hit and run and/or Nosferatu+Sol (both together) tanking.

As more and more people are realizing, stuff like Nosferatu isn't necessary if you use a small-ish team. In fact if you take advantage of reclassing first, staying unpromotion for as long as possible for the exp gain, easy Paralogues like Owain's, Kjelle's, skills like Veteran, special classes like Manakete with accelerated exp gain after reclassing, the children with their really high bases, etc, one could do full deployment every chapter and train a relatively large team as well. It certainly can be easier to use self-healing like Nosferatu/Sol and just 1-2 pairs, but is not necessary. Endgame itself just relies on Falchion effective damage and Dual Strikes not proccing Pavise. There are other ways, but they're typically much less reliable, especially in no-grind Lunatic play.