Ranking each game by class: Dark Mages / Druids / Sorcerors

[Jotari]

52 minutes ago, Whisky said:

Ah that’s fair. We’re looking at him completely differently then. I was thinking of him as a low investment low reward unit that you can basically promote immediately and have a semi decent but unimpressive unit. That’s why I wasn’t expecting to be able to double most enemies, especially Wyverns.

Per SerenesForest HM stats thread, Wyvern Riders in Ch21 have Avoid around 30-35 with Lords having around 35-40. At 125 Hit, we’d have around 90-95 displayed Hit against Riders and 85-90 against Lords. If you’re throwing him up against several enemies at once relying on him to not miss or else he dies then I’d consider that pretty risky, but could definitely be fun to try out. Sometimes the risky play can be more fun anyway. I’ve taken risks in Ironmans before if I thought it’d be more fun than the safer option.

Mercs and Heroes have Avoid of around 40-45 reducing your displayed Hit to 80-85 against them, and of course you risk getting doubled by them.

Well part of the reason I picked Ch21 as an example is because I gave up on Rei being able to double Wyverns sooner. You fight a fair number of Wyverns in the chapters following Rei’s joining and I don’t think he has any hope of doubling them for a while, and he’s going to take some time to build support too. He can get it eventually. Like you said, high investment high reward.

There may be some enemy types that Rei is effective against earlier though, like Fighters perhaps.

I didn’t pick that level because I thought it was a reasonable level for him to get to by that point. I picked it because that’s when he reaches Niime’s base Spd on average. And at that Spd, both of them are only doubling slower Wyverns, but probably not most of them, and definitely not the Lords.

Also on that note, it takes around 33 MagAtk to 2HKO Ch21 Wyvern Lords, give or take. There’s some variance in enemies’ stats. Point being that base Niime and average 20/6 Rei probably won’t 2HKO most Lords, which means they’re 3RKOing. Maybe Aircalibur isn’t as important for the Riders, but it seems like a huge benefit against Lords.

I said earlier that I don’t think Rei has any hope of doubling Wyverns for a while after he joins and it’s going to take quite some investment. Eventually he may reach a point where he can reliably double and kill most Wyvern Riders, but there’s a lot of chapters before that where having access to an effective damage weapon like Aircalibur would be really to nice to have.

I don’t know what level Rei would reasonably be at this point. Really just depends on how much you want to invest in him.

Hey, it’s still 5 more against Lance users. You can often play around using your units in the situations that they’re best in while covering their weaknesses with other units. I’m not afraid of going up to bat for Axes in FE6. I think they get a bit over criticized for their low accuracy, which isn’t an issue against Lances, and there are a lot of Lance enemies in the game. I’m also not sure Rei can really have much more Skl than the Axe users if you’ve been investing in them. Geese’s average Skill isn’t lower until very high level. Garret starts with 15 Skl which isn’t bad. Hit boosting supports, I’m not sure about. Also they can use Swordreavers to have the same hit against Sword enemies as Nosferatu, disregarding support differences. Also I think Axes generally have decent Hit against Axe enemies since they have low Avoid. Though Dark Magic would probably be notably better against Bow users or magic users.

So you’re judging class lines by aesthetic, and perhaps thematic, while I’m judging them by mechanics.

I don't feel like you are judging by mechanics, feels more like you're judging based on an individual weapon type. As the mechanics of how dark mages work in regards to other classes are completely different between GBA, DS, 3DS and Three Houses. In one they use a separate weapon type, in another the other weapon type doesn't exist, in another it's combined with magic as a class skill (or skill skill in Aversa's case) and in the last it's universally applicable and also combined with Black Magic for the purpose of weapon rank growths. That is not a consistent set of mechanics.

52 minutes ago, Whisky said:

To me when I think of what makes Shaman distinct from Mages in the GBA games, it’s that they use Dark Magic, more so than that they wear darker robes.

I haven’t played Fates but don’t the two factions in that game have basically the same classes but with different themes? Do you count those classes as the basic version of that type of class or as completely different classes?

 

In general, no, I wouldn't call themselves the same class. Soldier and Spear Fighter are different. But for the sake of a conversation like this, yeah, seems like it'd be fair enough to discuss them, otherwise we're basically ignoring an entire game.

[Whisky]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

I don't feel like you are judging by mechanics, feels more like you're judging based on an individual weapon type.

Weapon type usage is a mechanic. In the GBA games, using Dark Magic is the chief mechanical difference between Shaman/Druid, and Mage/Sage.

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

As the mechanics of how dark mages work in regards to other classes are completely different between GBA, DS, 3DS and Three Houses.

Right, classes and mechanics do work very differently between games. That’s caused a few complications in previous threads about what classes count and which threads we should discuss them in. Some classes aren’t in some games, in some games they’re sort of in the game but are very different. This topic series doesn’t fit perfectly between each game, we’ve been having to take some liberty’s in counting certain classes even if they don’t fit perfectly.

Classes aren’t always the same aesthetically either. Warlock in 3H looks very different from a Sage.

[Jotari]

12 minutes ago, Whisky said:

Weapon type usage is a mechanic. In the GBA games, using Dark Magic is the chief mechanical difference between Shaman/Druid, and Mage/Sage.

Right, classes and mechanics do work very differently between games. That’s caused a few complications in previous threads about what classes count and which threads we should discuss them in. Some classes aren’t in some games, in some games they’re sort of in the game but are very different. This topic series doesn’t fit perfectly between each game, we’ve been having to take some liberty’s in counting certain classes even if they don’t fit perfectly.

 

 

Classes aren’t always the same aesthetically either. Warlock in 3H looks very different from a Sage.

Indeed, so you can't go by mechanics to such an extreme extent that discounting DS games purely because an overall mechanic doesn't exist is silly.

When I say aesthetics I'm not talking about purely visuals, but unit concept. Even if dark magic doesn't exist as a mechanic, the dark mages are still using dark magic.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Jotari

[Cysx]

Counting Dark knight in Awakening and Fates for the record, but not in 3H, where it belongs in the Mage/Sage/Mage knight conversation imo. Even if it cannot use Dark magic in the former two, Dark mage does promote directly into it, and reclassing being character specific (unlike in 3H), it's always part of the package, or absent completely.
Don't want to oversell this since I ultimately don't have that much to say, but yeah, I think this is the proper thread for them.

FE5 : S
This could have been an A, as while Salem is definitely a great asset overall, he's no Safy. Still, because of Fatigue as well as overall flexibility you really want a second A rank staff user asap, and he's the only candidate for a while. His performance with actual dark magic is, as others said, quite limited, as he'll always be weighed down by 12 when using it, although it hits quite hard at least. He can also use Wind at base (it's D rank, many mages can't), which is good. Where others have personal staves or movement stars, he has actually good HP, allowing him to be fielded more often, be exposed to ballistae early, etc, and a workable Bld stat, which allows him to rescue low Bld characters (such as Leif, potentially) and Rewarp with them, instead of consuming Warp staff uses which can be pretty sparse, especially on route B / if you skip the 12x one. Cuz, you know, it's hard to justify waiting 30 turns for it even if you're not going for ranks.

FE6 : B
Probably the trickiest to rate, though we all know why. I prefer to consider every candidate at once, and by that measure a C would have worked as well. Niime is great, she brings something no other character does, although I don't really agree that getting her to S Dark magic for Apocalypse is all that simple, and she's not around for that long. Raigh is fine, he lacks flexibility but is likely your best Nosferatu candidate if you want to take the plunge. Sofia is a strong candidate for worst magic unit in the series, and is only somewhat redeemed by getting you a promo item in a chapter she's forced in, right before they're buyable for 5000G with silver card in hand. It's almost fascinating how bad they've made her for seemingly no reason. She can grind the bandit reinforcements in her join chapter with some success with one or two bodyguards(strong, strong emphasis on some) thanks to desert movement, but there's remarkably little reason to bother.

FE7 : Tentative A
I've never had that much success with Canas myself, but it's easy to see what he brings to the table, and yes, +3 Spd through promotion is quite nice, as is getting Luna and Nosferatu as pseudo prf weaponry and staff utility.

FE8 : B
... because Ewan bad, but Summoner good, really good even. The AI just isn't built to deal with Summons. If no Ewan, this would only miss S for availability reason. If not for Summoner, well it's not like Knoll is a combat master and both Luna and Nosferatu have seen better days, so this would be a D.

FE10 : D
I do think Pelleas is a nice novelty character, and that his performance integrates decently well in the story, aka he's... bad, unfortunately. And Radiant Dawn sure isn't hurting for mediocre units to favor, especially this late. He has major accuracy and AS issues unless you forge him a thunder tome, and a mere glance at Bastian (who joins the next chapter on Tibarn route) can really put things in perspective. What Bastian lacks in potential, well Pelleas really doesn't have either. Could have been an E, but you know, he gets a free chapter and isn't a liability.

SD : Abstain
NMotE : Abstain

Awakening : S
Most Nosferatu iterations throughout the series have been restricted in some way or another, either through availability, price, lack of good users, combat itself not being a huge focus, etc. Awakening brings no such considerations; this is an army lawnmower, buyable freely past the first half of the game when enemy density starts exploding (in a game that showers you with cash) and you can no longer facetank everything, and Nostank is the most standout build of good ol' Robin. Not like the class is too shabby either, as Vengeance is one of the best procs in the series with pretty easy ~100% rate, Tomebreaker invalidates 25% of what you face, and even Hex and Anathema are great. Dark Knight on the other hand doesn't bring much of anything to the table, but I don't think that really matters. Don't find other Dark tomes to be a huge deal beyond Waste allowing Sorcerers to kill Grima, and that's not because they're bad. Mostly, Ruin and Mire are utility-based in a game where there tends to be no room for that, and bosskills are lenient enough that Nosferatu or even your random Fire tome can usually do the job.
If not for Robin (or rather, if Robin was bad), well there'd still be Morgan, or even Lucina to an extent, and Miriel can work too after putting in the time. It'd still probably drop to A then due to an even lower earlygame presence, but that wouldn't be enough to kill the class/weapon, it's that dumb.

Fates : Tentative B
This is primarily for Conquest, as the class has pretty much no presence in BR, and remarkably little relevance in Rev outside of Leo, to my knowledge.
Anyway, another tough one. Odin is mediocre, Nyx is specific, Ophelia has a barrier of entry, and Leo is pretty good. Nosferatu and Excalibur are good but limited, and Dark Knight, the all around better class, gets neither. Dare I say that's good balancing, idk, and there's a lot going on here, but my experience with two of those characters is very limited. I'd say that's roughly where it lands overall.

3H : D
Okay, so why no Dark knight when I just counted it for the previous two contenders, well for the reasons you can probably guess; it fits more as the general offensive magic promotion than a specifically dark magic thing. Doesn't help that, yes, there's an existing seal precisely meant for that, and this class doesn't use it. For the record, this would likely push the rating to a B, Dark knight is pretty good in 3H, if a bit undermined by DLC from my understanding.
... so anyway, Dark mage and Sorcerer are miscellaneous classes that don't build towards anything unlike their competition, and getting Fiendish blow from mage (aka, the meta for better or for worse) makes Sorcerer completely underwhelming. It's also locked to males when competent magic users are primarily female in 3H. Not like the class is completely incompetent, it's really not, but as said in previous threads, if no one wants to be in a class, that should count for something imo.

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 11/4/2023 at 9:41 PM, Whisky said:

At 125 Hit, we’d have around 90-95 displayed Hit against Riders and 85-90 against Lords. If you’re throwing him up against several enemies at once relying on him to not miss or else he dies then I’d consider that pretty risky, but could definitely be fun to try out. Sometimes the risky play can be more fun anyway. I’ve taken risks in Ironmans before if I thought it’d be more fun than the safer option.

Well keep in mind that Raigh himself has something past 75 avoid when on a forest with Lugh nearby. I don't remember wyvern hit rates but most of their numbers should be super low too. Toss in true hit and even if it were true that a single miss would lead to his death, the odds of it happening (consecutive hit, miss, hit) would be incredibly low. And of course some attacks may not 2HKO (depends on robes I'm sure), and some of these wyverns will be doubled where one miss won't be fatal. etc. I don't remember feeling in danger and I'm pretty sensitive to low-percent chances of death.

On 11/4/2023 at 9:41 PM, Whisky said:

I didn’t pick that level because I thought it was a reasonable level for him to get to by that point. I picked it because that’s when he reaches Niime’s base Spd on average. And at that Spd, both of them are only doubling slower Wyverns, but probably not most of them, and definitely not the Lords.

...

I don’t know what level Rei would reasonably be at this point. Really just depends on how much you want to invest in him.

For what it's worth, I think this conversation is showing that (at least to me) Raigh is only worth it on Hard if you're investing into him at least fairly heavily. If you're not gonna, just don't bother at all. He has too many benchmarks he wants to hit, and early promotion doesn't really help him hit them. On Normal you can probably get away with lighter investment, of course.

Missing the Wyvern Lords (either by damage or not doubling) is unfortunate but not the end of the world. If you enemy-phase down all the riders and leave the lords on death's door they're an easy mop-up next turn. I also don't think too many setups have a better showing here - Lugh himself is admittedly potentially one (especially if he gets lucky with speed growth, he can get many of the wyverns to zero hit iirc, and Aircalibur is obviously great in this situation. He also doubles them more easily).

(As a point of interest, using some numbers from a project for another site I have lying around, I can say that if you give Raigh around ~9% of the combat exp (i.e. spreading exp equally among a combat team of ~11) from his join map on, he'll hit around Level 20/8 for Murdock's map; most units vary between that and 20/10, with a few obvious exceptions. This was calculated for NM, but I don't believe HM changes much. Obviously this is an abstract ideal; a lot of things can change it in practice (especially completing maps extra fast and leaving a bunch of unharmed enemies) but gives an idea of what's possible depending on different levels of investment.)

On 11/4/2023 at 9:41 PM, Whisky said:

Hey, it’s still 5 more against Lance users. You can often play around using your units in the situations that they’re best in while covering their weaknesses with other units. I’m not afraid of going up to bat for Axes in FE6. I think they get a bit over criticized for their low accuracy, which isn’t an issue against Lances, and there are a lot of Lance enemies in the game. I’m also not sure Rei can really have much more Skl than the Axe users if you’ve been investing in them. Geese’s average Skill isn’t lower until very high level. Garret starts with 15 Skl which isn’t bad. Hit boosting supports, I’m not sure about.

Axes aren't bad in FE6, and I bring them up to observe that even in optimum conditions they barely outperform Nosferatu for hit. If you make the conditions less favourable to axes, such as against other weapons, or trying to attack from 2 range, they just plain start losing.

Geese's support situation is dire (59 turns to C with Echidna is his best), and Garret is little better (joins even later, need to save a Lilina support for him and even then it's significantly slower than Lugh/Raigh). Both fall behind Raigh for hit pretty quickly even against lance users (especially on Normal Mode for Garret, though if you want to argue we just don't use Garret on Normal that's fair).

On 11/4/2023 at 9:41 PM, Whisky said:

I haven’t played Fates but don’t the two factions in that game have basically the same classes but with different themes? Do you count those classes as the basic version of that type of class or as completely different classes?

I know this is an aside to your discussion with Jotari, but for what it's worth I definitely wouldn't say they have the same classes, in that in these threads I've usually only had to consider a Hoshido class or a Nohr class, but not both. Hero, Dark Mage, Valkyrie, Wyvern, Berserker, Armour, and Cavalier are Nohr; Swordmaster, Mage, Pegasus Knight are Hoshido. Thief is I think the only class we've talked about where I've seriously considered one from each side (and even then, the Nohr thief uses a bow and the Hoshido ones uses shuriken so they feel very different, if both most likely thieves because they share locktouch. Fighter is the other one which arguably has a representative on both sides, and those two are at least somewhat similar, though one emphasizes offence and one defence... you could argue that Fighter (the Nohr class) is just an unpromoted Berserker, actually, since it doesn't promote to Warrior.

[Jotari]

49 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Well keep in mind that Raigh himself has something past 75 avoid when on a forest with Lugh nearby. I don't remember wyvern hit rates but most of their numbers should be super low too. Toss in true hit and even if it were true that a single miss would lead to his death, the odds of it happening (consecutive hit, miss, hit) would be incredibly low. And of course some attacks may not 2HKO (depends on robes I'm sure), and some of these wyverns will be doubled where one miss won't be fatal. etc. I don't remember feeling in danger and I'm pretty sensitive to low-percent chances of death.

For what it's worth, I think this conversation is showing that (at least to me) Raigh is only worth it on Hard if you're investing into him at least fairly heavily. If you're not gonna, just don't bother at all. He has too many benchmarks he wants to hit, and early promotion doesn't really help him hit them. On Normal you can probably get away with lighter investment, of course.

Missing the Wyvern Lords (either by damage or not doubling) is unfortunate but not the end of the world. If you enemy-phase down all the riders and leave the lords on death's door they're an easy mop-up next turn. I also don't think too many setups have a better showing here - Lugh himself is admittedly potentially one (especially if he gets lucky with speed growth, he can get many of the wyverns to zero hit iirc, and Aircalibur is obviously great in this situation. He also doubles them more easily).

(As a point of interest, using some numbers from a project for another site I have lying around, I can say that if you give Raigh around ~9% of the combat exp (i.e. spreading exp equally among a combat team of ~11) from his join map on, he'll hit around Level 20/8 for Murdock's map; most units vary between that and 20/10, with a few obvious exceptions. This was calculated for NM, but I don't believe HM changes much. Obviously this is an abstract ideal; a lot of things can change it in practice (especially completing maps extra fast and leaving a bunch of unharmed enemies) but gives an idea of what's possible depending on different levels of investment.)

Axes aren't bad in FE6, and I bring them up to observe that even in optimum conditions they barely outperform Nosferatu for hit. If you make the conditions less favourable to axes, such as against other weapons, or trying to attack from 2 range, they just plain start losing.

Geese's support situation is dire (59 turns to C with Echidna is his best), and Garret is little better (joins even later, need to save a Lilina support for him and even then it's significantly slower than Lugh/Raigh). Both fall behind Raigh for hit pretty quickly even against lance users (especially on Normal Mode for Garret, though if you want to argue we just don't use Garret on Normal that's fair).

I know this is an aside to your discussion with Jotari, but for what it's worth I definitely wouldn't say they have the same classes, in that in these threads I've usually only had to consider a Hoshido class or a Nohr class, but not both. Hero, Dark Mage, Valkyrie, Wyvern, Berserker, Armour, and Cavalier are Nohr; Swordmaster, Mage, Pegasus Knight are Hoshido. Thief is I think the only class we've talked about where I've seriously considered one from each side (and even then, the Nohr thief uses a bow and the Hoshido ones uses shuriken so they feel very different, if both most likely thieves because they share locktouch. Fighter is the other one which arguably has a representative on both sides, and those two are at least somewhat similar, though one emphasizes offence and one defence... you could argue that Fighter (the Nohr class) is just an unpromoted Berserker, actually, since it doesn't promote to Warrior.

The one my mind went to when answered the question was Diviners and Onmyoji, as while they do look different, they are still fulfilling the mage and sage mold more or less like a glove.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The poll has closed. Based on these results, Tomorrow our next subject will be clerics / bishops (infantry healer) classes. Following that, Mages / Sages, Manaketes / Beast units, and finally infantry lancers

[Whisky]

On 11/5/2023 at 7:11 AM, Jotari said:

Indeed, so you can't go by mechanics to such an extreme extent that discounting DS games purely because an overall mechanic doesn't exist is silly.

When I say aesthetics I'm not talking about purely visuals, but unit concept. Even if dark magic doesn't exist as a mechanic, the dark mages are still using dark magic.

How so? I have a hard time seeing Dark Mages in the DS games as anything other than Mages cosplaying as Dark Mages.

I don’t actually care if you include them, they just seem weird to me because they just seem like regular mages. Gameplay wise I don’t even see any difference between them other than which characters can reclass into them.

On 11/6/2023 at 7:40 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Well keep in mind that Raigh himself has something past 75 avoid when on a forest with Lugh nearby. I don't remember wyvern hit rates but most of their numbers should be super low too. Toss in true hit and even if it were true that a single miss would lead to his death, the odds of it happening (consecutive hit, miss, hit) would be incredibly low. And of course some attacks may not 2HKO (depends on robes I'm sure), and some of these wyverns will be doubled where one miss won't be fatal. etc. I don't remember feeling in danger and I'm pretty sensitive to low-percent chances of death.

Yeah that’s fair. I’m curious what the Hit rates would be, I don’t think of Rei as being a very speedy or dodging unit but the support would help, and like you said, the combination of the high Hit and Avoid would make him unlikely to die.

On 11/6/2023 at 7:40 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

For what it's worth, I think this conversation is showing that (at least to me) Raigh is only worth it on Hard if you're investing into him at least fairly heavily. If you're not gonna, just don't bother at all. He has too many benchmarks he wants to hit, and early promotion doesn't really help him hit them. On Normal you can probably get away with lighter investment, of course.

On 11/6/2023 at 7:40 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Missing the Wyvern Lords (either by damage or not doubling) is unfortunate but not the end of the world. If you enemy-phase down all the riders and leave the lords on death's door they're an easy mop-up next turn. I also don't think too many setups have a better showing here - Lugh himself is admittedly potentially one (especially if he gets lucky with speed growth, he can get many of the wyverns to zero hit iirc, and Aircalibur is obviously great in this situation. He also doubles them more easily).

Sorry, I’m having formatting issues.

That makes sense, if you’re willing to put in the investment then he can turn out a lot better in the long run. I do think there’s some merit to the early promotion though, being that he becomes immediately better instead of eventually better. Roughly how long would you say it takes him to reach the performance you’re talking about? We’ve been talking about Ch21, does it take that long and before that he’s be pretty bad? Or is at roughly this level of performance a few chapters earlier?

I agree, it’s certainly not the end of the world if enemies survive, you have a whole team of units to back up Rei. You can have some Snipers take down the Lords, or Lugh, or something.

It’s hard to say how well other strategies would compare. If we give others units enough investment between experience and stat boosters then a lot of units can become quite capable. I’ve had success with Dieck on this map before, and Garret as well, sitting on a Cliff with a Killer Axe. Or of course you could just use a player phase focused strategy of taking down the Wyverns on player phase with several units. You have multiple options that work well, but I am convinced that the Rei Nosferatu tanking can work with reasonable reliability if you’re willing to put in the investment for him, and am interested in trying it out sometime.

On 11/6/2023 at 7:40 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

(As a point of interest, using some numbers from a project for another site I have lying around, I can say that if you give Raigh around ~9% of the combat exp (i.e. spreading exp equally among a combat team of ~11) from his join map on, he'll hit around Level 20/8 for Murdock's map; most units vary between that and 20/10, with a few obvious exceptions. This was calculated for NM, but I don't believe HM changes much. Obviously this is an abstract ideal; a lot of things can change it in practice (especially completing maps extra fast and leaving a bunch of unharmed enemies) but gives an idea of what's possible depending on different levels of investment.)

oh, what site is that? That sounds like a neat resource.

That does show that we don’t need to give too much favoritism to Rei to reach that level which is good.

Experience distribution is a big variable though. You might choose to give less exp to units who are able to do more with less because they don’t need it. Those units are good because they let you give more to units who do need more like Rei.

I also find that it’s often more beneficial to make the units you’re relying on the most as strong as possible while only using weaker units as back up for them without investing more than you need to. that’s not really a point, just a separate thought. In this case if you want to invest in Rei, then he could be one of the units that you do distribute more exp into to make him more reliable.

On 11/6/2023 at 7:40 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Axes aren't bad in FE6, and I bring them up to observe that even in optimum conditions they barely outperform Nosferatu for hit. If you make the conditions less favourable to axes, such as against other weapons, or trying to attack from 2 range, they just plain start losing.

Geese's support situation is dire (59 turns to C with Echidna is his best), and Garret is little better (joins even later, need to save a Lilina support for him and even then it's significantly slower than Lugh/Raigh). Both fall behind Raigh for hit pretty quickly even against lance users (especially on Normal Mode for Garret, though if you want to argue we just don't use Garret on Normal that's fair).

ah, the support really helps out, huh? Yeah fair enough. I think Axe users can be underrated by some people because they can actually be pretty good against Lance enemies, but they can have issues with other types of enemies, that Rei would probably perform better against.

On 11/6/2023 at 7:40 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

I know this is an aside to your discussion with Jotari, but for what it's worth I definitely wouldn't say they have the same classes, in that in these threads I've usually only had to consider a Hoshido class or a Nohr class, but not both. Hero, Dark Mage, Valkyrie, Wyvern, Berserker, Armour, and Cavalier are Nohr; Swordmaster, Mage, Pegasus Knight are Hoshido. Thief is I think the only class we've talked about where I've seriously considered one from each side (and even then, the Nohr thief uses a bow and the Hoshido ones uses shuriken so they feel very different, if both most likely thieves because they share locktouch. Fighter is the other one which arguably has a representative on both sides, and those two are at least somewhat similar, though one emphasizes offence and one defence... you could argue that Fighter (the Nohr class) is just an unpromoted Berserker, actually, since it doesn't promote to Warrior.

Ah fair enough. I’ve never played Fates, I’ve noticed the Hosidians have equivalent weapon types that just go by different names and saw a few classes that seem like they’d fill the same role, but I didn’t  know if they’re the same or different.

Well, theoretically if a new Fire emblem game came out that has a different setting with different themes and styles, where the classes where exactly the same as classes from other games gameplay wise but had different names and appearances, I’d say they could be considered as the same class for gameplay discussions, but that’s apparently not the case with Fates. It sound interesting actually, I’d like to try it some day but don’t have a 3ds.

[Jotari]

32 minutes ago, Whisky said:

How so? I have a hard time seeing Dark Mages in the DS games as anything other than Mages cosplaying as Dark Mages.

I don’t actually care if you include them, they just seem weird to me because they just seem like regular mages. Gameplay wise I don’t even see any difference between them other than which characters can reclass into them.

Mages cosplaying as Dark Mages are Dark Mages. Just like Knights cosplaying as Paladins are actually Paladins.

[Cysx]

3 hours ago, Whisky said:

Yeah that’s fair. I’m curious what the Hit rates would be, I don’t think of Rei as being a very speedy or dodging unit but the support would help, and like you said, the combination of the high Hit and Avoid would make him unlikely to die.

It's not really formatted, but I use this when I want to know FE6 HM stats in general :

Raigh should have around 40 natural Avo, + 15 from supports, + 20 from Forests, for a total of 75. Wyverns have between 84 and 111 Hit, meaning at worst he has to face ~36 displayed, or 26 true, and a rough average of ~25 displayed, or ~13 true, unless speed screwed, which can happen.
Beyond that, targets that cannot hit you are great for lifesteal builds(in general), since they serve as guaranteed HP refills. It's not all that relevant here, but it can cover for a couple very bad rolls in a row.

It's pretty normal to bring up wyvernland when discussing FE6, but really Lugh isn't particularly less effective at dealing with that situation, since he'll usually be around 15 Avo higher. It's mostly the swiss knife aspect of Nosferatanking that really makes it shine imo, once it's online.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Cysx

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Cysx said:

It's not really formatted, but I use this when I want to know FE6 HM stats in general :

Raigh should have around 40 natural Avo, + 15 from supports, + 20 from Forests, for a total of 75. Wyverns have between 84 and 111 Hit, meaning at worst he has to face ~36 displayed, or 26 true, and a rough average of ~25 displayed, or ~13 true, unless speed screwed, which can happen.
Beyond that, targets that cannot hit you are great for lifesteal builds(in general), since they serve as guaranteed HP refills. It's not all that relevant here, but it can cover for a couple very bad rolls in a row.

It's pretty normal to bring up wyvernland when discussing FE6, but really Lugh isn't particularly less effective at dealing with that situation, since he'll usually be around 15 Avo higher. It's mostly the swiss knife aspect of Nosferatanking that really makes it shine imo, once it's online.

If he's getting+15 avoid from a support, what's to stop the wyverns going after his support partner instead? Well I guess probably Raigh's Defense, to answer my own question. I think enemies prioritize damage over accuracy in Binding Blade.

[Whisky]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Mages cosplaying as Dark Mages are Dark Mages. Just like Knights cosplaying as Paladins are actually Paladins.

I disagree. If the next Fire Emblem game has a class called Paladin and looks like what you’d expect a Paladin to look like but gameplay wise plays like a General with low Move and high Def, I’d say it fits more in the Armor Knight class line than the Cavalier/Paladin line.

6 hours ago, Cysx said:

It's not really formatted, but I use this when I want to know FE6 HM stats in general :

Raigh should have around 40 natural Avo, + 15 from supports, + 20 from Forests, for a total of 75. Wyverns have between 84 and 111 Hit, meaning at worst he has to face ~36 displayed, or 26 true, and a rough average of ~25 displayed, or ~13 true, unless speed screwed, which can happen.
Beyond that, targets that cannot hit you are great for lifesteal builds(in general), since they serve as guaranteed HP refills. It's not all that relevant here, but it can cover for a couple very bad rolls in a row.

It's pretty normal to bring up wyvernland when discussing FE6, but really Lugh isn't particularly less effective at dealing with that situation, since he'll usually be around 15 Avo higher. It's mostly the swiss knife aspect of Nosferatanking that really makes it shine imo, once it's online.

Not gonna lie, I’m kinda scared of facing 25-35 displayed hit. It’s not uncommon to get hit by those numbers when you’re getting attacked by multiple enemies, but that’s what the life drain is for I guess.

I feel like Nos tanking wouldn’t work well against speedy enemies like Mercs and Heroes but would probably work well against Archers and Fighters?

30 minutes ago, Jotari said:

If he's getting+15 avoid from a support, what's to stop the wyverns going after his support partner instead? Well I guess probably Raigh's Defense, to answer my own question. I think enemies prioritize damage over accuracy in Binding Blade.

His support partner is getting the +15 Avoid too, and in Lugh’s case would likely have more Avoid and also be pretty effective at taking down Wyverns with Aircalibur. You also might be able to position Lugh outside of the Wyverns range a few spaces way from Rei

[Jotari]

44 minutes ago, Whisky said:

I disagree. If the next Fire Emblem game has a class called Paladin and looks like what you’d expect a Paladin to look like but gameplay wise plays like a General with low Move and high Def, I’d say it fits more in the Armor Knight class line than the Cavalier/Paladin line.

So would you claim that Meg in Radiant Dawn isn't an armour knight and is actually a Pegasus Rider just because of her statline?

[Whisky]

59 minutes ago, Jotari said:

So would you claim that Meg in Radiant Dawn isn't an armour knight and is actually a Pegasus Rider just because of her statline?

But she is literally an Armor Knight, with all of the mechanics of the Armor Knight class. She has low Move, she doesn’t fly on a Pegasus.

I get that we don’t agree but I don’t understand what’s so confusing about my perspective.

If Meg’s class was called Paladin but she still functioned as an Armor Knight then I’d say she still counts as an Armor Knight, and that the name is weird and not consistent with the Paladin class in other FE games.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Whisky said:

But she is literally an Armor Knight, with all of the mechanics of the Armor Knight class. She has low Move, she doesn’t fly on a Pegasus.

I get that we don’t agree but I don’t understand what’s so confusing about my perspective.

If Meg’s class was called Paladin but she still functioned as an Armor Knight then I’d say she still counts as an Armor Knight, and that the name is weird and not consistent with the Paladin class in other FE games.

And the DS Dark Mages are literally Dark Mages with all the mechanics of a dark mage (infantry, magic focus and magic use).

[Whisky]

On 11/9/2023 at 8:55 PM, Jotari said:

And the DS Dark Mages are literally Dark Mages with all the mechanics of a dark mage (infantry, magic focus and magic use).

I just see using Dark Magic as an integral part of being a Dark Mage. Even lore wise, it seems pretty important based on the dialogue from characters like Canas and Teodor. The fact that Hugh doesn’t use Dark Magic is a part of his character. If Shaman and Druids just used Anima magic like regular mages, none of these dialogues would make sense.

Gameplay wise, The use of Dark Magic is THE main distinction between Shaman and Mages in the GBA games. Gameplay wise they’d pretty much just be the same class otherwise.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Whisky

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, Whisky said:

I just see using Dark Magic as an integral part of being a Dark Mage. Even lore wise, it seems pretty important based on the dialogue from characters like Canas and Teodor. The fact that Hugh doesn’t use Dark Magic is a part of his character. If Shaman and Druids just used Anima magic like regular mages, none of these dialogues would make sense.

Gameplay wise, The use of Dark Magic is THE main distinction between Shaman and Mages in the GBA games. Gameplay wise they’d pretty much just be the same class otherwise.

Well that just circles back to whether Lehran or Athos are dark mages just because they can use dark magic? I think the answer is obviously no. Because otherwise you're not actually evaluating classes, just a weapon type. And, again, you're willing to make exception for Three Houses and shift the goalposts to having dark magic related skills since everyone has Dark Magic in that game, but you're not willing to shift the Goal Posts in the opposite direction for the DS where dedicated Dark Magic doesn't exist as a gameplay mechanic, even though we have units called Dark Mages using visual dark magic.

[Whisky]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well that just circles back to whether Lehran or Athos are dark mages just because they can use dark magic? I think the answer is obviously no. Because otherwise you're not actually evaluating classes, just a weapon type. And, again, you're willing to make exception for Three Houses and shift the goalposts to having dark magic related skills since everyone has Dark Magic in that game, but you're not willing to shift the Goal Posts in the opposite direction for the DS where dedicated Dark Magic doesn't exist as a gameplay mechanic, even though we have units called Dark Mages using visual dark magic.

Athos is a different class though. The games other than 3H had clear and specific class lines. Shaman promotes into Druid and does not promote into ArchSage, or Dark Druid for that matter.

In 3H, there aren’t specific class lines or promotions. The only ‘classlines’ in that game are whatever makes logical sense of progression, and I believe Dark Knight is a logical progression from Dark Bishop.

it’s not moving the goal post, 3H has completely different mechanics, any class can use any weapon, but each class still has certain weapon types that they’re more focused on than others, and some classes are more focused on certain weapon types than other classes, like Dark Knight being more focused on Dark Magic than most other magic classes despite any magic class being able to use Dark Magic.

Also, what do you mean they “use visual dark magic”? It’s regular anima magic, it looks the same as the magic that regular mages use doesn’t it?

Edited November 11, 2023 by Whisky

[Jotari]

34 minutes ago, Whisky said:

Athos is a different class though. The games other than 3H had clear and specific class lines. Shaman promotes into Druid and does not promote into ArchSage, or Dark Druid for that matter.

So? Still uses Dark Magic, which is the only criteria you seem to think important. If Dark Knights can be a logical progression of Dark Bishop even though Dark Mage->Dark Bishop is the only literal class progression in Three Houses and Dark Knight isn't a part of that, then why not say Arch Sage, as master of all the magic types is a logcial progression to Druid that manifests itself as an exclusive class for Athos? He is pretty famous for one shotting the fire dragon with Luna.

34 minutes ago, Whisky said:

it’s not moving the goal post, 3H has completely different mechanics, any class can use any weapon, but each class still has certain weapon types that they’re more focused on than others, and some classes are more focused on certain weapon types than other classes, like Dark Knight being more focused on Dark Magic than most other magic classes despite any magic class being able to use Dark Magic.

And the DS games have completely different mechanics by not having Dark Magic as an independent weapon type at all.

34 minutes ago, Whisky said:

Also, what do you mean they “use visual dark magic”? It’s regular anima magic, it looks the same as the magic that regular mages use doesn’t it?

Well what does regular anima magic look like? I would describe Imhullu, Swarm and Glower as all looking very much like traditional Dark Magic. Glower even has the traditional Luna effect.

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I would describe Imhullu, Swarm and Glower as all looking very much like traditional Dark Magic. Glower even has the traditional Luna effect.

Same. Granted, they're enemy exclusive, but still.

[Whisky]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

So? Still uses Dark Magic, which is the only criteria you seem to think important. If Dark Knights can be a logical progression of Dark Bishop even though Dark Mage->Dark Bishop is the only literal class progression in Three Houses and Dark Knight isn't a part of that, then why not say Arch Sage, as master of all the magic types is a logcial progression to Druid that manifests itself as an exclusive class for Athos? He is pretty famous for one shotting the fire dragon with Luna.

What do you mean “why not say Arch Sage is a logical progression of Druid”? It’s literally not. Shaman to Druid is a class line in the GBA games. as Is Dark Mage to Sorcerer in the DS games. In 3H, you can actually promote your units through the classes of Dark Mage - Dark Bishop - Dark Knight, and it makes sense to do so. Dark Knight acts as the natural upgrade to Dark Bishop. 

If you say that Dark Knight is too different to you and feels more like switching classes rather than ‘promoting’ then fair enough, but why are you acting like my perspective doesn’t make any sense? Surely you can see why I would consider a class that you can basically ‘promote’ into as an upgrade as being part of the class line, over classes that aren’t connected at all like the Athos exclusive Arch Sage class that cannot promote from Druid.

I have never claimed that using Dark Magic is the only criteria that matters. I said that using Dark Magic is the key distinction between Mages and Shaman in the GBA games. You’d agree with that wouldn’t you? Gameplay wise that’s more or less the only difference for the most part. And wouldn’t you also agree that Canas, Teodor, and Niime and Hugh all make it pretty clear that using Dark Magic is an important part of their lore?

Various FE games are different. Not all FE games even have the same classes, and in some games the same classes might be very different. Dark Mages in SD might be very different than Shaman in the GBA games, and Dark Mages and Dark Bishops in 3H could be quite different from either of them. 

Dark Mage to Dark Bishop in 3H is indeed the only literal class progression in 3H, but if we’re going to be strict about that, then no other classes in 3H can be considered class lines either. 

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

And the DS games have completely different mechanics by not having Dark Magic as an independent weapon type at all.

Well what does regular anima magic look like? I would describe Imhullu, Swarm and Glower as all looking very much like traditional Dark Magic. Glower even has the traditional Luna effect.

If you know more about SD than me then by all means enlighten me. I don’t know what Glower is, I don’t think I’ve heard of that before. Imhullu is exclusive to Gharnef. Dark Mages can’t even use it. Maybe they technically could if they obtained it, but they never do. In the game it’s impossible to ever have a playable Dark Mage use it. They instead use regular anima magic, and you know what that is and what it looks like, elemental magic, Fire, Thunder, Blizzard, etc. Swarm is that spell Gotoh comes with right? Is it Dark Magic?

[Jotari]

39 minutes ago, Whisky said:

What do you mean “why not say Arch Sage is a logical progression of Druid”? It’s literally not. Shaman to Druid is a class line in the GBA games. as Is Dark Mage to Sorcerer in the DS games. In 3H, you can actually promote your units through the classes of Dark Mage - Dark Bishop - Dark Knight, and it makes sense to do so. Dark Knight acts as the natural upgrade to Dark Bishop. 

If you say that Dark Knight is too different to you and feels more like switching classes rather than ‘promoting’ then fair enough, but why are you acting like my perspective doesn’t make any sense? Surely you can see why I would consider a class that you can basically ‘promote’ into as an upgrade as being part of the class line, over classes that aren’t connected at all like the Athos exclusive Arch Sage class that cannot promote from Druid.

Because I do find it a pretty baseless connection. To switch gears, Wyvern Rider is a pretty standard option after Brigand. They both uses Axes, Death Blow is one of the best skills in the game for physical units and, especially for males, there is no intermediate flying class. So if you're going Wyvern Lord in the end you are absolutely moving through Brigand. Fighter->Brigand->Wyvern Rider->Wyvern Lord is a very natural class progression, I'd say even more natural than Dark Mage->Dark Bishop->Dark Knight, since you're actually better off going mage instead of Dark Mage to get Fiendish Blow and Dark Bishop requires two Dark Seals and offers very little. So given Fighter->Brigand->Wyvern Rider->Wyvern Lord is a very natural class progression, or to use your words "a class that you can basically 'promote' into as an upgrade as being part of a class line". Does that mean Fighter and Brigand should be considered Wyvern Knights? Or should Wyvern Knights be considered Fighters? I would say obviously not, yet it's the same logic you're using to group Dark Knight with Dark Mage.

39 minutes ago, Whisky said:

I have never claimed that using Dark Magic is the only criteria that matters. I said that using Dark Magic is the key distinction between Mages and Shaman in the GBA games. You’d agree with that wouldn’t you? Gameplay wise that’s more or less the only difference for the most part. And wouldn’t you also agree that Canas, Teodor, and Niime and Hugh all make it pretty clear that using Dark Magic is an important part of their lore?

What criteria does matter then? If you're talking about the lore, then Three Houses is rearing its head again, because any unit can be reclassed into Dark mage without any lore based connection to dark magic. And if Three Houses is too bizarre so it doesn't count, the same can be said for Awakening and Fates. Dark Mage Benny is possible, but he's still in the class Dark Mage even if he doesn't talk about his soul being eaten or anything. And I think even focusing just on GBA dark mages this is inconsistent, as I don't think Raigh or Sophia, and certainly never Ewan talk about the actual effects of Dark Magic.

39 minutes ago, Whisky said:

Dark Mage to Dark Bishop in 3H is indeed the only literal class progression in 3H, but if we’re going to be strict about that, then no other classes in 3H can be considered class lines either.

Now that I think on it, there actually are some others. You can't get Trickster without having been a thief and I think you need something similar for War Monk. But my point wasn't to be strict about it, my point was that if the game actually does show a strict class progression and one class is discounted from it, then that's a pretty indication the game doesn't consider it part of the same line.

39 minutes ago, Whisky said:

If you know more about SD than me then by all means enlighten me. I don’t know what Glower is, I don’t think I’ve heard of that before.

Glower is in New Mystery, used by end game Sorcerers. It ignores resistance and has 10might making it a more powerful version of Luna. Visually it looks like this.

 

It is the replacement to Old Mystery's Dullahan spell, which throughout the series is more commonly known as Hel, which drops the enemies HP to 1. I think on a conceptual and lore level these spells are very much Dark Magic even if the game they are in does not have it as a dedicated mechanic. Similarly to how I'd say the Book of Naga in Awakening is light magic even though there isn't a dedicated mechanic for light magic in that game. In fact, I'd even go as far as to say the existence of these spells is the major reason we got Dark Mages and Sorcerers in Shadow Dragon at all, so the enemies using clearly more dark magic weren't all stuck being Bishops and Sages. And that we're probably lucky to have got Etzel as a playable character at all.

39 minutes ago, Whisky said:

Swarm is that spell Gotoh comes with right? Is it Dark Magic?

Mechanically or visually? Because obviously Dark Magic doesn't exist as a mechanic.