Red Fox of Fire (Sothe) vs. Lyle Dayek (Volke)

[Florete]

Let's knife this up.

And I don't want you quitting on me this time Lyle.

[Mufasa]

I won't quit. Unlike the previous one, I'm actually certain I'm right about this. So I don't see what I have to lose.

*Is blinded in one eye by his own logic and blinded in the other by his bias.*

[Florete]

One day, Laura needed to get some medicine for the abbot. She came across the Dawn Brigade and asked for their help, and they accepted. They were retrieving it when Sothe, a member of the Brigade, appeared to help them out. Where was Volke during all this? No one knows really.

Sothe helped by killing enemies that posed a threat and weakening those who just needed to be killed off by someone else. He also opened three chests in this very building, one being Micaiah's h4x Thani magic that she used to one-shot the boss after Sothe stole his Vulnerary. Wow, Sothe is already a huge help to the team! Who's Volke again?

Then Micaiah got kidnapped! Sothe helped her out and then they had to fight their way out of the prison area. Sothe provided some awesome defense and stole a lot of Vulnerary's from the enemies. He also drew the boss in, stole the dude's Discipline scroll, and then Micaiah one-shotted the bastard. Afterwards, he continued to provide a good defense and offense, found a Coin on the ground, and escaped with everyone else.

He continued to do stuff like this for the rest of part 1. Volke is MIA.

He was having sex with Micaiah throughout part 2. He's pretty lucky getting to screw that hottie. No one knows where Volke is, or if he has any girls.

Then came part 3, and Daein went up against Crimea and the Greil Mercenaries. Sothe, with his Beastkiller that nobody else on his team could use, one-rounded pretty much every sub-human in sight, or at least severely weakened them. He also found a Brave Bow that Leonardo could use, but since Leonardo sucks, it most likely was sent to the convoy to be used later by a better bow user.

Then they were fighting on a mountain top. Sothe could either frontline because of his great dodge (Which Micaiah helped with, giving him a +15 avoid boost) or stay in the back and toss knives all day. Or maybe he even shoved some boulders down? Who knows?

More sub-humans attack. Sothe continues one-rounding with his Beastkiller that still only he can use. Not much else to say here.

Volke never showed up.

Part 4 came around. Sothe's abilities are down but not out. He's likely getting close to level 20 at this point. He's still dodging well, stealing a few staves and weapons, and finding some Coins and an Arms Scroll, all while being a decent combat unit, killing on occasion and weakening on occasion for others.

Sothe promoted. He's in the desert. His movement is slightly hindered, but not as much as other non-magic foot units and horse units. He's now stronger, faster, and has a mastery skill to make use of in helping him kill enemies. He's also finding a ton of loot buried in the sand and stealing a few more staves.

4-5 came around. Hey! Look over there! Some guy in a mask is hiding in the corner of the map. We decided to pay him 3,000 gold so we could take his weapons from him. Oh, but he wants to fight. I suppose we can let him. But didn't we send a bunch of other guys here so they could gain some massive level-ups on these sub-humans? Why do we want this new guy to fight? Oh well, let's see what he can do. He has a base crit of 43, his Stiletto bringing that number to 63. He'll normally have ~50 displayed crit. That's pretty nice. His base attack with that weapon is 38. Not bad, but not terribly great either. Now where was this guy when we needed him?

Endgame came along. Sothe is forced, so he's obviously coming. Is Volke coming? I don't think so. I'd rather take a Valkyrie/Queen/Marksman/Reaver/Sentinel/Trueblade/SilverKnight(F)/SeraphKnight/Dragonlord/Fire Archsage(F)/Laguz royal, maybe someone else I didn't mention. But there isn't much left. Yeah, Volke may have a cool class, but it isn't really one of the best. He's got a cool mastery skill, but it's activation rate is pretty low compared to others and he isn't one-rounding as often as them because he has weak weapons. I'll just take Sothe because I have to anyway, have him kill some weak enemies, support Micaiah, and get Matrona.

That's right! Volke isn't supporting anyone. So, while other potentials are almost definitely helping another unit just by being there, Volke is off by his lonesome self. It's too bad he wasn't around longer.

I hope you don't mind how I switched between past and present tenses while telling my tale. For now, I'll let you chew on this and throw some other numbers at you after your reply.

[Mufasa]

Alright, allow me to start from the beginning. The Very beginning, going all the way back to Por (I know this isn't a Por debate, but bear with me.)

-In Por, there are two units, Sothe and Volke. Both of which are of the same class, but one has on distinct advantage over the other. I'm fairly certain I don't need to tell you, that Volke's advantage is that he can premote. So, while Volke will be gaining levels above and beyond his first class, Sothe will be stuck at level 20, if you even try to train him.

-If you DO train Sothe (And God bless you if you did, you crazy bastard) The only thing's he's likely to cap are his speed and skill.

-If you train Volke in contrast, he's likely to cap speed, skill, and strength.

-After looking at the base stats, Sothe's stats are already at what his speed and skill would be if he capped them in Por. So Sothe gets no real advantage when it comes to the Por boost. (On average.)

-Volke on the other hand will get an advantage in all three of his boosts. He will cap STR, and be close to capping speed and skill.

-Thus, Volke wins in that category.

Next, let's talk about utility uses.

-In RD, Sothe has the ability to steal, open chests, open doors, and find hidden items. Let's break that down one by one.

-Hidden items. Theives have a near 100% chance of finding these hidden items. And even though Volke is not as likely to find a hidden item, he still has a high chance of doing so. Also, anyone could theoretically find a hidden item. I've had Gatrie get the Ettard for Ike before. Mind you Sothe wasn't there to get it, because he couldn't be there to get it, but anyone can do it. (On a personal note, it's happened more than once, that Sothe has not found the item when he's standing on the exact square. It might just be MY bad luck, but it doesn't help my relationship with Sothe.)

-Next, let's talk about doors. Sothe can open doors without any reprocussion. However, you can also break a door down, with only using one weapon durability. And you can do that with anyone. So while you'll need to put Sothe in front of the specific door you want him to open at a particular time, and thus have to compromise your strategy, usually it's just simpler to bash the door down. Also, there seems to be a plether of Door keys in this game, so that whenever there's a door, there's usually a door key lying around in your convoy, or in someone's pocket. So while Sothe may make opening doors a little less cumbersome, it's not enough make him an asset.

-Chests: Chests, like Doors, also have keys that go with them. Of course, there aren't enough keys to go around the whole game, but in theory he could be replaced by an item, and again, you wouldn't have to compromise your strategy for it.

Of course, there are a lot of things that could be said "in theory." Like, "in theory" I've seen a naked woman before. However, I don't think that Hentai counts as seeing a naked woman, "in actuality." So Sothe gains a point in this concept. He can open Chests that others can not. I'll give that to him.

On another chest note, It's unconfirmed, but someone said that Volke can perhaps open the Matrona chest without a key. I'm not certain if it's true, but if it is, It's worth noting.

-Stealing is something that is unique to Sothe and Heather in this game. I find that Heather tends to utilize her ability to steal more than Sothe, but this isn't about her. There's no way to really defend Volke here. I can't say that there's an item that allows people to Steal, thus making Sothe not essential here, because there isn't such an item. What I can say, is that at the point you get Volke, there isn't much to steal anyway. Anything worth stealing in the endgame, is already provided to you, so long as you kill the enemy. Which Volke can do easily.

So, I admit, Sothe wins the utility battle when it comes to this, however his biggest advantage is the fact that he could steal, and I don't think that's enough to make him better than Volke. You wouldn't say Sothe is better than Ike because Ike can't steal and Sothe can. Just like you wouldn't say that Rhys is better than Ike because he can heal. If Sothe could steal AND Heal, it'd probably be enough to make up for Volke's superiority in Battle. But he can't. So it doesn't.

Which leads me to our next area of argument. Battle.

-As we've already established, if you played Por, Volke will already have an advantage stat-wise over Sothe, even if you trained both of them.

-Looking at average stats, by level 20 Whisperer, Sothe will have capped HP, STR, SKL, and Luck. He will be close to capping Spd at 39. But in a class that is supposed to thrive upon speed, a 45% growth, is not that good. And while his STR growth is 60% his STR cap is low, thus, making his growth in that area go to waste quickly for a cap that is one of the worst in all the beorc classes.

-Looking at Volke, his average stats have him capping HP, STR, SKL, and nearly SPD, and nearly DEF. However, with the boost from Por, he will already have STR capped, and it will ensure that his SPD caps, as well as making his SKL cap more quickly. Thus, allowing other areas to gain stats. Ensuring possibly a cap in DEF, and maybe even in res. Leaving only Luck and Magic uncapped. Which isn't that terrible a fate considering how good his other caps are.

-However, with both units, it would be easy to get them to cap eveything save Magic, with simple BEXP abuse. Looking at their caps, it's clear that Volke has the better caps, only loosing out in Luck. However, with his other stat caps so high, Luck plays little factor.

-Now, we could talk about how skills will make up for Sothe's disabilities. Skills such as adept, or parity, but I could give Gareth Wrath, resolve, Paragon and Blossom, and make him a great unit, but that's the skills doing the work. Not him. Skills are a luxury that will add to a unit's power, not something that should MAKE a unit's power. You can give Adept and Parity to Volke too. And he'd still be more deadly than Sothe.

-Let's look at Baselard now. Baselard is clearly made for Volke. It increases the critical rate, which when the weapon is given to Sothe, only gives him a 15% Crit. While with Volke, he already has a base crit of 25%. Baselard will att 15%, giving Volke a 40% chance of criticalling someone. Which with his high str, and Baselard's high might, will give him more than enough power to take out tough dragons. Of course, that's only if he gets a critical, however, Sothe has only a 15% chance of getting a critical with Baselard. And with his low STR, he won't be killing much even when he does critical.

-Which leads me to Sothe's support with Micaiah. The support gives Sothe a 2 point boost in attack, and if he's standing right next to her, it gives him a 5% critical boost. That's not enough to bring him up to Volke's level however. And, that's without Volke having a support and a bond. I could have someone with a support with Volke that increases his attack, AND I could have him stand next to Bastian if they have a Bond. All these arguments are made to bring Sothe up to Volke's level of battle prowess, but that cannot make Sothe surpass Volke in battle.

-Now let's look at their potential to gain EXP. In part one, Sothe starts out already promoted, while your other units are in desperate need for EXP. The strategy I use with Sothe, is to take away his weapons, use him as a meat shield, and have him steal shit when I want him to. Which won't gain him that much EXP. BUT if you have him kill units, he will take away EXP from other members of the DB that will need it. As for Volke, he shows up, already at a high level for his teir, and he has good stats all considered, and in the chapter where there is the highest amount of enemies in the game. If you spread your endgame units out evenly, you have more than enough enemy units to go around for Volke to get a decent amount of kills in. Also, you're going to want to send Volke into the fray, because there is a hidden item "Ashera's Icon" in the middle of the map. There are plenty of enemies to go around, and it's more than possible that Volke can reach level 20 in this chapter alone, if you use him. (You payed for it. Why wouldn't you?) And there's plenty of units to go around, so he won't be stealing any EXP from other units that may need it. Unlike Sothe in part one.

So that's a win for Volke.

So, as it turns out, Sothe is better as a utility, and Volke is better as an all around fighting machine. The REAL advantage that Sothe has over Volke, is the timing of their arrivals. Sothe is invaluable in Part 1, even if he is a EXP hog on some occasions, and he will continue to steal and find hidden items and such, while his weakness in STR starts to present itself in Part 3, and becomes evident in part 4. While Volke is an all around better unit, that is great from the time he shows up, till the endgame. Volke will be good for the entire time he is around, while Sothe will slowly dwindle as time passes. Timing is the only thing that saves Sothe from damnation. But, let's take Gareth and Nasir as an example. When Nasir shows up, he presents himself as a great unit, with high resistance and Magic, and if you keep Nihil on him, he's pretty much immortal for the remainder of the game. While Gareth has great STR, and great DEF, but lousy Magic and RES. And since most of the endgame units are magic users, he will do poorly. That doesn't mean that Gareth is a bad unit Nor does it mean that Nasir is an immortal. If Gareth showed up for the earlier endgame chapters, he'd be great. None of the physical units would be able to harm them, and he'd be one shotting most of them.

SO as an overall unit, Volke is better. It's the timing that kills him. But once again, once you get Volke, he will do consistantly well, while Sothe will get worse as time passes.

Edited for spelling errors.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Lyle Dayek

[Florete]

-In Por, there are two units, Sothe and Volke. Both of which are of the same class, but one has on distinct advantage over the other. I'm fairly certain I don't need to tell you, that Volke's advantage is that he can premote. So, while Volke will be gaining levels above and beyond his first class, Sothe will be stuck at level 20, if you even try to train him.

-If you DO train Sothe (And God bless you if you did, you crazy bastard) The only thing's he's likely to cap are his speed and skill.

-If you train Volke in contrast, he's likely to cap speed, skill, and strength.

-After looking at the base stats, Sothe's stats are already at what his speed and skill would be if he capped them in Por. So Sothe gets no real advantage when it comes to the Por boost. (On average.)

-Volke on the other hand will get an advantage in all three of his boosts. He will cap STR, and be close to capping speed and skill.

-Thus, Volke wins in that category.

I hope you understand that how good they are in PoR means absolutely nothing for starters.

I hope you also realize that Sothe has the best potential transfer bonuses out of any PoR character. He can quite easily come in Radiant Dawn with capped defense (+6 boost), resistance (+6), and HP (+5), as well as 20 strength and a good deal of Luck. It might not all happen on average, but the possibility is amazing.

Volke can get a transfer, but he really isn't benefitting from it very much. He's already close to his level cap in RD and so his stats are rather close to capping anyway, the one's that will cap that is. Strength, skill, and speed. On average, speed is the only one that might not cap, but it should still be decently high enough for what he needs to do. So a transfer on him isn't really benefitting him.

Thus Sothe wins in that category. Possibly uber boosts > Likely but useless boosts.

Next, let's talk about utility uses.

-In RD, Sothe has the ability to steal, open chests, open doors, and find hidden items. Let's break that down one by one.

-Hidden items. Theives have a near 100% chance of finding these hidden items. And even though Volke is not as likely to find a hidden item, he still has a high chance of doing so. Also, anyone could theoretically find a hidden item. I've had Gatrie get the Ettard for Ike before. Mind you Sothe wasn't there to get it, because he couldn't be there to get it, but anyone can do it. (On a personal note, it's happened more than once, that Sothe has not found the item when he's standing on the exact square. It might just be MY bad luck, but it doesn't help my relationship with Sothe.)

Volke does have a decent chance of finding items, but Tibarn is much better at it. Volke has limited movement in the swamp; Tibarn doesn't. Volke has a base chance of ~36% to find an item while Tibarn has ~48%. Volke is doing much item finding with that guy around.

However, Sothe, with his class bonus, has a base chance of ~80% to find a hidden item, and that number is only going up (or down from Biorythm, but that's inconsistent). Anyone can find the items, but Sothe is all too easily the best at doing so, and he has a lot of items to find in part 1 as well. The list of part 1 items includes:

8 coins

3 Master Seals

2 Arms Scrolls

Beastfoe

Concoction

Sothe is getting almost all of those for you, or possible all of them. That's pretty damn awesome.

-Next, let's talk about doors. Sothe can open doors without any reprocussion. However, you can also break a door down, with only using one weapon durability. And you can do that with anyone. So while you'll need to put Sothe in front of the specific door you want him to open at a particular time, and thus have to compromise your strategy, usually it's just simpler to bash the door down. Also, there seems to be a plether of Door keys in this game, so that whenever there's a door, there's usually a door key lying around in your convoy, or in someone's pocket. So while Sothe may make opening doors a little less cumbersome, it's not enough make him an asset.

There aren't many doors anyway. The only ones I ever open up with him are the ones in 1-8 for the prisoners, but that's because I take the left route on 1-3. Sothe opening a door for no cost > using a weapon/key on it, even if the cost is minimal. This way that character can do something else, like fight or heal or rescue. Sothe's ability allowed them to do that, thus making Sothe more awesome.

-Chests: Chests, like Doors, also have keys that go with them. Of course, there aren't enough keys to go around the whole game, but in theory he could be replaced by an item, and again, you wouldn't have to compromise your strategy for it.

Of course, there are a lot of things that could be said "in theory." Like, "in theory" I've seen a naked woman before. However, I don't think that Hentai counts as seeing a naked woman, "in actuality." So Sothe gains a point in this concept. He can open Chests that others can not. I'll give that to him.

I'm happy you realize this. Don't forget that it's Sothe that grabs Micaiah's Thani that allows her to be a pretty good unit. This ability of his highly valuable.

On another chest note, It's unconfirmed, but someone said that Volke can perhaps open the Matrona chest without a key. I'm not certain if it's true, but if it is, It's worth noting.

It hardly matters anyway. No one will think "Crap! I need to bring Volke so I can get Matrona!" when they already have a forced unit that can get it just as easily. So it's not really worth noting at all.

-Stealing is something that is unique to Sothe and Heather in this game. I find that Heather tends to utilize her ability to steal more than Sothe, but this isn't about her. There's no way to really defend Volke here. I can't say that there's an item that allows people to Steal, thus making Sothe not essential here, because there isn't such an item. What I can say, is that at the point you get Volke, there isn't much to steal anyway. Anything worth stealing in the endgame, is already provided to you, so long as you kill the enemy. Which Volke can do easily.

There are lots for Sothe to steal, though. He steals a Master Seal, and combined with the 3 master Seals he found in the ground, Sothe alone grabs all of the free Master Seals in the game. He just gave the rest of your team 400 free experience. That's awesome.

He also steals Discipline, a very useful skill. It's great for getting Archsages multiple weapon levels up fast, as well as Micaiah's Staff level and someone like Jill or Meg who get extra weapons on promotion.

There is also a shitload of Vulneraries in part 1 for him to steal as well as a few weapons. His ability to steal in the early game more than makes up for there being nothing to steal in endgame.

So, I admit, Sothe wins the utility battle when it comes to this, however his biggest advantage is the fact that he could steal, and I don't think that's enough to make him better than Volke. You wouldn't say Sothe is better than Ike because Ike can't steal and Sothe can. Just like you wouldn't say that Rhys is better than Ike because he can heal. If Sothe could steal AND Heal, it'd probably be enough to make up for Volke's superiority in Battle. But he can't. So it doesn't.

Sothe's utility alone > Volke's unavailability. If you really want to delve into other characters, Ike is among the best fighters in the game and has a lot of availability. Rhys is a good healer and has availability. But none of that matters anyway. Sothe doesn't need to heal to be better than Volke, but he actually does in a way with all the vulneraries I just mentioned he's stealing.

-As we've already established, if you played Por, Volke will already have an advantage stat-wise over Sothe, even if you trained both of them.

Perhaps, by the time he shows up. Big deal, he's only there for the end of the game.

-Looking at average stats, by level 20 Whisperer, Sothe will have capped HP, STR, SKL, and Luck. He will be close to capping Spd at 39. But in a class that is supposed to thrive upon speed, a 45% growth, is not that good. And while his STR growth is 60% his STR cap is low, thus, making his growth in that area go to waste quickly for a cap that is one of the worst in all the beorc classes.

It's a good thing Sothe is pretty great for all the time before he reaches the cap, then isn't it? 39 speed is still enough to double everything in the endgame anyway.

-Looking at Volke, his average stats have him capping HP, STR, SKL, and nearly SPD, and nearly DEF. However, with the boost from Por, he will already have STR capped, and it will ensure that his SPD caps, as well as making his SKL cap more quickly. Thus, allowing other areas to gain stats. Ensuring possibly a cap in DEF, and maybe even in res. Leaving only Luck and Magic uncapped. Which isn't that terrible a fate considering how good his other caps are.

Ensuring what? Are you giving him BEXP? If you are, then I can say Sothe makes better use of it because he caps stats faster. Capping stats doesn't make the other growths go up, it just means you won't get the capped stats and get something else instead. Volke won't cap Resistance ever without some abuse, and he'll only get defense if you're lucky.

-However, with both units, it would be easy to get them to cap eveything save Magic, with simple BEXP abuse. Looking at their caps, it's clear that Volke has the better caps, only loosing out in Luck. However, with his other stat caps so high, Luck plays little factor.

I beg to differ. Sothe makes much better use of BEXP and at an earlier level, and can get uber transfers, boosting his stats even higher. Volke isn't capping luck or resistance naturally, and only capping defense if you're lucky. Sothe is much more likely to reach those caps.

-Now, we could talk about how skills will make up for Sothe's disabilities. Skills such as adept, or parity, but I could give Gareth Wrath, resolve, Paragon and Blossom, and make him a great unit, but that's the skills doing the work. Not him. Skills are a luxury that will add to a unit's power, not something that should MAKE a unit's power. You can give Adept and Parity to Volke too. And he'd still be more deadly than Sothe.

So why did you even mention it? Fact is, Sothe has more time to use skills. When you get the first Paragon, Sothe is one of only three units able to equip it, the others being Zihark and Volug, so Sothe has a decent chance of getting that. He also has an innate Guard that works perfectly with his auto A support with Micaiah, allowing him to protect her all the better. Volke has Stillness, a skill that's rather useless on him.

-Let's look at Baselard now. Baselard is clearly made for Volke. It increases the critical rate, which when the weapon is given to Sothe, only gives him a 15% Crit. While with Volke, he already has a base crit of 25%. Baselard will att 15%, giving Volke a 40% chance of criticalling someone. Which with his high str, and Baselard's high might, will give him more than enough power to take out tough dragons. Of course, that's only if he gets a critical, however, Sothe has only a 15% chance of getting a critical with Baselard. And with his low STR, he won't be killing much even when he does critical.

High strength? He can only deal 4 more damage than Sothe per hit. That isn't very much, and it's still less than most everyone else on your team. Sothe may not be killing much here either, but so what? He was killing enemies for 3 parts before this, so who cares who's the better of two mediocre units at the end of the game?

-Which leads me to Sothe's support with Micaiah. The support gives Sothe a 2 point boost in attack, and if he's standing right next to her, it gives him a 5% critical boost. That's not enough to bring him up to Volke's level however. And, that's without Volke having a support and a bond. I could have someone with a support with Volke that increases his attack, AND I could have him stand next to Bastian if they have a Bond. All these arguments are made to bring Sothe up to Volke's level of battle prowess, but that cannot make Sothe surpass Volke in battle.

It sure as hell closes the gap. Bastian isn't likely to be taken to endgame and Volke isn't likely to get a good support until the very final chapters. Sothe has been supporting Micaiah for the entire game. His presence alone has been helping the co-main character for the entire game. That is good.

-Now let's look at their potential to gain EXP. In part one, Sothe starts out already promoted, while your other units are in desperate need for EXP. The strategy I use with Sothe, is to take away his weapons, use him as a meat shield, and have him steal shit when I want him to. Which won't gain him that much EXP. BUT if you have him kill units, he will take away EXP from other members of the DB that will need it.

I use a similar strategy, but he fights when he needs to. Take away experience? That's a terrible argument. Nolan just killed a guy. Oops, Edward/Micaiah/Leonardo/Ilyana/etc. didn't get that kill, so Nolan just took away experience from the rest of your team. Not needing experience as much > needing experience.

As for Volke, he shows up, already at a high level for his teir, and he has good stats all considered, and in the chapter where there is the highest amount of enemies in the game. If you spread your endgame units out evenly, you have more than enough enemy units to go around for Volke to get a decent amount of kills in. Also, you're going to want to send Volke into the fray, because there is a hidden item "Ashera's Icon" in the middle of the map. There are plenty of enemies to go around, and it's more than possible that Volke can reach level 20 in this chapter alone, if you use him. (You payed for it. Why wouldn't you?) And there's plenty of units to go around, so he won't be stealing any EXP from other units that may need it. Unlike Sothe in part one.

Every time Volke gets a kill he stole experience from another unit that could've gotten that kill, so now Volke is stealing experience! Lolright. And as I already mentioned, Tibarn is a hell of a lot better at finding the hidden items than Volke is. Like I also mentioned in my first post, this is the chapter you send some of your lower leveled units to gain some massive levelling. Volke taking part is a big no-no.

So that's a win for Volke.

Where? I don't see it.

So, as it turns out, Sothe is better as a utility, and Volke is better as an all around fighting machine. The REAL advantage that Sothe has over Volke, is the timing of their arrivals.

And that's a pretty damn big advantage when Volke is only around for the end of the game.

Sothe is invaluable in Part 1, even if he is a EXP hog on some occasions, and he will continue to steal and find hidden items and such, while his weakness in STR starts to present itself in Part 3, and becomes evident in part 4.

He's a great unit in the hardest part of the game...I'm not seeing where he's bad. He's a bit worse in part 3 but still at least on par with the rest of your team. He's not as good in part 4, but still decent, and it doesn't matter nearly as much here anyway when you have third tier units and laguz royals.

While Volke is an all around better unit, that is great from the time he shows up, till the endgame. Volke will be good for the entire time he is around, while Sothe will slowly dwindle as time passes. Timing is the only thing that saves Sothe from damnation.

For 5 maps, Volke is a better unit, and hardly so. Timing is what makes Sothe a great unit while making Volke pretty much useless.

But, let's take Gareth and Nasir as an example. When Nasir shows up, he presents himself as a great unit, with high resistance and Magic, and if you keep Nihil on him, he's pretty much immortal for the remainder of the game. While Gareth has great STR, and great DEF, but lousy Magic and RES. And since most of the endgame units are magic users, he will do poorly. That doesn't mean that Gareth is a bad unit Nor does it mean that Nasir is an immortal. If Gareth showed up for the earlier endgame chapters, he'd be great. None of the physical units would be able to harm them, and he'd be one shotting most of them.

Completely irrelevant. Gareth is a terrible unit anyway.

SO as an overall unit, Volke is better. It's the timing that kills him. But once again, once you get Volke, he will do consistantly well, while Sothe will get worse as time passes.

For how many maps? 5? Maps you're forced to take Sothe to so you aren't likely to take Volke anyway? While Sothe is still helping someone (Micaiah) and Volke isn't doing anything great? How is Volke better?

Sothe being amazing for the hardest part of the game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Volke being an average unit for the easiest maps in the game. I don't even have to mention how Sothe does after part 1, his involvement there is alone making him an overall better unit.

[Mufasa]

I hope you understand that how good they are in PoR means absolutely nothing for starters.

I hope you also realize that Sothe has the best potential transfer bonuses out of any PoR character. He can quite easily come in Radiant Dawn with capped defense (+6 boost), resistance (+6), and HP (+5), as well as 20 strength and a good deal of Luck. It might not all happen on average, but the possibility is amazing.

Volke can get a transfer, but he really isn't benefitting from it very much. He's already close to his level cap in RD and so his stats are rather close to capping anyway, the one's that will cap that is. Strength, skill, and speed. On average, speed is the only one that might not cap, but it should still be decently high enough for what he needs to do. So a transfer on him isn't really benefitting him.

Thus Sothe wins in that category. Possibly uber boosts > Likely but useless boosts.

Of course Sothe has the greatest POTENTIAL for the boost. Let's not forget that I used a hacking device to GET Sothe to cap everything in Por. However, the likelyhood of him GETTING that boost without a hacking device is slim to none. If you even USE Sothe in Por. People are far more likely to use Sothe than Volke in Por, even knowing about the advantages. Looking at the average stats of Por, there's nearly no way for Sothe to cap anything but speed and skill, which would already be at that level in RD when he first shows up.

At least with Volke, his greatest boost may not be as good as Sothe's greatest boost, but the likelyhood of Sothe getting that full omega boost without hacking is 1000 to 1.

AND if the guy who actually HAS that full boost for Sothe says that Sothe isn't as good as Volke, even after all that, it must mean something.

Volke does have a decent chance of finding items, but Tibarn is much better at it. Volke has limited movement in the swamp; Tibarn doesn't. Volke has a base chance of ~36% to find an item while Tibarn has ~48%. Volke is doing much item finding with that guy around.

Well, Volke still has more uses than that. He has the ability to kill the blood crazed Feral one coming towards him. Whereas with Sothe, he's lucky if he manages to get close to an enemy without any help in the desert chapter. And even if he does, his weapons are so poor, and his attack is 24 at best, that he won't be killing anyone other than mages anyway. Of which are in short supply on the enemy side in this chapter. At the very least, they'll mostly be gone by the time that he reaches them.

However, Sothe, with his class bonus, has a base chance of ~80% to find a hidden item, and that number is only going up (or down from Biorythm, but that's inconsistent). Anyone can find the items, but Sothe is all too easily the best at doing so, and he has a lot of items to find in part 1 as well. The list of part 1 items includes:

8 coins

3 Master Seals

2 Arms Scrolls

Beastfoe

Concoction

Sothe is getting almost all of those for you, or possible all of them. That's pretty damn awesome.

Alright, Sothe works well as a good utility. He finds items and steals them. However, ANYONE can find an item, Sothe is just more likely to find them. If the best thing you can say about a unit is that he can find hidden items, which ANY unit can technically do, then that means that unit has so few redeeming qualities that it needs to be mentioned that he can do, that which any other unit can. But I've already admitted that Sothe is useful for stealing and finding stuff. That doesn't redeem him of his faults.

There aren't many doors anyway. The only ones I ever open up with him are the ones in 1-8 for the prisoners, but that's because I take the left route on 1-3. Sothe opening a door for no cost > using a weapon/key on it, even if the cost is minimal. This way that character can do something else, like fight or heal or rescue. Sothe's ability allowed them to do that, thus making Sothe more awesome.

But that has nothing to do with Sothe. If I need laura to heal, I can have her heal, and then have someone like Nolan open the door. The fact that Sothe can do it, is not unique to him. In fact, it's a mark against him, because if you have him opening doors, that means that there isn't anything else, more useful that he could do. Like, killing a blood-crazed enemy unit.

I'm happy you realize this. Don't forget that it's Sothe that grabs Micaiah's Thani that allows her to be a pretty good unit. This ability of his highly valuable.

It hardly matters anyway. No one will think "Crap! I need to bring Volke so I can get Matrona!" when they already have a forced unit that can get it just as easily. So it's not really worth noting at all.

There are lots for Sothe to steal, though. He steals a Master Seal, and combined with the 3 master Seals he found in the ground, Sothe alone grabs all of the free Master Seals in the game. He just gave the rest of your team 400 free experience. That's awesome.

He also steals Discipline, a very useful skill. It's great for getting Archsages multiple weapon levels up fast, as well as Micaiah's Staff level and someone like Jill or Meg who get extra weapons on promotion.

There is also a shitload of Vulneraries in part 1 for him to steal as well as a few weapons. His ability to steal in the early game more than makes up for there being nothing to steal in endgame.

Sothe's utility alone > Volke's unavailability. If you really want to delve into other characters, Ike is among the best fighters in the game and has a lot of availability. Rhys is a good healer and has availability. But none of that matters anyway. Sothe doesn't need to heal to be better than Volke, but he actually does in a way with all the vulneraries I just mentioned he's stealing.

First off, when I play through that part of the game, I have leonardo go to the edge of where those two chests reside, in which there is an archer that will attack Leo, and due to the height advantage, Leo will win. Which gains him a pair of chest keys. Which allows him to acess those two chests. Which proves that Sothe himself is not essential to getting certain chests. YES he's needed to get ALL the chests, but that's one point towards him, and that's it.

Again, technically ANYONE can find the master seals in the ground. So Sothe himself only saves you 100 exp. Which, he probably takes away from you other units if you use him to attack your oppenents. In fact, he takes that away VERY quickly.

Volke has low availability. We've established that. But when you compare his usefullness in the parts where he's available, to Sothe's usefulness in the parts he's available, Volke does an all around better job. Volke will be sending many things to their graves with his high crit rate which on his own already provides a 1 in 4 chance to activate a critical, and Baselard brings it almost up to a 50% chance of critical. He'll be killing more than Sothe will in the endgame. Which, the engame isn't the only place that matters, but that's the only time Volke is available. So you can't say he's a bad unit in part one, two or three, while you CAN say that Sothe is a bad unit in parts three and four. And in fact he IS a bad unit in part 4. And perhaps in part 3 as well.

Perhaps, by the time he shows up. Big deal, he's only there for the end of the game.

It's a good thing Sothe is pretty great for all the time before he reaches the cap, then isn't it? 39 speed is still enough to double everything in the endgame anyway.

Ensuring what? Are you giving him BEXP? If you are, then I can say Sothe makes better use of it because he caps stats faster. Capping stats doesn't make the other growths go up, it just means you won't get the capped stats and get something else instead. Volke won't cap Resistance ever without some abuse, and he'll only get defense if you're lucky.

I beg to differ. Sothe makes much better use of BEXP and at an earlier level, and can get uber transfers, boosting his stats even higher. Volke isn't capping luck or resistance naturally, and only capping defense if you're lucky. Sothe is much more likely to reach those caps.

BEXP can help both of them. It can make both of them cap everything that matters. But I've already mentioned that. Volke's overall caps are still higher. And Sothe will be at a much lower level than Volke when you get him. Unless you somehow managed to get Sothe to level 13 all in that desert chapter. Which is even less likely than getting sothe to cap everything in Por.

Volke's caps>Sothe's caps. Even if you use BEXP on only Sothe, Volke is still beating him statwise even if he doesn't cap everything.

So why did you even mention it? Fact is, Sothe has more time to use skills. When you get the first Paragon, Sothe is one of only three units able to equip it, the others being Zihark and Volug, so Sothe has a decent chance of getting that. He also has an innate Guard that works perfectly with his auto A support with Micaiah, allowing him to protect her all the better. Volke has Stillness, a skill that's rather useless on him.

I dunno about others, but the only time Guard has ever activated for me, was when I attacked Micaiah with Harr in the river crossing chapter. I find Guard to be a useless skill. At the very least, I know Stillness is working. Sure it goes to waste on Volke, but who cares? You can just remove it if it's that much of a hinderance.

As for Paragon, on a personal level, I always do my best to get Jill to have a class change by the time I get paragon, so I usually give it to her. Micaiah can use Paragon as well, and since she will need to be level 20 by the end of the part, it might be good to give it to her. Sothe still has the entire rest of the game to get to level 20. So there's no rush for him to level up. Especially if you have that uber save file from Por that you keep talking about.

High strength? He can only deal 4 more damage than Sothe per hit. That isn't very much, and it's still less than most everyone else on your team. Sothe may not be killing much here either, but so what? He was killing enemies for 3 parts before this, so who cares who's the better of two mediocre units at the end of the game?

1. 4 more points gives Volke the same attack as a male trueblade. In fact, looking at Volke's caps, with the exception of magic and luck, his caps are just as good, or better than a male trueblade. He has higher defense than them, AND higher resistance. He's on par with them for HP, STR, SKL, and SPD. Whearas Sothe only has 28 STR, 50 HP, 38 SKL, and his defense and resistance are lower than Volke.

2. He was killing units for 2 parts before this, one part where he would be taking EXP from those who desperatley need it, and another part where he's there for three chapters, and still those other units need EXP just as much as he does.

It sure as hell closes the gap. Bastian isn't likely to be taken to endgame and Volke isn't likely to get a good support until the very final chapters. Sothe has been supporting Micaiah for the entire game. His presence alone has been helping the co-main character for the entire game. That is good.

Sothe doesn't HAVE to support Micaiah though. You can easily remove him for someone like Nolan, who would provide Micaiah with very good avoid. Which would help her a lot. Sure Sothe has the A support to start, but that would also mean that he needs to be constantly around her, and with all the hidden items, and chests that need to be opened, Micaiah will have to follow him around constantly, which is sometimes away from the enemies she needs to get EXP from.

If you ignore that however, she will be out in the open, taking out enemies, while sothe looks for coins in the grass halfway across the map.

I use a similar strategy, but he fights when he needs to. Take away experience? That's a terrible argument. Nolan just killed a guy. Oops, Edward/Micaiah/Leonardo/Ilyana/etc. didn't get that kill, so Nolan just took away experience from the rest of your team. Not needing experience as much > needing experience.

Every time Volke gets a kill he stole experience from another unit that could've gotten that kill, so now Volke is stealing experience! Lolright. And as I already mentioned, Tibarn is a hell of a lot better at finding the hidden items than Volke is. Like I also mentioned in my first post, this is the chapter you send some of your lower leveled units to gain some massive levelling. Volke taking part is a big no-no.

But since Sothe is at a higher level than the others, he will be gaining less over all experience than one of the other DB members will get. And, he has no need for experience at this early point in the game, because he can survive fine. Other members of the DB, will need it, because they can't survive more than one battle. Sometimes less. So they need the experience.

While Volke on the other hand, will be about the same level as your other units on your team, so they will all be gaining roughly about the same EXP. Plus, there are about 50+ enemies in that chapter potentially. And if you're smart, you won't put all your units that you're taking into the endgame there, as your other battles will be very difficult then. So there will be roughly 5 units that you will take to the endgame here, at most, which still grants about ten kills per person even if you count Volke in on that. So he has plenty of oppurtunity to get EXP, without taking it away from others who need it. Unlike Sothe.

Where? I don't see it.

Right here.

And that's a pretty damn big advantage when Volke is only around for the end of the game.

He's a great unit in the hardest part of the game...I'm not seeing where he's bad. He's a bit worse in part 3 but still at least on par with the rest of your team. He's not as good in part 4, but still decent, and it doesn't matter nearly as much here anyway when you have third tier units and laguz royals.

For 5 maps, Volke is a better unit, and hardly so. Timing is what makes Sothe a great unit while making Volke pretty much useless.

Completely irrelevant. Gareth is a terrible unit anyway.

For how many maps? 5? Maps you're forced to take Sothe to so you aren't likely to take Volke anyway? While Sothe is still helping someone (Micaiah) and Volke isn't doing anything great? How is Volke better?

Sothe. Good to start, but as time passes he grows worse. And worse, and will need skills and beastkiller to be effective.

Volke. Consistantly good from the moment you get him till the end.

Sothe being amazing for the hardest part of the game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Volke being an average unit for the easiest maps in the game. I don't even have to mention how Sothe does after part 1, his involvement there is alone making him an overall better unit.

When Volke joins, he will be better than Sothe. If given a choice, anyone would leave Sothe behind, and take Volke instead regardless of how well Sothe did in the beginning. Sothe is a jeigan. Unlike other jeigans, you don't have a choice to bench him after he's fulfilled his usefullness. You have to put up with him and his shitty self the entire rest of the game (Unless you want to trade him in for one of the dragons. Which I DO now.)

Volke is statistically better. Sothe has his availability, which gives him an edge, but after part one, he's unnecessary. Just because you HAVE to use him, doesn't mean he's better. In fact, it just makes him annoying IMO.

[Florete]

Of course Sothe has the greatest POTENTIAL for the boost. Let's not forget that I used a hacking device to GET Sothe to cap everything in Por. However, the likelyhood of him GETTING that boost without a hacking device is slim to none. If you even USE Sothe in Por. People are far more likely to use Sothe than Volke in Por, even knowing about the advantages. Looking at the average stats of Por, there's nearly no way for Sothe to cap anything but speed and skill, which would already be at that level in RD when he first shows up.

At least with Volke, his greatest boost may not be as good as Sothe's greatest boost, but the likelyhood of Sothe getting that full omega boost without hacking is 1000 to 1.

AND if the guy who actually HAS that full boost for Sothe says that Sothe isn't as good as Volke, even after all that, it must mean something.

The potential is still there and it's still a point for him that he can come so uber. And it really isn't as hard as you say it is, I've done it myself with minimal effort.

The one that's better in PoR makes no difference. The transfers they can get is what matters.

Well, Volke still has more uses than that. He has the ability to kill the blood crazed Feral one coming towards him. Whereas with Sothe, he's lucky if he manages to get close to an enemy without any help in the desert chapter. And even if he does, his weapons are so poor, and his attack is 24 at best, that he won't be killing anyone other than mages anyway. Of which are in short supply on the enemy side in this chapter. At the very least, they'll mostly be gone by the time that he reaches them.

Volke starts in the bottom right corner, so he isn't even reaching enemies quite as fast as everyone else. Then there's the fact that he isn't any better at fighting than anyone else and he has Stillness, meaning he won't likely see any enemy phase action. Sothe's combat ability is nothing special at this point, either, but it's not terrible. Plus, Sothe has had 2 other parts of sheer awesomeness.

Alright, Sothe works well as a good utility. He finds items and steals them. However, ANYONE can find an item, Sothe is just more likely to find them. If the best thing you can say about a unit is that he can find hidden items, which ANY unit can technically do, then that means that unit has so few redeeming qualities that it needs to be mentioned that he can do, that which any other unit can. But I've already admitted that Sothe is useful for stealing and finding stuff. That doesn't redeem him of his faults.

Sothe is the most likely to find items. Sothe needs experience the least. Sothe finding items >>>>> using someone else to find items. That is a major plus because he's the best at it and the rest of your team wants to do other things instead. It does, in fact, redeem him of his minor faults.

But that has nothing to do with Sothe. If I need laura to heal, I can have her heal, and then have someone like Nolan open the door. The fact that Sothe can do it, is not unique to him. In fact, it's a mark against him, because if you have him opening doors, that means that there isn't anything else, more useful that he could do. Like, killing a blood-crazed enemy unit.

A mark against him? What are you smoking? The fact that he can open a door at no cost and let your other units do other things is a bad thing? Sorry, but that makes no sense.

First off, when I play through that part of the game, I have leonardo go to the edge of where those two chests reside, in which there is an archer that will attack Leo, and due to the height advantage, Leo will win. Which gains him a pair of chest keys. Which allows him to acess those two chests. Which proves that Sothe himself is not essential to getting certain chests. YES he's needed to get ALL the chests, but that's one point towards him, and that's it.

Using Sothe to open a chest > using a Chest Key since that key can become money at no cost for Sothe opening the chest. Also, while Sothe is opening the chests, Leo can now be fighting enemies instead of opening chests. Everyone wins.

Again, technically ANYONE can find the master seals in the ground. So Sothe himself only saves you 100 exp. Which, he probably takes away from you other units if you use him to attack your oppenents. In fact, he takes that away VERY quickly.

Did you completely miss my argument that "stealing" experience is a terrible argument? Plus, Sothe is always the best at finding items, so he's the best at getting that extra 300 experience. Sothe getting experience by fighting isn't a bad thing anyway. It makes him stronger at the cost of someone else not getting stronger, but hey, everyone who fights does that, including Volke.

Volke has low availability. We've established that. But when you compare his usefullness in the parts where he's available, to Sothe's usefulness in the parts he's available, Volke does an all around better job. Volke will be sending many things to their graves with his high crit rate which on his own already provides a 1 in 4 chance to activate a critical, and Baselard brings it almost up to a 50% chance of critical. He'll be killing more than Sothe will in the endgame. Which, the engame isn't the only place that matters, but that's the only time Volke is available. So you can't say he's a bad unit in part one, two or three, while you CAN say that Sothe is a bad unit in parts three and four. And in fact he IS a bad unit in part 4. And perhaps in part 3 as well.

Volke does better than Sothe for 5 maps, 5 maps that are easy anyway and your other units are even better than him. A high critical chance means nothing if you aren't doing much damage, and since a lot of the enemies are generals in the first two maps, Volke isn't doing much damage.

Also, Sothe is still good in part 3. How can you he's bad? He's got a level lead over your team and still supporting Micaiah. He's decent in part 4, the part where things get easy. Being awesome for the hardest part of the game >>> being average for the easiest part of the game.

BEXP can help both of them. It can make both of them cap everything that matters. But I've already mentioned that. Volke's overall caps are still higher. And Sothe will be at a much lower level than Volke when you get him. Unless you somehow managed to get Sothe to level 13 all in that desert chapter. Which is even less likely than getting sothe to cap everything in Por.

Volke's caps>Sothe's caps. Even if you use BEXP on only Sothe, Volke is still beating him statwise even if he doesn't cap everything.

Volke won't cap luck or resistance without Battle save abuse or massive luck, you can't argue that. Also, with 3 Paragons available and Sothe being a low level, he's fairly likely to get it to grant him faster levels, something Volke can't get.

That's true, but so what? He's better for the easiest part of the game, but only hardly at that. That's not good.

I dunno about others, but the only time Guard has ever activated for me, was when I attacked Micaiah with Harr in the river crossing chapter. I find Guard to be a useless skill. At the very least, I know Stillness is working. Sure it goes to waste on Volke, but who cares? You can just remove it if it's that much of a hinderance.

If stillness goes to someone else, it isn't a point for him, it's neutral. It sucks on him anyway because he wants enemies to attack him, making it a point against him for the one chapter he has to keep it on him. At least Guard can help someone.

As for Paragon, on a personal level, I always do my best to get Jill to have a class change by the time I get paragon, so I usually give it to her. Micaiah can use Paragon as well, and since she will need to be level 20 by the end of the part, it might be good to give it to her. Sothe still has the entire rest of the game to get to level 20. So there's no rush for him to level up. Especially if you have that uber save file from Por that you keep talking about.

Jill's not classing up in time to get Paragon immediately, it's just not happening. That's 6-7 levels in 2 maps. No way. Micaiah will reach level 20 easily without Paragon, and she has 1-8 to catch up anyway if needed. And you're the one with that uber save file. :)

1. 4 more points gives Volke the same attack as a male trueblade. In fact, looking at Volke's caps, with the exception of magic and luck, his caps are just as good, or better than a male trueblade. He has higher defense than them, AND higher resistance. He's on par with them for HP, STR, SKL, and SPD. Whearas Sothe only has 28 STR, 50 HP, 38 SKL, and his defense and resistance are lower than Volke.

It's too bad Vague Katti is stronger than Baselard and Alondite has range, so the Trueblades are doing better. Defense and resistance hardly matter when you dodge everything. The lower Luck is making Volke less accurate.

2. He was killing units for 2 parts before this, one part where he would be taking EXP from those who desperatley need it, and another part where he's there for three chapters, and still those other units need EXP just as much as he does.

The "stealing experience" thing again? Will you ever learn?

Sothe doesn't HAVE to support Micaiah though. You can easily remove him for someone like Nolan, who would provide Micaiah with very good avoid. Which would help her a lot. Sure Sothe has the A support to start, but that would also mean that he needs to be constantly around her, and with all the hidden items, and chests that need to be opened, Micaiah will have to follow him around constantly, which is sometimes away from the enemies she needs to get EXP from.

If you ignore that however, she will be out in the open, taking out enemies, while sothe looks for coins in the grass halfway across the map.

An existing A support > building a new one. It helps them both. And if you really think enemies aren't near the items Sothe is getting, you need to play this game again. SothexMicaiah support is making the team stronger and it's definitely a point in his favor. +2 attack and +15 avoid right off the bat. That's nice for both of them.

But since Sothe is at a higher level than the others, he will be gaining less over all experience than one of the other DB members will get. And, he has no need for experience at this early point in the game, because he can survive fine. Other members of the DB, will need it, because they can't survive more than one battle. Sometimes less. So they need the experience.

Not needing experience as much > needing experience. It means you're already a good unit that can afford to let others get kills. This entire point you posted was in Sothe's favor more than anything. Don't forget that stealing nets him 10 experience, experience no one else could have even gotten.

While Volke on the other hand, will be about the same level as your other units on your team, so they will all be gaining roughly about the same EXP. Plus, there are about 50+ enemies in that chapter potentially. And if you're smart, you won't put all your units that you're taking into the endgame there, as your other battles will be very difficult then. So there will be roughly 5 units that you will take to the endgame here, at most, which still grants about ten kills per person even if you count Volke in on that. So he has plenty of oppurtunity to get EXP, without taking it away from others who need it. Unlike Sothe.

*facepalm*

Every time Volke kills an enemy, someone else didn't get that experience. What part of that are you missing? Every character that fights is "stealing" experience, it's not a point for or against anyone. The fact Volke needs experience can only be a point against him. There's no experience rank here, after all.

Right here

I don't see it.

Sothe. Good to start, but as time passes he grows worse. And worse, and will need skills and beastkiller to be effective.

Volke. Consistantly good from the moment you get him till the end.

It's too bad that that moment is at the end. Sothe is awesome until the end (And he's the only one that can use that Beastkiller anyway), so Sothe wins. Being good for a long time > being average for a short time.

When Volke joins, he will be better than Sothe. If given a choice, anyone would leave Sothe behind, and take Volke instead regardless of how well Sothe did in the beginning. Sothe is a jeigan. Unlike other jeigans, you don't have a choice to bench him after he's fulfilled his usefullness. You have to put up with him and his shitty self the entire rest of the game (Unless you want to trade him in for one of the dragons. Which I DO now.)

That's not a point against him at all, though. It's not like Jeigan = auto bad. Where would Seth and Titania be? He doesn't even have to be mapped at endgame! And he's not shitty either. He's supporting Micaiah and making her better, dodging everything, and one-rounding weak enemies. Not amazing, but not terrible.

About the dragons, Sothe >>>>> Gareth, Ena, and Kurth for endgame. Especially Gareth.

Volke is statistically better. Sothe has his availability, which gives him an edge, but after part one, he's unnecessary. Just because you HAVE to use him, doesn't mean he's better. In fact, it just makes him annoying IMO.

IMO, it makes it more fun, so that's a moot point. Being awesome for the hardest part of the game, great for the next part, and decent for the rest >>>>>>> being decent for the easiest part of the game.

Also, Sothe being forced doesn't make him better, but it makes Volke less useful because you already have a forced knife user. Why bring another?

[Mufasa]

The potential is still there and it's still a point for him that he can come so uber. And it really isn't as hard as you say it is, I've done it myself with minimal effort.

The one that's better in PoR makes no difference. The transfers they can get is what matters.

The potential is also there for many things. That doesn't mean it will happen. There is potential for someone to hit an enemy unit with only a 10% hit rate. That doesn't mean it will happen. The more likely senario if you even USE Sothe in Por, is that he will cap only speed and Skill, which he will already have at that point in RD, and Volke will cap str, spd, and skill, all of which he can utilize in RD.

Volke starts in the bottom right corner, so he isn't even reaching enemies quite as fast as everyone else. Then there's the fact that he isn't any better at fighting than anyone else and he has Stillness, meaning he won't likely see any enemy phase action. Sothe's combat ability is nothing special at this point, either, but it's not terrible. Plus, Sothe has had 2 other parts of sheer awesomeness.

There is a heron, that will be more than happy to give Volke an extra turn on the first turn, which will allow him to catch up with everyone else.

Even with Stillness, he will still be able to attack people himself. Which will give him more than enough exp. AND you can always put him in a place where he's all alone, thus making enemies attacking him.

Lol. Yes, awesomeness. One chapter where he will be unable to promote while others around him will have already been third teir, and he still has 22 STR at best, not being able to kill anything, and then another chapter where he can barely move and other units will have passed him, killed the enemy units, gotten the hidden items, before he even makes it to where Stefan is. And even if there are enemies around him, he still has shit str. And won't be killing them anyway.

Sothe is the most likely to find items. Sothe needs experience the least. Sothe finding items >>>>> using someone else to find items. That is a major plus because he's the best at it and the rest of your team wants to do other things instead. It does, in fact, redeem him of his minor faults.

Perhaps minor faults. But I see his crippled sword as a major fault. Perhaps that's a matter of perspective, but when it takes three turns to defeat a dragon that takes other units one turn to beat, I believe there's a severe problem.

A mark against him? What are you smoking? The fact that he can open a door at no cost and let your other units do other things is a bad thing? Sorry, but that makes no sense.

It's a mark against him, because of all the things he could be doing, the best task he can complete is opening a door. It wasn't really a serious argument.

Using Sothe to open a chest > using a Chest Key since that key can become money at no cost for Sothe opening the chest. Also, while Sothe is opening the chests, Leo can now be fighting enemies instead of opening chests. Everyone wins.

Did you completely miss my argument that "stealing" experience is a terrible argument? Plus, Sothe is always the best at finding items, so he's the best at getting that extra 300 experience. Sothe getting experience by fighting isn't a bad thing anyway. It makes him stronger at the cost of someone else not getting stronger, but hey, everyone who fights does that, including Volke.

Of course using Sothe to open chests is better than using keys. I'd be stupid to argue against that. However, it's easy to replace Sothe with keys if you have them. So it can't redeem him of other transgressions.

And perhaps I need Sothe somewhere else. I usually use him at that point as a meat shield to protect the other weaker units.

And he COULD get the items, but others can as well. That's not a thing that makes Sothe invaluable. In the chapter where Volke shows up, the other units are not as in desperate need for EXP as the DB. So he's not causing as much damage to your team as Sothe is. The DB needs more EXP than people in part 4, as the people you are using, are probably able to stand on their own already.

Volke does better than Sothe for 5 maps, 5 maps that are easy anyway and your other units are even better than him. A high critical chance means nothing if you aren't doing much damage, and since a lot of the enemies are generals in the first two maps, Volke isn't doing much damage.

Sothe is doing even less damage to those generals. Volke has a better chance of killing them than Sothe does. Also, Volke CAN kill the archers and other units there. Sothe seems to have a hard time killing anyone who isn't a bishop.

Also, I couldn't help but notice that you put "5" maps. It might just be a typo, but Volke is available for 6 maps including the one where he joins. Perhaps you didn't count that first one because Sothe isn't available then? In which case, why should the maps where Volke isn't around count? If you just take the maps that both Volke and Sothe are in, you admit yourself that Volke>Sothe for those maps.

But it could just be a typo.

Also, Sothe is still good in part 3. How can you he's bad? He's got a level lead over your team and still supporting Micaiah. He's decent in part 4, the part where things get easy. Being awesome for the hardest part of the game >>> being average for the easiest part of the game.

1. Perhaps it's because you use Sothe more in the first part, but I find that my Sothe is often only at level 3-4 for part 3. Maybe it's my fault, but if he's at a higher level for you, perhaps the DB are at a lower level, and that might be why you still think he's good. Perhaps because the rest of your team is bad.

2. He's not decent in part 4. In the first chapter he's still the same teir as he was in the beginning of the game, in the second chapter he can't kill anyone, if he can even reach anyone, and after that, he'll be over shadowed by all your other units that you get to choose, and are at a much higher level anyway.

3. Being good the entire time your around>Starting out well, then being lousy later.

Volke won't cap luck or resistance without Battle save abuse or massive luck, you can't argue that. Also, with 3 Paragons available and Sothe being a low level, he's fairly likely to get it to grant him faster levels, something Volke can't get.

That's true, but so what? He's better for the easiest part of the game, but only hardly at that. That's not good.

Even without capping Resistance, his averge RES is 29. Which is still better than Sothe's caps.

And again, skills can be applied to any unit. Giving Sothe paragon would take away adept, which is a skill that goes well with him admittedly. And though you may not be able to give Volke paragon right away, he won't need it. He's at a high enough level as is.

If stillness goes to someone else, it isn't a point for him, it's neutral. It sucks on him anyway because he wants enemies to attack him, making it a point against him for the one chapter he has to keep it on him. At least Guard can help someone.

Guard never activates for me. So it's just as useless as Stillness. At least I know that stillness is working. As I said before.

Jill's not classing up in time to get Paragon immediately, it's just not happening. That's 6-7 levels in 2 maps. No way. Micaiah will reach level 20 easily without Paragon, and she has 1-8 to catch up anyway if needed. And you're the one with that uber save file. :)

She does for me. There's no rush for Sothe to level up that quickly. He still has till part 4 to get to level 20. Even less for me with that uber save file, as he will cap everything before level 20. And still he'll suck.

It's too bad Vague Katti is stronger than Baselard and Alondite has range, so the Trueblades are doing better. Defense and resistance hardly matter when you dodge everything. The lower Luck is making Volke less accurate.

Volke has just as much chance of dodging as the trueblades. But when all else fails, he can take a couple of hits. And he has low luck, but he has higher skill than Sothe. He's still hitting well.

The "stealing experience" thing again? Will you ever learn?

He's taking experience away from people who desperatley need it. Part one is the hardest part, and thus your units will need to share the exp more than later on. Sothe does not need as much exp as other units, if he is allowed to battle freely, your enemies will be taken out by him, and your other units will not get the exp they need.

With Volke, part 4 is easier, and he won't be as damaging to your team as Sothe is to the DB.

An existing A support > building a new one. It helps them both. And if you really think enemies aren't near the items Sothe is getting, you need to play this game again. SothexMicaiah support is making the team stronger and it's definitely a point in his favor. +2 attack and +15 avoid right off the bat. That's nice for both of them.

That doesn't mean he can't easily be replaced. Sothe can be replaced. He's useful for minimal things, but when compared to the combat bonuses of Volke, there's no battle. Sothe isn't as good as Volke. Just around longer.

Not needing experience as much > needing experience. It means you're already a good unit that can afford to let others get kills. This entire point you posted was in Sothe's favor more than anything. Don't forget that stealing nets him 10 experience, experience no one else could have even gotten.

*facepalm*

Every time Volke kills an enemy, someone else didn't get that experience. What part of that are you missing? Every character that fights is "stealing" experience, it's not a point for or against anyone. The fact Volke needs experience can only be a point against him. There's no experience rank here, after all.

Perhaps 'stealing' isn't the appropriate word. But I've already stated that the EXP is more precious in Part one, then in the one chapter where you get Volke.

If sothe is allowed to attack enemies, he will take out enemies, and thus not allow for other DB units to get that EXP. Volke joins in a chapter where EXP is in abundance, and the EXP will not be as scarce, nor as precious.

I don't see it.

It's too bad that that moment is at the end. Sothe is awesome until the end (And he's the only one that can use that Beastkiller anyway), so Sothe wins. Being good for a long time > being average for a short time.

That's not a point against him at all, though. It's not like Jeigan = auto bad. Where would Seth and Titania be? He doesn't even have to be mapped at endgame! And he's not shitty either. He's supporting Micaiah and making her better, dodging everything, and one-rounding weak enemies. Not amazing, but not terrible.

About the dragons, Sothe >>>>> Gareth, Ena, and Kurth for endgame. Especially Gareth.

IMO, it makes it more fun, so that's a moot point. Being awesome for the hardest part of the game, great for the next part, and decent for the rest >>>>>>> being decent for the easiest part of the game.

Sothe dwindles over time. He goes from being very useful, to decent, to lousy. Volke stays perfectly fine throughout the game. Starting from Part 4, Sothe will not be able to kill anything on his own. Part three he will overshadowed by other members of the DB, and part one he's very useful, but that's it.

Also, Sothe being forced doesn't make him better, but it makes Volke less useful because you already have a forced knife user. Why bring another?

Why? Because Sothe SUCKS. I'd rather bring Volke, and bench Sothe for Nasir, or Gareth, or Ena, or anyone. The fact that he's forced upon me is what annoys me the most.

For the time that they are both available, Sothe is clearly inferior to Volke. In part one, many of Sothe's assests can be replaced by other units, or items. He makes things easier, but he's not a god-sent. The only thing he has above Volke is that he can steal. That's it. Battle-wise Volke is 100times better than Sothe. While Sothe is only 10 times better in the utility department.

I think that's it right? That's three.

[Florete]

I'm dying to counter those points, but it's now voting time. I'd prefer if the judges would vote in this topic, but it's ok if you do it in the voting topic instead.

[Mufasa]

I'm dying to counter those points, but it's now voting time. I'd prefer if the judges would vote in this topic, but it's ok if you do it in the voting topic instead.

Lol. I'd hate to be the guy to judge this.

And no matter the outcome Fox, we're still friends. Even if you're mind is somehow demented into thinking Sothe is better than Volke. XD

[Defeatist Elitist]

I'm not a real judge, but I'll throw in my fake point for Fox. Don't worry though Lyle, it was an uphill battle. :P Sothe really is better. :D Plus Fox did a better job at actually debating, which is what matters, but hey. :D

Edited December 15, 2008 by ZXValaRevan

[CGV]

And no matter the outcome Fox, we're still friends. Even if you're mind is somehow demented into thinking Sothe is better than Volke. XD

So if the judges agree that Sothe does turn out better than Volke, will she still be demented? Or will you be for thinking Volke > Sothe?

*votes Sothe... if it even counts*

[Mekkah]

my vote goes to Fox.

"exp hogging" was countered well

the data transfers part was handled well

Sothe's availability and utility were handled well, and used to override Volke's combat win during the endgame, which was all what he seemed to have

[Tino]

I agree with Mekkah, and I also want to add that I like how Fox took average performance into account (although possibly unintentional). You know, that "Sothe is great for three parts, so who cares about the combat utility of two mediocre fighters in the last parts" part.

My vote goes to Fox as well.

[Mufasa]

So if the judges agree that Sothe does turn out better than Volke, will she still be demented? Or will you be for thinking Volke > Sothe?

*votes Sothe... if it even counts*

No, it means that the judges are just as demented.

...Probably shouldn't have said that as they're still judging us.

[Knife]

No, it means that the judges are just as demented.

...Probably shouldn't have said that as they're still judging us.

Everyone is else is wrong and you are right. I knew it would end this way. I gotta give you points for trying to defend Volke, though from what I've seen, you'd even defend Meg over Sothe.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Knife

[Mufasa]

Everyone is else is wrong and you are right. I knew it would end this way. I gotta give you points for trying to defend Volke, though from what I've seen, you'd even defend Meg over Sothe.

Geeze dude, I'm joking.

So it's been decided that statistically Sothe is better than Volke, that doesn't mean that my opinion has changed. But I'm willing to accept that my belief is in the minority. And I don't hate people for thinking differently. I didn't expect Fox to change her opinion if I won. Otherwise it wouldn't have been much of a debate. Like the last one between me and Fox.

[Knife]

Geeze dude, I'm joking.

So it's been decided that statistically Sothe is better than Volke, that doesn't mean that my opinion has changed. But I'm willing to accept that my belief is in the minority. And I don't hate people for thinking differently. I didn't expect Fox to change her opinion if I won. Otherwise it wouldn't have been much of a debate. Like the last one between me and Fox.

You have repeatedly said that people who support Sothe are blind, demented, and "anyone who says Sothe is better deserves to hang upside down 30 feet in the air for three hours while they think about what they've done". I'm starting to think it's not a joke. I would just like you to stop saying things like that. I was fine when you said Sothe sucks, but I don't like it when you say things about the people behind him.

Someone on this site told me to voice my opinion instead of keeping it bottled up and lashing out at you for another reason. Don't worry, I don't hate you.

[dondon151]

I don't quite get how "taking away experience" is countered.

I use a similar strategy, but he fights when he needs to. Take away experience? That's a terrible argument. Nolan just killed a guy. Oops, Edward/Micaiah/Leonardo/Ilyana/etc. didn't get that kill, so Nolan just took away experience from the rest of your team.

This I completely agree with; EXP is in limited supply, and what goes to one unit has to be taken away from any of the others. But if Sothe kills for 4 EXP while any other unpromoted DB member kills for 32 EXP, wouldn't each kill that Sothe takes effectively reduce the total EXP supply by 28 points? At least if we're comparing Nolan taking kills to say, Edward (let's say that Nolan gets 24 EXP per kill and Edward gets 32 EXP per kill), the total EXP supply is only reduced by 8 points per Nolan's kill. And if we're comparing units at around the same level, the total EXP supply will always be the same after anyone's kill.

The point is, Sothe would gain 1/25 of a level per kill while any other unpromoted DB member gains about 1/3 of a level per kill. Wouldn't this qualify as inefficient use/distribution of EXP? I think that's the point that Lyle was trying to make.

Not that Sothe should be getting many kills early-game anyway. I'm glad they made him a Rogue with knives' innate crappy might because that makes him really good at supporting the other characters.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I don't quite get how "taking away experience" is countered.

This I completely agree with; EXP is in limited supply, and what goes to one unit has to be taken away from any of the others. But if Sothe kills for 4 EXP while any other unpromoted DB member kills for 32 EXP, wouldn't each kill that Sothe takes effectively reduce the total EXP supply by 28 points? At least if we're comparing Nolan taking kills to say, Edward (let's say that Nolan gets 24 EXP per kill and Edward gets 32 EXP per kill), the total EXP supply is only reduced by 8 points per Nolan's kill. And if we're comparing units at around the same level, the total EXP supply will always be the same after anyone's kill.

The point is, Sothe would gain 1/25 of a level per kill while any other unpromoted DB member gains about 1/3 of a level per kill. Wouldn't this qualify as inefficient use/distribution of EXP? I think that's the point that Lyle was trying to make.

Not that Sothe should be getting many kills early-game anyway. I'm glad they made him a Rogue with knives' innate crappy might because that makes him really good at supporting the other characters.

But the point Fox pretty much brought up is that since Sothe is already a higher level, he doesn't NEED as much EXP, so he's already at an advantage. Technically, he GIVES you all the EXP it would have taken to level him up. That's why units like Sothe are good. :D

[Mekkah]

The point is, Sothe would gain 1/25 of a level per kill while any other unpromoted DB member gains about 1/3 of a level per kill. Wouldn't this qualify as inefficient use/distribution of EXP? I think that's the point that Lyle was trying to make.

it was sufficiently countered by saying that Sothe doesn't take more EXP away from the team than, say, Nolan.

so once again, I post this for those who haven't read it already. Substitute Seth for Sothe, and any Sacred Stones unit for a Dawn Brigade member, and it still works out.

6.3 Hogging EXP

This point is often used against Seth, Titania and several FE10 units, especially Sothe. They "hog EXP", according to some, and count this as a negative. This couldn't be more wrong - if anything, they are doing the opposite.

Let's say we are comparing Seth and Franz. Seth is a L1 Paladin, while Franz a L1 Cavalier. Some people say that Seth should not get many kills - after all, other units gain more EXP and need this EXP more than Seth. What those making this argument do not realize is that this is not a negative, but more of a positive for Seth. Think about it. Seth "not needing EXP" cannot be a negative for him. It's like saying that Guy not needing a Speedwing while Oswin would like one is a negative for Guy.

Gaining less EXP is not a negative either, it's an effect caused by having a higher level to begin with. Seth pretty much comes with 1900 more EXP than Franz. Seth's lower EXP gains only affect his own growth. The fact that he doesn't gain as much EXP as Franz does is represented by Seth not having improved as much as Franz by giving them the same amount of kills. When both haven't killed anything, Seth's stats are superior. When Franz has killed 10 enemies, he is probably around L4 or L5, but he's still worse than a base level Seth (with 30 EXP or so). Same after 20, 30, 40, etc enemies. Only when Franz is around L18 while Seth is L2 or L3, Franz is starting to become comparable, while he was definitely worse by a lot.

L1 Seth is as good as a L18 Franz off the bat.

Franz isn't as good as Seth until he hits L18.

After reading this, some would still insist that it's better that Seth does not get any kills. However, that is basically handing Seth another advantage: it's showing that he has a secondary method of being used, and apparently this second method is better (I would argue it is not, but that is another story). If "2nd method Seth" > "1st method Seth", and "1st method Seth" > Franz, then it logically follows that "2nd method Seth" >Franz as well. Of course, it won't show that Seth is better than Franz in the stats now when they are compared when Franz has caught up, but the EXP that Seth would have gotten now went to other units on the team, which is another advantage.

Or, in other words, let's compare three teams, and distribute 100 kills among them. Let's say 5 kills is a level on average, except for Seth, who would need 25.

Team A has Seth, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and each is given equal amount of kills, so 25.

Team B has Seth, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and Seth is only getting 4 kills, while the other 21 are given away to others, giving each of those 25+7=32 kills.

Team C has Franz, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and each is given equal amount of kills, so 25.

Team A: L2 Seth, L7 Arthur, L6 Lute, L6 Vanessa.

Team B: L1 Seth, L8 Arthur, L7 Lute, L7 Vanessa

Team C: L6 Franz, L7 Arthur, L6 Lute, L6 Vanessa

Clearly Team A and B are both much stronger than team C, and both A and B have Seth. The non-Seth units on team A are equal to the non-Franz units on team C, and the non-Seth units on team B are clearly beating those of team C.

This argument goes for any prepromote, or any unit that gains less EXP...or actually, for any unit, really. This even goes for FE6/FE7 Marcus, though it should be added that those have a negative effect on the EXP rank. It also goes for units that hit L20 before promotion, such as Eirika and Ephraim.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Mekkah

[dondon151]

This argument goes for any prepromote, or any unit that gains less EXP...or actually, for any unit, really. This even goes for FE6/FE7 Marcus, though it should be added that those have a negative effect on the EXP rank. It also goes for units that hit L20 before promotion, such as Eirika and Ephraim.

This was what I was trying to say. Whether or not the unit doesn't need EXP or helps other units gain EXP doesn't change the fact that it reduces the EXP rank (or in the case where rank doesn't exist, the EXP supply). Efficiency involves maximizing EXP gain while minimizing turns taken, and I think that hampering EXP efficiency is an uncounterable negative. You can mitigate its impact by saying that the unit comes being innately better than everyone else, but to me these points seem unrelated, because base stats and base level are unrelated. If Seth started as a level 12 cavalier with his level 1 paladin base stats, he would be considered even better (disregarding the loss of 1 base move). Evidently, lower base level is better than higher base level, and higher base stats are better than lower base stats.

In effect, you have "unit is good because he comes with high base stats" and "unit is bad because he comes with high level" existing, not in conflict with each other. Or something like that. In the end, it's the same difference anyway, and I'm probably just arguing over a subtle difference between "addressing" a point and "countering" a point, but whatever.

Also, in the comparison between teams A, B, and C, team B is better than team A. Seth rapes everything regardless if he's level 1 or level 2 (depending on point in the game, but we can assume that it is pretty early), while the other 3 members on team B benefit much more from that extra level, since stat differences matter most when PC stats and enemy stats are closest.

Edited December 17, 2008 by dondon151

[Mekkah]

Yes, it reduces the EXP supply if Sothe kills something. But guess what? It reduces the supply too when everyone else kills something, whether it's Nolan, Micaiah, Edward, Leonardo or Nailah. Regardless of how much EXP you gain yourself from a kill, others can't get it if you do. The only way you're affected is that you grow slowly. Unless you let Sothe take more kills than everyone else, but the same happens if you let Nolan or Nailah do that.

If Seth started as a level 12 cavalier with his level 1 paladin base stats, he would be considered even better (disregarding the loss of 1 base move). Evidently, lower base level is better than higher base level, and higher base stats are better than lower base stats.

Yes, but that's irrelevant, since we have a unit at high level with better stats, and a unit at lower level with worse stats. FE generally doesn't want you to have your cake and eat it that way.

Efficiency involves maximizing EXP gain while minimizing turns taken, and I think that hampering EXP efficiency is an uncounterable negative.

There's no such thing as EXP efficiency, or if there is, it doesn't hurt Sothe's case at all. He grows more slowly, but that's his own problem, and it doesn't drag the team down more than if he were substituted by someone who takes an equal amount of kills. That person grows faster, but is worse to begin with. Basically, Sothe starts with a worth of 1000, while someone like Edward could start at 10, and while Sothe only gains 1 worth per kill, while Edward gains 10, Sothe is still better off for the majority of the time.

Also, in the comparison between teams A, B, and C, team B is better than team A.

And they both involve using Seth, just different methods. If one method > the other method, then it doesn't work against him, but for him.

Also, remember that team A had Seth killing things, massively increasing earlygame your combat efficiency.

[Vykan12]

It amazes me how many "hogging exp" arguments I see on every FE board I've been on. The only difference between two units taking a certain amount of kills is their rate of levelling growth, simple as that. Personally, I buy into the idea that people just find it intrinsically more satisfying to grow units than it is to beat chapters with units who are already powerful since it is a more rewarding experience. The notion that sticks in my head is how MMORPGs like WoW get people addicted to their gamplay by constantly offering the player ways to gain things and prosper, thus leading to incessant rewarding for the player's efforts.

All to say, I think that a player's emotional feelings towards rewarding characters intereferes with their reasoning, which is why you see people claim absurd things like Nino > anyone or Edward > Zihark or only care about a character's endgame worth without giving any consideration towards their current state of suckage.

[Agro]

So... the easy way out of arguing over EXP hogging is "why use shit characters when you can use good ones?"