Should Gen X be a "back to roots" generation?

[Lord_Brand]

Something that just ocurred to me: What if Generation X was dedicated to stripping away a lot of the more frivolous elements of modern Pokemon titles that, in the eyes of some fans, may be leading to a decline in the overall quality of the series?

Now, to be clear I'm not talking about just remaking Red and Blue and calling it a day. I mean more of a "back to roots" in concept, such as the villain team being simple crooks using Pokemon to commit crimes with no grandiose plans of reshaping the cosmos or pushing self-righteous ideals, or the rival being someone not necessarily nice but maybe "love to hate", with a wit and virtue to them that still makes them likeable or admirable in some way. The legendary Pokemon don't have to factor into the plot, they can be optional superbosses that you seek out (seriously, every generation since III has forced the legendaries to matter to the plot in some way; would be nice to finally take a break from that convention).

I guess the best kind of comparison I can make is to a game like Mega Man 11, which wasn't a remake of Mega Man 1 but does pattern itself after 1 in various ways, including featuring Robot Masters whose designs and abilities are clearly based on those in 1. Nevertheless, Mega Man 11 does update the series' look and sound, and does add its own twists and innovations such as the Double Gear system, as well as animation and voice acting that are actually serviceable.

So, what if Generation X was basically the new Generation I?

[Armchair General]

The series is kind of doomed by design. For instance:

5 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

such as the villain team being simple crooks using Pokemon to commit crimes with no grandiose plans of reshaping the cosmos or pushing self-righteous ideals,

You have an mythical creature that's capable of bending reality to it's will and it winds up in the hands of an fucking kid or someone else who actually had the means to start an small war, get fucking rich,or revolutionize society but wastes most of his time chasing the reality-warping dragon

 

5 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

or the rival being someone not necessarily nice but maybe "love to hate", with a wit and virtue to them that still makes them likeable or admirable in some way

 But yeah, most of the  rivals throughout the series felt kind of one-dimensional in one way or the other.

 

[Fabulously Olivier]

I'm hoping for:

 

Removal of EVs and IVs, forever. Replaced with a stat mechanic that can be freely assigned and freely reassigned.

 

Return of a more antagonistic rival.

 

Return of actual antagonistic villain teams with an actual motivation

 

Keep modern conveniences (full party xp share, xp on capture).

 

Introduce new QoL from competitors - such as being able to equip and unequip each mon's skills freely.

 

Bring back megas.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Armchair General said:

You have an mythical creature that's capable of bending reality to it's will and it winds up in the hands of an fucking kid or someone else who actually had the means to start an small war, get fucking rich,or revolutionize society but wastes most of his time chasing the reality-warping dragon

See, this actually makes me think of a Pokemon game where you play as the "bad guy". How, you may ask? Easy - by playing the game normally.

Basically, you and your rival are sent out by the Professor with a familiar instruction - gotta catch 'em all! So, you start doing so, catching and battling them. Although, if you spend long enough in one route, catching and battling them, you might notice the wild Pokemon becoming scarcer...

The main villains in this game are like Team Plasma, but they don't do Pokemon battles. Instead, they're hackers, who release Pokemon currently held in the PC system. This actually happens to the main character, who finds "Box 1" emptied at one point! So, you declare revenge on them.

Eventually, you face the Legendary Pokemon - but catching them comes with a cost. Catch Kyogre, for instance, and you see the region afflicted by a drought. Catch Dialga, and you discover a town whose residents are frozen in time - and another where they move at double-speed!

Your rival starts to question the mission you've both been given, and eventually releases most of her Pokemon. You, the player, have an option. You can keep the Pokemon for yourself, as the world around you continues to deteriorate - or you can return them to the wild. Pick the former, and it plays like a traditional Pokemon game - albeit one where, at a certain point, new wild Pokemon cease to exist.

Pick the latter, and it turns out - you're unable to? See, the Professor needs to keep doing " research" on your Pokemon, including the Legendaries. Investigating further, you and your rival discover that the Professor's been abusing the Pokemon you've sent him. You need to work together to stop him, and his lab techs.

Once you defeat him, you can release your Pokemon (in particular, the Legendaries) and restore life and joy to the world. However, if you've truly bonded with a Pokemon, and treated it right, then it'll come back after you try to release it. This represents a way for Trainers and Pokemon to coexist and collaborate... without keeping a mountain of them trapped in cyberspace.

[Hrothgar777]

This is something I've given thought to. I tried playing Gen IX but, despite it being objectively the best new Pokemon gen in a decade, I couldn't get into it.

Me being an old fart as opposed to the kid I used to be has something to do with it, sure, but I don't think that's all. More like, there's something about how the original games were framed that has been lost in translation over time.

The basic functions of Pokemon haven't changed much. You go around exploring, Pokemon have designs, types, and movesets, there's baddies, and a gym challenge. All I can think of is that the old games, by being graphically primitive, forced the reader to fill in some of the gaps with their imagination. This is the reason why books still have an appeal in the age of movies, and why people often prefer books to their movie adaptations.

 

You can't demake Pokemon at this point; it's a sprawling, billion dollar franchise with an extremely broad appeal. You can't rewrite what it's evolved into over the last 25 years. You can't alienate 90% of the fanbase to satisfy 10%.

What I think Nintendo should try instead is an experiment. Go for a professional, well-made retro game of the monster collecting/battling genre like Pokemon Red/Blue/Yellow/Green but with a fresh feel.

This project should not fall back on the Pokemon IP at all, and Gen X should be what 90% of fans want it to be: a bigger, better version of Scarlet/Violet with some new 'mons thrown in.

 

Quote

 

I mean more of a "back to roots" in concept, such as the villain team being simple crooks using Pokemon to commit crimes with no grandiose plans of reshaping the cosmos or pushing self-righteous ideals, or the rival being someone not necessarily nice but maybe "love to hate", with a wit and virtue to them that still makes them likeable or admirable in some way. 

 

 

 

You mean like it tells a simple, black and white story? I get how a long story that you can't skip might be a slog, but this could be addressed with a "Skip Dialogue" button like many games have.

Edited April 27 by Hrothgar777

[ARMADS!!!]

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

See, this actually makes me think of a Pokemon game where you play as the "bad guy". How, you may ask? Easy - by playing the game normally.

Basically, you and your rival are sent out by the Professor with a familiar instruction - gotta catch 'em all! So, you start doing so, catching and battling them. Although, if you spend long enough in one route, catching and battling them, you might notice the wild Pokemon becoming scarcer...

The main villains in this game are like Team Plasma, but they don't do Pokemon battles. Instead, they're hackers, who release Pokemon currently held in the PC system. This actually happens to the main character, who finds "Box 1" emptied at one point! So, you declare revenge on them.

Eventually, you face the Legendary Pokemon - but catching them comes with a cost. Catch Kyogre, for instance, and you see the region afflicted by a drought. Catch Dialga, and you discover a town whose residents are frozen in time - and another where they move at double-speed!

Your rival starts to question the mission you've both been given, and eventually releases most of her Pokemon. You, the player, have an option. You can keep the Pokemon for yourself, as the world around you continues to deteriorate - or you can return them to the wild. Pick the former, and it plays like a traditional Pokemon game - albeit one where, at a certain point, new wild Pokemon cease to exist.

Pick the latter, and it turns out - you're unable to? See, the Professor needs to keep doing " research" on your Pokemon, including the Legendaries. Investigating further, you and your rival discover that the Professor's been abusing the Pokemon you've sent him. You need to work together to stop him, and his lab techs.

Once you defeat him, you can release your Pokemon (in particular, the Legendaries) and restore life and joy to the world. However, if you've truly bonded with a Pokemon, and treated it right, then it'll come back after you try to release it. This represents a way for Trainers and Pokemon to coexist and collaborate... without keeping a mountain of them trapped in cyberspace.

You mean that our box 1 would be emptied for real in the middle of the game? I'd find that'd a horrible move that would probably make me want to give up on the game instead of going for revenge lol. And if I knew that this event was gonna happen via spoilers then could I just move all of my pokemon (maybe except one?) to the other boxes to avoid losing them/my favorite?

 Although, I do like the idea of "you" being the villain.

[Armchair General]

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

See, this actually makes me think of a Pokemon game where you play as the "bad guy". How, you may ask? Easy - by playing the game normally.

Basically, you and your rival are sent out by the Professor with a familiar instruction - gotta catch 'em all! So, you start doing so, catching and battling them. Although, if you spend long enough in one route, catching and battling them, you might notice the wild Pokemon becoming scarcer...

Yeah, but I doubt if we'll ever live to see Game Freak flip the script like this

[lenticular]

I can't see this working very well for Gen X or any other generational cohort but it could make for an interesting spin-off game. For the main series, I think there have just been too many things that have been added over the years, and while most people would probably agree that only a few of those things are core to the series, they probably wouldn't agree on exactly which things. What are we keeping and what are we cutting? Breeding? Shinies? A large pokédex? Abilities? Held items? Natures? Double battles? A battle facility? A post-game? Character customisation? Move deleter? Move relearner? The physical/special split? And many more. I know there are some of those things that I wouldn't want to do away with and others that I could happily do without. You probably have your list as well and they are probably not the same list. So it seems like it would be a big risk for them to do this with their flagpole release and risk alienating a bunch of people.

But for a spin-off? Yeah, absolutely. Go with 2D pixel graphics, have a limited pokédex of only 151 pokémon, very simplified story, minimal extraneous features, and maybe a $30 price tag? That sounds like a lot of fun to me, and probably more likely to get me personally back into Pokémon than actual Gen X (still funny) will. And since it would be a lower effort and lower stakes game than the main series, it would probably be more reasonable for them to put something like that out into the world and just see how successful it would be and what sort of appetite there is for it. I doubt that they actually will do something like this, but I would like to see it.

[Lord_Brand]

I wasn't suggesting making the game "retro style", nor was I suggesting cutting a bunch of the now-standard features, many of which I myself welcome. Mostly, I was talking about the prospect of the next generation revisiting some of the simple concepts of Gen I and using them as a baseline.

For example, there's a lot you can do with a simple crime gang. Maybe a valuable artifact went missing, and you decide to go looking for it, or members of the crime gang infiltrate a cruise ship with the intention of hijacking or sabotaging it. More practical villainy, with more grounded goals. Over time, the Teams in Pokemon have gotten more and more ridiculous, in their appearance as well as their motives. The series could use more Rockets and Snagems to provide a down-to-earth edge to Pokemon's world again. Team Skull came close to this, but they turned out to be working for the Aether Foundation, who definitely qualify for "over the top". This extends to the Team Leaders as well, especially in recent years.

Spoiler

Penny of Team Star was an interesting case for being more or less a friend working to bring down the very Team she helped start, but bully victims-turned-bullies just aren't a very compelling concept for a "villain" Team. The idea of Team Admins who specialize in types is a neat idea, I'd just rather see it elsewhere.

Piers of Team Yell barely even feels like a leader, just as Team Yell barely even feel like a Team. They're a fanclub of groupies following a girl who happens to be the sister of their leader. Seriously, the modern Teams are pathetic, if we're being honest. Piers is a nice guy and all, but he had no business being a Team Leader.

Guzma of Team Skull scores points for being basically what a good Pokemon rival would be - someone who comes off as a bigtime jerk at first, yet has undeniable charisma that makes it so you can't really hate him. He's the closest we've gotten to a true Blue successor. And honestly, I kinda dig the idea of the rival being a member of the Team, or at least trying to become one. Of the modern Teams, Skull definitely stands the strongest, if only because they're just so dang entertaining with their attempts at being tough guys while having a genuine sympathetic backstory.

Lysandre of Team Flare is one of the over-the-top villains who wants a superweapon with which to take over the world. Except, Pokemon already basically are superweapons, and he was introduced in the generation that brought us Mega Evolutions. Wouldn't it make more sense to focus a scheme on that? Like gathering as many Mega Stones as possible to try and create an army of Mega Pokemon?

Ghetsis of Team Plasma is often regarded as the most evil of the Team Leaders. Of the middle three, he definitely works best, with his manipulation of N and his insincere reasons for wanting to take away everyone else's Pokemon so he can't be challenged. But, he's still dressed like a cult leader with a Saiyan scouter, so it's still hard to take him seriously. The knight theme is pretty cool, though. A pity they couldn't save that for SWSH, would have been pretty badass to fight a team of knights there.

Cyrus stands out for being the biggest jerk of all the Team Leaders, and we're never given a good reason why. His Team Grunts also have some of the most ridiculous costumes. I would go so far as to say that Cyrus is the worst Team Leader of the series, as he's not even the most menacing, nor fun to fight or interact with.

Archie and Maxie of Aqua and Magma respectively were certainly an interesting concept for the merit of two Teams who are rivals, and in the ORAS remakes they were given better motivations than "we want more land/water just because". I also dig Aqua's pirate theme.

Then...there's Giovanni of Team Rocket. A sharply-dressed mob boss with a sinister smile who commands thugs that deal in Pokemon trafficking among many other heinous crimes, and are ruthless enough to kill Pokemon outright. No over-the-top schemes, outlandish costumes, or sympethetic sob stories to rationalize his actions; just a crime lord and his gang who want to profit off Pokemon in every way possible, and ultimately conquer the world. Being a Gym Leader may well have given Gio some clout within whatever passes for a government in Pokemon's world, and that might explain why his Team operated in Kanto virtually unchallenged until one youth came along and fudged the whole thing up. And even when things went south, Giovanni simply walked away. He wasn't frozen, or trapped, and as far as we know not arrested. And even after he left, his legacy continued under the leadership of his admins. Giovanni is easily the most chilling and sinister villain Pokemon has ever had, and it's not because of the sheer scale of the threat he poses but because of how real his threat feels.

Put quite simply, I don't think any Pokemon villain since has ever quite measured up to Giovanni.

So yeah, I think the next Team villain would do well to borrow some pages from Giovanni's book. Perhaps an official like Chairman Rose who already controls much of the region, but has darker yet more pragmatic motives like Giovanni? I'm not talking a beat-for-beat retread of Team Rocket, simply a villain team that actually feels threatening, with a boss to match. Maybe this Team Leader could be the Champion, to boot?

Edited April 28 by Lord_Brand

[ciphertul]

3 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

I wasn't suggesting making the game "retro style", nor was I suggesting cutting a bunch of the now-standard features, many of which I myself welcome. Mostly, I was talking about the prospect of the next generation revisiting some of the simple concepts of Gen I and using them as a baseline.

For example, there's a lot you can do with a simple crime gang. Maybe a valuable artifact went missing, and you decide to go looking for it, or members of the crime gang infiltrate a cruise ship with the intention of hijacking or sabotaging it. More practical villainy, with more grounded goals. Over time, the Teams in Pokemon have gotten more and more ridiculous, in their appearance as well as their motives. The series could use more Rockets and Snagems to provide a down-to-earth edge to Pokemon's world again. Team Skull came close to this, but they turned out to be working for the Aether Foundation, who definitely qualify for "over the top". This extends to the Team Leaders as well, especially in recent years.

  Reveal hidden contents

Penny of Team Star was an interesting case for being more or less a friend working to bring down the very Team she helped start, but bully victims-turned-bullies just aren't a very compelling concept for a "villain" Team. The idea of Team Admins who specialize in types is a neat idea, I'd just rather see it elsewhere.

Piers of Team Yell barely even feels like a leader, just as Team Yell barely even feel like a Team. They're a fanclub of groupies following a girl who happens to be the sister of their leader. Seriously, the modern Teams are pathetic, if we're being honest. Piers is a nice guy and all, but he had no business being a Team Leader.

Guzma of Team Skull scores points for being basically what a good Pokemon rival would be - someone who comes off as a bigtime jerk at first, yet has undeniable charisma that makes it so you can't really hate him. He's the closest we've gotten to a true Blue successor. And honestly, I kinda dig the idea of the rival being a member of the Team, or at least trying to become one. Of the modern Teams, Skull definitely stands the strongest, if only because they're just so dang entertaining with their attempts at being tough guys while having a genuine sympathetic backstory.

Lysandre of Team Flare is one of the over-the-top villains who wants a superweapon with which to take over the world. Except, Pokemon already basically are superweapons, and he was introduced in the generation that brought us Mega Evolutions. Wouldn't it make more sense to focus a scheme on that? Like gathering as many Mega Stones as possible to try and create an army of Mega Pokemon?

Ghetsis of Team Plasma is often regarded as the most evil of the Team Leaders. Of the middle three, he definitely works best, with his manipulation of N and his insincere reasons for wanting to take away everyone else's Pokemon so he can't be challenged. But, he's still dressed like a cult leader with a Saiyan scouter, so it's still hard to take him seriously. The knight theme is pretty cool, though. A pity they couldn't save that for SWSH, would have been pretty badass to fight a team of knights there.

Cyrus stands out for being the biggest jerk of all the Team Leaders, and we're never given a good reason why. His Team Grunts also have some of the most ridiculous costumes. I would go so far as to say that Cyrus is the worst Team Leader of the series, as he's not even the most menacing, nor fun to fight or interact with.

Archie and Maxie of Aqua and Magma respectively were certainly an interesting concept for the merit of two Teams who are rivals, and in the ORAS remakes they were given better motivations than "we want more land/water just because". I also dig Aqua's pirate theme.

Then...there's Giovanni of Team Rocket. A sharply-dressed mob boss with a sinister smile who commands thugs that deal in Pokemon trafficking among many other heinous crimes, and are ruthless enough to kill Pokemon outright. No over-the-top schemes, outlandish costumes, or sympethetic sob stories to rationalize his actions; just a crime lord and his gang who want to profit off Pokemon in every way possible, and ultimately conquer the world. Being a Gym Leader may well have given Gio some clout within whatever passes for a government in Pokemon's world, and that might explain why his Team operated in Kanto virtually unchallenged until one youth came along and fudged the whole thing up. And even when things went south, Giovanni simply walked away. He wasn't frozen, or trapped, and as far as we know not arrested. And even after he left, his legacy continued under the leadership of his admins. Giovanni is easily the most chilling and sinister villain Pokemon has ever had, and it's not because of the sheer scale of the threat he poses but because of how real his threat feels.

Put quite simply, I don't think any Pokemon villain since has ever quite measured up to Giovanni.

So yeah, I think the next Team villain would do well to borrow some pages from Giovanni's book. Perhaps an official like Chairman Rose who already controls much of the region, but has darker yet more pragmatic motives like Giovanni? I'm not talking a beat-for-beat retread of Team Rocket, simply a villain team that actually feels threatening, with a boss to match. Maybe this Team Leader could be the Champion, to boot?

If you want a team to be more criminal then they should use Cypher as the base. The Shadow pokemon should be brought back and expanded upon. Remember Cypher made the Snag machine, hijacked a cruise liner and built a gambling tower. Not to mention the lawless Under and citadark isle.

[ARMADS!!!]

14 hours ago, lenticular said:

But for a spin-off? Yeah, absolutely. Go with 2D pixel graphics, have a limited pokédex of only 151 pokémon, very simplified story, minimal extraneous features, and maybe a $30 price tag? That sounds like a lot of fun to me, and probably more likely to get me personally back into Pokémon than actual Gen X (still funny) will. And since it would be a lower effort and lower stakes game than the main series, it would probably be more reasonable for them to put something like that out into the world and just see how successful it would be and what sort of appetite there is for it. I doubt that they actually will do something like this, but I would like to see it.

Even though the OP said that that was not eaxctly what he meant, I'd find this pretty cool, it could end up being like Sonic Mania (for whoever isn't familiar: It was a 2D game launched in 2017- long after Sonic became exclusively 3D- and worked just like the classic games of the series, and now it's generally considered to be among the best Sonic games ever made) but for Pokemon. Of course, doesn't haver to be like gen 1, they'd probably pick the most popular elements of the series as a whole (or from the 2D games at least) instead and as you said, I think it wouldn't please everybody no matter what too, since we all like different things, but I'd still find it to be a good idea. Being a spin off or a spin off series, ir would hardly alienate anyone.

 I'm a person that prefers 2D games in general (and, not sure how popular is this opinion, but I don't really like the appearence of the 3D pokemon games, specially in comparision to some of the 2D ones like the GBA titles) so it simply being a 2D pokemon game would already be nice enough to me.

[lenticular]

I never found Team Rocket to be particularly compelling or effective. In theory, sure, an organised crime boss should be more grounded and compelling than some of the super villains that followed, but I never felt that this really meshed well with everything else the game was doing. Because ultimately, there are two unescapable facts about Team Rocket: in gameplay, they're all a bunch of incompetent mooks who you will breeze past without breakign a sweat; in story, their entire crime syndicate gets taken down by a ten year old. I find it impossible to take them seriously, so I prefer the more over-the-top teams that lean into the fact that they are jokes.

(Though my favourite team are Team Yell, because I think there's some interesting commentary about class dynamics hidden under their goofy exterior, but this probably isn't the right topic to go too deep into that.)

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

So, I know I went off on a tangent about a game that'll never be made. But to the original prompt, I'm sorta for it. Namely, I like the idea of looking to Gen I for inspiration as a "budding off point".

See, there are plenty of elements that have become "series standards". Three starters in Grass, Fire, and Water, who each evolve twice by level-up. Eight Pokemon Gyms, in increasing power level, followed by an Elite Four and a Champion. A childhood frenemy rival who you encounter multiple times on your journey. Six Mons to a team, with four moves apiece. A PP system that is unforgiving to higher-power moves. A villainous team that's simultaneously super menacing, and yet incompetent enough to be dismantled by a ten-year-old.

But in Gen I, none of those traits had become "series standards" yet. They were just aspects of the first set of games. Later generations would play with some of these. It's no secret that the Rivals have gotten more amiable, while some later games would feature multiple Rivals. Gen VII did away with gyms entirely, in favor of Totem Pokemon and Island Kahunas - only to chicken out at the last minute, and install a traditional E4. And obviously, the villainous teams have varied in their scope, style, and scariness.

Basically, I'd like to see a game that's willing to "change up" more of the things that have become intractable series standards. Do a starter trio of some other type triangle, such as "Grass-Poison-Ground" - or, heck, more than three choices! Instead of a fixed party size of 6, let the party size increase as you progress - from as few as 2, to as many as 10! Give every Pokemon one "fixed move" with infinite PP (like Tackle, Vine Whip, or Low Kick), so they never get stuck with Struggle - while stronger moves have low in-battle PP (i.e. 3 Hydro Pumps) that restores itself in-between battles. Do a Gym for all 18 types, and let the player choose the order they challenge them in, with proper difficulty scaling.

14 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

But, he's still dressed like a cult leader with a Saiyan scouter, so it's still hard to take him seriously. The knight theme is pretty cool, though. A pity they couldn't save that for SWSH, would have been pretty badass to fight a team of knights there.

IMO the aesthetic for Team Plasma was all over the place. They're an evil team in the region based on America, so they're...knights? But they also have the Seven Sages, who appear to be Chinese? And in the sequel, they just threw their hands up in the air and said "screw it, we're Ninja Pirates now".

At least Team Flare, as lame as they were, had a consistent aesthetic theme that made sense for their region. Of course they'd be fashion obsessives. They're all French.

14 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Lysandre of Team Flare is one of the over-the-top villains who wants a superweapon with which to take over the world. Except, Pokemon already basically are superweapons, and he was introduced in the generation that brought us Mega Evolutions. Wouldn't it make more sense to focus a scheme on that? Like gathering as many Mega Stones as possible to try and create an army of Mega Pokemon?

Yeah, I was hoping that the imagined sequel to X and Y - Pokemon Z - would do something like this. Make a new evil team, that's creating additional Mega Evolutions. And also Mega Evolving multiple times per battle. Maybe let Korinna be involved, since she introduced Mega Evolution to the player. Turns out, though, the new Megas are hurting the Pokemon. And doing multiple Megas per battle is hurting the trainers. Has science gone too far? In this case, it has, and you need to stop it.

10 hours ago, ciphertul said:

If you want a team to be more criminal then they should use Cypher as the base. The Shadow pokemon should be brought back and expanded upon. Remember Cypher made the Snag machine, hijacked a cruise liner and built a gambling tower. Not to mention the lawless Under and citadark isle.

Yeah, Cipher was pretty excellent. I love how they came across as a real organization - and their use of Shadow Pokemon was particularly villainous. Not to mention, futuristic outfits and great music. Admittedly, though, the "evil team" was the main focus of the Gamecube RPGs - rather than the Gyms, or a Dex - so they had to go hard.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Doing a "back to the roots" thing might actually make me interested in Pokemon again, but I don't have faith in them to do anything like that. Especially with how willing they are to push out mediocre products because of how complacent they've become.

[Hrothgar777]

On 4/27/2024 at 2:40 PM, Hrothgar777 said:

You can't demake Pokemon at this point; it's a sprawling, billion dollar franchise with an extremely broad appeal. You can't rewrite what it's evolved into over the last 25 years. You can't alienate 90% of the fanbase to satisfy 10%.

What I think Nintendo should try instead is an experiment. Go for a professional, well-made retro game of the monster collecting/battling genre like Pokemon Red/Blue/Yellow/Green but with a fresh feel.

This project should not fall back on the Pokemon IP at all

I know now that this isn't what the OP was talking about. But making this post got my creative juices flowing, so let's-a-go.

500 years ago the most powerful wizard who ever lived created new life: the 'mons of this game. Magic in this world follows a law of equivalent exchange, based on thermodynamics, and it doesn't show up that often in this game, with few people knowing how to harness it effectively. The 'mons, who generally speaking have no magic powers, must also follow natural laws. For example, a rhyperior-like beast would have a staggering calorie profile, which would limit their numbers. Some have the anatomy needed to digest cellulose (grass) while others must forage. Some can live exclusively on grain while others can't. Some are strictly carnivorous. And so on.

Most 'mons have humanlike intelligence, or at least that of human children, but they had to start their civilization tree from the very bottom whereas mankind was at the Renaissance level. Thus, while there are no Pokeballs or apricorns, humans still have the overall upper hand. Humans live in towns and cities while the bulk of 'mons live in tribal bands outside the pale of human settlement. There are many human kingdoms and countless tiny 'mon protostates.

Many 'mons are of commercial interest to humans. One species will churn out large amounts of silk. Another has an organ that has medicinal value. Others are useful as beasts of burden, or their pelts are highly prized. Human merchants will buy raw materials from 'mons and resell them finished goods at a profit, or resell those raw goods to another species of 'mon for a profit. Ever changing realities of trade and diplomacy make relationships between humans and 'mons complicated.

'Mons aren't as powerful as Pokemon. Those which are, again, are handicapped by needing a lot of food. And they have other weaknesses like disease and wounds healing slowly. A well-trained and well-equipped human soldier will be on par with the average 'mon or even a little better. Hence, when it comes to "catching them all", you collect playable human characters as well. The level-up system would be more complicated and revolve around building skill, strength, and stamina, and improving gear.

Humans and 'mons alike can be killed in battle. However, not every battle ends in death, especially in the early game, where it's much more common for a fight to end when one side is mildly injured (either as a sort of training match or a losing attacker flees). You, the player, have weapons and must fight, along with recruiting humans and 'mons to join your party. You must either secure their loyalty or their paycheck, or otherwise convince them to side with you.

There are four legendary 'mons who affect things like the weather. Some people worship them and have built temples in their name, while other people are greedy and wish to catch them so these creatures can be most efficiently milked for their services.

 

I think so long as this^ achieved the right balance of linear quests and open world exploration, and didn't explain everything right off the bat, and had a pre-GBA look (with some beautiful cutscenes and artwork every now and then), it could recapture some of the magic of early Pokemon, without technically being Pokemon. And if nothing else, this post is a basic template for how Nintendo might try their hand at a retro Pokemon-like RPG.

Edited April 29 by Hrothgar777

[Lord_Brand]

On 4/28/2024 at 4:36 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Basically, I'd like to see a game that's willing to "change up" more of the things that have become intractable series standards. Do a starter trio of some other type triangle, such as "Grass-Poison-Ground" - or, heck, more than three choices! Instead of a fixed party size of 6, let the party size increase as you progress - from as few as 2, to as many as 10! Give every Pokemon one "fixed move" with infinite PP (like Tackle, Vine Whip, or Low Kick), so they never get stuck with Struggle - while stronger moves have low in-battle PP (i.e. 3 Hydro Pumps) that restores itself in-between battles. Do a Gym for all 18 types, and let the player choose the order they challenge them in, with proper difficulty scaling.

Alternate trios are an interesting concept, the trouble lies in balancing the themes and dynamics of those trios. Grass, Fire, and Water work well due to the variety they present, in colors as well as themes. For example, a trio with Rock and Ground might feel overly homogenous since both have that "earth" theme. I would suggest perhaps trying a trio of Pokemon that are dual-types from the get-go, like Grass/Flying, Fire/Rock, and Water/Fighting (my bro has estimated that Flying, Rock, and Fighting are one of the other two "true" trios, in so far as the weakness-resistance dynamics are concerned), as a way of easing people into the concept.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

5 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Alternate trios are an interesting concept, the trouble lies in balancing the themes and dynamics of those trios. Grass, Fire, and Water work well due to the variety they present, in colors as well as themes. For example, a trio with Rock and Ground might feel overly homogenous since both have that "earth" theme. I would suggest perhaps trying a trio of Pokemon that are dual-types from the get-go, like Grass/Flying, Fire/Rock, and Water/Fighting (my bro has estimated that Flying, Rock, and Fighting are one of the other two "true" trios, in so far as the weakness-resistance dynamics are concerned), as a way of easing people into the concept.

Not the only other true trio! We also have Steel > Rock > Fire.

While that would be better than nothing, I'm gonna be honest - I'm tired. I'm tired of the exact same mould for starters, with minor variations at most. I honestly can't see myself buying any future Pokemon title that still does "Fire-Water-Grass Starters with Blaze/Torrent/Overgrow who evolve in the teens, then again in the thirties." More power to anyone who still appreciates this trend, but personally, I'm donezo.

[Lord_Brand]

It would be nice to see more variety in the base abilties. Save the "low HP = power up" abilities for Pokemon that can actually use it effectively.

Which begs the question: If we could swap out the generic Starter abilities for more distinct ones, which would you pick?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 5/5/2024 at 6:03 AM, Lord_Brand said:

It would be nice to see more variety in the base abilties. Save the "low HP = power up" abilities for Pokemon that can actually use it effectively.

Which begs the question: If we could swap out the generic Starter abilities for more distinct ones, which would you pick?

For the record, I don't think Overgrow/Blaze/Torrent are bad abilities. Just overdone on the starters, in particular. It's at a point where fans are saying "I wonder what their secondary typings and hidden abilities are gonna be?", because their primary typings and abilities are taken for granted. It feels like we've come to accept scraps from GAME FREAK.

That said, as for new abilities on the already-existing starters? Well, they have their hidden abilities, most of which are good. But we could add a few more, I reckon...

Spoiler

Bulbasaur: Solar Power. It blooms a big flower in the sunlight, and uses Solarbeam.

Charmander: Flash Fire. It's strength varies with its flame, so more fire = more firepower.

Squirtle: Shell Armor. It's a turtle, so naturally a defensive ability should be here.

Chikorita: Natural Cure. Seems a natural (heh) fit for our flowering dinosaur friend.

Cyndaquil: Vital Spirit. Its eyes sre always closed, and yet it stays awake!

Totodile: Strong Jaw. Who better to get a biting ability, than our crocodilian comrade?

Treecko: Quick Feet. This line of lizards is fast on their feet, even when afflicted by status.

Torchic: Big Pecks. It's a bird that evolves into a more muscular form. Its defense is saved!

Mudkip: Oblivious. Our semi-aquatic friend has a reputation for its general doofiness.

Turtwig: Sand Force. This would make sense for our dirty "world turtle".

Chimchar: Pickup -> Anger Point. This monkey could have a real fiery temper, especially when it evolves into Infernape.

Piplup: Swift Swim -> Supreme Overlord. Start with extra speed in range, then gain power as an Empoleon.

Snivy: Unnerve. We know snakes can be scary - even enough to block berry consumption!

Tepig: Hustle. This pig family can hit even harder now, albeit less accurately.

Oshawott: Hyper Cutter. This line is known for its razor-sharp shell attacks.

That's all for now, but I might come back to add more abilities later on!

Edited Monday at 04:38 PM by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Added more.