Micaiah and Jarod should have swapped personalities

[Kantoor]

The main problem with Micaiah as a protagonist is that her defining traits are "kind, virtuous, beautiful, has special powers, can talk to animals", etc. and she immediately assumes a position of respected and admirable leadership from the beginning of the game. This is in stark contrast to Ike in FE9 who is immediately presented with traits, flaws and goals that make him a more multifaceted character. Her personality is also incredibly out of line with how Sothe described the urban youth of Daein in the previous game: cynical, resentful, nationalistic, destitute and ambitious. If Micaiah had these traits from the start it would give her room for character development and make the element of her questioning her actions on behalf of Daein in Part 3 significantly more impactful. Likewise, Jarod being unambiguously evil fodder rather than a more principled character who was simply tasked with commanding the occupation of a defeated country (of which there are many in Begnion) was a missed opportunity to highlight the internal divisions in the country. It also would have made killing Numida in Part 4 feel more meaningful, since he escaped culpability for his crimes in Part 1 by orchestrating Jarod's ultimate downfall and death. Currently there is currently nothing that would really make you care about him over any other Begnion senator.

Edited July 13 by Kantoor

[Jotari]

The main problem with Micaiah as a protagonist is that she gets cucked by Ike and Yune out of the spot. Her personality is irrelevant once she gets her body hijacked and is regulated to the background.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Micaiah is a protagonist, so she has mostly heroic traits... and her less admirable traits are exploited to help fuel the Part 3 conflict. Jarod, by contrast, is an antagonist with mostly villainous traits. I don't particularly think "commander of an abusive, occupying army" needed to be more sympathetic; I think how he's currently handled works quite well. As for Micaiah, while I don't think the way the story ultimately handles her is perfect (I agree with Jotari that she doesn't get enough in Part 4) she is absolutely one of the more interesting FE protagonists, as evidenced by the fact that she still generates discourse like this 17 years later.

[Original Alear]

10 hours ago, Kantoor said:

who was simply tasked with commanding the occupation of a defeated country (of which there are many in Begnion) was a missed opportunity to highlight the internal divisions in the country.

Does the script actually say this? Sorry for not knowing. I know Begnion is very large, but I didn't know that there was evidence there were any recently occupied countries besides Daien and, I guess, Serenes Forest (which isn't really occupied so much as destitute w/ its people in diaspora prior to FE9).

[lenticular]

Given that we spent the whole of the previous game looking at events from a perspective of "Daein = bad", I think it was important that we're presented with some unambiguously heroic Daein characters right from the start of Radiant Dawn. One of the main points to the story was seeing the war from multiple different perspectives and realising that it's more complex than just a good side fighting against an evil side. The very first thing that the game needed to establish was that the Dawn Brigade are good people and we should be cheering for them. If we hadn't had that then it would have felt like we were spending a few chapters playing as the villains before we got to go back to the heroes again.

I am also completely over the "I am a principled soldier who is just following orders so all these atrocities aren't actually my fault" characters (aka, the Camus archetype) so I'm really glad that they didn't go down that route for Jarod.

And Micaiah absolutely does have both flaws and goals. In abundance. One of the more interesting parts of her character is that her different goals are in conflict with each other. She wants to lie low and be anonymous, but she also wants to help people and do what is right, but she also wants to protect her homeland. And she can't have all of these things. She can't even manage two out of three, most of the time.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

The main problem with Micaiah as a protagonist is that she gets cucked by Ike and Yune out of the spot. Her personality is irrelevant once she gets her body hijacked and is regulated to the background.

And yeah, I agree with this. I mean, not the part about "cucked", obviously; I disagree with that part on principle. Everything else is spot on, though. We don't ever get a resolution to those conflicting desires of hers, because she's sidelined before she can either decide which is the most important to her or figure out a way to get them all to work together.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

she is absolutely one of the more interesting FE protagonists, as evidenced by the fact that she still generates discourse like this 17 years later.

Agreed. I think the only other FE protagonist who has generated a comparable level of discourse and controversy is Edelgard. I wonder if the two of them have anything in common. Hmmm. Must be the silver hair, I suspect.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

Given that we spent the whole of the previous game looking at events from a perspective of "Daein = bad", I think it was important that we're presented with some unambiguously heroic Daein characters right from the start of Radiant Dawn. One of the main points to the story was seeing the war from multiple different perspectives and realising that it's more complex than just a good side fighting against an evil side. The very first thing that the game needed to establish was that the Dawn Brigade are good people and we should be cheering for them. If we hadn't had that then it would have felt like we were spending a few chapters playing as the villains before we got to go back to the heroes again.

I am also completely over the "I am a principled soldier who is just following orders so all these atrocities aren't actually my fault" characters (aka, the Camus archetype) so I'm really glad that they didn't go down that route for Jarod.

And Micaiah absolutely does have both flaws and goals. In abundance. One of the more interesting parts of her character is that her different goals are in conflict with each other. She wants to lie low and be anonymous, but she also wants to help people and do what is right, but she also wants to protect her homeland. And she can't have all of these things. She can't even manage two out of three, most of the time.

And yeah, I agree with this. I mean, not the part about "cucked", obviously; I disagree with that part on principle. Everything else is spot on, though. We don't ever get a resolution to those conflicting desires of hers, because she's sidelined before she can either decide which is the most important to her or figure out a way to get them all to work together.

I'm not sure which part you're actually in disagreement with since we seem to be agreeing on all points from what I can see.

[Kantoor]

5 hours ago, Original Alear said:

Does the script actually say this? Sorry for not knowing. I know Begnion is very large, but I didn't know that there was evidence there were any recently occupied countries besides Daien and, I guess, Serenes Forest (which isn't really occupied so much as destitute w/ its people in diaspora prior to FE9).

I could have worded that more clearly, the meaning of that sentence is "there are many virtuous people in Begnion's ranks who are complicit in the actions of their government". The fact that Serenes Forest is technically an occupied nation is an interesting thing to think about though. Reyson's circumstances are very similar to Marth's when you look at it that way, except if Alteans were subjected to ethnic genocide and Marth, lacking the military strength to overthrow the Dolhrian alliance, simply remained exiled in Talys for decades afterwards with Elice dying in captivity.

6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Micaiah is a protagonist, so she has mostly heroic traits... and her less admirable traits are exploited to help fuel the Part 3 conflict. Jarod, by contrast, is an antagonist with mostly villainous traits. I don't particularly think "commander of an abusive, occupying army" needed to be more sympathetic; I think how he's currently handled works quite well. As for Micaiah, while I don't think the way the story ultimately handles her is perfect (I agree with Jotari that she doesn't get enough in Part 4) she is absolutely one of the more interesting FE protagonists, as evidenced by the fact that she still generates discourse like this 17 years later.

The thing is Ike also also has largely heroic traits but is imperfect and has things driving him beyond the immediate task of defeating the enemy. He's hotheaded, uncouth, his ability to lead is put under serious scrutiny, occasionally he makes principled decisions that reveal his recklessness and inexperience (such as insulting Begnion's Apostle and Senate in defense of Elincia), and he has the underlying motivating goal of proving himself and living up to his father's greatness. Micaiah is lacking things like this to overcome, and given the way young Daeins were already characterized by Sothe and Jill in FE9 it's actually strange for that to not be more visible in her character. As for the part about Jarod, there are already Begnion commanders like Veyona and Levail who are characterized as dutifully carrying out the tasks of their station without being driven by pure sadism and tyranny.

 

Edited July 13 by Kantoor

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Man, part of the "fun" of Jarod is his cold-hearted villainy. Likeable and sympathetic, he is not. But he's also not boring, in his arrogance and sycophancy. His I-E speech is one of the greatest moments of the game, and reinforces that a villain need not be relatable to be compelling.

And I think having him be this way is important, as we never really encounter anyone like this from Begnion in the last game. Sure, there are the Senators, but they're corrupt rich dudes. Jarod serves as a reminder that "ruthless, Machiavellian military man" isn't a unique trait to Daein's Ashnard. It's something shared by Jarod of Begnion.

...Actually, going further, the same could be said of Duke Ludveck in Part II. Yes, he puts up a suaver persona, but at his core, he's not so different. He's cunning and ruthless - while Jarod killed his troops as they stood, Ludveck let them give up their lives on a lie. It's not just Daein and Begnion where this rot can take hold, but Crimea as well.

6 hours ago, lenticular said:

Agreed. I think the only other FE protagonist who has generated a comparable level of discourse and controversy is Edelgard. I wonder if the two of them have anything in common. Hmmm. Must be the silver hair, I suspect.

Maybe it's that they both have a tall, shadowy henchman who does all their dirty work for them?

7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

she is absolutely one of the more interesting FE protagonists, as evidenced by the fact that she still generates discourse like this 17 years later.

I've figured out the secret to time travel! A way to take us all back by ten years!

Ahem: "Miccy Sue-"

[lenticular]

4 hours ago, Kantoor said:

The thing is Ike also also has largely heroic traits but is imperfect and has things driving him beyond the immediate task of defeating the enemy. He's hotheaded, uncouth, his ability to lead is put under serious scrutiny, occasionally he makes principled decisions that reveal his recklessness and inexperience (such as insulting Begnion's Apostle and Senate in defense of Elincia), and he has the underlying motivating goal of proving himself and living up to his father's greatness.

I do not know where you are getting the idea that Micaiah has neither flaws nor goals. She quite clearly has both.

4 hours ago, Kantoor said:

given the way young Daeins were already characterized by Sothe and Jill in FE9 it's actually strange for that to not be more visible in her character

Given her background (and her age), it's hardly surprising that Micaiah is not a typical representative of Daein youth.

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'm not sure which part you're actually in disagreement with since we seem to be agreeing on all points from what I can see.

You think that "cucked" is an acceptable word to use in polite conversation; I think that it's an insult born of misogyny and toxic masculinity, beloved by 8chan, MRAs, white nationalists, and other similar groups. That's all. We agree on all the Fire Emblem stuff. (And this is wildly off-topic, so I won't be discussing it further here; if you want to do so, either start a new topic or PM me.)

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

...Actually, going further, the same could be said of Duke Ludveck in Part II. Yes, he puts up a suaver persona, but at his core, he's not so different. He's cunning and ruthless - while Jarod killed his troops as they stood, Ludveck let them give up their lives on a lie. It's not just Daein and Begnion where this rot can take hold, but Crimea as well.

Huh. That's an interesting comparison. I do think there is a fairly substantial difference between Ludveck and Jarod, though. Ludveck is callous and indifferent to his troops, and quite willing to spend their lives as a resource. Jarod, on the other hand, seems to take more active pleasure in his cruelty, killing his underlings even when there's really no good reason to do so. Which isn't to say that Ludveck is more morally acceptable, of course. He isn't. But they do feel different to me. I can certainly see the argument for equating them, though. And doing so certainly helps with viewing the war from different perspectives. It's not just that we see heroes from all nations; we also see villains from all nations.

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, lenticular said:

You think that "cucked" is an acceptable word to use in polite conversation; I think that it's an insult born of misogyny and toxic masculinity, beloved by 8chan, MRAs, white nationalists, and other similar groups. That's all. We agree on all the Fire Emblem stuff. (And this is wildly off-topic, so I won't be discussing it further here; if you want to do so, either start a new topic or PM me.)

Wow. That's a far more extreme reaction than I was expecting.

6 minutes ago, lenticular said:

It's not just that we see heroes from all nations; we also see villains from all nations.

Except Galia. Closest we get to a villain there is Skirmr.

Edited July 14 by Jotari

[lenticular]

23 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Except Galia. Closest we get to a villain there is Skirmr.

I've always assumed that Pain and Agony are Gallians, though I suppose that's never actually confirmed. They are definitely beast tribe villains though, at the very least. And the Laguz nations do seem to pretty much be ethnostates, so the distinction between "beast tribe laguz" and "citizen of the nation of Gallia" seems to be quite blurry. Similarly, while we don't see any villains from Phoenicis (that I can recall) we do see bird tribe villains. Though not Hawks, if we want to make that distinction.

[Original Alear]

Given her background (and her age), it's hardly surprising that Micaiah is not a typical representative of Daein youth.

That is true, I wanted to say that, I forgot to, and thank you for saying it. But I will also say that Sothe's comment seems representative mostly of himself. None of the other Dawn Brigade members seem to particularly show it.

Agreed. I think the only other FE protagonist who has generated a comparable level of discourse and controversy is Edelgard. I wonder if the two of them have anything in common. Hmmm. Must be the silver hair, I suspect.

I don't know about the overall level of discourse (I wouldn't know how to quantify it easily), but I do think a lot of other FE protags actually get a lot of discussion. Ike, Hector, Lyn, Alm, Celica as well. I feel like Dimitri and Corrin get more interesting/far ranging views, especially Corrin Conquest because so many people probably had issues playing a game where the hero can feel kind of ineffectual given they're fighting on the more unsympathetic side.

Similarly, while we don't see any villains from Phoenicis (that I can recall) we do see bird tribe villains. Though not Hawks, if we want to make that distinction.

It's true Tibarn is never an antagonist or enemy unit, and the only hawks we fight are feral ones. But in Tibarn we do get a very aggressive guy who might have tried to kill you or take your money prior to Reyson making peace with Begnion in Change of Scenery. I mean, it's been really long and I don't remember any of his specific lines, but I'm pretty sure Phoenicis was practicing piracy on ships like Kilvas and that means Tibarn was probably killing or at least robbing Beorc in revenge for Serenes Forest.

[Jotari]

29 minutes ago, lenticular said:

I've always assumed that Pain and Agony are Gallians, though I suppose that's never actually confirmed. They are definitely beast tribe villains though, at the very least. And the Laguz nations do seem to pretty much be ethnostates, so the distinction between "beast tribe laguz" and "citizen of the nation of Gallia" seems to be quite blurry. Similarly, while we don't see any villains from Phoenicis (that I can recall) we do see bird tribe villains. Though not Hawks, if we want to make that distinction.

I see no reason to assume they are anything but Daein Laguz. We know Laguz live in Daein because we know Daeins (Daeinians? Daeinish? Dutch?) hunt Laguz. And we have branded people from Daein like Pertrine. And, finally, they must have got that feral Laguz somewhere, we know specifically the dragons came from Goldoa, but the beast and birds probably didn't come from Galia since they never got round to actually invading it (I suppose they might have bought them from Begnion, is there any indication there's a connection between the Laguz slave plot line and the feral Laguz? I can't remember specifics there). In any case, we have abundant evidence that the world is not completely and neatly divided into all the beasts being from beast land and all the birds being bird land. And that's good for world building imo. Reality isn't that neatly divided, you will find ethnic minorities in most places (though not quite as oppressed as the Laguz are in Daein!...most of the time).

But, even if assuming Pain and Agony were born in Galia and roved across the continent to the complete other side through hostile nations just to be bandits (probably a great story full of fraternity and close calls only to die unceremoniously to Micaiah), it still wouldn't really fit in the the points people were making about Jarod and Ludveck. As Pain and Agony are certainly not representing Galia in any way and don't represent the aforementioned military rot. As I said initially, the closest we'd get to that is Skirmr, who while not a villain, is a bit of an asshole (if that word is considered appropriate) who would cause a lot of trouble if not reined in by the protagonists.

22 minutes ago, Original Alear said:

I don't know about the overall level of discourse (I wouldn't know how to quantify it easily), but I do think a lot of other FE protags actually get a lot of discussion. Ike, Hector, Lyn, Alm, Celica as well. I feel like Dimitri and Corrin get more interesting/far ranging views, especially Corrin Conquest because so many people probably had issues playing a game where the hero can feel kind of ineffectual given they're fighting on the more unsympathetic side.

I wanted to say this too. Corrin discourse certainly overshadows Micaiah discourse from what I can see, and both are well behind Edelgard discourse (Corrin does also have silver hair too...).

It didn't jump out to me as much as Corrin, but we certainly do see a lot of it with Alm and Celica too. Though for them people tend to be a bit more forgiving and blame the writing of the game more than the characters themselves, maybe because the characters existed before Echoes.

Edited July 14 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, lenticular said:

And the Laguz nations do seem to pretty much be ethnostates, so the distinction between "beast tribe laguz" and "citizen of the nation of Gallia" seems to be quite blurry.

It's an interesting point to me - would, say, Muarim consider himself Gallian? He previously lived as a slave in Begnion, although I'm not sure if he was born there. In his support with Lethe, he treats Gallia as a foreign place, so he's probably never been there as of PoR. And in his ending, he works as an official for Begnion. So I'd say that is his nationality (although he could be "ethnically Gallian").

Anyway, maybe Pain and Agony escaped slavery themselves? Hell, maybe they ate their former master... honestly, fair. It would explain why they're surviving on the margins of society. And we know Daein had laguz slavery, just like Begnion.

2 hours ago, lenticular said:

Similarly, while we don't see any villains from Phoenicis (that I can recall) we do see bird tribe villains. Though not Hawks, if we want to make that distinction.

Phoenicis and Kilvas are treated as distinct nations, up until the end of the game, where they merge. ...For some reason. Anyway, all the "villainous" birds we face are Ravens from Kilvas, so I don't think we can attribute that to Phoenicis.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

wanted to say this too. Corrin discourse certainly overshadows Micaiah discourse from what I can see, and both are well behind Edelgard discourse (Corrin does also have silver hair too...).

People talk more about Fates because more people played Fates, haha.

Anyway, Corrin has Jakob, so I'm 3 for 3 as well.

3 hours ago, lenticular said:

Ludveck is callous and indifferent to his troops, and quite willing to spend their lives as a resource. Jarod, on the other hand, seems to take more active pleasure in his cruelty, killing his underlings even when there's really no good reason to do so.

That's fair, I was kinda riffing at this point. Trying to come up with a way that Parts I and II could bookend each other, beyond: "Rebellion is good! 🙂 Wait, no, rebellion is bad. 🙁" I didn't mean to imply their personality is the same, but rather, that they represent a similar kind of terror.

2 hours ago, Original Alear said:

It's true Tibarn is never an antagonist or enemy unit, and the only hawks we fight are feral ones.

Micaiah's army actually fights non-feral Hawk laguz in III-13. But even there, they're allied with the Greil Mercenaries, making them "the good guys". At least, disregarding any of Part III's nuance.

[Original Alear]

On 7/13/2024 at 9:15 PM, lenticular said:

I've always assumed that Pain and Agony are Gallians, though I suppose that's never actually confirmed. They are definitely beast tribe villains though, at the very least. And the Laguz nations do seem to pretty much be ethnostates, so the distinction between "beast tribe laguz" and "citizen of the nation of Gallia" seems to be quite blurry. Similarly, while we don't see any villains from Phoenicis (that I can recall) we do see bird tribe villains. Though not Hawks, if we want to make that distinction.

I don't think beast tribe laguz and gallia citizen are strongly blurred - I mean, I don't think they're incredibly distinct either, I just think there isn't a lot of material on the subject and it's just fully established. Begnion apparently has a fair number of laguz slaves who I don't think have any firsthand experience with Gallians for the most part, not to mention feral ones. It's true that the Gallians might welcome them with open arms if they did try and repatriate, but there are still differences (see Muarim/Lethe support FE9).