OMG it's a tier list

[Colonel M]

That is a very common sentiment, especially on this list, which also makes debating for Aran almost pointless anyway.

Hm, a roundabout way of saying this best would likely be...

...I'm sorry that Aran sucks?

[_____]

Hm, a roundabout way of saying this best would likely be...

...I'm sorry that Aran sucks?

And the point is missed.

[Colonel M]

And the point is missed.

Not exactly. I know what you're getting at: skipping other units.

[_____]

You're talking about two separate comments there.

[Colonel M]

Then start explaining your point. Haven't we been over Aran an illogical amount of times already?

[_____]

I was merely saying that it's harder to fight for Aran on a semi-democratically run list if most of those who participate in the discussion dislike him. It's just a harmless comment.

Christ, not everything I say is a subtle insult towards your mother.

[Colonel M]

Well then quit talking about my mother.

I am merely stating that it isn't impossible to talk about Aran.

[Anouleth]

So because everyone thinks Aran should go down, this means we're all biased and dislike Aran irrationally? I would have assumed it meant that the tier list was overrating him.

[-Cynthia-]

To be fair, I haven't actually seen much reasoning to put Aran below a specific character yet.

[Soren37]

The people below him are Boyd, Mist(T), and Rolf(T). Boyd is meh, while Mist and Rolf are mostly unused due to no magic swords and Shinon actually being decent this time. Aran provides some Part 1 and Part 3 tanking, but outside of that, he's still not that great.

[_____]

So because everyone thinks Aran should go down, this means we're all biased and dislike Aran irrationally? I would have assumed it meant that the tier list was overrating him.

I didn't say anything like that. I was merely stating that most of you dislike Aran, which isn't untrue.

Once again, not everything I say is some huge insult to the entire list and anybody who has posted in it. Why is everyone so paranoid?

Edited June 28, 2010 by Ninji

[Anouleth]

I didn't say anything like that. I was merely stating that most of you dislike Aran, which isn't untrue.

Once again, not everything I say is some huge insult to the entire list and anybody who has posted in it. Why is everyone so paranoid?

I would say that claiming that we all dislike Aran and it's not possible to argue him fairly is the same thing as claiming we are biased against him. You might not be saying it directly, but you're definitely implying it.

And I don't think anyone really dislikes Aran and wants him to go down because of that. We want him to go down because he is a bad character who does not deserve to be in Upper Mid. I actually quite like Aran and his badass black armour of 70% defense growth, but I still recognise he's a pain to use.

If you made a reasonable and logical argument for Aran > Tauroneo or Aran >>> Edward (note that I'm saying you have to prove that Aran is MUCH better than Edward), then I believe people would accept it and Aran would keep his good position. However, grousing about how it's 'pointless' to try and defend Aran is not going to persuade anyone.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Slowking

[-Cynthia-]

2 tiers between Edward and Aran does seem a bit off.

Edward is king of the world in 1-P and has his uses from 1-1 to 1-3. Edward is also better than Aran on 1-4.

After that it's offense vs. defense. Edward can double (not everything forever, but sometimes), Aran gets doubled once in a while. Aran might grow more Str, but Edward has some tricks to make his offense better (Brave Sword, Killing Edge).

Aran wins Part 3 (Edward maybe wins 3-12), Edward has a better Part 4.

I might pull out some numbers later, but they don't seem so far to me.

Edited June 28, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[_____]

I would say that claiming that we all dislike Aran and it's not possible to argue him fairly is the same thing as claiming we are biased against him. You might not be saying it directly, but you're definitely implying it.

I didn't say it was impossible to argue him fairly. You have to admit that it's harder to argue an unpopular opinion than a popular one.

And I don't think anyone really dislikes Aran and wants him to go down because of that.

Now that, I never said.

If you made a reasonable and logical argument for Aran > Tauroneo or Aran >>> Edward (note that I'm saying you have to prove that Aran is MUCH better than Edward), then I believe people would accept it and Aran would keep his good position. However, grousing about how it's 'pointless' to try and defend Aran is not going to persuade anyone.

But the thing is I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am not arguing a single thing. I merely stated something, and no, it wasn't "MAN I COULD MAKE A GREAT ARAN ARGUMENT FOR TOP TIER IF YOU ARAN-HATING ASSHOLES WEREN'T HOLDING ME DOWN".

[Interceptor]

You know, if you refrained a little more often from making non-contributing smartass remarks, you wouldn't have so many of these 20+ post back-and-forth arguments about nothing, where you painstakingly explain -- with increasing levels of specificity and hyperbole -- exactly why you aren't being a d-bag and how people misunderstand you, as the thread careens off a cliff. Just saying, listen to Jiminy Cricket occasionally, he's not a bad dude.

ON FREAKING TOPIC: I agree that Aran's position over Eddie is dubious, however:

- they are more than a tier apart. That's dangerous. Down this road lies madness, whack-a-mole, and tier disruption. We must close the gap first by doing other comparisons with people closer to them.

- don't we already have about half a dozen unresolved arguments in the air as it is? This isn't FEG, multi-tasking in a monolithic list is harder than visiting houses when you are 3-4HKOed.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Interceptor

[grandjackal]

I have to ask though. It concerns Mist and Marcia, whom were mentioned. Namely, Mist.

I've been hearing lately that Mist's contributions are dubious, since lately it's been shown that the GM are so hardcore they barely need healing from healers (I think that's more to the fact that there are more numerous/more powerful healing items). Which case I would have to ask this.

Even if Aran drops, what are Mist's contributions over him being a decent tank throughout most of his existence (his start being the issue), or Marcia's who's got flying utility which nets us the 2-3 Speedwing, makes her the most mobile unit in 3-9, and once again the flight utility in 3-11?

I'd also say that Paragon can save Marcia for part 3, as I know for a fact she can barely edge out level 13 before the transfer to the GM...Str's still an issue, but at least she'd have 25 AS, still growing fast and with a high speed growth. Could say that having to raise her is the issue, but at least she's been useful during the process.

...That's just me though.

[Soren37]

Mist...well, if what you say is true, and that the GM's don't need a heal save for the random times when the RNG is spiteful, then she's not providing anything. She has to option to attack, but due to magic swords vanishing after PoR, it severely hinders her contributions, as now she has to use her terrifying 25% growth to get decent STR. 22 STR at 20/20 isn't that intimidating. She'll have 42 Atk with a Vague Katti, which means she'll be doing ~40 damage to anything that isn't armoured, while against the armours, she'll deal ~20 damage. Both of those include her double attacks thanks to 34 SPD (gained at 20/17). I guess she's good for Spirit killing (~6 dmg. received), but apart from that, she's not doing too much. Also, 20/20 is over-inflated. She'll be more like 20/10, in which case she won't double, deal ~20 damage to unarmoured and ~10 on armours (40 Atk), and receive 10 damage from the Spirits, and a lot more from the physicals before hand (~25). If Aran's dropped, then Mist needs to be dropped as well, which is going to seriously screw shit up.

[-Cynthia-]

Marcia can't really claim credit for the 2-3 Speedwing since she's like 4HKOing the Halb that hold it and getting 3HKOd back. Better to wait for him to drop down and nearly ORKO him with Geoffrey.

Mist going down is an entirely seperate issue, but it should happen. Rhys too.

Edited June 28, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Narga_Rocks]

To be fair, I haven't actually seen much reasoning to put Aran below a specific character yet.

tch. Agreed. That's precisely the reason why it is incredibly unlikely that I'll be moving Aran anywhere in the near future (assuming Red Fox hasn't decided to wrest back control)

(okay, wrest implies some difficulty involved in getting it back and there won't be, but I like the way the statement sounds)

[RNG Princess]

I kind of agree with Mist's/Rhys's healing being a little dubious since most of your main fighters have crazy move so it is kind of hard having her or Rhys reach Haar and Titania or any fighter on the other side of the map in contrast of Laura and Micaiah(who should go up IMO) their team is more of a stick-together type during most of Part 1.

Also Rafiel saves a lot more turns than Reyson during endgame, howcome that isn't considered?

Edited June 28, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Soren37]

Hell if I know. MOV issues? Although I see that as a fairly negligible excuse. Maybe it's the starting level? Level 12 Rafiel and a Level 15 Reyson. Although if you stick Paragon on him, his EXP issues go away, and you can use BEXP on him as it won't hurt him as much.

Actually, wouldn't BEXP help the herons more than hurt them? I know that most people reserve their BEXP until their units start capping 2 or 3 stats, as you can then bring up their weaker stats. For herons though, don't they just really need SPD and LCK to avoid?

[Fenrir]

2 tiers between Edward and Aran does seem a bit off.

Edward is king of the world in 1-P and has his uses from 1-1 to 1-3. Edward is also better than Aran on 1-4.

After that it's offense vs. defense. Edward can double (not everything forever, but sometimes), Aran gets doubled once in a while. Aran might grow more Str, but Edward has some tricks to make his offense better (Brave Sword, Killing Edge).

Aran wins Part 3 (Edward maybe wins 3-12), Edward has a better Part 4.

I might pull out some numbers later, but they don't seem so far to me.

Wow, you just convinced me Eddy beats aran.(but i friggin hate aran)

Since Int suggested it i decided to. =p

Eddy Vs geoffrey, soren, callil, Kieran and tanith. 3 of these units are CRK meaning there worth is...hard to predict, they make 1-2 chapters much less of a pain in the ass but they don't do to much elsewhere,

Should Kieran ever be deployed in/after 3-11?(assuming he's not crowned)So eddy has 1-P and decent contributions the next few chapters, with the added bonus of a good lategame, edge to eddy?IMO yes

Geoffrey is a bit better than Kieran no(transfers involved) because of his access to the brave lance, which makes him pretty nice on 3-9, and he ORKO's everything on 2-3(except boss?)but, geoffrey doesn't even have accesss to 3-11, 3-E and the first stage of P4 not to mention he is useless on the quickest P4 non-endgame stage. So geoff is litterally 2 stages, does 1-P and ok contributions later in P1(and a nice 3-12?)make enough ground for ed?

Soren...is he ever absolutely helpful? ed > soren, both characters require work and eddy has better P4 while soren does do ok later in P3 it's not good enough imo

Callil, 2-E and 3-9 before joining up with the mercs, on 2-E she can meteor stuff and on 3-9 she does more of the same while her chip damage is more relevant, her 3-11 is probably just chip damage, but you have lots of people to do that, and many more that aren't durable, this is a close call, because compared to the two other CRK her later game doesn't just absolutely blow.

MANITH!!! she has bad bad bad availability but on 3-11 she's got flying advantages, and she also has this in P4 making her an alright addition to the silver army. so is utility better than sheer combat in P4? this is probably the deciding factor.

Now for Aran, i'll compare him to, Boyd, mist(t) rolf(t) and heather.

Boyd, i've already done an arguement for this....look at my previous post here.

mist(t) as someone already pointed out, do GMs even need two healers? i think one is helpful, but the fact there are two hurts both of their values, aran > mist(t)

rolf(t) as much as i dislike rolf, he probably beats aran, he can ORKO paladins on 3-2 with his transfers, aran is nowhere near this helpful on his third stage, he can take an attack but doesn't come close to ORKOing. We have to remember however the game is more than a character's first three stages, Aran is doing more of the same in P1 while Rolf(t) is ORKO even more enemies later on in P3, Aran however has his nice durability in P3, but that's not enough imo to beat rolf and his much much better P4/endgame. Rolf(t) > aran.

oooh heather, if aran drops and it's below heather there will be much heat, I like heather but aran's tankish P3 probably gives him the leg up.

so thats a closer look at eddy and arans spots on the tier list. it's bad comparison with the thought process of someone who just got home from a flight and is realy tired but it IS a thought process XP

EDIT: @ Queen Elincia, reyson is higher than rafiel b/c rafiel has 2 stages before P4, while reyson has 5.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Fenrir

[nflchamp]

Also Rafiel saves a lot more turns than Reyson during endgame, howcome that isn't considered?

Rafiel, at best, saves 5 turns in endgame when compared against Reyson. Probably 3 or less, though, as if the map isn't 1 turned, Rafiel's advantage isn't much. 4-E-1 isn't going to be beaten in 1 turn and 4-E-2 is beaten in 1 turn regardless of heron choice. 4-E-5 is more than likely taking more than a turn as well. Rafiel isn't exactly crushing Reyson in Endgame, though he is better.

[RNG Princess]

This tier seems accurate in my opinion the only things that I don't agree with are Sothe and Oliver's placings in it, I think they should be lower. Sothe is very iffy in Part 3.

Rafiel, at best, saves 5 turns in endgame when compared against Reyson. Probably 3 or less, though, as if the map isn't 1 turned, Rafiel's advantage isn't much. 4-E-1 isn't going to be beaten in 1 turn and 4-E-2 is beaten in 1 turn regardless of heron choice. 4-E-5 is more than likely taking more than a turn as well. Rafiel isn't exactly crushing Reyson in Endgame, though he is better.

Rafiel being at the bottom of High while Leanne/Reyson is a little higher than him seemed unfair to me but I remembered Part 2 and 3 do make her a lot more useful, and they have canto.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Narga_Rocks]

Rafiel being at the bottom of High while Leanne/Reyson is a little higher than him seemed unfair to me but I remembered Part 2 and 3 do make her a lot more useful, and they have canto.

Exactly. Rafiel has 1-8 and 1-E in which he doesn't do a lot. 4-1 he still doesn't do much. Outside 4-E, his best chapter is 4-4. I suppose he cuts turns there, but how much does he really do in the other ones? Leanne is much more important for her pre-4-E chapters. Ignoring transfer units, the gap is only 7 characters.

Perhaps Leanne could drop below Nailah and Rafiel could rise above the hawks, but I still see Leanne > Rafiel.