OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

As dumb as Meg's contributions are in her freebie chapters, in a battle of the stupid, she seems like she's lording over Oliver to me. I think that Oliver's position in Low is a result of not wanting to put a tier 3 unit in the 9th circle of hell, rather than an objective review of his worth.

Do remember that I actually had Oliver in Bottom before Vykan and smash argued him out. He mostly hasn't been touched since. Oliver in Bottom is A-OK with me.

[dondon151]

I just came up with a 6-turn strategy for 1-4 that involves, among other things, a rescue/drop using Meg and a few shoves. As funny as it sounds, I don't think the 6-turn is possible otherwise (without like, super beefed characters).

(But then again, this involves quite literally everyone. Like, even Laura has to perform a shove.)

Edited June 29, 2010 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

As *cough* retarded as it sounds, perhaps Fiona could be used like a ferrybot. Like an inferior Thany, for example. Unit performs an action, Fiona picks them up and carries the unit forward. I dunno, I don't touch RD so I can't really argue anything like it.

[Interceptor]

Do remember that I actually had Oliver in Bottom before Vykan and smash argued him out. He mostly hasn't been touched since. Oliver in Bottom is A-OK with me.

Well, that was before I cared about the tier list, I don't have much overlap with Vykan's tenure on Serenes. That's good to hear, anyway.

I just came up with a 6-turn strategy for 1-4 that involves, among other things, a rescue/drop using Meg and a few shoves. As funny as it sounds, I don't think the 6-turn is possible otherwise (without like, super beefed characters).

(But then again, this involves quite literally everyone. Like, even Laura has to perform a shove.)

Nice ninja edit. I was about to say, I've done that a few times with some careful Enemy Phase shenanigans and crits, but it always resulted in missing a hidden item due to the RNG, so I end up with a 7-8 turn instead.

[Narga_Rocks]

As *cough* retarded as it sounds, perhaps Fiona could be used like a ferrybot. Like an inferior Thany, for example. Unit performs an action, Fiona picks them up and carries the unit forward. I dunno, I don't touch RD so I can't really argue anything like it.

3-12 I don't think needs ferrying. 3-13 uses a bit for me: grabbing the archer on the right to replace with Leo. Others can pull that off, though. 3-6 she can't go into the river anyway. And part 1 she sucks. Well, maybe ferrying Micaiah since she has Canto. I don't know. Anyone bother with Fiona to see if the ability to re-move after picking up Micaiah can do anything to cut back turns?

[Interceptor]

Seems pretty unlikely to me, considering that Fiona gets defeated by ledges and being indoors. It's pretty sad that Micaiah would beat Fiona to the Seize square in both 1-7 and 1-Endgame, if we removed every enemy and made it a straight-up race.

[Narga_Rocks]

Seems pretty unlikely to me, considering that Fiona gets defeated by ledges and being indoors. It's pretty sad that Micaiah would beat Fiona to the Seize square in both 1-7 and 1-Endgame, if we removed every enemy and made it a straight-up race.

Really? Fiona can start closer to the goal and has 6 move to Micaiah's 5. I'd think that Micaiah could run to Fiona, Fiona could pick her up and run towards the LEA, "give" Micaiah to Vika and Vika could fly towards the seize tile and drop Micaiah 5 away. Muarim KOs boss, Micaiah seizes. Not sure how quickly this could happen, but surely at least a turn faster than Micaiah plodding along at 5 move.

[dondon151]

Nice ninja edit. I was about to say, I've done that a few times with some careful Enemy Phase shenanigans and crits, but it always resulted in missing a hidden item due to the RNG, so I end up with a 7-8 turn instead.

This only requires everyone to hit and Sothe to find Master Seal and Beastfoe. You will need 1 spare use on the 1-2 Chest Key to get the Seraph Robe. If you can get Micaiah to Wrath crit on the last turn, you can get 3000G as well (I think), but otherwise you have to pass that up in addition to the Pure Water.

[Anouleth]

Well, we're unlikely even to get her a deployment slot in those chapters. I struggle just to get everyone I actually give a shit about onto the field!

Besides, isn't preferred strategy for 1-E to have Nailah carry her upstairs? The 9 move and superior durability and offense and ability to jump over gaps and ability to equip Pass makes Fiona a teeny bit obsolete, in my mind.

[RNG Princess]

3-12 I don't think needs ferrying. 3-13 uses a bit for me: grabbing the archer on the right to replace with Leo. Others can pull that off, though. 3-6 she can't go into the river anyway. And part 1 she sucks. Well, maybe ferrying Micaiah since she has Canto. I don't know. Anyone bother with Fiona to see if the ability to re-move after picking up Micaiah can do anything to cut back turns?

It doesn't help I tried, in 1-7, and she takes a fighter spot away. Vika is the best choice to ferry around in 1-7, and if you kill the mages blocking the ledges (with Tormod) you can have Mic go down and Vika carry her (well thats what I did) and Jill drop her.

It would help Fiona build a support and she's a better choice than Meg and Maybe Leo and Eddie for that chapter.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Interceptor]

Really? Fiona can start closer to the goal and has 6 move to Micaiah's 5. I'd think that Micaiah could run to Fiona, Fiona could pick her up and run towards the LEA, "give" Micaiah to Vika and Vika could fly towards the seize tile and drop Micaiah 5 away. Muarim KOs boss, Micaiah seizes. Not sure how quickly this could happen, but surely at least a turn faster than Micaiah plodding along at 5 move.

I'm not sure whether this would work, since you have to deal with those two Armors to the right, and the mages on the ledge, and there's only so much asskick that you have available if you're deploying Fiona and Rescuing the best Armor-killer in the army. I can do this chapter in 6 turns by mostly walking, I think that it would require a pretty specific strategy to pull off in five.

This only requires everyone to hit and Sothe to find Master Seal and Beastfoe. You will need 1 spare use on the 1-2 Chest Key to get the Seraph Robe. If you can get Micaiah to Wrath crit on the last turn, you can get 3000G as well (I think), but otherwise you have to pass that up in addition to the Pure Water.

That's cool. I've tried having Sothe go both ways before, but it usually resulted in some tricky combat situations due to having to rely on my scrubs. How many chances does Sothe get, though? He's not getting help from his bio, so he has to make two 80% chances if you have no leeway for second tries.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, we're unlikely even to get her a deployment slot in those chapters. I struggle just to get everyone I actually give a shit about onto the field!

Besides, isn't preferred strategy for 1-E to have Nailah carry her upstairs? The 9 move and superior durability and offense and ability to jump over gaps and ability to equip Pass makes Fiona a teeny bit obsolete, in my mind.

Who said anything about 1-E? I'm talking about 1-7. In 1-E the stairs alternate what side of the room they are. It'd be impossible to save turns with Fiona, there.

[dondon151]

He has 1 chance each. You'll also end up having 2 extra chances with a couple of shovers for the Master Seal, but you'll only get 1 shot at the Beastfoe (since Sothe gets it on turn 6).

The strategy that I used involves Sothe heading south, then counterclockwise around the map. He needs to be shoved a total of 6 times to make it to the top Beastfoe tile by turn 6.

Oh, I guess I should also say that I'm keeping track of Volug's strike level as I play through. He attacked 17 times in 1-5.

Edited June 29, 2010 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

He has 1 chance each. You'll also end up having 2 extra chances with a couple of shovers for the Master Seal, but you'll only get 1 shot at the Beastfoe (since Sothe gets it on turn 6).

The strategy that I used involves Sothe heading south, then counterclockwise around the map. He needs to be shoved a total of 6 times to make it to the top Beastfoe tile by turn 6.

Even if it doesn't always result in 6 turns, Meg would still be giving you a shot at 6 turns. Without her, I'm sure you either don't have that shot or at least it is even more reliant on luck.

But why give up on the pure water? You only get one until 3-7. An extra 5 to 7 res could be quite helpful in 1-8, for example. Not too sure about elsewhere. It's probably not worth sending with Ilyana, but Haar might like it in 3-3.

[dondon151]

You won't have anyone in that section of the map. Also, you can't have anyone lure over that tiger on the left side that starts untransformed, because that's the last enemy that Sothe needs to counterkill on enemy phase.

[Renall]

I'm still of the opinion that Lyre is infinitely worse than Fiona and Meg (and that Meg doesn't even deserve to be in the same sentence), but I suppose a gross utility argument would salvage her a bit more than either of them.

But, like, try using her sometime. I think she's tinking things with an Energy Drop. And cat gauge lol. At least Fiona's shit all the time instead of shit 1/3 the time and anti-useful the other 2/3.

EDIT: And yes I'm aware she's already at the bottom of bottom, but I honestly think there's a tier's difference between Bottom and Lyre.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Renall

[Fenrir]

I'm still of the opinion that Lyre is infinitely worse than Fiona and Meg (and that Meg doesn't even deserve to be in the same sentence), but I suppose a gross utility argument would salvage her a bit more than either of them.

But, like, try using her sometime. I think she's tinking things with an Energy Drop. And cat gauge lol. At least Fiona's shit all the time instead of shit 1/3 the time and anti-useful the other 2/3.

EDIT: And yes I'm aware she's already at the bottom of bottom, but I honestly think there's a tier's difference between Bottom and Lyre.

I agree.

also, why does every arguement somehow end up back with something to do with the bottom tier?

I think eddy should be higher in the tier list.

[Soren37]

If we're using EM or NM, then yes, as Eddie will have enough SPD to avoid attacks and deal reasonable damage. Hard mode? In the first chapter, he's facing 54% hit rates, which are more like 57.22% chances. By the next chapter, he's 2RKO'd, and there's few axe users with a lot of lances. After that, Eddie still has trouble with his durability. Unless you baby him, which is going to drive people insane as Nolan, Jill, Volug, Miccy and Aran are going to want the experience more than Eddie.

[Anouleth]

If we're using EM or NM, then yes, as Eddie will have enough SPD to avoid attacks and deal reasonable damage. Hard mode? In the first chapter, he's facing 54% hit rates, which are more like 57.22% chances. By the next chapter, he's 2RKO'd, and there's few axe users with a lot of lances. After that, Eddie still has trouble with his durability. Unless you baby him, which is going to drive people insane as Nolan, Jill, Volug, Miccy and Aran are going to want the experience more than Eddie.

Yes, I'm sure that Volug desperately desires that 1 EXP he gets from every single enemy in Part 1. Without that EXP, he won't be able to take advantage of his great HP and Luck growths, and he'll suck in Part 3! And we all know how good Aran is, too!

Sarcasm aside, Eddie's durability isn't the problem, it's his unreliable doubling. Take level 10 Edward, with 11 strength. Give him an Iron forge, that's 22mt, with a Leo support that's 23mt. In 1-5, that's a 2HKO on Fighters, Mages, Archers, Myrmidon, a 3HKO on Soldiers. He can even 2HKO mages with a Wind Edge! If he doubled, he'd be dandy... except his average is 15.6. 15 only doubles Mages, and 16 doubles Fighters, 17 doubles Archers and Soldiers. Depending on which side of 15.6 Edward's speed comes down on, his offense can either be on par with Volug or on par with Aran.

I also wouldn't mention 1-P in regards to Edward, ever. Edward may be facing high hit rates, but unless you want to drop him and try a Micaiah solo, you have to live with it.

EDIT

Hmm, checking GJ's playthrough, he has a level 11 Edward going into 1-5. Maybe I'm underrating his speed, but his doubling is still at the mercy of Lady Luck.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Slowking

[Colonel M]

I know this is a terrible question to ask, but in all seriousness:

What is the EXP formula? And can it please, PLEASE be on the OP of this topic? I'd really appreciate it. ;_;

[Soren37]

Power = Level + Class bonus

Battle Exp base = (21 + [enemy's Power - Power]) / 2 + Easy mode bonus

Experience from doing no damage = 1

Experience from damaging enemy = Battle Exp base x Skill coefficient

Experience from defeating enemy = (Battle Exp base + [enemy's Power - Power] + Mode bonus + Boss bonus + Thief bonus) x Skill coefficient

Class bonus: 20 if user is promoted (some classes like Princess Crimea count as promoted), 0 if not

Easy mode bonus: 5 if Easy mode

Skill coefficient: 2 if user has Paragon, 0.7 if user has Blossom, 1 if user has neither

Mode bonus: 30 for Easy mode, 20 for Normal mode, 15 for Hard mode, 10 for Maniac mode

Boss bonus: 30 if enemy is a boss, 40 if enemy is a boss in Easy mode

Thief bonus: 20 if enemy has the Steal skill

It's PoR, but it'll probably work the same for RD. (read I can't find it in the RD section of the site)

[Narga_Rocks]

I think that formula results in too much exp per hit.

simplest way of looking at it for HM is:

level = level (for tier 1)

level = level + 20 (for tier 2)

level = level + 40 (for tier 3)

level = level x 2 (for transformed laguz)

level = level (for untransformed laguz)

deltalevel = (enemy level - player level)

hit exp = 5 + deltalevel/2 (round up) (min 1)

kill exp = 20 + 3 x deltalevel/2 (round up) (min 1)

hence, level 10 attacking level 14 gives:

5 + (14 - 10)/2 = 5 + 2 = 7 exp gained for a hit

20 + 3(14-10)/2 = 20 + 6 = 26 exp gained for a kill

laguz screw up the formula with +5s or something like that, and I'm not sure if your own laguz are hurt beyond the whole "level = level x 2" thing they suffer from when transformed. There may or may not be an additional penalty/bonus for attacking something in a tier below/above you, but at least for tier 2 attacking tier 1 there isn't.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

EDIT

Hmm, checking GJ's playthrough, he has a level 11 Edward going into 1-5. Maybe I'm underrating his speed, but his doubling is still at the mercy of Lady Luck.

Yeah, and what is Aran doing now? According to your stats, if he's 2HKOing without doubling, then that means WITH it, he'd be ORKOing, of which only Sothe and Volug are capable of doing currently.

Besides, you're missing something crucial here in 1-5, that being the ledge. Once you take care of the enemies on the ledge, you can block it and attack everything on the left side. Mages and fighters over there, which a level 11 Eddie would apparently double. Might boost from the ledge (+2), evasion boost form elevation+Nolan support, Eddie could basically mow through that group. Nolan could distract the archers tossing hand axes, and if Eddie gets 17 AS, then it's pretty much gangbusters.

Yet, two tier difference between Eddie and Aran, yet it's Aran who has to deal with being the crap unit when the likes of Zihark/Taur/Jill show up, only getting worse with the arrival of the LEA. How is it that a unit that contributes more (1-P whether you like it or not, can take care of himself in 1-3 going to the right while the rest of the team goes left which pulls resistance from enemies on the right side going to the left so he actually does help clear the way to teh exit for you, is a better unit for 1-4, can be good in 1-5) is two tiers below someone who contributes less (At his start is proven worse than Eddie for 2 chapters, of which right then Zihark/Taur/Jill show up, followed by the LEA, then Nailah/BK so he can't possibly contribute to making chapters go by faster, of which I would also need to feed exp to Aran just like I would with Eddie just to have a defensive unit for Part 3 when I am hardly in short supply of that (Tarvos Beastfoe Nolan, Resolve Volug/Resolve+Earth Supported Eddie or Zihark with Cancel, Thani+Beastslayer Sothe combo, Cantoing Brave Axe Jill, the BK for 3-6 and Taur for the rest, then Aran is immediately dropped for part 4, or has mediocre performance there)? It makes no sense.

How much of Aran being in upper mid is just old arguments meant to appease Smash so he'd shut the hell up about Aran/Neph? How long's it been since anyone's asked what does he actually contribute? Someone brought up that it would be strange that he dropped to Mist/Heather/Marcia's level, and I don't see the problem. Mist's healing is redundant to how powerful healing items are, Heather's stealing doesn't land you too many important stuff but still helps, Marcia though while still needing training at least brings us someone with flight utility with decent combat of which both can help in some form. How is this "not in the same league" as Aran being a downgrade just to grow into redundancy just to be binned soon after?

Eddie can stay in lower mid, I don't care. I just fail to see how Aran is possibly 2 tiers above him.

Though enough about me and Eddie discussions, since I'm sure you're all sick of hearing them from me. To help with the Meg argument, her free deployment does bring the help of making some chapters seem like clockwork. 1-6-1 being the perfect example. A shove can take out the first fighter by shoving someone into their combat range, which allows you to better position Volug. I find that while the shove argument is ridiculous to contribution measurements, Meg's shoving I feel has more impact, as the DB maps tend to be smaller in scale, thus shove has a bigger effect.

[Fenrir]

If we're using EM or NM, then yes, as Eddie will have enough SPD to avoid attacks and deal reasonable damage. Hard mode? In the first chapter, he's facing 54% hit rates, which are more like 57.22% chances. By the next chapter, he's 2RKO'd, and there's few axe users with a lot of lances. After that, Eddie still has trouble with his durability. Unless you baby him, which is going to drive people insane as Nolan, Jill, Volug, Miccy and Aran are going to want the experience more than Eddie.

bold, this is a HM tier list, your point being???

his durability is lacking sure, he's 2RKO'd throughout part 1, but he does alot of ORKOing himself. the main thing is what slowking said with ed.

Yes, I'm sure that Volug desperately desires that 1 EXP he gets from every single enemy in Part 1. Without that EXP, he won't be able to take advantage of his great HP and Luck growths, and he'll suck in Part 3! And we all know how good Aran is, too!

Sarcasm aside, Eddie's durability isn't the problem, it's his unreliable doubling. Take level 10 Edward, with 11 strength. Give him an Iron forge, that's 22mt, with a Leo support that's 23mt. In 1-5, that's a 2HKO on Fighters, Mages, Archers, Myrmidon, a 3HKO on Soldiers. He can even 2HKO mages with a Wind Edge! If he doubled, he'd be dandy... except his average is 15.6. 15 only doubles Mages, and 16 doubles Fighters, 17 doubles Archers and Soldiers. Depending on which side of 15.6 Edward's speed comes down on, his offense can either be on par with Volug or on par with Aran.

I also wouldn't mention 1-P in regards to Edward, ever. Edward may be facing high hit rates, but unless you want to drop him and try a Micaiah solo, you have to live with it.

EDIT

Hmm, checking GJ's playthrough, he has a level 11 Edward going into 1-5. Maybe I'm underrating his speed, but his doubling is still at the mercy of Lady Luck.

hehe, the first part made me laugh. Ed is however lucky you get, but you could fix this with favoritism you might not want too, but people like jill are only 6 levels away and come in later in part 1, edward can get favored early and they still be effective come P3.

Yeah, and what is Aran doing now? According to your stats, if he's 2HKOing without doubling, then that means WITH it, he'd be ORKOing, of which only Sothe and Volug are capable of doing currently.

Besides, you're missing something crucial here in 1-5, that being the ledge. Once you take care of the enemies on the ledge, you can block it and attack everything on the left side. Mages and fighters over there, which a level 11 Eddie would apparently double. Might boost from the ledge (+2), evasion boost form elevation+Nolan support, Eddie could basically mow through that group. Nolan could distract the archers tossing hand axes, and if Eddie gets 17 AS, then it's pretty much gangbusters.

Yet, two tier difference between Eddie and Aran, yet it's Aran who has to deal with being the crap unit when the likes of Zihark/Taur/Jill show up, only getting worse with the arrival of the LEA. How is it that a unit that contributes more (1-P whether you like it or not, can take care of himself in 1-3 going to the right while the rest of the team goes left which pulls resistance from enemies on the right side going to the left so he actually does help clear the way to teh exit for you, is a better unit for 1-4, can be good in 1-5) is two tiers below someone who contributes less (At his start is proven worse than Eddie for 2 chapters, of which right then Zihark/Taur/Jill show up, followed by the LEA, then Nailah/BK so he can't possibly contribute to making chapters go by faster, of which I would also need to feed exp to Aran just like I would with Eddie just to have a defensive unit for Part 3 when I am hardly in short supply of that (Tarvos Beastfoe Nolan, Resolve Volug/Resolve+Earth Supported Eddie or Zihark with Cancel, Thani+Beastslayer Sothe combo, Cantoing Brave Axe Jill, the BK for 3-6 and Taur for the rest, then Aran is immediately dropped for part 4, or has mediocre performance there)? It makes no sense.

How much of Aran being in upper mid is just old arguments meant to appease Smash so he'd shut the hell up about Aran/Neph? How long's it been since anyone's asked what does he actually contribute? Someone brought up that it would be strange that he dropped to Mist/Heather/Marcia's level, and I don't see the problem. Mist's healing is redundant to how powerful healing items are, Heather's stealing doesn't land you too many important stuff but still helps, Marcia though while still needing training at least brings us someone with flight utility with decent combat of which both can help in some form. How is this "not in the same league" as Aran being a downgrade just to grow into redundancy just to be binned soon after?

Eddie can stay in lower mid, I don't care. I just fail to see how Aran is possibly 2 tiers above him.

Though enough about me and Eddie discussions, since I'm sure you're all sick of hearing them from me. To help with the Meg argument, her free deployment does bring the help of making some chapters seem like clockwork. 1-6-1 being the perfect example. A shove can take out the first fighter by shoving someone into their combat range, which allows you to better position Volug. I find that while the shove argument is ridiculous to contribution measurements, Meg's shoving I feel has more impact, as the DB maps tend to be smaller in scale, thus shove has a bigger effect.

underlined, Aran is trained for 3-6, 3-12 and 3-13 correct? while Marcia is a surefire contributer on 2-3, she can pick up a steel great lance or horseslayer. Marcia also is nice on 3-9, chip damage and if she gets a little speed/strength blessed, she might come close to ORKOing a couple enemies(not to mention she can do well on P4 with utility, aran? falls off a cliff. She triangles for endgame). I've applied a similar point with Brom, he helps out on 2-1 and 2-2, 2-1 is an extremely hard stage to do in few stages, and guess what? Brom is your tank there, and it might be impossible to do stage w/o him unless you have neph(t-str, spd, skill, def, hp, and rng blessing) so basically he is NEEDED while aran is never absolutely needed, and many players like myself do not want to see his lance on 3-6/3-12/3-13, I'd rather see tarvos or caladbolg.

Gj made good points to about ed not really losing anything when LEA and zihark/jill/Big T show up because ed can ORKO so they help him because now he has more protection while Aran has more...reason not to use him.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Fenrir

[grandjackal]

Gj made good points to about ed not really losing anything when LEA and zihark/jill/Big T show up because ed can ORKO so they help him because now he has more protection while Aran has more...reason not to use him.

Let's not jump to conclusions here ;;>> Eddie's got problems like almost everyone else when Zihar/Jill/Taur/LEA show up, I'm only arguing that Eddie's contributing nicely BEFORE that point, whereas Aran...Doesn't.