OMG it's a tier list

[Colonel M]

Kieran can only double with a Spd transfer + Speedwings or a Spd proc + Speedwings, and even then he gets the rather slow and sluggish of the Paladins. He's out of everything else's league though.

[Dark Sage]

Neither of them really double though, so it then becomes a competition of who doesn't get doubled or who gets doubled less? I don't think Aran's availability is enough to cancel out Kieran's awesomeness in 2-3 and 3-9, his horse, and axes, especially since Aran's not doing anything really useful with his availability.

[Colonel M]

I think above all else it depends on how much you weigh against Aran taking those resources and his Part 4 lag into consideration. Though that could possibly mean Edward down too.

[Dark Sage]

I think the resources Aran takes just cements Kieran>Aran, because Aran needs a Max might steel forge, Paragon, Beastfoe, Dracoshield, Angelic Robe, and a support just to be mediocre at best in his part 3 maps and to still suck in part 4, while Kieran makes meaningful and noteworthy contributions to quick clears of 2-3 and 3-9 without any input whatsoever. We're talking about needing to be at 17/1, a steel forge, and Beastfoe just to OHKO cats. That's pretty sad.

Edward could possibly move down, though I'm not sure if what Tanith does can quite outweigh the turns he saves in the early Part 1, having never used Tanith seriously before.

[Colonel M]

I guess what I mean is this: During Parts 1 and 3 he's making use of those resources. While there are better recipients, he's still using them slightly better than other units of the team (so think of him like... second string or something). But yeah I don't get his Part 4. It's so weird. 40 Atk w/forged Javelin fails to ORKO, then he needs Paragon to stay put. I guess he could go to Tibarn's route since they don't require as high maintenance units as the other teams do. I guess at that point he's weak enough to be thrown into Resolve easily, but I digress. He's got no real future in Part 4, so he just becomes a "means to an end" kind of character.

I'm not really disagreeing, but no one else is going to take Aran's side of the debate either. 38 Atk with the Brave Lance sucks still during Part 4.

[Dark Sage]

Well if nobody is going to take Aran's side, I think you can drop him below Kieran. Of course maybe we should wait a little longer before deciding.

Although do you think he can stay above Tormod for an existing Part 3? It does require a lot of resources for him to be mediocre and like you said, he's second string with them. Tormod also helps out a ton in his Part 1 chapters where he's ROFL stomping Aran there, but on the other hand, unlike Aran who can be salvageable somewhat in Part 3, you can't fix Tormod's part 4. On the other hand, Aran's part 4 is crap so....

I think he could stand to be above Callil and Soren. The sages in this game are just so blah.

[Colonel M]

Well let's be frank here: Kieran has a grand total of two chapters worth of contributions. Tormod barely gets much further with his 3 (count 1-E and 4-4 as halves). Aran also can do a few things in Part 4 to not be total deadweight (Impale, Resolve) but Tormod and Kieran are also cost-free units to a point. All depends on a tier list angle, but judging for what is going on... Aran looks good under those two. Might question Calil since she makes 3-9 a hell of a lot easier with Meteor.

[Dark Sage]

Callil could also get a better endgame due to Rexflame and speed, but on the other hand, reaching third tier is her main issue and her part 4 is bad until you get Rexflame, so I'm not seeing her part 4 as being much better than Aran's.

On the other hand, I guess she can take Paragon and participate in 3-E and join the Silver or Hawk Army to help make up the difference in levels between her and Aran. I don't think she'll ever double without a crown and Rexflame of course (too lazy to check numbers and I don't even know what level Callil might be at throughout various part 4 maps), but it might be enough to push her part 4 above Aran's, particularly since she makes better use of the crown than Aran (can also use Resolve and gets staves and doubling ability out of the deal).

I dunno. As usual, it's taking up all these resources and still being mediocre to bad even with them, while all Callil needs is Paragon and a Crown. The crown is costly so it might not happen.

Ah well. At least it's easier to get her speed up thanks to BEXP and speed being tied with luck for her highest growth.

[Anouleth]

Aran is only worse than Kieran if you are willing to disregard the entirety of his Part 3 performance as 'not contributing'. Quite frankly, if we're going to disregard Aran's Part 3, we might as well bump Boyd down to lower-mid as well, and while we're at it, Tanith and Oscar and Nephenee and Soren since they're all 'second-string' as well.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Anouleth

[RNG Princess]

I don't understand why Callil is considered better than Soren, not tier wise but as a combat unit, they have the same base speed but he's got more availability.

[Dark Sage]

Aran is only worse than Kieran if you are willing to disregard the entirety of his Part 3 performance as 'not contributing'. Quite frankly, if we're going to disregard Aran's Part 3, we might as well bump Boyd down to lower-mid as well, and while we're at it, Tanith and Oscar and Nephenee and Soren since they're all 'second-string' as well.

You see there's a difference between Aran and Kieran and all the other characters. One, in order for Aran to even have a part 1 that doesn't make me want to slit my wrists, I have to give him Beastfoe, a support, a Dracoshield, a robe, and a forge just so he can OHKO cats, miss tigers, and avoid getting 2HKO'd. We also need to give him Paragon and aggressively level him just so he doesn't completely suck in Part 4 in 3-12. 3-13, he's not doing much of anything since it's Jill's show. The thing is, he needs all those resources just to be mediocre and he needed a lot of leveling in Part 1 to get to that point. He's not really contributing anything in Part 1, so his only use there is to try to gain as much exp as possible.

Now compare that with Kieran who is pretty much essential along with Geoffery for efficient clears of 2-3 and 3-9 and unlike Aran requires no resources to do all this. Even then, Even after all this favoritism to Aran and none to Kieran when they both enter Part 4, Kieran's still got the horse, he's still got the superior weapon type, and he's still doubled by less enemies.

And I admit, I should've explained more about my use of the word second-string and why it's such a crime with Aran. Because there are people who are second-string with resources on their team and still use what they get a lot better than with Aran. Neph needs adept, a critforge, and maybe a shield or robe, and she can become Mia lite. Boyd has a shot at doubling when given a wing and has decent offense, and Oscar can either take BEXP to get his speed up quicker then crown or take a wing and a crown, with either one having . Granted, the speedwing examples do have some massive opportunity costs to them, which is why Boyd and Oscar aren't higher. The thing is, all of them have better Part 4's than Aran and all of them can give stuff back to the team, such as offense or an earth affinity. Aran? Not so much.

I do actually agree with Soren dropping in Lower Mid and maybe Tanith since Soren really is awful throughout the game.

[Anouleth]

One, in order for Aran to even have a part 1 (I assume you mean Part 3) that doesn't make me want to slit my wrists, I have to give him Beastfoe, a support, a Dracoshield, a robe, and a forge just so he can OHKO cats, miss tigers, and avoid getting 2HKO'd.

There is no 'cost' to taking a support, given that Aran has quite a desirable affinity he is actually helping by providing a buffer to say, Nolan's durability.

In addition, forges are not really a problem to take. Basically the only people who don't take forges are Nolan and Volug (even Edward would like a critforge).

Furthermore, you do not have to give him a Dracoshield if he's decently levelled (like, 19/1 or 20/1). I don't think those kinds of levels are out of the question for an efficient playthrough. At the same time, you do not have to give him Beastfoe. One could give him Resolve instead, for instance.

We also need to give him Paragon and aggressively level him just so he doesn't completely suck in Part 4 in 3-12.

So apparently, he's taking Beastfoe and Paragon as well? Obviously, this must be some kind of bizarre, alternate universe Aran who has 40 capacity instead of 30. Regardless, taking *a* skill is not a problem. We are probably not going to have so many characters deployed that Aran can't take a good skill. For example, say we train Volug, Jill, and Aran. Volug takes Beastfoe, Jill takes Paragon, and Aran takes Resolve. Unless you are trying to train four characters, which I think is an extremely unwise idea, Aran can take a good skill with pretty much no cost.

3-13, he's not doing much of anything since it's Jill's show.

Assuming we train Jill, and she ends up good enough to fight Ike. Since apparently we're going so fast that Aran will be underlevelled enough to need a ton of resources, Jill is probably also going to be underlevelled, if we train her at all rather than just Sealing her to 4 turn 1-6-1.

Now compare that with Kieran who is pretty much essential along with Geoffery for efficient clears of 2-3 and 3-9 and unlike Aran requires no resources to do all this.

Well, that's perfectly acceptable. I'm just asking you to extend this kind of logic to other units who don't make any real long-term contributions.

Even then, Even after all this favoritism to Aran and none to Kieran when they both enter Part 4, Kieran's still got the horse, he's still got the superior weapon type, and he's still doubled by less enemies.

Kieran's horse doesn't give better movement in Hawk Army and only gives better movement in Greil Army, which is a poor choice for both of them because the enemies there are quite fast. Aran might have an 'inferior' weapon type, but his higher strength and skill more than make up for it. Aran is only doubled by more enemies if he never sees a drop of BEXP or picks up Paragon in his life.

And I admit, I should've explained more about my use of the word second-string and why it's such a crime with Aran. Because there are people who are second-string with resources on their team and still use what they get a lot better than with Aran. Neph needs adept, a critforge, and maybe a shield or robe, and she can become Mia lite. Boyd has a shot at doubling when given a wing and has decent offense, and Oscar can either take BEXP to get his speed up quicker then crown or take a wing and a crown, with either one having . Granted, the speedwing examples do have some massive opportunity costs to them, which is why Boyd and Oscar aren't higher. The thing is, all of them have better Part 4's than Aran and all of them can give stuff back to the team, such as offense or an earth affinity. Aran? Not so much.

And apparently, Aran being Nolan lite is dramatically worse than Boyd being Gatrie lite or Neph being Mia lite, so as to warrant being a whole two tiers below. Certainly, if you were to apply the same breakneck, absurdly fast pace to Part 3 that you do to Part 1 so that Aran can show up in 3-6 at level 17/1, Boyd would probably not be any good in Part 4.

[Dark Sage]

There is no 'cost' to taking a support, given that Aran has quite a desirable affinity he is actually helping by providing a buffer to say, Nolan's durability.

Fair enough.

In addition, forges are not really a problem to take. Basically the only people who don't take forges are Nolan and Volug (even Edward would like a critforge).

Also fair enough.

Furthermore, you do not have to give him a Dracoshield if he's decently levelled (like, 19/1 or 20/1). I don't think those kinds of levels are out of the question for an efficient playthrough. At the same time, you do not have to give him Beastfoe. One could give him Resolve instead, for instance.

What the hell? I only got Jill and Nolan to level 18 and 19 respectively by the end of part 1 and while I admit I made mistakes in 1-E in terms of turn counts, I got good turncounts everywhere else. I seriously doubt that Aran, who joins in 1-4 at level 7 without the matching either the offense or the durability that Nolan or Jill has (well with Jill, it's the higher move, canto, and better offense that allows her to see more combat). I have no idea how Aran could possibly get to level 19 by the end of part 1 without dragging your feet.

So apparently, he's taking Beastfoe and Paragon as well? Obviously, this must be some kind of bizarre, alternate universe Aran who has 40 capacity instead of 30. Regardless, taking *a* skill is not a problem. We are probably not going to have so many characters deployed that Aran can't take a good skill. For example, say we train Volug, Jill, and Aran. Volug takes Beastfoe, Jill takes Paragon, and Aran takes Resolve. Unless you are trying to train four characters, which I think is an extremely unwise idea, Aran can take a good skill with pretty much no cost.

I should've worded my post better. Of course Aran can only get one skill as a 2nd tier. Now the thing is, he's such a waste of Beastfoe. He can OHKO cats. Ok, fair enough. Now compare that to Volug and Nolan, who consistently ORKO cats and Tigers. Jill can also do the same with a Brave Axe and she has canto and high move to boot. With Paragon, he has to compete with Jill and because you have complete control over Jill's enemy phase and her player phase, she gets so much more out of it with Aran.

He's also a waste of Paragon in 3-6 since it prevents him from having good offense since he can't get Beastfoe. He can use it in 3-12 though. Finally with Resolve, Volug is doritos for Resolve since he can combine it with Wrath or Adept for great effect.

Assuming we train Jill, and she ends up good enough to fight Ike. Since apparently we're going so fast that Aran will be underlevelled enough to need a ton of resources, Jill is probably also going to be underlevelled, if we train her at all rather than just Sealing her to 4 turn 1-6-1.

But you're suggesting that Aran's going to reach 19/1 by part 3, which generally isn't happening unless you play like Smash (going slowly). Even then, he's still getting 2RKO'd by cats and tigers without a the same resource dump and unlike Jill, he doesn't have Canto to help him out.

Well, that's perfectly acceptable. I'm just asking you to extend this kind of logic to other units who don't make any real long-term contributions.

I actually am, which is why I'm in support of Soren dropping and Tanith dropping. I actually wouldn't mind Boyd (N) dropping to Mid too since he's really not very good. But still, at least he consistently 2HKO's stuff so....

Kieran's horse doesn't give better movement in Hawk Army and only gives better movement in Greil Army, which is a poor choice for both of them because the enemies there are quite fast. Aran might have an 'inferior' weapon type, but his higher strength and skill more than make up for it. Aran is only doubled by more enemies if he never sees a drop of BEXP or picks up Paragon in his life.

Aran is a terrible user of BEXP until he starts capping his stats, which is 17/11, which he probably won't reach until Part 4. Even then, he'll need a shitton of BEXP levels since by then, he'll have 19 speed. That's horrible.

And apparently, Aran being Nolan lite is dramatically worse than Boyd being Gatrie lite or Neph being Mia lite, so as to warrant being a whole two tiers below. Certainly, if you were to apply the same breakneck, absurdly fast pace to Part 3 that you do to Part 1 so that Aran can show up in 3-6 at level 17/1, Boyd would probably not be any good in Part 4.

Yes it is actually because we can't slowplay Aran, he needs a ton of resources not to get 2HKO'd, which never happens with Boyd and Nephenee, and he has shit offense on top of it. Not to mention that Boyd at least can 2HKO things consistently if he doesn't double and he doesn't get doubled like Aran does. And as for Nephenee, she's one of the few characters on the GMs who has little to no doubling problems. Thus, taking advantage of this by giving her Adept and a critforge like we do with Mia is logical, since we can get two Adepts for the GMs and she uses it better than everyone else, so of course we're going to give it to her.

[Colonel M]

Here's my actual question. Not that it matters too much for Part 3's performance, but what level is Aran likely hitting by the end of 1-E? When you have a major level deficit against you, and Edward was also plowed with extra BEXP (not to mention Jill (T) helped Anouleth). ...If only we could get a play through that seriously uses Aran.

It'd be nice to know where he can roughly hit during Part 3, just to examine what actual Spd he might have in Part 4. If he can get just a little more... he might not be that bad.

Edited June 18, 2011 by _M_

[Anouleth]

What the hell? I only got Jill and Nolan to level 18 and 19 respectively by the end of part 1 and while I admit I made mistakes in 1-E in terms of turn counts, I got good turncounts everywhere else. I seriously doubt that Aran, who joins in 1-4 at level 7 without the matching either the offense or the durability that Nolan or Jill has (well with Jill, it's the higher move, canto, and better offense that allows her to see more combat). I have no idea how Aran could possibly get to level 19 by the end of part 1 without dragging your feet.

And I got them to higher levels and trained Edward to level 20/1 as well. Maybe I didn't play fast enough, maybe my playthrough is too slow to be called 'efficient'?

I should've worded my post better. Of course Aran can only get one skill as a 2nd tier. Now the thing is, he's such a waste of Beastfoe. He can OHKO cats. Ok, fair enough. Now compare that to Volug and Nolan, who consistently ORKO cats and Tigers. Jill can also do the same with a Brave Axe and she has canto and high move to boot. With Paragon, he has to compete with Jill and because you have complete control over Jill's enemy phase and her player phase, she gets so much more out of it with Aran.

So Jill and one of Nolan/Volug are always going to be in play, 100% of the time? And you seem to concede that Aran has no competition for Resolve, so he can take that.

He's also a waste of Paragon in 3-6 since it prevents him from having good offense since he can't get Beastfoe. He can use it in 3-12 though. Finally with Resolve, Volug is doritos for Resolve since he can combine it with Wrath or Adept for great effect.

Is Volug taking Beastfoe or Resolve? He's not taking both, that's just overkill.

In addition, I could just as easily say that Jill is a waste of Paragon since it stops her from having good offense. Not only does she have accuracy issues, but her strength is significantly lower than Aran's.

But you're suggesting that Aran's going to reach 19/1 by part 3, which generally isn't happening unless you play like Smash (going slowly). Even then, he's still getting 2RKO'd by cats and tigers without a the same resource dump and unlike Jill, he doesn't have Canto to help him out.

He needs a Robe. Or Resolve, since Resolve!Aran won't get doubled by Cats. Jill does have Canto. But when she gets 2RKOed and he doesn't, then clearly he offers his own advantages over her: to whit, that he can engage in combat twice as often as she can.

I actually am, which is why I'm in support of Soren dropping and Tanith dropping. I actually wouldn't mind Boyd (N) dropping to Mid too since he's really not very good. But still, at least he consistently 2HKO's stuff so....

Well, if you want to try and turn this into an Optimal Deployment Only tier list, that's your decision.

Aran is a terrible user of BEXP until he starts capping his stats, which is 17/11, which he probably won't reach until Part 4. Even then, he'll need a shitton of BEXP levels since by then, he'll have 19 speed. That's horrible.

Actually, Aran caps skill and defense at 17/9. And what kind of ridiculously low EXP gain is this? Imagine if we pulled this same shit with Edward or Nolan. You know what a 20/11 Nolan doubles or even 2HKOes in Part 4? Nothing. I'm not kidding when I say that I'd rather have a level 17/11/1 Aran than a 20/11/1 Nolan or even a 17/11/1 Jill. At least Aran would 2HKO.

Yes it is actually because we can't slowplay Aran, he needs a ton of resources not to get 2HKO'd, which never happens with Boyd and Nephenee, and he has shit offense on top of it.

Boyd and Nephenee don't get 2HKOed because they don't fight ridiculous 40 attack Tigers. The list of characters who can reasonably reach 3HKOed by tigers at all in Part 3 is extremely short, basically it's Aran, Nolan, and Volug, and Nolan needs resources, just like Aran does to do so (Nolan also has problems with getting doubled by Cats, like Aran). As it is, his 'shit offense' is exactly what you'd see from Nolan without Beastfoe. Not even mentioning that 30% of the time, you'll get a +mt coin on Aran's Steel forge that will actually allow him to OHKO Tigers after gaining some levels, with Beastfoe, so yes, while he's not as good as Nolan, he's not 'shit'. I might as well call Boyd and Nephenee 'shit' since they're not as good as Ike and Mia. If Aran, who 2HKOes Beorc and doesn't double, has 'shit' offense, then Boyd, who does the same, must also have 'shit' offense, and Nephenee, who 3 or 4HKOes and barely doubles, must also have 'shit' offense.

Not to mention that Boyd at least can 2HKO things consistently if he doesn't double and he doesn't get doubled like Aran does.

A level 17/11 Aran, give him two levels of BEXP for speed, then Crown him. 23AS does not get doubled by anything except SMs in 4-P, 4-1, and 4-2 (who only deal like 3 or 4 damage per hit). He only needs to proc one point of speed to have 24AS, which does not get doubled by non SMs in the remainder of Part 4.

In addition, if Aran having 21 or 22 speed means that he gets doubled in Part 4, this has dire consequences for many other units. If enemies have 25 or 26AS, then Nephenee needs to have 30AS in order to double, which is difficult for her to reach.

And as for Nephenee, she's one of the few characters on the GMs who has little to no doubling problems.

Have you even seen what Nephenee's stats look like coming out of Part 2? She's lucky to hit level 5, which gives her a glorious 16STR/22SPD. So she only doubles Paladins and Sages and Generals.

Thus, taking advantage of this by giving her Adept and a critforge like we do with Mia is logical, since we can get two Adepts for the GMs and she uses it better than everyone else, so of course we're going to give it to her.

Someone who doesn't double and 3HKOes and has awful durability is not going to be my first choice for resources. I'd rather keep Adept for the DB, or even give it to someone like Haar for the off chance he can kill something he doesn't double, rather than give it to Nephenee, since she will kill nothing with it. By the time Nephenee's speed catches up and she doubles, we have other characters who can take Adept, like Ranulf or the Hawks.

[Dark Sage]

And I got them to higher levels and trained Edward to level 20/1 as well. Maybe I didn't play fast enough, maybe my playthrough is too slow to be called 'efficient'?

Possibly, but I'm interested on how you did it actually. I think once I finish getting my transfers ready and complete my HM run, I'll do another to see how Aran levels. Sound good?

So Jill and one of Nolan/Volug are always going to be in play, 100% of the time? And you seem to concede that Aran has no competition for Resolve, so he can take that.

Well it's pretty much retarded to assume that Volug is not going to be in play during the maps he exists in because that's essentially shooting ourselves in the foot. Anyway the best way to deal with Part 3 chapters is to assume we're raising 2 DB members (in this case, Aran and Nolan or Jill). So basically, I'm assuming Volug and one of Jill/Nolan are going to be in play 100% of the time, because there's no reason not to assume that.

Anyway, I never looked into Aran with Resolve, but isn't Volug doritos with it?

Is Volug taking Beastfoe or Resolve? He's not taking both, that's just overkill.

In addition, I could just as easily say that Jill is a waste of Paragon since it stops her from having good offense. Not only does she have accuracy issues, but her strength is significantly lower than Aran's.

Well no. I'm saying Volug shitstomps Aran in using Beastfoe and possibly Resolve. He's not taking both, that's retarded. Whenever I've played, I've given Volug Wrath/Resolve and Nolan Beastfoe.

Jill's easily a better candidate with Paragon because she has better longterm use and she can take a Steel Forge (might want to give it some hit) or a Brave Axe and thanks to Canto, she can fly back and limit her Enemy Phase as much as she wants.

He needs a Robe. Or Resolve, since Resolve!Aran won't get doubled by Cats. Jill does have Canto. But when she gets 2RKOed and he doesn't, then clearly he offers his own advantages over her: to whit, that he can engage in combat twice as often as she can.

Not sure Aran's all that great with Resolve though. It does get him out of being doubled by cats and he can double tigers, but the problem is, without Beastofe, he's not ORKOing anything. He still 3HKO's cats as well and his avoid is nowhere near reliable enough to avoid getting hit with Resolve. But I could be wrong.

Well, if you want to try and turn this into an Optimal Deployment Only tier list, that's your decision.

Actually taking a look at how characters are doing when they're deployed does not mean I want this an Optimal Deployment Only tier list. If that was true, I'd scream for half the list to go into Bottom tier since most of the cast are not optimal deployment.

Actually, Aran caps skill and defense at 17/9. And what kind of ridiculously low EXP gain is this? Imagine if we pulled this same shit with Edward or Nolan. You know what a 20/11 Nolan doubles or even 2HKOes in Part 4? Nothing. I'm not kidding when I say that I'd rather have a level 17/11/1 Aran than a 20/11/1 Nolan or even a 17/11/1 Jill. At least Aran would 2HKO.

I may be wrong in this regard, so tell me what level you expect him to be when he's at Part 4?

Boyd and Nephenee don't get 2HKOed because they don't fight ridiculous 40 attack Tigers. The list of characters who can reasonably reach 3HKOed by tigers at all in Part 3 is extremely short, basically it's Aran, Nolan, and Volug, and Nolan needs resources, just like Aran does to do so (Nolan also has problems with getting doubled by Cats, like Aran). As it is, his 'shit offense' is exactly what you'd see from Nolan without Beastfoe. Not even mentioning that 30% of the time, you'll get a +mt coin on Aran's Steel forge that will actually allow him to OHKO Tigers after gaining some levels, with Beastfoe, so yes, while he's not as good as Nolan, he's not 'shit'. I might as well call Boyd and Nephenee 'shit' since they're not as good as Ike and Mia. If Aran, who 2HKOes Beorc and doesn't double, has 'shit' offense, then Boyd, who does the same, must also have 'shit' offense, and Nephenee, who 3 or 4HKOes and barely doubles, must also have 'shit' offense.

Nice strawman. You're missing the point. Aran with Beastfoe kills Cats, but he misses all the tigers with it which none of the Beastfoe candidates do. Nolan has 37 HP, 13 Def normally when he's at 3-6 right? Tarvos increases this to 17 defense and a shield increases this to 19 while standing on a thicket increases this further to 20. A C support with someone like Aran, Jill, or Nolan increases this to 21 defense, so it's enough to get 3HKO'd by 39 attack tigers. This is without taking a Robe which Aran needs in order not to die to two of those tigers. Not sure if the opportunity cost is great enough for Aran not to take it, so it might not be that big a deal.

Anyway, Aran requires the +1 might coin to OHKO the 48 HP/18 defense tigers and misses the rest. So no, not really.

The thing is with Boyd and Nephenee is that their chapters aren't demanding they OHKO so much, so it's more acceptable for them to not ORKO. Anyway you seem to be forgetting Nephenee is likely to get speed for her BEXP levels and she can take a talisman to make it easier to get speed levels on her BEXP. Perhaps I did go overboard though.

A level 17/11 Aran, give him two levels of BEXP for speed, then Crown him. 23AS does not get doubled by anything except SMs in 4-P, 4-1, and 4-2 (who only deal like 3 or 4 damage per hit). He only needs to proc one point of speed to have 24AS, which does not get doubled by non SMs in the remainder of Part 4.

Intersting.

In addition, if Aran having 21 or 22 speed means that he gets doubled in Part 4, this has dire consequences for many other units. If enemies have 25 or 26AS, then Nephenee needs to have 30AS in order to double, which is difficult for her to reach.

Speed is her highest growth, she caps it, skill, and speed at level 12 and we can slowplay her to get her strength and defense up for Part 4 and then we can crown her to get 29 speed and then we might be able to BEXP a level for her to double all the 25-26 speed enemies. It's utterly foolish to assume it's difficult that Nephenee has a hard time reaching 30 AS.

Have you even seen what Nephenee's stats look like coming out of Part 2? She's lucky to hit level 5, which gives her a glorious 16STR/22SPD. So she only doubles Paladins and Sages and Generals.

BEXP her and she can get some more speed to make it easier for her to double. The only units who's BEXP costs less in actual amount are Rolf and Mist who are not guaranteed to be in play.

Someone who doesn't double and 3HKOes and has awful durability is not going to be my first choice for resources. I'd rather keep Adept for the DB, or even give it to someone like Haar for the off chance he can kill something he doesn't double, rather than give it to Nephenee, since she will kill nothing with it. By the time Nephenee's speed catches up and she doubles, we have other characters who can take Adept, like Ranulf or the Hawks.

This is ridiculous. It's like you're deliberately sandbagging Nephenee out of anything that makes her good just to make Aran look better. I mean, this is something I'd expect out of Smash, not you Anouleth. Ok, maybe that last comment was uncalled for.

On another note, I'm curious on Jill + Beastfoe + Brave Axe is in 3-6.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Sagekitty

[Anouleth]

Possibly, but I'm interested on how you did it actually. I think once I finish getting my transfers ready and complete my HM run, I'll do another to see how Aran levels. Sound good?

Go ahead.

Well it's pretty much retarded to assume that Volug is not going to be in play during the maps he exists in because that's essentially shooting ourselves in the foot. Anyway the best way to deal with Part 3 chapters is to assume we're raising 2 DB members (in this case, Aran and Nolan or Jill). So basically, I'm assuming Volug and one of Jill/Nolan are going to be in play 100% of the time, because there's no reason not to assume that.

While we will definitely use Volug in Part 1, you don't need to use him heavily, like, to get to S Strike.

Anyway, I never looked into Aran with Resolve, but isn't Volug doritos with it?

Not really. If Volug has S Strike, he can OHKO all enemies, and even if he doesn't he still doubles everything. Aran with Resolve can double Tigers, stops getting doubled by Cats (and is actually almost doubling the slower ones). Obviously, Aran is getting much more out of it than Volug does.

Well no. I'm saying Volug shitstomps Aran in using Beastfoe and possibly Resolve. He's not taking both, that's retarded. Whenever I've played, I've given Volug Wrath/Resolve and Nolan Beastfoe.

I covered Resolve above.

Jill's easily a better candidate with Paragon because she has better longterm use and she can take a Steel Forge (might want to give it some hit) or a Brave Axe and thanks to Canto, she can fly back and limit her Enemy Phase as much as she wants.

Aran can also take a Steel forge. Thanks to not having pants durability, he doesn't need to limit his enemy phase exposure as much as her. Canto is a crutch to get around Jill's poor durability, but ultimately being able to run away isn't better than being able to stay on the front line and fight.

Not sure Aran's all that great with Resolve though. It does get him out of being doubled by cats and he can double tigers, but the problem is, without Beastofe, he's not ORKOing anything. He still 3HKO's cats as well and his avoid is nowhere near reliable enough to avoid getting hit with Resolve. But I could be wrong.

Nolan does not ORKO without Beastfoe. Jill does not ORKO without Beastfoe. Zihark does not ORKO without Beastfoe. There aren't a whole lot of characters who can ORKO with Beastfoe: I guess Volug and Edward can use Wrath/Resolve, but Volug only has a certain chance of critting and Edward has durability issues. And Sothe can use Beastkiller, if you can put up with it's accuracy.

Actually taking a look at how characters are doing when they're deployed does not mean I want this an Optimal Deployment Only tier list. If that was true, I'd scream for half the list to go into Bottom tier since most of the cast are not optimal deployment.

Most of the cast are optimal deployment, just not for very long. The only characters that are never optimal deployment are a handful of units like Oliver, Kyza, Lyre, who are never bottom tier scrubs. Rather, my issue is that you are comparing Aran to units like Volug and Nolan and Jill who are great, and when he comes up short, using that to suggest he goes below Geoffrey and Tormod who are in Lower Mid.

I may be wrong in this regard, so tell me what level you expect him to be when he's at Part 4?

I don't know, since I haven't used him, but I don't expect him to be far behind Nolan. Maybe a level behind? I know that I got Edward to level 20/16 at the end of Part 3. Aran obviously won't be that high, but nor do I expect him to be far behind.

Nice strawman. You're missing the point. Aran with Beastfoe kills Cats, but he misses all the tigers with it which none of the Beastfoe candidates do.

Like I said, he has a 30% chance of getting the Tigers with a Coin, and will get them eventually after gaining levels. Any chip damage also puts them in range for him to kill, and we have chip damage units. Missing by 1 or 2 points of damage is not the end of the world.

In addition, there are other units that miss Tigers. Jill, for instance.

Nolan has 37 HP, 13 Def normally when he's at 3-6 right? Tarvos increases this to 17 defense and a shield increases this to 19 while standing on a thicket increases this further to 20. A C support with someone like Aran, Jill, or Nolan increases this to 21 defense, so it's enough to get 3HKO'd by 39 attack tigers. This is without taking a Robe which Aran needs in order not to die to two of those tigers. Not sure if the opportunity cost is great enough for Aran not to take it, so it might not be that big a deal.

Nolan merely takes the Dracoshield, which is arguably more valuable than the Robe that Aran takes.

Even if Nolan could support himself, he would not get +1 defense, and I would certainly expect that he could reach an A by 3-6.

Anyway, Aran requires the +1 might coin to OHKO the 48 HP/18 defense tigers and misses the rest. So no, not really.

Only if he's 16/1.

The thing is with Boyd and Nephenee is that their chapters aren't demanding they OHKO so much

I don't understand this sentence. Boyd and Nephenee don't OHKO. I don't understand what you mean by "their chapters aren't demanding".

, so it's more acceptable for them to not ORKO.

So it's acceptable for Boyd and Nephenee to get shitstomped by their peers and be in upper mid, but Aran being Nolan Lite somehow means he needs to go into Lower Mid tier?

Anyway you seem to be forgetting Nephenee is likely to get speed for her BEXP levels and she can take a talisman to make it easier to get speed levels on her BEXP. Perhaps I did go overboard though.

Aran can also take resources to good effect, including BEXP.

Speed is her highest growth, she caps it, skill, and speed at level 12 and we can slowplay her to get her strength and defense up for Part 4 and then we can crown her to get 29 speed and then we might be able to BEXP a level for her to double all the 25-26 speed enemies. It's utterly foolish to assume it's difficult that Nephenee has a hard time reaching 30 AS.

Almost as foolish as assuming that Aran is getting doubled in Part 4, yet if you assume that resources are so restricted as to come to that pass, then giving Nephenee BEXP in tier 2 and 3 seems pretty unlikely.

This is ridiculous. It's like you're deliberately sandbagging Nephenee out of anything that makes her good just to make Aran look better. I mean, this is something I'd expect out of Smash, not you Anouleth. Ok, maybe that last comment was uncalled for.

And what about you?

I should've worded my post better. Of course Aran can only get one skill as a 2nd tier. Now the thing is, he's such a waste of Beastfoe.

With Paragon, he has to compete with Jill and because you have complete control over Jill's enemy phase and her player phase, she gets so much more out of it with Aran.

He's also a waste of Paragon in 3-6 since it prevents him from having good offense since he can't get Beastfoe.

Finally with Resolve, Volug is doritos for Resolve

But you're suggesting that Aran's going to reach 19/1 by part 3, which generally isn't happening unless you play like Smash (going slowly). Even then, he's still getting 2RKO'd by cats and tigers without a the same resource dump and unlike Jill, he doesn't have Canto to help him out.

Aran is a terrible user of BEXP until he starts capping his stats, which is 17/11, which he probably won't reach until Part 4. Even then, he'll need a shitton of BEXP levels since by then, he'll have 19 speed. That's horrible.

Yes it is actually because we can't slowplay Aran, he needs a ton of resources not to get 2HKO'd, which never happens with Boyd and Nephenee, and he has shit offense on top of it.

List of resources Aran apparently cannot take due to there being "better people":

-BEXP

-A Seraph Robe or Dracoshield

-Enough CEXP to get to level 19/1, or 17/11

-Resolve

-Beastfoe

-Paragon

I don't think that Aran is utterly incomparable to Boyd or Nephenee, nor do I think it's strawmanning or sandbagging to point out that if the same standards were applied across the tier list, that many other characters would have to move down.

On another note, I'm curious on Jill + Beastfoe + Brave Axe is in 3-6.

Let me assuage your curiosity: Jill, Beastfoe, and the Brave Axe will all be in 3-6. Maybe not on top of each other, but they'll be there.

[Zanarkin]

Why is the gap between the Herons so huge? Specially between Reyson and Rafiel.

Sure Reyson might have a few chapters where he is better than Raf, but Raf completely wins Endgame.

Reyson helps in

3-5 - He can helps us 1 turn with a good Haar. Or he can helps us 2 turn. Saves ~1-4 turns

3-8 - While i don't think he is really very necessary here, Reyson helps us five turn this chapter.

3-10 - Help us 5 turn this as well.

4-2 - Safes at the most around 2-3 turns.

4-5 - Helps to easily 1 turn this

Rafiel helps in

1-E - Sure there are ledges, but he helps the army mobilize through the ledges, he can get carried by someone like nailah to the top then let go for him to help in the final area.

4-1 - Army too divided? doubt it, a unit can handle the west while another handles the east (like Nailah), The rest can just go through the middle.

4-4 - A very good chapter to have Rafiel as he helps to clear this chapter quickly before the ever annoying reinforcements.

4-E-1 - Whatever Reyson can do here, Rafiel does 10 times better. Reyson needs a stone (as well as a turn to get started), while Rafiel needs boots/celerity.

4-E-3 - Easily 1 turned with Rafiel.

4-E-4 - Easily 1 turned with Rafiel.

4-E-5 - Again samething with Reyson in 4-E-1, Reyson needs a stone, Rafiel needs nothing (he doesn't need boots/celerty here seeing as the boss is actually very close). Plus he makes it possible to 1 turn.

Rafiel is far too low for what he does, and Reyson is far too high. I think its more like Rafiel > Leanne > Reyson.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Jhen Mohran

[Radiant Dragon]

First off, we have to consider what Reyson can do in Endgame as well - Rafiel isn't the only Endgame Heron. Also, what's your reasoning for Leanne > Reyson?

[Zanarkin]

First off, we have to consider what Reyson can do in Endgame as well - Rafiel isn't the only Endgame Heron. Also, what's your reasoning for Leanne > Reyson?

Reyson is inferior in endgame due to having to wait a turn.

About the same reason for Leanne > Rafiel

[Florete]

Reyson helps in

3-10 - Help us 5 turn this as well.

Reyson may make 4 turns possible on this one.

You also missed 3-E.

Rafiel helps in

4-1 - Army too divided? doubt it, a unit can handle the west while another handles the east (like Nailah), The rest can just go through the middle.

I'd argue Rafiel is completely incompetent here. 3 units can handle it in 5 turns (Ike + Nailah + one more for West, Titania will do) and Rafiel won't help that one bit. I don't know if it can be 4-turned, but if it can, it's unlikely to be due to Rafiel because it would be too hard to defend him.

4-4 - A very good chapter to have Rafiel as he helps to clear this chapter quickly before the ever annoying reinforcements.

This map gives Rafiel similar problems to 1-E. He just isn't mobile enough and some areas are too cramped.

4-E-1 - Whatever Reyson can do here, Rafiel does 10 times better. Reyson needs a stone (as well as a turn to get started), while Rafiel needs boots/celerity.

No. This is the map in 4-E where Reyson wins. There just isn't the right space for Rafiel to make good use of his first turn, and then Reyson's flight + Canto wins it.

4-E-3 - Easily 1 turned with Rafiel.

4-E-4 - Easily 1 turned with Rafiel.

4-E-5 - Again samething with Reyson in 4-E-1, Reyson needs a stone, Rafiel needs nothing (he doesn't need boots/celerty here seeing as the boss is actually very close). Plus he makes it possible to 1 turn.

While this is all true and Rafiel is the better Heron for these maps, it doesn't mean Reyson isn't still helpful.

I stand by Reyson > Rafiel because of pre-Endgame. There's just not enough for Rafiel to do while Reyson makes multiple maps faster. I can see them being in the same tier, though.

Leanne > Reyson.

No. Leanne is even worse than Reyson in Endgame because only two Vigored units probably isn't enough to 1 turn E-3 and E-4.

[Radiant Dragon]

All of the Herons should be in the same tier, in my opinion. They're performances aren't that much different to warrant being split very far apart. Perhaps they could all be right next to each other? How do you decide if someone's better than Leanne but worse than Reyson, anyway?

[Fenrir]

Why is the gap between the Herons so huge? Specially between Reyson and Rafiel.

Sure Reyson might have a few chapters where he is better than Raf, but Raf completely wins Endgame.

Reyson helps in

3-8 - While i don't think he is really very necessary here, Reyson helps us five turn this chapter.

4-2 - Safes at the most around 2-3 turns.

-----------

1-E - Sure there are ledges, but he helps the army mobilize through the ledges, he can get carried by someone like nailah to the top then let go for him to help in the final area.

4-1 - Army too divided? doubt it, a unit can handle the west while another handles the east (like Nailah), The rest can just go through the middle.

It is a route on a big stage, he is very helpful.

2-3 turns, that's pretty damn helpful.

Nailah wasting a turn to carry him? Doesn't sound to practical to me.

actually, you can send ONLY Ike and your completely fine down the middle. 2range, ORKO and durable. no need for others.

Reyson is inferior in endgame due to having to wait a turn.

About the same reason for Leanne > Rafiel

Rafiel is much better endgame, i agree.

But how is leanne better? she gets all of...2-2/2-E/3-11/4-P/4-3 No chance.

EDIT: SHIT FOX BEAT ME TO IT!

Edited July 19, 2011 by Fenrir

[Anouleth]

Over the course of two turns, Leanne and Reyson both vigor 4 times, but Reyson pulls ahead in turn 3 and 4. Without Rafiel, you're not practically 1-turning any of the sections, so Reyson is definitely better than Leanne in Endgame.

Regardless, Rafiel has four chapters of use before Endgame and Reyson has 5. So Reyson does have his own advantages over Rafiel.

[Fenrir]

Over the course of two turns, Leanne and Reyson both vigor 4 times, but Reyson pulls ahead in turn 3 and 4. Without Rafiel, you're not practically 1-turning any of the sections, so Reyson is definitely better than Leanne in Endgame.

Regardless, Rafiel has four chapters of use before Endgame and Reyson has 5. So Reyson does have his own advantages over Rafiel.

I can see Rafiel > Reyson happening, but Raf's 1-8/4-1 are horrible.

Leanne though, you're shitting me rite?