OMG it's a tier list

[dondon151]

I'm not sure what all of these arguments are. I think we're missing the big picture, which is:

Boyd has 1 mov over Gatrie and has a better movement type. Which pretty much makes him automatically better, since their performances otherwise aren't significantly different.

I mean, I don't care if Gatrie doubled every enemy in the game forever; in the context of this game, the disadvantages of being a 6 move armored unit are far too crippling.

Edited July 21, 2011 by dondon151

[Fenrir]

I'm not sure what all of these arguments are. I think we're missing the big picture, which is:

Boyd has 1 mov over Gatrie and has a better movement type. Which pretty much makes him automatically better, since their performances otherwise aren't significantly different.

Dondon is on my side. FUCK YEA!

see guys i told you im rite

Edited July 21, 2011 by Fenrir

[aku chi]

Isn't it possible to give haar a horseslayer to KO lombroso? even though he'll be unable to kill him on enemy turn.

This has nothing to do with Haar doubling bosses: the suggested benefit of crowning Haar in 3-4.

Alternatively, haar gets a wing/crown and needs just 1 level of speed during 3-4 no amazingly farfetched.(if he doesn't get this wing boyd does, and boyd with a wing on 3-2 is demolishing everything for the rest of the game.)

- Considering Haar's 0.3 Spd growth, you can't count on him reaching 27 AS by 3-5, even with both a Speedwings and Master Crown.

- I've been assuming that Boyd (T) gets a Speedwings, because he isn't worth using without it.

the horseslayer and all those other imaginary special lances of yours. Is there a unicorn lance?

While Gatrie can wield every weapon that Boyd can, sans Urvan, Boyd cannot weild weapons such as the Brave Lance, Spear, or Horseslayer that Gatrie can. Advantage: Gatrie.

I'm not sure what all of these arguments are. I think we're missing the big picture, which is:

Boyd has 1 mov over Gatrie and has a better movement type. Which pretty much makes him automatically better, since their performances otherwise aren't significantly different.

I mean, I don't care if Gatrie doubled every enemy in the game forever; in the context of this game, the disadvantages of being a 6 move armored unit are far too crippling.

Is 7 mov really all that much better in the GM chapters? In straight up race chapters (3-2 and 3-4 come to mind), Boyd is going to be just as left behind as Gatrie. In chapters where we might need more firepower (3-8, perhaps), Gatrie can be ferried to the front just as easily as Boyd - and he can be ferried to riskier places thanks to his durability. I'm sure there are some chapters where Boyd's superior mobility is relevant (3-P comes to mind - unfortunately, Boyd (T) doesn't quite have the durability to take advantage of his full movement here), but I don't think they are real game-changers.

Boyd (T)'s superior mobility is an advantage over Gatrie, as is his superior part 4. Perhaps these advantages are enough to offset Gatrie's superior defense and stronger part 3. That was not the original argument. The original argument, which I've been refuting, is that Boyd (T) has "more offense than Gatrie" and "no problem with speed / no problems doubling all the way into endgame".

Edited July 21, 2011 by aku chi

[Junkhead]

Not to be nitpicky, but Rescue/Dropping is very scarce in FE10. Especially regarding Gatrie. ;/

[Radiant Dragon]

Who can Rescue Gatrie, anyway?

[aku chi]

Who can Rescue Gatrie, anyway?

Haar, Titania, Oscar, and the beast laguz. I guess it's notable that the Hawks cannot rescue Gatrie (they can rescue Boyd and most other footsoldiers).

[Fenrir]

- Considering Haar's 0.3 Spd growth, you can't count on him reaching 27 AS by 3-5, even with both a Speedwings and Master Crown.

- I've been assuming that Boyd (T) gets a Speedwings, because he isn't worth using without it.

While Gatrie can wield every weapon that Boyd can, sans Urvan, Boyd cannot weild weapons such as the Brave Lance, Spear, or Horseslayer that Gatrie can. Advantage: Gatrie.

Is 7 mov really all that much better in the GM chapters? In straight up race chapters (3-2 and 3-4 come to mind), Boyd is going to be just as left behind as Gatrie. In chapters where we might need more firepower (3-8, perhaps), Gatrie can be ferried to the front just as easily as Boyd - and he can be ferried to riskier places thanks to his durability. I'm sure there are some chapters where Boyd's superior mobility is relevant (3-P comes to mind - unfortunately, Boyd (T) doesn't quite have the durability to take advantage of his full movement here), but I don't think they are real game-changers.

Boyd(T)'s superior mobility is an advantage over Gatrie, as is his superior part 4. Perhaps these advantages are enough to offset Gatrie's superior defense and stronger part 3. That was not the original argument. The original argument, which I've been refuting, is that Boyd (T) has "more offense than Gatrie" and "no problem with speed / no problems doubling all the way into endgame".

It's a possibility, not likely. But it can happen.

I've never found the spear to helpful, isnt a forged axe better or just as good?(brave lance has already been covered)

Boyd doesn't get left behind as much as Gatrie, notice how he has 7 movement and can get through thicket better.

He also can't be rescued as easy, see below.

Who can Rescue Gatrie, anyway?

nobody comes to mind haha

EDIT: titan and oscar really can pick him up?

Edited July 21, 2011 by Fenrir

[Junkhead]

Lions can.

[Anouleth]

I don't see Gatrie having any problem reaching 14/7 by 4-1 with a crown in 3-4. He has 7 chapters to gain 6 levels (at a rather slow rate, I'll grant). Reaching 15/6 by 4-1 with a crown in 3-8 does seem more difficult (5 levels in 4 chapters). But is a 20/1 Boyd in 4-1 that much more likely without Bexp (13 levels in 11 chapters, granted, at a faster rate)?

The problem is that the levels don't really add up. Gatrie needs to gain a level every chapter, pretty much, which is difficult when you're promoted: against an enemy that Gatrie is 10 levels higher than, which is all of them, pretty much, Gatrie only gains 10CEXP for killing. That's a lot of kills Gatrie needs to get and it often isn't practical in chapters such as 3-4, or 3-5, or 3-7, or 3-11, where Gatrie is handicapped by his movement. It doesn't help that a 14/1 Gatrie is still missing some key doubles starting from 3-5.

Plus, if Gatrie is levelling that fast, what happens to Boyd? Boyd is gaining experience twice as fast. If Gatrie can gain 6 levels over 7 chapters, then how many levels is Boyd going to gain when he gets twice as much exp from the same kill and also doesn't have the same movement issue? 8 or 9? More? Boyd wouldn't need a Crown at all in that situation.

I haven't "based my argument" on Gatrie receiving the 3-3 crown, I've mentioned it (along with Gatrie receiving the 3-6 crown via 3-7) as reasonable possibilities. But I don't think Haar is a very good candidate for the 3-3 crown, anyway. Haar has some room to grow in second tier, where he'd like to Bexp slowplay for Str and Spd. Haar should be able to promote naturally before 3-8, making using an early crown on him wasteful if you're training two of Gatrie, Oscar (T), or Soren (T), IMO. Haar can benefit from the extra skill capacity of third tier in 3-4 (for Celerity and Savior), but that's a pretty small gain.

The assumption generally is that all characters are not transferred. So Oscar T and Soren T do not exist for the purposes of this conversation.

We're comparing Gatrie and Boyd in the totality of their shared availability. I've already agreed that Boyd (T) is more valuable than Gatrie in 4-4 and 4-E. I'm arguing that Boyd (T) doesn't achieve any notable offensive leads until 4-4. If you believe differently: make a counter-argument.

Well, in my experience, it is much easier to get Boyd to the crucial 47ATK benchmark needed to ORKO Generals with a Hand Axe forge in 3-8, which as I remember was crucial to a 4 turn completion. His ORKOing with Hand Axe forges is fairly consistent and is helpful in Part 4 as well. Gatrie is limited by a defensive affinity and a lower strength cap: in order to match 47ATK he needs to be level 15/8, which might as well be on the far side of the moon. However, Boyd reaches 29STR naturally at level 16, and is only a promotion away from having 31STR and 28SPD: if you're concerned about his Part 4, you can always supplement this with BEXP since his HP/SKL are capped and he's one point off capping strength. (That also lets him double Swordmasters, but that's more for shits and giggles than really being useful since there are no important Swordmasters in the remainder of Part 3 that need killing)

4-1 Generals need 51ATK to bring down. Gatrie cannot do this with a Hand Axe forge even if he is capped. Warriors can proc 25AS, so can Gatrie. Another offensive benchmark that is pretty easy for Boyd. Falcoknights are beyond both of them but Boyd OHKOes with a Crossbow (the same applies to Catalena).

Plus, this isn't really about Boyd's offensive leads. This is mainly about Boyd being able to move further than Gatrie. Gatrie might have some minor leads early in Part 3 before Boyd can take advantage of his good defense growth and a support, but aside from his durability he never really has any leads.

[aku chi]

The assumption generally is that all characters are not transferred. So Oscar T and Soren T do not exist for the purposes of this conversation.

Unfortunately for Boyd (T), that assumption makes the competition for an early crown lighter and the competition for a Speedwings heavier.

Well, in my experience, it is much easier to get Boyd to the crucial 47ATK benchmark needed to ORKO Generals with a Hand Axe forge in 3-8, which as I remember was crucial to a 4 turn completion. His ORKOing with Hand Axe forges is fairly consistent and is helpful in Part 4 as well. Gatrie is limited by a defensive affinity and a lower strength cap: in order to match 47ATK he needs to be level 15/8, which might as well be on the far side of the moon. However, Boyd reaches 29STR naturally at level 16, and is only a promotion away from having 31STR and 28SPD

So, you're suggesting that Boyd (T) can get, by 3-8:

- A Speedwings

- 8 levels

- An early Master Crown

- A Hand Axe forge

- A B +Atk Support

I wouldn't describe that as: "much easier". I would describe it as: within the realm of possibility but so unlikely and costly as to be given very little weight.

4-1 Generals need 51ATK to bring down. Gatrie cannot do this with a Hand Axe forge even if he is capped.

Are we talking about your "give every resource in the book" Boyd (T), still? This fictional Boyd (T) that now needs to be 16/6 with an A +Atk support to reach 51ATK with a Hand Axe forge? That's strange, considering you judged it impossible for Gatrie to reach 15/6 by the same point... BTW, Gatrie can pull this off with a +Atk support, not that it's any more realistic than Boyd (T) pulling it off.

Falcoknights are beyond both of them but Boyd OHKOes with a Crossbow (the same applies to Catalena).

I forgot about crossbows. That is a point for Boyd, probably enough to offset Gatrie's advantages from lances (mostly the Horseslayer).

Plus, this isn't really about Boyd's offensive leads. This is mainly about Boyd being able to move further than Gatrie. Gatrie might have some minor leads early in Part 3 before Boyd can take advantage of his good defense growth and a support, but aside from his durability he never really has any leads.

No, this discussion has been about Boyd (T) vs. Gatrie's offense. Boyd's movement advantage is well known, but I'm still not sure how much it benefits Boyd in Part 3. Assuming Gatrie gets an early seal and Boyd (T) doesn't, Gatrie also has temporary leads while he's promoted and Boyd (T) isn't.

You've made some strong points, and I wouldn't argue with Boyd (T) > Gatrie (N) (Gatrie (T) hasn't been considered since my first post). But I want to articulate one more advantage Gatrie has over Boyd (T). Boyd (T) really needs a Speedwings to be particularly useful. Without it, he misses doubling most enemies forever. Gatrie, if denied an early Master Seal - or any resources at all, can still be valuable in the early part 3 chapters (particularly 3-1). Gatrie is more valuable in a low/no-resources scenario, which is relevant if you have other units that can take better advantage of the resources that Boyd (T) and/or Gatrie demand.

[Anouleth]

Unfortunately for Boyd (T), that assumption makes the competition for an early crown lighter and the competition for a Speedwings heavier.

I don't really see how it makes the competition for a Speedwings heavier. I can't really imagine on what planet you'd want to give Oscar or Soren a Speedwing.

So, you're suggesting that Boyd (T) can get, by 3-8:

- A Speedwings

- 8 levels

- An early Master Crown

- A Hand Axe forge

- A B +Atk Support

I wouldn't describe that as: "much easier". I would describe it as: within the realm of possibility but so unlikely and costly as to be given very little weight.

8 levels is not really a problem unless you are basically never using Boyd. It's only one level per chapter, and it's not like he's gaining exp slowly.

In addition, Boyd doesn't need a B +ATK support, he only needs any A support. Which is easy.

Hand Axe forges are not a problem either. Certainly, I would much rather have Boyd use two uses of a moderately expensive weapon and ORKO than Gatrie use three uses of a cheap weapon and take twice as long to kill the same enemy.

Are we talking about your "give every resource in the book" Boyd (T), still? This fictional Boyd (T) that now needs to be 16/6 with an A +Atk support to reach 51ATK with a Hand Axe forge? That's strange, considering you judged it impossible for Gatrie to reach 15/6 by the same point... BTW, Gatrie can pull this off with a +Atk support, not that it's any more realistic than Boyd (T) pulling it off.

Yeah, I messed up there.

I forgot about crossbows. That is a point for Boyd, probably enough to offset Gatrie's advantages from lances (mostly the Horseslayer).

When Boyd or Gatrie could be ORKOing from 2-range, using a more valuable weapon to ORKO with less hit from 1-range seems quite dumb to me. (I say that the Horseslayer is more valuable since it could always be used by someone with inferior offense like Nephenee or Oscar or Tanith).

No, this discussion has been about Boyd (T) vs. Gatrie's offense. Boyd's movement advantage is well known, but I'm still not sure how much it benefits Boyd in Part 3. Assuming Gatrie gets an early seal and Boyd (T) doesn't, Gatrie also has temporary leads while he's promoted and Boyd (T) isn't.

Then the discussion is pointless. What is the point of discussing only a single aspect of a character? We cannot seperate Gatrie's Offense from Gatrie. The reality is that Boyd and Gatrie usually tie offense, but Boyd eventually leads in a few areas and outright wins in Part 4. Boyd always wins movement. The only advantage that Gatrie has is durability, which is temporary since a trained Boyd is durable enough.

You've made some strong points, and I wouldn't argue with Boyd (T) > Gatrie (N) (Gatrie (T) hasn't been considered since my first post). But I want to articulate one more advantage Gatrie has over Boyd (T). Boyd (T) really needs a Speedwings to be particularly useful. Without it, he misses doubling most enemies forever.

Does he? Boyd also has the option of BEXPing his speed in late 2nd tier. Or hell, you can even give him the early crown. Why not? All you get is the same thing as Gatrie with 7 move instead of 6.

Gatrie, if denied an early Master Seal - or any resources at all, can still be valuable in the early part 3 chapters (particularly 3-1).

Gatrie and Boyd are pretty much neck-to neck on their offense in early Part 3. The only real distinction is Gatrie's higher durability and Boyd's higher movement.

Gatrie is more valuable in a low/no-resources scenario, which is relevant if you have other units that can take better advantage of the resources that Boyd (T) and/or Gatrie demand.

If Boyd is denied an early speedwings and Gatrie is denied a Crown, then he is >= to Gatrie:

Level 15 Gatrie:

45HP 27STR 20SKL 23SPD 16.5LUK 27DEF 13RES

Level 14 Boyd w/ a dash of BEXP after HP caps

53HP 28STR 25SKL 23SPD 15.4LUK 18DEF 9RES

And for shits and giggles:

Level 15 Gatrie T

45HP 27STR 22SKL 23SPD 16.5LUK 29DEF 13RES

The difference is that Boyd is actually growing (and also +1 movement). He has HP capped and Skill is a point away from capping. He has a 45% growth. So he can still salvage his speed through BEXP. If the chance of Gatrie having 28 speed in time for Part 4 was slim even with the earliest possible Crown, it is completely vanished now (he would need to gain five levels in four chapters if he takes the 3-7 Crown).

Gatrie T is definitely better than Boyd in the earlygame. However, Boyd is better later in Part 3 and in Part 4. Personally, I would consider Part 4 to be more important than 3-P and 3-1.

I forgot about crossbows. That is a point for Boyd, probably enough to offset Gatrie's advantages from lances (mostly the Horseslayer).

There are no Paladins in 4-1 or 4-4. Nor is it ever really necessary for them to use an effective weapon since both should be capable of 1-rounding Paladins.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Anouleth

[aku chi]

I don't really see how it makes the competition for a Speedwings heavier. I can't really imagine on what planet you'd want to give Oscar or Soren a Speedwing.

I was thinking of Titania vs. Titania (T).

Regarding your 16/1 Boyd (T) ORKOing Generals with a Hand Axe forge in 3-8, the big cost is the Speedwings and Master Crown. I suppose Boyd doesn't need the Speedwings to double Generals with a Hand Axe forge, but it will hurt his doubling prospects against other enemies both before and after 3-8 and make gaining 8 levels harder (it's hard to get kills when you miss a bunch of ORKOs due to lack of doubling). The extra assumptions are just the gravy on a possible, but unlikely entree.

Then the discussion is pointless.

Tell that to Jhen Mohran, who opened him/herself up to this type of discussion with this post and subsequent arguments.

Does he? Boyd also has the option of BEXPing his speed in late 2nd tier. Or hell, you can even give him the early crown. Why not? All you get is the same thing as Gatrie with 7 move instead of 6.

A Boyd (T) without a Speedwings has consistent doubling woes. And an inability to double is a compounding problem because it reduces his opportunity to grab kills, level up, and potentially gain more Speed. If you play him like Gatrie, you'll temporarily benefit from from his tier 3 promotion gains, but then you'll notice that his Spd growth is 0.15 lower and can't be Bexp'd.

If Boyd is denied an early speedwings and Gatrie is denied a Crown, then he is >= to Gatrie:

Level 15 Gatrie:

45HP 27STR 20SKL 23SPD 16.5LUK 27DEF 13RES

Level 14 Boyd w/ a dash of BEXP after HP caps

53HP 28STR 25SKL 23SPD 15.4LUK 18DEF 9RES

And for shits and giggles:

Level 15 Gatrie T

45HP 27STR 22SKL 23SPD 16.5LUK 29DEF 13RES

At which point, neither are worth using. 23 Spd by 3-5 just doesn't cut it. So Gatrie's early-game advantages (namely, durability) are the relevant ones.

Gatrie T is definitely better than Boyd in the earlygame. However, Boyd is better later in Part 3 and in Part 4. Personally, I would consider Part 4 to be more important than 3-P and 3-1.

Gatrie (T), in addition to dominating in the early Part 3 chapters, can be better in the later Part 3 chapters if he gets the 3-3 Crown. He only needs to be at level 12 to cap Str, Spd, and HP at tier 2, which is obviously trivial to reach by 3-3. Then, he has 29 Str and 25 Spd at 3-4 with 0.6 growths in each. Surely you can agree that Gatrie (T), if given the 3-3 Master Crown, should have little trouble reaching level 6 by 4-1, which lets him double most of the map - with a whopping 32 Str that a 20/1 Boyd (T) only matches. Even a Speedwings + early crown Boyd (T) will have trouble gaining any real advantage over Gatrie (T) in Part 3. If Gatrie does ever come up a little short on the AS needed to double, he loves the Bexp: Str, Spd, and Def are his three highest growths. If Gatrie (T) doesn't get the 3-3 Master Crown, he's no more useful than Gatrie (N) outside of early Part 3.

[Fenrir]

No, this discussion has been about Boyd (T) vs. Gatrie's offense. Boyd's movement advantage is well known, but I'm still not sure how much it benefits Boyd in Part 3. Assuming Gatrie gets an early seal and Boyd (T) doesn't, Gatrie also has temporary leads while he's promoted and Boyd (T) isn't.

You've made some strong points, and I wouldn't argue with Boyd (T) > Gatrie (N) (Gatrie (T) hasn't been considered since my first post). But I want to articulate one more advantage Gatrie has over Boyd (T). Boyd (T) really needs a Speedwings to be particularly useful. Without it, he misses doubling most enemies forever. Gatrie, if denied an early Master Seal - or any resources at all, can still be valuable in the early part 3 chapters (particularly 3-1). Gatrie is more valuable in a low/no-resources scenario, which is relevant if you have other units that can take better advantage of the resources that Boyd (T) and/or Gatrie demand.

This is NOT about boyd(t) vs. Gatrie's offense. It's about the overall Boyd(t) vs. Gatrie. And we know gatrie is better with a crown, but he doesn't get the 3-3 crown.

Gatrie is better on 3-1, i see boyd(t) winning every stage after that.

Tell that to Jhen Mohran, who opened him/herself up to this type of discussion with this post and subsequent arguments.

A Boyd (T) without a Speedwings has consistent doubling woes. And an inability to double is a compounding problem because it reduces his opportunity to grab kills, level up, and potentially gain more Speed. If you play him like Gatrie, you'll temporarily benefit from from his tier 3 promotion gains, but then you'll notice that his Spd growth is 0.15 lower and can't be Bexp'd.

Gatrie (T), in addition to dominating in the early Part 3 chapters, can be better in the later Part 3 chapters if he gets the 3-3 Crown. He only needs to be at level 12 to cap Str, Spd, and HP at tier 2, which is obviously trivial to reach by 3-3. Then, he has 29 Str and 25 Spd at 3-4 with 0.6 growths in each. Surely you can agree that Gatrie (T), if given the 3-3 Master Crown, should have little trouble reaching level 6 by 4-1, which lets him double most of the map - with a whopping 32 Str that a 20/1 Boyd (T) only matches. Even a Speedwings + early crown Boyd (T) will have trouble gaining any real advantage over Gatrie (T) in Part 3. If Gatrie does ever come up a little short on the AS needed to double, he loves the Bexp: Str, Spd, and Def are his three highest growths. If Gatrie (T) doesn't get the 3-3 Master Crown, he's no more useful than Gatrie (N) outside of early Part 3.

I thought he was more saying, it's stupid to argue Only the offensive aspects. Boyd has better movement, so with there offense being this close, especially since boyd is the better character come late P3 and P4. Boyd(T)>Gatrie(N)

It's a bit lower growth but his cap is 4 higher, so i think speed advantage still goes to boyd. Hard to argue that.

Gatrie is not Dominating early P3, on 3-1 Titan and Ike are both better. wtf? how does gatrie gain 3 speed levels in 2 actual levels? 20-23speed in 10-12 is what you just said. I still don't see gatrie(t) getting 6 levels as a 3rd tier, I just ran a draft with Titan. I crowned her before 3-2, she was like level 5(maybe 6) at 4-1. & that was when she could just suck up all the kills she wanted.

So what you're saying here is, Boyd(t) >Gatrie(N/T) since really all that transfer does is make him a monster for 3-1.

[Anouleth]

Regarding your 16/1 Boyd (T) ORKOing Generals with a Hand Axe forge in 3-8, the big cost is the Speedwings and Master Crown. I suppose Boyd doesn't need the Speedwings to double Generals with a Hand Axe forge, but it will hurt his doubling prospects against other enemies both before and after 3-8 and make gaining 8 levels harder (it's hard to get kills when you miss a bunch of ORKOs due to lack of doubling). The extra assumptions are just the gravy on a possible, but unlikely entree.

Free gravy, I think. I can't imagine a player refusing to give Boyd a support, or a Hand Axe forge.

A Boyd (T) without a Speedwings has consistent doubling woes. And an inability to double is a compounding problem because it reduces his opportunity to grab kills, level up, and potentially gain more Speed.

Boyd T without Speedwings has practically the same speed as Gatrie. I don't see you complaining about Gatrie's "doubling woes", which persist until he has a Crown.

If you play him like Gatrie, you'll temporarily benefit from from his tier 3 promotion gains, but then you'll notice that his Spd growth is 0.15 lower and can't be Bexp'd.

True, I guess.

At which point, neither are worth using. 23 Spd by 3-5 just doesn't cut it. So Gatrie's early-game advantages (namely, durability) are the relevant ones.

Uh, why? 3-5 is not exactly a difficult chapter to complete: if you go into 3-5 with a 23AS unit and give them up for dead, you are just stupid. Gatrie can always take the 3-7 Crown: Boyd can take BEXP. This seems like a rather pathetic attempt to just ignore the section of the game where Boyd wins.

Gatrie (T), in addition to dominating in the early Part 3 chapters, can be better in the later Part 3 chapters if he gets the 3-3 Crown. He only needs to be at level 12 to cap Str, Spd, and HP at tier 2, which is obviously trivial to reach by 3-3. Then, he has 29 Str and 25 Spd at 3-4 with 0.6 growths in each. Surely you can agree that Gatrie (T), if given the 3-3 Master Crown, should have little trouble reaching level 6 by 4-1, which lets him double most of the map - with a whopping 32 Str that a 20/1 Boyd (T) only matches.

As I said, getting Gatrie 6 levels in 7 chapters is not very easy when he gains 10 exp per kill (and it only gets slower from there) and is not going to see a lot of combat in some of them (such as 3-4, 3-5, 3-7, and 3-11). 5 levels is more reasonable, but I wouldn't call it "little trouble". Certainly, if Gatrie can get 5 levels in 7 chapters when his exp gain is so slow, Boyd gaining 13 levels in 12 chapters is not out of the question.

Even a Speedwings + early crown Boyd (T) will have trouble gaining any real advantage over Gatrie (T) in Part 3. If Gatrie does ever come up a little short on the AS needed to double, he loves the Bexp: Str, Spd, and Def are his three highest growths. If Gatrie (T) doesn't get the 3-3 Master Crown, he's no more useful than Gatrie (N) outside of early Part 3.

After Boyd caps HP (almost immediately) and caps skill quite fast afterwards, then STR/SPD/DEF are his three highest growths.

And Boyd has a real advantage. Speedwing + Crown Boyd ORKOes Generals at 1-2 range, like I pointed out just an hour ago. Is your memory really so bad that you forgot that already? And if you want another, then Boyd also wins mobility.

What exactly is Gatrie winning in this comparison? Durability. He NEVER wins offense, ever. The only time he wins offense is if you give Gatrie a Master Crown and Boyd nothing to fix his speed. In any other situation, Boyd will draw ahead.

[Fenrir]

What exactly is Gatrie winning in this comparison? Durability. He NEVER wins offense, ever. The only time he wins offense is if you give Gatrie a Master Crown and Boyd nothing to fix his speed. In any other situation, Boyd will draw ahead.

I totally agree. This is why i haven't got the easy maintenance bullshit.

[aku chi]

Gatrie is not Dominating early P3, on 3-1 Titan and Ike are both better. wtf? how does gatrie gain 3 speed levels in 2 actual levels? 20-23speed in 10-12 is what you just said.

Gatrie (T) insta-caps Str and needs one proc to cap Spd. Observe:

Ike - Level 11

44 HP, 24 Str, 28 Skl, 23 Spd, 14 Lck, 21 Def, 7 Res

Titania - Level 16

36 HP, 25 Str, 22 Skl, 21 Spd, 19 Lck, 20 Def, 14 Res

Gatrie (T - Str, Skl, Spd, Def) - Level 10

44 HP, 27 Str, 20 Skl, 22 Spd, 15 Lck, 26 Def, 11 Res

Ike doubles more enemies, it's true, but Gatrie has 5 more Atk with the Steel Greatlance. Titania can't match Gatrie's offense until she eats a Speedwings - 3-2 at the earliest.

Boyd T without Speedwings has practically the same speed as Gatrie. I don't see you complaining about Gatrie's "doubling woes", which persist until he has a Crown.

I suppose I should: early Part 3 enemies are unfortunately speedy. That doesn't improve Boyd (T)'s situation - it just makes Gatrie's doubling situation just as bad. If Boyd (T) gets a Speedwings in 3-2 and Gatrie gets a Master Crown in 3-4, Boyd has two (mostly inconsequential) chapters with a Speed lead over Gatrie.

Uh, why? 3-5 is not exactly a difficult chapter to complete: if you go into 3-5 with a 23AS unit and give them up for dead, you are just stupid.

You can do what ever you want in 3-5 and 3-7. But 23/24 AS struggles in 3-8.

Gatrie can always take the 3-7 Crown: Boyd can take BEXP. This seems like a rather pathetic attempt to just ignore the section of the game where Boyd wins.

Is it "a pathetic attempt" in a Jill vs Zihark debate to point out that while Jill ends up better and may have an overall superior contribution if both units are trained and given valuable resources, Zihark is more valuable if neither are given many resources thanks to his better start?

Certainly, if Gatrie can get 5 levels in 7 chapters when his exp gain is so slow, Boyd gaining 13 levels in 12 chapters is not out of the question.

Of course not. They seem equally likely. Bexp can be used if either fall short of their 4-1 benchmarks - it is relatively abundant at this juncture.

What exactly is Gatrie winning in this comparison? Durability. He NEVER wins offense, ever. The only time he wins offense is if you give Gatrie a Master Crown and Boyd nothing to fix his speed. In any other situation, Boyd will draw ahead.

Crowned Gatrie has offensive leads over Speedwings Boyd (T) until Boyd promotes. Fact. The leads are modest if Gatrie gets crowned in 3-8 but more significant if Gatrie gets crowned in 3-4.

[Radiant Dragon]

Is it "a pathetic attempt" in a Jill vs Zihark debate to point out that while Jill ends up better and may have an overall superior contribution if both units are trained and given valuable resources, Zihark is more valuable if neither are given many resources thanks to his better start?

Yes, it is. If we're debating Jill vs. Zihark we're obviously assuming we're training them and giving them the resources such as CEXP, BEXP, skills, statboosters, etc that they need. We can't just say Zihark's better than Jill if we don't use either of them, so Zihark wins.

Of course there's an opportunity cost to taking resources (namely, taking them away from another unit), but resources are there to be used. If a resource can make a large difference in a unit's performance, and them using it doesn't detriment the rest of the team too much, then they should be considered for the resource.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Fenrir]

Gatrie (T) insta-caps Str and needs one proc to cap Spd. Observe:

I suppose I should: early Part 3 enemies are unfortunately speedy. That doesn't improve Boyd (T)'s situation - it just makes Gatrie's doubling situation just as bad. If Boyd (T) gets a Speedwings in 3-2 and Gatrie gets a Master Crown in 3-4, Boyd has two (mostly inconsequential) chapters with a Speed lead over Gatrie.

You can do what ever you want in 3-5 and 3-7. But 23/24 AS struggles in 3-8.

Is it "a pathetic attempt" in a Jill vs Zihark debate to point out that while Jill ends up better and may have an overall superior contribution if both units are trained and given valuable resources, Zihark is more valuable if neither are given many resources thanks to his better start?

Of course not. They seem equally likely. Bexp can be used if either fall short of their 4-1 benchmarks - it is relatively abundant at this juncture.

Crowned Gatrie has offensive leads over Speedwings Boyd (T) until Boyd promotes. Fact. The leads are modest if Gatrie gets crowned in 3-8 but more significant if Gatrie gets crowned in 3-4.

I thought you were talking about Gatrie(N)

Gatrie not being that great early on, this hurts your argument. That's where he needs to rape face to gain on boyd's P4.

Boyd should be able to pick up alot more exp in 3-7 than Gatrie is, since Gatrie needs to move his armored ass around.

It is a pathetic attempt to even argue that Zihark is better than jill.

I like boyd's chances of 20/1 over Gatries of 15/6. Look at what i said about Titan.

Of course crowned Gatrie is better, he's fucking 3rd tier. If he wasn't better there would be a major problem.

[Radiant Dragon]

It is a pathetic attempt to even argue that Zihark is better than jill.

I'm not so sure about that, but then again I'm pretty prejudiced against Jill (although she's turned out very good in my latest draft playthrough).

[aku chi]

Yes, it is. If we're debating Jill vs. Zihark we're obviously assuming we're training them and giving them the resources such as CEXP, BEXP, skills, statboosters, etc that they need. We can't just say Zihark's better than Jill if we don't use either of them, so Zihark wins.

The argument is that Zihark is more valuable than Jill if given low/no resources. While Jill is barely worth using in this situation, Zihark is - at least for a few chapters. It can only be beneficial when a unit can be useful with a variety of different resource bundles. To ignore that unit's versatility does him/her a disservice in a comparison with a unit that needs resources to be worth using. Obviously, this no/low resources analysis isn't comprehensive, but neither is the analysis when all units get exactly what they want. Both situations are possible and should be considered.

BTW, I think the current tier list has it right with Jill(T) > Zihark(T) > Zihark > Jill.

Edited July 21, 2011 by aku chi

[Radiant Dragon]

The argument is that Zihark is more valuable than Jill if given low/no resources. While Jill is barely worth using in this situation, Zihark is - at least for a few chapters. It can only be beneficial when a unit can be useful with a variety of different resource bundles. To ignore that unit's versatility does him/her a disservice in a comparison with a unit that needs resources to be worth using. Obviously, this no/low resources analysis isn't comprehensive, but neither is the analysis when all units get exactly what they want. Both situations are possible and should be considered.

Except the situation where we hoard all of our resources for no reason other than to prove a point isn't realistic at all, so it's irrelevant.

Edit: I have no opinion on Jill and Zihark's relative positions to one another.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Fenrir]

I'm not so sure about that, but then again I'm pretty prejudiced against Jill (although she's turned out very good in my latest draft playthrough).

How is Jill below micaiah and Naesala? I guess to argue her against Zihark she needs to be close. tibarn/BK/Naesala/Miccy none of them are better.

Naesala is worse than her on his only two stages if she's been trained, don't see how this is an argument.

Miccy may get 1-P through 1-5 but she really only helps in the first 3 of those.(this is an HM list.)

BK, His P1 is undeniably amazing. But Jill is the best DB unit in 3-12 and 3-13, so isn't she better? It's hard to compare 3 stages to 14 but, I'm going with +11.

If Jill was ever on the hawk army she'd do better than Tibarn, don't see any way around that. & what she's doing on silver is more important than what he's doing.

If anybody could explain why these characters are all higher, thank you.

[aku chi]

Except the situation where we hoard all of our resources for no reason other than to prove a point isn't realistic at all, so it's irrelevant.

So it isn't realistic to use our resources on Volug and/or Nolan instead of Jill and Zihark? And it isn't realistic to use our resources on Haar, Titania, and Oscar instead of Gatrie and Boyd (T)? I understand that this tier list has been making strong resource assumptions for a while now, but it's a bad habit I'd like to break, if possible.

Naesala is worse than [Jill] on his only two stages if she's been trained, don't see how this is an argument.

...

If Jill was ever on the hawk army she'd do better than Tibarn, don't see any way around that. & what she's doing on silver is more important than what he's doing.

LOL

[Radiant Dragon]

So it isn't realistic to use our resources on Volug and/or Nolan instead of Jill and Zihark? And it isn't realistic to use our resources on Haar, Titania, and Oscar instead of Gatrie and Boyd (T)? I understand that this tier list has been making strong resource assumptions for a while now, but it's a bad habit I'd like to break, if possible.

Then we'd be using Volug and/or Nolan, instead of Jill and/or Zihark. It makes no sense to give Nolan all of our resources and then use Jill instead.

[aku chi]

Then we'd be using Volug and/or Nolan, instead of Jill and/or Zihark. It makes no sense to give Nolan all of our resources and then use Jill instead.

Exactly! But it does make sense to give Nolan all our resources and use Zihark as well.