OMG it's a tier list

[Anouleth]

That 'slightly' actually means something, though, because Oscar is usually just barely too low to double the majority of enemies. Even if Nephenee has only 1 or 2 more Spd, that's probably the difference between doubling and not doubling.

I don't think it is ever the case in Part 3 that the majority of enemies share the same speed. It's true that he often flubs against Halberdiers and Snipers and Warriors, but it is rare that between them they make up the majority of a map and even among them there is some variation.

Point: missed. It's how much EXP/BEXP she requires to become an adequate combat unit. You don't even specify a time here; when exactly is she not at Oscar's base level? At the same time he is? Well, duh. But it's not like anyone contested Neph getting the 2-E BEXP dump.

I don't know, I have never used Nephenee seriously. And it probably depends on how long you take in Part 2.

[RNG Princess]

What about Haar or Elincia don't they want P2's BEXP?

[-Cynthia-]

I'd actually contest the Nephenee getting all of the 2-E BEXP, Haar can get some levelups in Str and has a decent chance for another point of Spd if we give it to him instead. Haar's a cool guy already and all, but a little extra offense never hurts (makes it so he can switch to Hand Axes, or not use forges and can ORKO Generals without a Hammer etc etc.)

[PKL]

That's weird. I always notice the movement penalty in 4-4 but not 3-8. Oscar seemed to move just fine.

[Fenrir]

I didn't quite say that right before; Oscar can get a Drop, but it's not free (like Wings essentially are for Titania and Haar). This is one of those situations where if you're going to give Oscar a Drop, I think it follows that Neph gets one, too.

I don't think this works so great, it's more one or the other. unless you can convince me that they both deserve it instead of Ulki.

I already said it. They can't handle everything, and what they can't handle generally doesn't need Canto and 9 Move to handle. The point here is that horse is not auto-win, especially when your combat is as lacking as Oscar's. If he could pull off even close to the same stuff Titania and Haar do, he'd already be much higher.

My point is that with Oscar we can kill everything on the maps faster, and with his drop all he's really lacking is speed. Just imagine blitzing stages with Titan/Oscar/Haar.

I just mean that it would be helpful since he knows the works of this better than I do, but he probably got bored after Smash got banned.

yes i know, but who's to say he wouldn't agree with Oscar > Neph.

That 'slightly' actually means something, though, because Oscar is usually just barely too low to double the majority of enemies. Even if Nephenee has only 1 or 2 more Spd, that's probably the difference between doubling and not doubling.

This is true, but it's similar to the Boyd situation. He'll get his speed going with 60% growth, he just needs a little time. & neph is actually struggling to ORKO early in P3.

Point: missed. It's how much EXP/BEXP she requires to become an adequate combat unit. You don't even specify a time here; when exactly is she not at Oscar's base level? At the same time he is? Well, duh. But it's not like anyone contested Neph getting the 2-E BEXP dump.

We could not give any of it to neph. I'm sure plenty of units could put it to good use.

And yeah, the video's there for absolute proof now, so I don't need to point out how 3-8 is definitely indoors.

Oscar's high movement is still helping on 3-2/3-3/3-10/3-11/3-E/4-1

EDIT: It looks like alot of people don't like the 2-E idea. & she requires babying on 2-2 as well as this massive bexp dump. Her cost is definitly much higher than Oscar's, and where exactly is it paying off?

Edited July 25, 2011 by Fenrir

[Radiant Dragon]

Makes me wonder if 1-4 and 2-3 are also indoors. Probably are, but we don't have a way to check.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Xander]

1-4 is indoors 2-3 is not.

[Fenrir]

Makes me wonder if 1-4 and 2-3 are also indoors. Probably are, but we don't have a way to check.

2-2? Yeah, i'd be curious as well.

[Radiant Dragon]

1-4 is indoors 2-3 is not.

Really? Huh, that's interesting. 2-2 is very similar to 3-8, so I would've assumed it'd work the same.

Edit: Yeah, I meant 2-2. Sorry about that.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Florete]

I don't think it is ever the case in Part 3 that the majority of enemies share the same speed. It's true that he often flubs against Halberdiers and Snipers and Warriors, but it is rare that between them they make up the majority of a map and even among them there is some variation.

Um, it is. Yeah, Halberdiers, Snipers, Warriors...all generally share the same Spd and are often at least half of a map. Generals are slower but Oscar has the same problems with them as Neph, and neither have problems against Sages and Bishops.

I don't think this works so great, it's more one or the other. unless you can convince me that they both deserve it instead of Ulki.

I was actually assuming they weren't being played on the same team, so Ulki still gets one.

My point is that with Oscar we can kill everything on the maps faster, and with his drop all he's really lacking is speed. Just imagine blitzing stages with Titan/Oscar/Haar.

And my point is Oscar is not making things any faster than Neph (actually, I'd say he makes it slower since I'm for Neph > Oscar) due to Titania and Haar doing the 9 Move + Canto dirty work. Lacking in Spd is kind of a problem.

yes i know, but who's to say he wouldn't agree with Oscar > Neph.

Because I'm pretty much using the same points he's always used in the past on this very subject minus the part where I haven't brought up a crit forge.

This is true, but it's similar to the Boyd situation. He'll get his speed going with 60% growth, he just needs a little time. & neph is actually struggling to ORKO early in P3.

Oscar needs more than a 'little' time owing to his base level of 12. If he gets even slightly screwed, he can usually say goodbye to doubling most enemies for a majority of the game.

We could not give any of it to neph. I'm sure plenty of units could put it to good use.

I only brought it up because I found it funny no one contested it, but that's actually not something I would advocate personally. I think she can get some of it, but dumping all of it on her when Haar is there is probably not a good idea.

Oscar's high movement is still helping on 3-2/3-3/3-10/3-11/3-E/4-1

3-2: No. You draw the boss in, you kill him. Haar can do this on his own, and with Titania to add anyone else just does self improvement.

3-3: Eh, arguable. Haar is the reason it's so fast, and he should be leaving behind the ones that just about any unit can get to before he's done his duty. Iirc, it takes him a minimum of 5 turns to get the very northern and north eastern supplies, Celerity or not.

3-10: You need two units to handle the north east enemies by the end of turn 5. Guess who those are? All other enemies are close enough for a General to handle, much less Nephenee.

3-11: Uh, lol? This is where Fliers rule, not horses. You'll be wanting Haar, the Hawks, and possibly Marcia/Sigrun/Tanith to be clearing this for you.

3-E: Given.

4-1: Uh, not really. The design of the map makes it easy for any unit to be of good help. I don't know how reliable a 4 turn clear is, but this map can be cleared in 5 turns with just 3 competent combat units. Oscar really has no advantage here.

EDIT: It looks like alot of people don't like the 2-E idea. & she requires babying on 2-2 as well as this massive bexp dump. Her cost is definitly much higher than Oscar's, and where exactly is it paying off?

"Babying" to the effect that you give her kills where it doesn't matter who takes them (read: not slowing us down at all/just being smart) and I'm not fond of the 2-E idea myself, nor have I been relying on it.

[Fenrir]

EDIT: I think your totally passing over Oscar's 2 movement advantage due to haar/titan. Just because most of the strategies your familiar with require them as the only 9moves doesn't mean better strategies can't be made with 3 of them.

I was actually assuming they weren't being played on the same team, so Ulki still gets one.

alright good, then we're on the same page.

Because I'm pretty much using the same points he's always used in the past on this very subject minus the part where I haven't brought up a crit forge.

No you haven't, but isn't being able to use bows worth something

Oscar needs more than a 'little' time owing to his base level of 12. If he gets even slightly screwed, he can usually say goodbye to doubling most enemies for a majority of the game.

It's only 4-5 levels.

I only brought it up because I found it funny no one contested it, but that's actually not something I would advocate personally. I think she can get some of it, but dumping all of it on her when Haar is there is probably not a good idea.

It's not a good idea at all, and what if we save it for 3-11 Tanith? she loves it as well.

3-2: No. You draw the boss in, you kill him. Haar can do this on his own, and with Titania to add anyone

else just does self improvement.

your probly right, there even here.

3-3: Eh, arguable. Haar is the reason it's so fast, and he should be leaving behind the ones that just about any unit can get to before he's done his duty. Iirc, it takes him a minimum of 5 turns to get the

very northern and north eastern supplies, Celerity or not.

I still think Oscar can speed this up, it's a big map and shit needs to get burned quick.

3-10: You need two units to handle the north east enemies by the end of turn 5. Guess who those are? All other enemies are close enough for a General to handle, much less Nephenee.

all those guys in the South east corner are easier to reach with Oscar though.

3-11: Uh, lol? This is where Fliers rule, not horses. You'll be wanting Haar, the Hawks, and possibly Marcia/Sigrun/Tanith to be clearing this for you.

Well, it was worth a shot.

3-E: Given.

4-1: Uh, not really. The design of the map makes it easy for any unit to be of good help. I don't know how reliable a 4 turn clear is, but this map can be cleared in 5 turns with just 3 competent combat units. Oscar really has no advantage here.

"Babying" to the effect that you give her kills where it doesn't matter who takes them (read: not slowing us down at all/just being smart) and I'm not fond of the 2-E idea myself, nor have I been relying on it.

After 2-1 she's actually a pretty bad unit. no doubling, doesn't hit very hard, and isn't all that durable. Every time i've used her she's needed babying.

Well she needs the Bexp or babyed CEXP to catch up to Oscar.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Fenrir

[aku chi]

I didn't quite say that right before; Oscar can get a Drop, but it's not free (like Wings essentially are for Titania and Haar).

Pardon? The economic principle of opportunity cost indicates that the cost of Titania and Haar getting the 1-E and 2-3 Speedwings is precisely equal to the benefits of giving the Speedwings the the next best users. Those Speedwings are far from valueless: many, many units would like the extra Speed for doubling.

Concerning Oscar v Nephenee, I can't figure out if people are comparing their transfered or non-transfered variants. I think that in both cases, Oscar is slightly more valuable than Nephenee outside of their forced chapters. Nephenee, however, is more valuable than Oscar in their forced chapters (almost entirely due to 2-1). Because neither Oscar (N) nor Nepehenee (N) are terribly impressive outside of their forced chapters, Nephenee (N) > Oscar (N) might make sense whereas Oscar (T) > Nephenee (T) might not.

[Fenrir]

Pardon? The economic principle of opportunity cost indicates that the cost of Titania and Haar getting the 1-E and 2-3 Speedwings is precisely equal to the benefits of giving the Speedwings the the next best users. Those Speedwings are far from valueless: many, many units would like the extra Speed for doubling.

Concerning Oscar v Nephenee, I can't figure out if people are comparing their transfered or non-transfered variants. I think that in both cases, Oscar is slightly more valuable than Nephenee outside of their forced chapters. Nephenee, however, is more valuable than Oscar in their forced chapters (almost entirely due to 2-1). Because neither Oscar (N) nor Nepehenee (N) are terribly impressive outside of their forced chapters, Nephenee (N) > Oscar (N) might make sense whereas Oscar (T) > Nephenee (T) might not.

Everyone wants a wing, but titan/haar are the best. no arguing it.

It's non-transfered now, i think everyone agrees that Oscar(t)>neph(n/t)

Oscar(t) > Mia never got settled however

[Radiant Dragon]

Everyone wants a wing, but titan/haar are the best. no arguing it.

Just because they're the best, doesn't mean that they don't take it away from other units. Therefore, it's not free.

It's non-transfered now, i think everyone agrees that Oscar(t)>neph(n/t)

I must have misread Red Fox's last ~5 or so posts, then.

[Fenrir]

Just because they're the best, doesn't mean that they don't take it away from other units. Therefore, it's not free.

I must have misread Red Fox's last ~5 or so posts, then.

It's as close as you can get to free. there's not anybody who I'd even think about giving it to.

[Radiant Dragon]

It's as close as you can get to free. there's not anybody who I'd even think about giving it to.

As close as you can get to free would be Miledy getting a pair of Boots or two after Chapter 21 in FE6. We only get 2 Speedwings before 3-9, and plenty of units that want them. Off the top of my head, there's Boyd(T) and Ike(N), and maybe Aran, Mordecai or Sigrun.

[Fenrir]

As close as you can get to free would be Miledy getting a pair of Boots or two after Chapter 21 in FE6. We only get 2 Speedwings before 3-9, and plenty of units that want them. Off the top of my head, there's Boyd(T) and Ike(N), and maybe Aran, Mordecai or Sigrun.

your going to give it to...

Boyd(t) over titan. really?

Ike, who unless he gets majorly majorly screwed is doubling the entire game. 3-9 is his emergency wing.

Aran... this is an HM list lulz

Mordy, who needs olivi grass and levels slowly. He can't even double after you give him the wing...

& Sigrun, who just sucks balls and joins AFTER 3-9.

[aku chi]

It's as close as you can get to free. there's not anybody who I'd even think about giving it to.

I don't think you understand the principle of opportunity cost. Let us suppose that Oscar is the third best candidate for one of the 1-F or 2-3 Speedwings. By using the Speedwings on Oscar, our team benefits from Oscar being able to double a great many more enemies than he could without it. That benefit is forgone when we use the Speedwings on Titania or Haar. That benefit forgone is the opportunity cost of using the Speedwings on Titania or Haar. The benefit of giving the Speedwings to Titania or Haar is larger that the benefit of giving it to Oscar (so our assumptions go), so it is optimal to give the Speedwings to them, but that doesn't make them "free" in any meaningful sense.

Edit: While we're discussing it: Oscar, Nolan, Boyd (T), Soren (T), and Kyza can all benefit greatly from those Speedwings. Skrimir and Tanith also benefit greatly from Speedwings, and we'd need to save one of these if we want to give Speedwings to both of them.

Edited July 25, 2011 by aku chi

[Fenrir]

Oscar is the third best candidate for one of the 1-F or 2-3 Speedwings.

That's all i need to see to know he's not getting them.

[Florete]

Yeah, saying it was "free" was a mistake on my part. I know it's not technically free for either, it's usually just useful to the point where their cost of taking it is essentially wiped clean.

[Radiant Dragon]

your going to give it to... [rant]

Why not? They all benefit from a Speedwing, after all. Do they use it as well as Titania or Haar? Of course not, but that's why they're higher on the list than the units I listed. Does that mean units who use a resource best always get them, and are always in play? No, because then we'd only have 2 tiers: Used, and not used.

[Fenrir]

Why not? They all benefit from a Speedwing, after all. Do they use it as well as Titania or Haar? Of course not, but that's why they're higher on the list than the units I listed. Does that mean units who use a resource best always get them, and are always in play? No, because then we'd only have 2 tiers: Used, and not used.

yeah you're right i guess. I just think you took what rfof said out of its context, but she said it poorly as well.

[aku chi]

That's all i need to see to know he's not getting them.

You seem to have a reading comprehension problem. If a paragraph is too difficult for you to work through, maybe a sentence will suffice:

Haar and Titania being the best Speedwings candidates (even by far) does not imply that there are no costs associated with giving them the Speedwings.

Yeah, saying it was "free" was a mistake on my part. I know it's not technically free for either, it's usually just useful to the point where their cost of taking it is essentially wiped clean.

I think this is a potentially dangerous way to view resource costs and will result in overvaluing units who make the best use of valuable resources. When judging Titania's worth, we cannot simply evaluate her performance with the 1-E Speedwings, even if she is the best candidate. To accurately measure Titania's net value, we must take into account the opportunity cost of that Speedwings being used on another unit. Not just any other unit, but the unit who would provide the second highest benefit. This can be difficult to do in practice, but there are some ways to more easily compare units without sacrificing the accuracy of the more realistic comparison. If we were to compare Titania with Oscar, for instance, we could compare the two units both (a) under the assumption that they both get the 1-E Speedwings and (b) under the assumption that neither gets the 1-E Speedwings. If Titania is better in both comparisons (as she clearly is), then we can say with complete accuracy that Titania w Speedwings has more net value than Oscar w/o Speedwings.

[Florete]

I think this is a potentially dangerous way to view resource costs and will result in overvaluing units who make the best use of valuable resources. When judging Titania's worth, we cannot simply evaluate her performance with the 1-E Speedwings, even if she is the best candidate. To accurately measure Titania's net value, we must take into account the opportunity cost of that Speedwings being used on another unit. Not just any other unit, but the unit who would provide the second highest benefit. This can be difficult to do in practice, but there are some ways to more easily compare units without sacrificing the accuracy of the more realistic comparison. If we were to compare Titania with Oscar, for instance, we could compare the two units both (a) under the assumption that they both get the 1-E Speedwings and (b) under the assumption that neither gets the 1-E Speedwings. If Titania is better in both comparisons (as she clearly is), then we can say with complete accuracy that Titania w Speedwings has more net value than Oscar w/o Speedwings.

Then the problem comes when you compare units such as, say, Oscar and Boyd. You can do this whole "both or neither get a Wing" but you also have to consider the fact that Titania and Haar are still the best users of them and you can't necessarily give even one of Boyd or Oscar a Wing, thus the comparison is skewed if you want to give them Wings. Resource distribution as a whole just gets too complicated like that. It's like "does Titania get it 75% of the time and so 25% of the time Oscar > whoever because he gets the Wing that often," and if it's like that, is 25% of Oscar's overall value the times where he gets a Wing? How does one rank that on the tier list?

I know optimal resource distribution generally isn't the desired way to do things, and I'm not saying I like it myself, but you have to admit; it makes things a lot simpler.

[Fenrir]

But, that also has its flaws. Because in reality, titan's getting that wing so does it matter how she does without it? Items in this game make a hell of a difference, so I think we should compare with them in play. I also think we should use items in real situations, because titan and Oscar will never have the same wing, so why compare?