OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

But, that also has its flaws. Because in reality, titan's getting that wing so does it matter how she does without it? Items in this game make a hell of a difference, so I think we should compare with them in play. I also think we should use items in real situations, because titan and Oscar will never have the same wing, so why compare?

That's exactly what I was saying. If you assume optimal resource distribution, Titania gets it all the time, therefore it doesn't matter what she does without it.

[Radiant Dragon]

But, that also has its flaws. Because in reality, titan's getting that wing so does it matter how she does without it?

No. Titania will not get the Speedwing in every playthrough, even if she is one of the best users of one.

I also think we should use items in real situations, because titan and Oscar will never have the same wing, so why compare?

In this example, we would compare what Titania would do with the wing vs. what Oscar would do with the wing, and tier them respectively.

[Fenrir]

Titan will not get the wing in every playthrough. But she will be getting it in HM efficiency playthroughs every time. Convince me it would be put to better use. But we don't have two wings. We might as well rank ulki/janaff as if they have formshift

[dondon151]

You can also add in more innate crit for Nephenee.

As for the Drop, there are multiple candidates, like Ulki and Ranulf and Nephenee and Mia. Not saying Oscar is better or worse than any of them, but I wouldn't put him at the top, that's for sure.

If you think that having an "inferior Titania" is not "ideal use" of the items, then how is using them on Ulki, Ranulf, Neph, or Mia better use of the items?

[Florete]

If you think that having an "inferior Titania" is not "ideal use" of the items, then how is using them on Ulki, Ranulf, Neph, or Mia better use of the items?

Because these units can actually double.

[dondon151]

I recall that it was firmly established that Oscar (T) doubled enemies throughout part 3.

[Florete]

I recall that it was firmly established that Oscar (T) doubled enemies throughout part 3.

Yes. And? (Hint: I haven't been talking about Oscar (T) for a while now)

[Fenrir]

It's switched from Oscar(t) to Oscar(n)

Confusing I know

[aku chi]

Then the problem comes when you compare units such as, say, Oscar and Boyd. You can do this whole "both or neither get a Wing" but you also have to consider the fact that Titania and Haar are still the best users of them and you can't necessarily give even one of Boyd or Oscar a Wing, thus the comparison is skewed if you want to give them Wings. Resource distribution as a whole just gets too complicated like that. It's like "does Titania get it 75% of the time and so 25% of the time Oscar > whoever because he gets the Wing that often," and if it's like that, is 25% of Oscar's overall value the times where he gets a Wing? How does one rank that on the tier list?

I didn't explain my point fully (in this topic - I believe I covered the same point in greater detail during the Haar vs. Geoffrey discussion in the PoR tier list). The fully accurate and realistic way to compare units with different optimal resource bundles is through net value with their optimal resources using opportunity costs. This is difficult to do. Occasionally we can simplify the comparison - as I suggested with Titania vs. Oscar. It is only because Titania is better with and without the Speedwings that this simplification is comprehensive. This doesn't always work, especially when comparing units with very different optimal resource bundles, like Jill and the Black Knight. In such cases, we must perform the "realistic" comparison and approximate the opportunity costs of the units' resource use.

I know optimal resource distribution generally isn't the desired way to do things, and I'm not saying I like it myself, but you have to admit; it makes things a lot simpler.

Certainly, it does. Just in case you interpretted otherwise, I'd like to clarify that all of my recent posts have been made from the perspective of assuming optimal resource distribution. There are still opportunity costs that need to be taken into account. The upside (from a simplicity perspective) is that the optimal resource bundle for each unit is not stochastic (an awesome word, IMO).

[dondon151]

Yes. And? (Hint: I haven't been talking about Oscar (T) for a while now)

Your rebuttal implied that Oscar (T) would be unable to double while Ulki, Ranulf, Neph, and Mia could. If all 5 of these units are able to double, then Oscar (T) is the best recipient for these resources (Ulki, maybe).

Oscar (T) appeared to be the topic of discussion 3-4 pages ago, so I naturally assumed that we were still talking about him.

Edited July 25, 2011 by dondon151

[Florete]

Your rebuttal implied that Oscar (T) would be unable to double while Ulki, Ranulf, Neph, and Mia could. If all 5 of these units are able to double, then Oscar (T) is the best recipient for these resources (Ulki, maybe).

Okay, point me to which rebuttal of mine implied anything about Oscar (T), because all I remember saying about him is agreeing that he's good. Note: if my post said 'Oscar' and not 'Oscar (T),' I was not talking about Oscar (T). That's what I meant with that hint in the parentheses.

[Anouleth]

Um, it is. Yeah, Halberdiers, Snipers, Warriors...all generally share the same Spd and are often at least half of a map. Generals are slower but Oscar has the same problems with them as Neph, and neither have problems against Sages and Bishops.

Chapter 3-3 has 7 Halberdiers and 2 Snipers against 7 Generals and 5 Sages. And this is one of the heaviest maps in the game for Halberdiers. Most Part 3 maps also have plenty of Paladins (like 3-2, 3-5, 3-10).

And my point is Oscar is not making things any faster than Neph (actually, I'd say he makes it slower since I'm for Neph > Oscar) due to Titania and Haar doing the 9 Move + Canto dirty work. Lacking in Spd is kind of a problem.

+2 Move + Canto is always helpful. It is not like there is some critical mass of high move units past which additional high move units are useless. It is not like Titania and Haar are always going to be in play either.

Oscar needs more than a 'little' time owing to his base level of 12. If he gets even slightly screwed, he can usually say goodbye to doubling most enemies for a majority of the game.

Oh no we need to Crown him at level 18 instead of 17.

Oscar has a 35% chance of 23AS at level 16 and a 48% chance of 24AS. If he has 23AS, then it doesn't matter: his next level will be BEXP, since his skill is capped, and perhaps his HP is capped if we used a Robe on him. So he will almost certainly have 24AS at level 17 anyway.

3-2: No. You draw the boss in, you kill him. Haar can do this on his own, and with Titania to add anyone else just does self improvement.

3-3: Eh, arguable. Haar is the reason it's so fast, and he should be leaving behind the ones that just about any unit can get to before he's done his duty. Iirc, it takes him a minimum of 5 turns to get the very northern and north eastern supplies, Celerity or not.

Yeah, we get it, Haar is The Shit. However, in these large maps, Oscar can still reach enemies faster than Nephenee does. Even if Oscar and Nephenee are both < Haar, that does not mean Oscar = Nephenee.

4-1: Uh, not really. The design of the map makes it easy for any unit to be of good help. I don't know how reliable a 4 turn clear is, but this map can be cleared in 5 turns with just 3 competent combat units. Oscar really has no advantage here.

Actually, since Rafiel has his 4 way Vigor going on, the Canto is quite helpful since Oscar can help get into position for them.

[Florete]

Chapter 3-3 has 7 Halberdiers and 2 Snipers against 7 Generals and 5 Sages. And this is one of the heaviest maps in the game for Halberdiers. Most Part 3 maps also have plenty of Paladins (like 3-2, 3-5, 3-10).

Um, okay? What's your point? Enemies either: have the same Spd as each other (Halb, Warrior, Sniper) or give an advantage to neither of Oscar or Neph.

And still leaves out Warriors.

+2 Move + Canto is always helpful. It is not like there is some critical mass of high move units past which additional high move units are useless. It is not like Titania and Haar are always going to be in play either.

But they will be in play often enough that we have to consider them being in play over them not being in play. Yes, 2 Move and Canto is always helpful, but it's the law of diminishing returns here.

Oh no we need to Crown him at level 18 instead of 17.

Oscar has a 35% chance of 23AS at level 16 and a 48% chance of 24AS. If he has 23AS, then it doesn't matter: his next level will be BEXP, since his skill is capped, and perhaps his HP is capped if we used a Robe on him. So he will almost certainly have 24AS at level 17 anyway.

EDIT: I might come back to this later.

Yeah, we get it, Haar is The Shit. However, in these large maps, Oscar can still reach enemies faster than Nephenee does. Even if Oscar and Nephenee are both < Haar, that does not mean Oscar = Nephenee.

3-3 is arguable, but 3-2? And you mentioned 3-5 earlier. What's with these Defeat Boss maps? How does Oscar have any advantage over Nephenee here?

Actually, since Rafiel has his 4 way Vigor going on, the Canto is quite helpful since Oscar can help get into position for them.

I was questioning how useful that was here, as I've done in the past. A three front battle in FoW with enemy Pegasus Knights is not the nicest place for Rafiel. If the map can't reasonably be cut to 4 turns with Rafiel then he doesn't matter and Oscar has no real advantage on Nephenee.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Anouleth]

Um, okay? What's your point? Enemies either: have the same Spd as each other (Halb, Warrior, Sniper) or give an advantage to neither of Oscar or Neph.

Oscar has an advantage against any enemy that they both don't double, since he hits harder and is more durable.

And still leaves out Warriors.

I didn't mention them because they don't exist in 3-3.

But they will be in play often enough that we have to consider them being in play over them not being in play. Yes, 2 Move and Canto is always helpful, but it's the law of diminishing returns here.

While it's true that Titania and Haar can perform most of the "9 move jobs" on their own quite adequately, it's also true that many units can perform Nephenee's job quite adequately... in fact, there are more units that can do it. Gatrie, Ike, Mia, even Shinon to some extent, and of course, all those 9 move units that are obsoleting Oscar. The fact is, Oscar can emulate Titania and Haar, however imperfectly, and Nephenee cannot.

3-3 is arguable, but 3-2? And you mentioned 3-5 earlier. What's with these Defeat Boss maps? How does Oscar have any advantage over Nephenee here?

Even in 3-2 and 3-5 there are enemies in the way, and Istvan/Lombroso need to be killed. Yes, it's a job that other 9 move units can do. It's also a job that Nephenee can't do, without Celerity.

I was questioning how useful that was here, as I've done in the past. A three front battle in FoW with enemy Pegasus Knights is not the nicest place for Rafiel. If the map can't reasonably be cut to 4 turns with Rafiel then he doesn't matter and Oscar has no real advantage on Nephenee.

Actually, the map can be cut to 3 turns (as I did in my playthrough). I couldn't say if Rafiel is "necessary" for that.

In addition, I don't recall having any issues with the Falcoknights.

[Florete]

Oscar has an advantage against any enemy that they both don't double, since he hits harder and is more durable.

Nephenee will be doubling most enemies, though.

I didn't mention them because they don't exist in 3-3.

I meant maps where they do exist, since 3-3 is clearly not the whole game.

While it's true that Titania and Haar can perform most of the "9 move jobs" on their own quite adequately, it's also true that many units can perform Nephenee's job quite adequately... in fact, there are more units that can do it. Gatrie, Ike, Mia, even Shinon to some extent, and of course, all those 9 move units that are obsoleting Oscar. The fact is, Oscar can emulate Titania and Haar, however imperfectly, and Nephenee cannot.

And Ike, Mia, etc. are still above Nephenee for that reason. I don't really get what you're trying to say here. I never claimed that Nephenee was doing anything unique that no one can copy, just that she's helping us more than Oscar generally will on account of superior combat.

Even in 3-2 and 3-5 there are enemies in the way, and Istvan/Lombroso need to be killed. Yes, it's a job that other 9 move units can do. It's also a job that Nephenee can't do, without Celerity.

Haar can fly over the mountain and get to Istvan without any trouble alone. Reyson can also get him to Lombroso on turn 1, and if Haar needs help killing him, Soren can shoot Meteor. Even getting the Energy Drop (in two turns) shouldn't require a whole lot of extra effort.

[Fenrir]

And Ike, Mia, etc. are still above Nephenee for that reason. I don't really get what you're trying to say here. I never claimed that Nephenee was doing anything unique that no one can copy, just that she's helping us more than Oscar generally will on account of superior combat.

Is nephenee really just blowing Oscar away on combat though? IIRC she struggles to ORKO early in P3 even when doubling, and relies heavily on criticals and whatnot.

[Anouleth]

Nephenee will be doubling most enemies, though.

Not if you go through Part 2 at breakneck speed and she's level 5. Nephenee needs to gain 2 levels in Chapter 3-2 in order to double Halbs and Snipers.

Haar can fly over the mountain and get to Istvan without any trouble alone.

Good for him. Unfortunately, Haar can't kill Istvan on his own. Haar deals only 14/46HP damage to Istvan on enemy phase (and Haar needs capped strength to do that), and he can't deal 32 damage in one hit. Being able to fly over the mountain is not important, since the route with no terrain does not take any longer.

Reyson can also get him to Lombroso on turn 1, and if Haar needs help killing him, Soren can shoot Meteor.

Or we could keep it with the CRKs, where it's useful to set up kills on Ludveck or Roark. Haar does need help: he will probably not OHKO (he needs level 20/1) and definitely not double.

Even getting the Energy Drop (in two turns) shouldn't require a whole lot of extra effort.

Yet having an extra nine move unit helps. For example, Oscar can hit Lombroso and canto out of the way for Heather to steal. With the Horseslayer he should do enough damage for someone to kill with a 2-range weapon.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Anouleth

[dondon151]

I actually did use Oscar in 3-5 to 2 turn with the Energy Drop.

[Florete]

Not if you go through Part 2 at breakneck speed and she's level 5. Nephenee needs to gain 2 levels in Chapter 3-2 in order to double Halbs and Snipers.

Maybe not immediately, but she has a much easier time than Oscar, as two levels for her is much easier than for him.

Good for him. Unfortunately, Haar can't kill Istvan on his own. Haar deals only 14/46HP damage to Istvan on enemy phase (and Haar needs capped strength to do that), and he can't deal 32 damage in one hit. Being able to fly over the mountain is not important, since the route with no terrain does not take any longer.

Despite the fact that we have access to two Short Axes and one Tomahawk, Haar doesn't need to kill the guy, which I should have stated more clearly. Have him Rescue (with Savior if needed) Ike or Mia with Wyrmslayer and drop them in his range.

The route thing was to show that Oscar is no help getting to him.

Or we could keep it with the CRKs, where it's useful to set up kills on Ludveck or Roark. Haar does need help: he will probably not OHKO (he needs level 20/1) and definitely not double.

2-3 Speedwing. Honestly, I can't believe you so much as mentioned Ludveck for keeping Meteor with the CRKs. If you really need to Meteor him, Nephenee or Brom or Heather can just take it after the hit and before the kill.

Roark is easy enough with a combination of Geoffrey and Kieran, and Marcia if you need it. I really doubt this one map of use is going to be better than what Soren can use it for up to this point.

Yet having an extra nine move unit helps. For example, Oscar can hit Lombroso and canto out of the way for Heather to steal. With the Horseslayer he should do enough damage for someone to kill with a 2-range weapon.

Given.

[Fenrir]

What exactly does Soren do that is so impressive with meteor?

[Florete]

What exactly does Soren do that is so impressive with meteor?

If Calill taking a potshot at Roark is so amazing, Soren taking a potshot at Istvan/Lombroso + having it for 7 maps before Calill joins is going to be better.

Though this is hardly even relevant to the discussion.

[Fenrir]

If Calill taking a potshot at Roark is so amazing, Soren taking a potshot at Istvan/Lombroso + having it for 7 maps before Calill joins is going to be better.

Though this is hardly even relevant to the discussion.

No it's not, i was just curious.

[Anouleth]

Maybe not immediately, but she has a much easier time than Oscar, as two levels for her is much easier than for him.

I don't understand how one impossible situation is easier than another impossible situation.

Despite the fact that we have access to two Short Axes and one Tomahawk,

Even with the Tomahawk, Haar doesn't 2HKO.

Haar doesn't need to kill the guy, which I should have stated more clearly. Have him Rescue (with Savior if needed) Ike or Mia with Wyrmslayer and drop them in his range.

Something that Oscar can also do, and Nephenee most certainly cannot do.

The route thing was to show that Oscar is no help getting to him.

So even though the land route is just as fast, you decide to go over the mountain purely because Oscar isn't helpful there?

2-3 Speedwing.

Even if Haar takes the 2-3 Speedwing, he needs to be a whopping level 18/4 in order to double Lombroso.

Honestly, I can't believe you so much as mentioned Ludveck for keeping Meteor with the CRKs. If you really need to Meteor him, Nephenee or Brom or Heather can just take it after the hit and before the kill.

True, I guess.

Roark is easy enough with a combination of Geoffrey and Kieran, and Marcia if you need it. I really doubt this one map of use is going to be better than what Soren can use it for up to this point.

Which is apparently, making Oscar look bad.

[Florete]

I don't understand how one impossible situation is easier than another impossible situation.

So wait, neither of them are getting experience now?

Something that Oscar can also do, and Nephenee most certainly cannot do.

Point in question: Oscar is not getting 3-2 done faster unless Titania and Haar are dead. He's redundant.

So even though the land route is just as fast, you decide to go over the mountain purely because Oscar isn't helpful there?

You so earnestly pointed out that the land route is actually slower because enemies get in the way. Point in question: Oscar is not getting 3-2 done faster unless Titania and Haar are dead. He's redundant.

Why wouldn't I go over the mountain when it's easier?

Even if Haar takes the 2-3 Speedwing, he needs to be a whopping level 18/4 in order to double Lombroso.

Good thing I never mentioned anything about Haar doubling Lombroso, eh?

EDIT: Oh wait, I was thinking Istvan. 18/4 or 20/2, assuming Master Crown use, probably isn't that bad for 3-5, and even then there's

EDIT2: Scrap that while I look at it more closely, if it even matters.

Which is apparently, making Oscar look bad.

It has nothing to do with Oscar, or do you think I'm trying to say Kieran/Geoffrey > Oscar.

Anyway, I feel like this argument is going nowhere. We need to do an actual statistical comparison, because right now it's more like horse + maybe doubling vs. no horse + maybe more doubling with some other random crap thrown in.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Fenrir]

Anyway, I feel like this argument is going nowhere. We need to do an actual statistical comparison, because right now it's more like horse + maybe doubling vs. no horse + maybe more doubling with some other random crap thrown in.

I'll still take my horse here >:D

Mia/Ike/Shinnon are good enough infantry for me.