OMG it's a tier list

[-Cynthia-]

Point in question: Oscar is not getting 3-2 done faster unless Titania and Haar are dead. He's redundant.

You so earnestly pointed out that the land route is actually slower because enemies get in the way. Point in question: Oscar is not getting 3-2 done faster unless Titania and Haar are dead. He's redundant.

I'm going to disagree here, the fastest and most reliable strategy for 3-2 probably involves going down the left side of the map and dropping someone like Shinon in Istvan's range. Oscar can help by being able to rescue/Canto Shinon turn 1 so Haar can drop Shinon at the edge of Istvan's range turn 2. Haar's chances of ORKOing Istvan are significantly lower than Shinon's.

Now you could say "we could use Titania to transport Shinon", but someone has to clear the enemies out of the way as well.

As for 3-5, a promoted Titania has a good chance of being able to ORKO Lombroso with a forged Steel Axe. Not sure what that has to do with Oscar vs. Nephenee though.

[Florete]

I'm going to disagree here, the fastest and most reliable strategy for 3-2 probably involves going down the left side of the map and dropping someone like Shinon in Istvan's range. Oscar can help by being able to rescue/Canto Shinon turn 1 so Haar can drop Shinon at the edge of Istvan's range turn 2. Haar's chances of ORKOing Istvan are significantly lower than Shinon's.

Please do remember that Celerity is needed to reach Istvan's range in two turns. The 'best' way to pull off your method is to have Haar take Shinon on turn 1, fly over the mountains so as to remain away from enemies, and drop him on turn 2 in Istvan's range. The most he'll need is others to distract the nearby enemies, but we don't need someone with 9 Move to do that.

And I don't know where I ever mentioned Haar ORKOing Istvan. What the hell, both of you? I mentioned him dropping Ike or Mia with a Wyrmslayer for a reliable 3 turn clear and noted that the Short Axes and Tomahawk do more damage and are readily available just in case.

[-Cynthia-]

Please do remember that Celerity is needed to reach Istvan's range in two turns. The 'best' way to pull off your method is to have Haar take Shinon on turn 1, fly over the mountains so as to remain away from enemies, and drop him on turn 2 in Istvan's range. The most he'll need is others to distract the nearby enemies, but we don't need someone with 9 Move to do that.

It's true that 7 Mov units also help to clear the way, I was rejecting your notion that Titania+Haar make Oscar totally redundant here, Titania+Haar+Oscar+other people > Titania+Haar here.

And I don't know where I ever mentioned Haar ORKOing Istvan. What the hell, both of you? I mentioned him dropping Ike or Mia with a Wyrmslayer for a reliable 3 turn clear and noted that the Short Axes and Tomahawk do more damage and are readily available just in case.

We can 2 turn it with a Shinon drop farily reliably. Not sure if Oscar rescuing Shinon is strictly necessary or not (dondon did it that way is his 0% growths playthrough).

Edited July 27, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

It's true that 7 Mov units also help to clear the way, I was rejecting your notion that Titania+Haar make Oscar totally redundant here, Titania+Haar+Oscar+other people > Titania+Haar here.

The point is that Oscar isn't helping anymore than Nephenee is. And yes, Haar in particular does make Oscar redundant.

We can 2 turn it with a Shinon drop farily reliably. Not sure if Oscar rescuing Shinon is strictly necessary or not (dondon did it that way is his 0% growths playthrough).

I don't know the chances of the 2 turn Shinon drop, but I'm pretty sure it's not 100% (and probably <50%) while dropping Ike or Mia, getting a hit on enemy phase, then finishing on player phase is probably at or 100%. It doesn't matter for this discussion either way, though.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't know the chances of the 2 turn Shinon drop, but I'm pretty sure it's not 100% (and probably <50%) while dropping Ike or Mia, getting a hit on enemy phase, then finishing on player phase is probably at or 100%. It doesn't matter for this discussion either way, though.

Not a 100%, but greater than 50% (max Crit Steel forge, ~25% Adept, ~33% Crit, 2 chances is around 68% I think).

[dondon151]

Potshots on Roark in 3-9 with Meteor are worth more than potshots on all of the other part 3 bosses combined because the GMs have more capable units.

[Florete]

Potshots on Roark in 3-9 with Meteor are worth more than potshots on all of the other part 3 bosses combined because the GMs have more capable units.

It's a good thing it can be used on more than bosses, then.

Though this has become completely irrelevant.

[Anouleth]

So wait, neither of them are getting experience now?

Not 200 experience. In three turns. In a map where Nephenee probably won't see any turn 1 action.

Point in question: Oscar is not getting 3-2 done faster unless Titania and Haar are dead. He's redundant.

You so earnestly pointed out that the land route is actually slower because enemies get in the way. Point in question: Oscar is not getting 3-2 done faster unless Titania and Haar are dead. He's redundant.

Oscar and Nephenee are not going to get any chapters done faster than top tier units. That is why Oscar and Nephenee are in upper mid. That does not render all non-combat contributions 100% irrelevant.

If I said that, I was wrong. The land route and the mountain route are pretty much the same length because Paladins aren't very hard to kill.

Good thing I never mentioned anything about Haar doubling Lombroso, eh?

Except for the bit where you did mention it:

Haar can fly over the mountain and get to Istvan without any trouble alone. Reyson can also get him to Lombroso on turn 1, and if Haar needs help killing him, Soren can shoot Meteor. Even getting the Energy Drop (in two turns) shouldn't require a whole lot of extra effort.

The implication is that Haar probably doesn't need help. I disagreed, and you said "2-3 Speedwing", which doesn't really help. I guess that Haar does have a good chance of having enough strength to OHKO Lombroso with the Horseslayer, but that's difficult to do if you're also taking the Drop (since Lombroso ultimately needs to be killed at 2 range).

EDIT: Oh wait, I was thinking Istvan. 18/4 or 20/2, assuming Master Crown use, probably isn't that bad for 3-5, and even then there's

EDIT2: Scrap that while I look at it more closely, if it even matters.

If you're wondering, if you gave Haar the 3-3 Crown and then had him kill literally every enemy in 3-4, I'm still not sure if he would reach level 4 (he'd probably be short by a few points of exp). And that's leaving out the issue of getting him seven levels in four not-very-long chapters, where he's again, kind of overlevelled.

Anyway, I feel like this argument is going nowhere. We need to do an actual statistical comparison, because right now it's more like horse + maybe doubling vs. no horse + maybe more doubling with some other random crap thrown in.

It's Oscar winning everything vs Nephenee maybe winning speed by a point or two and not taking a somewhat early Crown.

[Florete]

Not 200 experience. In three turns. In a map where Nephenee probably won't see any turn 1 action.

The point is that Nephenee gets to doubling Spd much easier.

The implication is that Haar probably doesn't need help. I disagreed, and you said "2-3 Speedwing", which doesn't really help. I guess that Haar does have a good chance of having enough strength to OHKO Lombroso with the Horseslayer, but that's difficult to do if you're also taking the Drop (since Lombroso ultimately needs to be killed at 2 range).

2-3 Speedwing was when you mentioned Ludveck, since that's all Haar needs to double and ORKO him. I mentioned help (in the form of Meteor) for Lombroso at all because I knew Haar would not likely double him; if he did, I'm pretty sure Haar would just ORKO, though he might need the Tomahawk.

If you're wondering, if you gave Haar the 3-3 Crown and then had him kill literally every enemy in 3-4, I'm still not sure if he would reach level 4 (he'd probably be short by a few points of exp). And that's leaving out the issue of getting him seven levels in four not-very-long chapters, where he's again, kind of overlevelled.

I was thinking of 20/2 more, but then I realized what the Speedwing before promotion did to his average Spd, which is why I edit'd.

It's Oscar winning everything vs Nephenee maybe winning speed by a point or two and not taking a somewhat early Crown.

See, that's why this is going nowhere. Brushing it off like that is helping nothing. I've already pointed out that Oscar often barely misses the double on enemies, so if Nephenee wins Spd by just a point or two, it is probably the difference that allows her to double. Atk is easier to fix than AS, and this is why I still stand by Nephenee > Oscar.

[dondon151]

It's a good thing it can be used on more than bosses, then.

Mooks are even smaller fry than bosses. These guys don't even count. Why do we need to waste siege tome uses on them?

[Florete]

Mooks are even smaller fry than bosses. These guys don't even count. Why do we need to waste siege tome uses on them?

Any number of reasons. How often do we actually need this Meteor for a specific strategy to work? It can help in insurance against things like misses and enemies who barely withstand what others did to them previously. How necessary is it for Calill to hit Roark with it that it's actually more valuable to have there than in the rest of part 3?

[dondon151]

Calill + Kieran + Geoffrey KO Roark without need for the Brave Lance. Now, tell me, how useful is Meteor at killing things that Ike, Titania, or Haar murdered dead?

[Florete]

Calill + Kieran + Geoffrey KO Roark without need for the Brave Lance. Now, tell me, how useful is Meteor at killing things that Ike, Titania, or Haar murdered dead?

Did you not read my post at all or do you purposely ignore what I say?

Actually I'm not going to say anything else because this is just as irrelevant as it was 20 posts ago.

[Fenrir]

I agree with dondon here. Meteor is better in callil's hands. That also brings up something else. Oscar and neph can now have access to the Brave lance.

I also agree with my initial post, Oscar > Neph.

Neph: Higher AS < Oscar: Higher Strength, A horse.

That's what it comes down to for me. Also brave lance can help Oscar ORKO.

[dondon151]

Did you not read my post at all or do you purposely ignore what I say?

The latter, because I don't consider those arguments strong enough to acknowledge for what I thought were obvious reasons.

First of all, you need Meteor for 3-9 if you don't have the Brave Lance. There are probably alternative methods that involve the 3-9 Master Crown and lots of BEXP on Marcia or Danved, but this always works as I have demonstrated.

Second. You don't need any insurance in the GM chapters. Most of the time, things get killed very reliably because of the existence of +hit on forges. Sometimes, you miss and they live, but even in most of those cases you don't even need to kill everything. Either someone will be there to clean up in the case of a rout or that enemy wasn't important in the first place in the case of a seize.

I've never personally wished for Meteor playing through the GM chapters. In fact, I've never had room to deploy Soren past like 3-5.

Edited July 27, 2011 by dondon151

[Florete]

And I thought I was bad at continuing irrelevant arguments.

Dondon, is this somehow important to you or the topic at hand?

Edited July 27, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Anouleth]

The point is that Nephenee gets to doubling Spd much easier.

Who cares if it's still impossible? Leonardo gets to doubling speed easier than Aran, but it might as well be on the other side of the moon from them, so who cares? Obviously, Nephenee and Oscar are kind of in the correct speed neighbourhood, but she still needs to get about seven kills in 3-2 to gain two levels, which is not really going to happen.

2-3 Speedwing was when you mentioned Ludveck, since that's all Haar needs to double and ORKO him. I mentioned help (in the form of Meteor) for Lombroso at all because I knew Haar would not likely double him; if he did, I'm pretty sure Haar would just ORKO, though he might need the Tomahawk.

Ah, okay.

See, that's why this is going nowhere. Brushing it off like that is helping nothing. I've already pointed out that Oscar often barely misses the double on enemies, so if Nephenee wins Spd by just a point or two, it is probably the difference that allows her to double.

Well, what does Nephenee have on Oscar aside from slightly better speed and not needing the 3-6 Crown?

Atk is easier to fix than AS

And AS is easier to fix than movement.

, and this is why I still stand by Nephenee > Oscar.

Nephenee has more AS and less ATK than a lot of people.

[dondon151]

And I thought I was bad at continuing irrelevant arguments.

Dondon, is this somehow important to you or the topic at hand?

It's a point that I wanted to solidify so that users in the future wouldn't claim Meteor to be more useful with the GMs than with the CRK.

[Colonel M]

From my experiences with Nephenee in my last playthrough, she was really mediocre-to-bad throughout the entire playthrough. Her being over Oscar is actually... shocking.

[Soren37]

I thought Neph was greater than Oscar because of her SPD cap. She can double the late game spirits without resorting to a weapon with crappy Mt (Brave Lance), which Oscar can't do. If we're looking at efficiency, then the X number of turns that Oscar saves us in part 3 compared to the Y number of turns Neph saves us in Part 4 could be negligible.

And I know people are going to come up and go "Part 4 can be cleared in 5 turns, tops". Yes, I've seen dondon's extreme efficiency videos (I still think you're crazy for that), but if he had to use Oscar, then would he have completed Part 4 as quickly? Also, HM Brom solo P2-Ch. 1.

[-Cynthia-]

I guess Nephenee's 2-1 is an important consideration since she's better than just Brom (though Oscar is good for clearing 3-P and 3-1 as well so eh).

[Soren37]

3-P and 3-1 every GM is being used, as far as I can tell. Heck, even Rolf's being used because of his chip damage.

[Anouleth]

I thought Neph was greater than Oscar because of her SPD cap. She can double the late game spirits without resorting to a weapon with crappy Mt (Brave Lance), which Oscar can't do. If we're looking at efficiency, then the X number of turns that Oscar saves us in part 3 compared to the Y number of turns Neph saves us in Part 4 could be negligible.

The problem is that Y is often going to be zero. Nephenee is very slightly better in 4-E-5, but the additional ~20 damage that she does is not likely to help you save a turn, almost no matter what team you use. And even in Endgame, Oscar has advantages. It's easier for him to reach Spirits in 4-E-4 and he's also better in 4-E-1. I know that Oscar's lead over Nephenee in Part 3 is not really conclusive either, but a minor lead for 11 chapters is preferable to a minor lead for 1 chapter.

And I know people are going to come up and go "Part 4 can be cleared in 5 turns, tops". Yes, I've seen dondon's extreme efficiency videos (I still think you're crazy for that), but if he had to use Oscar, then would he have completed Part 4 as quickly? Also, HM Brom solo P2-Ch. 1.

I don't understand your point. I'm kind of cagey about Nephenee's 2-1 since I think that Nephenee is practically required for that chapter due to being one of only two characters. I wouldn't be happy with that argument being pulled for Edward or for Brom either.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Anouleth

[Florete]

I don't understand your point. I'm kind of cagey about Nephenee's 2-1 since I think that Nephenee is practically required for that chapter due to being one of only two characters. I wouldn't be happy with that argument being pulled for Edward or for Brom either.

It's been said in the past that these kinds of arguments can be used as a tiebreaker in the worst circumstances, so we could still say that. Doesn't Nephenee also have an impact on 2-2?

[Anouleth]

It's been said in the past that these kinds of arguments can be used as a tiebreaker in the worst circumstances, so we could still say that. Doesn't Nephenee also have an impact on 2-2?

Well, Oscar also has an impact in 3-P and 3-1. And I wouldn't say that Nephenee and Oscar are "tied" in the remainder of the game.