OMG it's a tier list

[Lord Raven]

Astrid has a hard time doing things in 2-3 as far as I'm aware, and 3-9 she's good for a tiny amount of chip and nothing more if memory serves.

Her rescue-dropping utility is probably just as significant as Pelleas maybe hitting something with Fenrir.

Just noticed this, rescue-dropping what, exactly? When you recruit her, the only things left in Part 1 are Chapter 7 (semi-indoors), 8 (tons of terrain to not let her do anything, is she even deployable in this chapter?), and endgame (indoor, again). 3-6 has her doing virtually nothing considering she doesn't have stats at this point unless you, by some miracle, get her promoted. 3-12... what rescue-dropping, exactly? And how is she doing it? 3-13 is NOT a rescue dropping chapter and she'll get mauled in an instant. Part 4 is self-explanatory, she gets mauled by everything under the sun and there's no rescue-dropping involved.

Zero rescue dropping is... not at all as significant as Pelleas' chip, either from Fenrir or some other Dark tome with some weird ass name that I don't remember at all because for some reason they decided not to use classics like Flux, Luna, or Eclipse.

Normally I'd agree with you, but there's only so many Staff bots we need. Micaiah's forced, and Elincia is just plain better if we need a second, not to mention Lehran in 4-E-5. I can't think of a single reason he should be deployed in Endgame.

So you state "Elincia outclasses Oliver" after my spiel about how stupid the argument is. Many characters are better than Fiona at... rescue dropping in Part 4 but that was not at all apart of my argument.

I also don't think Lyre is so bad that she deserves to be a tier below Fiona and Oliver, but...

In her own tier? Absolutely not. Kyza more or less fucking sucks too but he's nowhere near as low as Lyre.

I'm not sure what Lehran is doing as high as he is if nobody was willing to listen to my case in favor of Karel.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[aku chi]

Not to mention basically all of these characters have better Magic than Oliver, so better range.

Or not.

Base Oliver has 31 Magic.

Laura needs to be 10/10/10 or equivalent to match that. Not happening.

Mist needs to be 20/18 to match that. Not happening.

Rhys needs to be 10/8 to match that. This is theoretically possible, but unlikely.

Micaiah absolutely cannot exceed 32 Magic before 4-E and needs to be 17/11/1 to reach 31 Magic in the first place.

Elincia cannot exceed 30 Magic and doesn't reach 25 on average by level 20.

Of the Mages, only Pelleas can wield Fortify (and he'll need two Arms Scrolls). He needs to be 15/7 to have 31 Magic. Highly unlikely.

Oliver is a perfectly fine staff-bot. The problem is that we already have a sufficient staff-bot in Micaiah and if we want another, it's for Rescue - which Elincia and Mist are better suited for.

[Radiant Dragon]

So you state "Elincia outclasses Oliver" after my spiel about how stupid the argument is. Many characters are better than Fiona at... rescue dropping in Part 4 but that was not at all apart of my argument.

You need to realize that being outclassed as a staff user is far more crippling than being outclassed as a combat unit. As Aku-Chi said, we have no need whatsoever for any staffbots other than Micaiah and Lehran in Endgame. Practically every other character can contribute someway in an efficient playthrough (assuming we're not going strict max efficiency yet). Oliver can not due to being completely redundant.

[Florete]

Just noticed this, rescue-dropping what, exactly?

I've not seen/done it myself, but apparently there's a Rescue/Give/Drop thing in 1-7 for a low turn clear that only Jill and Fiona can do because of Canto. Fiona doing it allows Jill to kill stuff instead, but being one of only two units is still nice.

For the 3-6 thing, she could have 0s all around with 1 HP and still chuck Javelins at Laguz to lower their gauge. She can Rescue/Drop NPCs in 3-13 to block holes.

In her own tier? Absolutely not. Kyza more or less fucking sucks too but he's nowhere near as low as Lyre.

Then perhaps Kyza needs to go down rather than Lyre up. Kyza appears to be, at the very least, salvageable without too much heartache. Can't say that for Lyre.

I'm not sure what Lehran is doing as high as he is if nobody was willing to listen to my case in favor of Karel.

What does Karel have to do with Lehran's position? Lehran can actually be quite helpful in 4-E-5 doubling Auras with Mag and possibly using the Ashera Staff. Nothing amazing, but that's why he's in Low.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Anouleth]

Oliver's healing comes in handy whenever, Fortify or not. In fact, being an extra person existing to actually do all of those things is a boon in itself.

It really doesn't. You basically never have to heal in Endgame... ever. The only risk of dying comes from Ashera's AoE (which is generally a threat because it OHKOes) and maybe if a load of Sages gang up on a low res unit in 4-E-1. There's also the risk of getting criticalled by the Double Bow Sniper. None of which Oliver really does anything to alleviate. I didn't need to heal once in my 2-turn strategy. Most players will need to heal even less since they won't go for the 2-turn strategy in the first place. And if you do need to heal once... Micaiah. If you need to heal twice... Rafiel (I had leftover Rafiel spaces as well). Or Fortify. Or any of the dozens of options that don't involve dragging Duke Pervert into a valuable endgame slot.

Not to mention basically all of these characters have better Magic than Oliver, so better range. Also Micky has Sacrifice which eliminates Status conditions, so she's a free Restore staff with no item slot.

Except that they don't. Micaiah is never going to reach 33 magic, it's actually impossible without giving her BEXP in 4-E. Most other staff users need to be absurd levels to have 33 magic. The only one who matches Oliver in raw magic is Bastian, who can't use Fortify.

[Florete]

Except that they don't. Micaiah is never going to reach 33 magic, it's actually impossible without giving her BEXP in 4-E. Most other staff users need to be absurd levels to have 33 magic. The only one who matches Oliver in raw magic is Bastian, who can't use Fortify.

Oliver's base Mag is 31. Not that it really changes your point.

[incognit0]

As long as you don't need the NPCs in 3-6, which you shouldn't, then you can have Fiona rescue the ally bishop and have the NPCs target the southwest corner. Then, whenever you need an extra heal on an obvious target you can use the ally bishop. Simply have Fiona drop him in the general direction you want him to go, then turn the Allies on Roam. They won't get in the way, and you can rescue the bishop again next turn and put the others back into the corner, ready to heal next turn.

Admittedly this isn't limited to Fiona but she is the best at it due to 8 move and Canto. Trading weapons, ferrying bishops, rescue dropping walls, bringing Physic Micaiah back from danger, the 1-7 strategy and gauge lowering all are useful, in a small way. Together though they definitely help more than Lyre's shoving. I'd say Fiona is a tier better than Lyre and Oliver.

Edit: Wow, just checked the front page, and Fiona is below Oliver and Kurth. Kinda surprised considering she can do marginal stuff that they can't. Like Anouleth said, Oliver's healing utility in Endgame (for ONE chapter - 4-E-2 through 4-E4 are one turned, and 4-E-5 you have Lehran) is next to none, and I don't even have a clue anything unique Kurth can do in the first place.

Edited August 5, 2011 by incognito123

[Lord Raven]

What does Karel have to do with Lehran's position? Lehran can actually be quite helpful in 4-E-5 doubling Auras with Mag and possibly using the Ashera Staff. Nothing amazing, but that's why he's in Low.

Everyone ignored me when I brought up a not-so-different case in favor of Karel, except he's still below characters like Bors/Merlinus/etc who are actually comparable to Fiona/Meg/Lyre in use.

She can Rescue/Drop NPCs in 3-13 to block holes.

Erm... how?

Then perhaps Kyza needs to go down rather than Lyre up. Kyza appears to be, at the very least, salvageable without too much heartache. Can't say that for Lyre.

Can we say the same about like Meg or Astrid then lol? Because Astrid without transfers is not at all salvageable it seems, especially taking into account the fact that they don't get nearly as much out of a BEXP level up as Lyre does.

I've not seen/done it myself, but apparently there's a Rescue/Give/Drop thing in 1-7 for a low turn clear that only Jill and Fiona can do because of Canto. Fiona doing it allows Jill to kill stuff instead, but being one of only two units is still nice.

I'd love to see it, actually, or at least the brainstorming behind it.

Or any of the dozens of options that don't involve dragging Duke Pervert into a valuable endgame slot.

Everyone's competing for an endgame slot you know... it just happens that Oliver's probably the best person to place in that slot out of every single healer anyway, if you want a healer. Random rescue chaining isn't a bad thing for when you'd want to use it, anyway, if we're comparing to any other staff user in competition for the staff slot, of course not getting into the fact that he's still useful for whatever staff utility he can provide which, if someone's going to play the "outclassed and takes up a slot" card on me again, is better than another generic combat unit for the endgame.

Or Fortify.

I'm fairly sure the argument was that Oliver was useful for using this, even if Micaiah's already force deployed. He actually covers more range than Micaiah and heals for more, anyway. Edited August 5, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Florete]

Everyone ignored me when I brought up a not-so-different case in favor of Karel, except he's still below characters like Bors/Merlinus/etc who are actually comparable to Fiona/Meg/Lyre in use.

I don't follow the FE6 tier list so I can't say much on that.

Erm... how?

By choosing the "Rescue" option on turn 1 and then the "Drop" option on turn 2 in the appropriate spot.

Can we say the same about like Meg or Astrid then lol? Because Astrid without transfers is not at all salvageable it seems, especially taking into account the fact that they don't get nearly as much out of a BEXP level up as Lyre does.

What does Lyre get out of a BEXP level up?

Spd - Good for a level or two, but quickly becomes redundant and actually harmful to the growth of other needy stats.

Skl - Hardly part of her problem.

HP/Lck - Good in high numbers but not worth a whole lot point-for-point.

Don't swing on the BEXP argument just because non-HP/Lck stats get doubled. Fact is, Lyre actually gets very little out of BEXP early on because the stats she really needs (Str and Def) are among her lower growths.

I could mention the things Meg and Astrid do, but there's actually not much point. Comparing to other tier breaks, no, Lyre's tier probably isn't worth existing. The idea is that every other unit has the ability to contribute positively even in the most minor way possible while Lyre will never be anything except negative unless you just don't deploy her. It's more of a joke on her than anything else for being that terrible. If people really want to see her in the next tier, I can move her.

if someone's going to play the "outclassed and takes up a slot" card on me again, is better than another generic combat unit for the endgame.

Wrong. Quick clears of E-1 and E-5 in particular will likely require all the good combat you can get. It's also helpful in E-3 and E-4 for the various things that need to be done (simply killing Dheg and getting rid of the Spirits in front of Lehran).

[Anouleth]

Can we say the same about like Meg or Astrid then lol? Because Astrid without transfers is not at all salvageable it seems, especially taking into account the fact that they don't get nearly as much out of a BEXP level up as Lyre does.

The only thing you get out of giving BEXP to Lyre is learning not to BEXP Lyre in the future. Which is actually a pretty worthwhile lesson.

Everyone's competing for an endgame slot you know... it just happens that Oliver's probably the best person to place in that slot out of every single healer anyway, if you want a healer.

That's a pretty big if, on par with "Fiona's the best person to place in that slot if you want a shitty unpromoted cavalier for comedy purposes". And even then I might prefer Mist's canto. Or Elincia having competitive combat.

Random rescue chaining isn't a bad thing for when you'd want to use it, anyway, if we're comparing to any other staff user in competition for the staff slot, of course not getting into the fact that he's still useful for whatever staff utility he can provide which, if someone's going to play the "outclassed and takes up a slot" card on me again, is better than another generic combat unit for the endgame.

wtfamireading.jpg

I'm fairly sure the argument was that Oliver was useful for using this, even if Micaiah's already force deployed. He actually covers more range than Micaiah and heals for more, anyway.

Except you don't need a lot of range and you don't need to heal for a lot. Like I said, I didn't need any healing. And most players are going to need less healing.

[RNG Princess]

@Mercenary Raven

I have a 5 turn strategy for 1-7, all Fiona does is rescue Miccy on turn 3 and drop her on turn 4 (she could do it on turn 1 but I did it in turn 3 so Miccy could sacrifice heal Jill)

For 3-6 Fiona can rescue BK and allow Jill to drop him or she can use javelin to detransform laguz or torch.

Lastly for 3-13 Fiona rescues one of the generals (below Miccy's ledge) and moves to the right ledge, on turn 2 she drops him. Even if you put NPCs on roam he won't move.

She does these things and makes her worth deploying at least, and when she is deployed she's not taking a combat spot except for 1-7 but theres really no problem for her deployed there I assume since the goal is getting Miccy to the seize tile.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Lord Raven]

Oh okay, I was just wondering actually, I didn't want to contradict anyone despite the way it seemed.

By choosing the "Rescue" option on turn 1 and then the "Drop" option on turn 2 in the appropriate spot.

Err, I was wondering if it was a bit more convenient than that though I can see how this can help to some extent... the thing is I still don't get how this would help aside from some simple chokepoint blockage (since she can only ferry one unit at a time).

Don't swing on the BEXP argument just because non-HP/Lck stats get doubled. Fact is, Lyre actually gets very little out of BEXP early on because the stats she really needs (Str and Def) are among her lower growths.

BEXP abuse isn't an argument? I still don't understand how Kyza's that much higher than Lyre at any rate.

I could mention the things Meg and Astrid do, but there's actually not much point. Comparing to other tier breaks, no, Lyre's tier probably isn't worth existing. The idea is that every other unit has the ability to contribute positively even in the most minor way possible while Lyre will never be anything except negative unless you just don't deploy her. It's more of a joke on her than anything else for being that terrible. If people really want to see her in the next tier, I can move her.

That's actually what I'll settle for since I don't think the tier break is at all mandatory, and it only serves to confuse people like me who honestly would rather see some consistency in structuring with actual playable units. I'm not sure what I was arguing but I definitely didn't mean to really say that Lyre is above Astrid or Meg (although I might've said it at some point, I'm pretty much convinced at this point partially out of apathy and partially out of the fact that I don't see what Meg can do at all, of all things).

Wrong. Quick clears of E-1 and E-5 in particular will likely require all the good combat you can get. It's also helpful in E-3 and E-4 for the various things that need to be done (simply killing Dheg and getting rid of the Spirits in front of Lehran).

You said E-1 and E-5 but what of E2/3? Surely some staff utility in E3 (which is closer to a 1 or two turn defend map than anything). I'm still referring to something like Rescue use and Fortify as opposed to actually healing with something like Mend or Physic, though, seeing as Rescue staff has far more tactical use depending on the strategy for low turns. There's also Matrona which boosts Biorhythm to max.

The only thing you get out of giving BEXP to Lyre is learning not to BEXP Lyre in the future. Which is actually a pretty worthwhile lesson.

Fucking terrible argument. I expected much better from you.

That's a pretty big if, on par with "Fiona's the best person to place in that slot if you want a shitty unpromoted cavalier for comedy purposes". And even then I might prefer Mist's canto. Or Elincia having competitive combat.

Great, not only do I know already that Mist and Elincia are better than Oliver (absolutely fucking MIND blowing), but I know that being a shitty unpromoted Lance Knight/Cavalier is comparable to being a staff user. Fucking great.

EDIT: not healer, staff user

wtfamireading.jpg

I'm referring to rescue staffs and how this "there are better units to use anyway LOL that affects their tier placement" is still a stupid argument. Cut the condescending comments.

Except you don't need a lot of range and you don't need to heal for a lot. Like I said, I didn't need any healing. And most players are going to need less healing.

EXCEPT I'M NOT SAYING HEALING IS THE ONLY STAFF UTILITY. You can even use the Sleep staff against a random enemy that you feel would give you trouble, and Silencing random ranged sages helps too. Edited August 5, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

EXCEPT I'M NOT SAYING HEALING IS THE ONLY STAFF UTILITY

Neither are we. When you beat a map in 1 turn, you don't need a healer.

[Colonel M]

Neither are we. When you beat a map in 1 turn, you don't need a healer.

Not always true. Marth in Lunatic Mode killing Medeus in one turn requires healing.

Minor nitpick, I know, I just felt like saying something.

[Lord Raven]

Neither are we. When you beat a map in 1 turn, you don't need a healer.

I'm not sure what you were trying to say in this statement, dude.

[Radiant Dragon]

I'm not sure what you were trying to say in this statement, dude.

How many staffbots do you need to use Rescue to clear a map in one turn? How many staffbots do you need to use Fortify once a turn? How is statusing enemy magic users at all reliable and/or necessary?

[Fenrir]

Not always true. Marth in Lunatic Mode killing Medeus in one turn requires healing.

Minor nitpick, I know, I just felt like saying something.

It's not really minor at all, it's far below minor.

I wouldn't mind seeing Oliver in Lyre's tier, he does absolutely nothing, and takes more effort than necessary to be recruited.

[Lord Raven]

How many staffbots do you need to use Rescue to clear a map in one turn? How many staffbots do you need to use Fortify once a turn? How is statusing enemy magic users at all reliable and/or necessary?

What can Kurthnaga, Astrid, or Meg do that's any better?

I wouldn't mind seeing Oliver in Lyre's tier, he does absolutely nothing, and takes more effort than necessary to be recruited.

Once again I was always under the impression that this is actually never an argument for or against any particular unit.

Also, why is Soren that far ahead Brom? Brom does a good amount of meatshielding in part 2 and part 3, whereas Soren doesn't have very much AS the entire game (he caps speed at 23 before promotion and 32 afterwards... and his speed growth is not too hot considering his Mag/Skl caps high in Tier 3). I don't see how Brom's offense or defense are ever lower than Soren's, and they have roughly the same move.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Fenrir]

What can Kurthnaga, Astrid, or Meg do that's any better?

Once again I was always under the impression that this is actually never an argument for or against any particular unit.

Free optimal deployment. That's what they do better.

Well if it isn't, he doesn't do all that much on 4-4, and he should not be taken to 4-E. Do you really need more than Elincia/Miccy?

[Radiant Dragon]

Do you really need more than Elincia/Miccy?

You don't even need more than Micaiah.

[Lord Raven]

Free optimal deployment. That's what they do better.

And what are they doing with that deployment? When they enter a map do they have any potential to do anything, at all?

Well if it isn't, he doesn't do all that much on 4-4, and he should not be taken to 4-E. Do you really need more than Elincia/Miccy?

You don't even need more than Micaiah.

Congratulations, you both have once again proven, like everyone else, that Elincia and Micaiah are better than Oliver. This is not at all what I'm arguing. Edited August 5, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

Congratulations, you both have once again proven, like everyone else, that Elincia and Micaiah are better than Oliver. This is not at all what I'm arguing.

What are you arguing then? If Oliver is never being deployed in Endgame, what can he contribute?

[Fenrir]

Congratulations, you both have once again proven, like everyone else, that Elincia and Micaiah are better than Oliver. This is not at all what I'm arguing.

It's got a hell of a lot to do with what your arguing though.

And what are they doing with that deployment? When they enter a map do they have any potential to do anything, at all?

Chip Damage, and they have more maps to do it than Oliver's 4-4.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Fenrir

[RNG Princess]

@Fenrir according to tier rules the method of recruiting a character doesn't count against them ^^' thats what Mercenary Raven is trying to make us understand.

What hurts Oliver is that endgame is dependant on units that can kill enemies better and faster, which he doesn't do. He'd just be sitting around waiting for a right moment to finally use a staff and to top it off he fights for a deployment slot.

about the comment on Kyza, many of the arguments that hurt Lyre affect him too. Like he brings nothing to the table or he shouldn't be deployed etc but Kyza is dealing better damage compared to Lyre and he has good gauge. Apparantly Kyza can use a speedwing nicely. Also both Lyre and Kyza can use the BEXP + Blossom method to have them fight better, which is alot easier than fixing Fiona at least.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Radiant Dragon]

WRT Lyre and Kyza: Kyza's redeemable with resources. Lyre isn't.