OMG it's a tier list

[Fenrir]

Sothe doesn't really do "chip" damage unless we stick him with a Bronze Knife through all of Part 1. He's one of our better offensive units for most chapters actually.

yup, P1 was exactly what i was talking about. ('cept not)

@NM: So we want Sothe to be EVEN MORE USELESS without Baselard? :S

@nflchamp: Sothe's not useless in Part three in the very least. BeastKiller still grows strong, so the only problem we'd have with Sothe is his defences, really.His damage is pretty strong in two out of his three chapters.

Part 4 is iffy though. He still can do pretty decent damage and not chip( which Oscar(T) would do but worse since he has doubling problem due to bad cap)

I wouldn't want to rely on Sothe in P3 with beast killer, since he can kill two tigers, and then the 3rd one kills him.(or however many it takes to kill a sothe)

Oscar has flexibilty between teams however, giving him SOME advantage. And i believe he'd be better than Sothe, but i'm tired atm and far too lazy to look up stats.

[Bluedoom]

yup, P1 was exactly what i was talking about. ('cept not)

I wouldn't want to rely on Sothe in P3 with beast killer, since he can kill two tigers, and then the 3rd one kills him.(or however many it takes to kill a sothe)

Oscar has flexibilty between teams however, giving him SOME advantage. And i believe he'd be better than Sothe, but i'm tired atm and far too lazy to look up stats.

Then by that logic Sothe's chip damage should be even more valuable. I mean, by doing chip damage he's avoiding dying on enemy phase, which alone is great. Also why I've always wondered how Nolan has a good part 3 even with beastfoe and Tarvos- he's still under threat of getting 3HKO'd just as much as Sothe is. Perhaps supports help him...

I do however agree Sothe is too high. Sothe's good, but not great enough to be above Ike.

[Florete]

I wouldn't want to rely on Sothe in P3 with beast killer, since he can kill two tigers, and then the 3rd one kills him.(or however many it takes to kill a sothe)

This never happens in one turn. Cats are just more common in general, and Laguz movement in swamp sucks.

Also, all things considered, I thought Sothe's current position was an obvious joke, but apparently not. I guess even when I think it's been revealed my jokes are much too subtle, so let me say it straight: Sothe's current position is a joke. His real position would be somewhere in Top.

[Dark Sage]

This never happens in one turn. Cats are just more common in general, and Laguz movement in swamp sucks.

Also, all things considered, I thought Sothe's current position was an obvious joke, but apparently not. I guess even when I think it's been revealed my jokes are much too subtle, so let me say it straight: Sothe's current position is a joke. His real position would be somewhere in Top.

Sothe in the ending deserves his spot. He gets to sex Micaiah up and becomes a l337 king. Meaning he's forced to drop the stupid belly shirt. Ike just leaves the continent. What a dick amirite?

Sothe in the actual gameplay sections should probably be like, right below Ike or something I guess.

[Narga_Rocks]

Also, all things considered, I thought Sothe's current position was an obvious joke, but apparently not. I guess even when I think it's been revealed my jokes are much too subtle, so let me say it straight: Sothe's current position is a joke. His real position would be somewhere in Top.

Considering his tier title, it should've been extremely obvious. Also, above Haar? Above the 3 joke spots?

As for renaming easy mode tier, I was hoping someone more creative could come up with something. Otherwise, call it "Cream of the crop"? Whatever it is, just don't call it easy mode, because you can't move around Haar as if the game was easy mode 'cause he'll die. Ike(T) you can just waltz around with impunity.

[Interceptor]

This never happens in one turn. Cats are just more common in general, and Laguz movement in swamp sucks.

You know what else never happens in one turn? Chapter 3-6. Sothe gets rolled by Tiger + a fist bump, and doesn't magically revive between phases. A pair of cats is the only combination of enemies that doesn't flatten him like an armadillo on the Interstate.

Also, all things considered, I thought Sothe's current position was an obvious joke, but apparently not. I guess even when I think it's been revealed my jokes are much too subtle, so let me say it straight: Sothe's current position is a joke. His real position would be somewhere in Top.

I'm not really an expert in this area, but I'm pretty sure that jokes are supposed to be funny, and I mean "funny ha-ha", not "funny-looking".

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm not really an expert in this area, but I'm pretty sure that jokes are supposed to be funny, and I mean "funny ha-ha", not "funny-looking".

Can your glib tongue help come up with another name for the highest tier (Haar, IkeT)?

As for the joke, since she took a line from one of your posts and stuck it on the tier list, that arguably made you the butt of the joke. The butt of a joke rarely finds a joke funny so...

[Interceptor]

Can your glib tongue help come up with another name for the highest tier (Haar, IkeT)?

Tier names are irrelevant. Substance over form, see: Skittles tier. Taste the rainbow.

As for the joke, since she took a line from one of your posts and stuck it on the tier list, that arguably made you the butt of the joke. The butt of a joke rarely finds a joke funny so...

Narga, we really need to get your name on the waiting list for a humor transplant. My post was a Modest Proposal of sorts. Making it a part of what it was mocking in the first place, is high praise.

[Narga_Rocks]

Narga, we really need to get your name on the waiting list for a humor transplant. My post was a Modest Proposal of sorts. Making it a part of what it was mocking in the first place, is high praise.

Modest Proposal? I took it more as a sarcastic comment that was intending to insult RF. Then she turned it around.

[arvilino]

A tier that would work for both Haar and Ike is Glass's Peerless swordmanship, since it suggests that they are extremely unmatched in what they can do as opposed to "easy mode" which like Narga said in a way makes it sound like Haar's combat is a good as Ikes.

[Fenrir]

This never happens in one turn. Cats are just more common in general, and Laguz movement in swamp sucks.

Also, all things considered, I thought Sothe's current position was an obvious joke, but apparently not. I guess even when I think it's been revealed my jokes are much too subtle, so let me say it straight: Sothe's current position is a joke. His real position would be somewhere in Top.

Below, Int words it better than I would have.

I knew you loved sothe alot. And i think you're in control of the tier again, and I could see that if people were blinded enough by some stupid P1 rush strategy... My bad.

You know what else never happens in one turn? Chapter 3-6. Sothe gets rolled by Tiger + a fist bump, and doesn't magically revive between phases. A pair of cats is the only combination of enemies that doesn't flatten him like an armadillo on the Interstate.

EDIT: And i saw this topic, it's much more possible to me that sothe is on top of a tier list than meg being a decent unit http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=28862&st=0

Edited December 29, 2011 by Fenrir

[Florete]

You know what else never happens in one turn? Chapter 3-6. Sothe gets rolled by Tiger + a fist bump, and doesn't magically revive between phases. A pair of cats is the only combination of enemies that doesn't flatten him like an armadillo on the Interstate.

Actually, he does magically revive: it's called Vulnerary and healing staves. You know, people complain about Sothe's durability in this map all the time (usually when arguing in a setting like this instead of when playing the game, though), so why is it never a problem for me, even without a transfer? Sothe is rarely the one dying on 3-6 for me even when he front-lines. Is my Sothe just abnormally good at dodging?

But I've said all I needed to say regarding the swamp, etc. I'm not going to have this Sothe-in-3-6 discussion again. It won't get anywhere.

[Dark Sage]

I also don't understand the whole complaint about Sothe needing his Beastkiller traded out. You have more than enough slots to fill all the tier 1 losers to trade out his weapon. If they die so Sothe doesn't, then it's worth the sacrifice since they're going to be picking their noses otherwise.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Gafgarion

[Aethereal]

Modest Proposal? I took it more as a sarcastic comment that was intending to insult RF. Then she turned it around.

When he put "Modest Proposal" I think he was referring to the essay by Jonathan Swift. If you don't know the reference, it's ridiculous, and over the top sarcastic. Just to try to clear that up. =X

[Interceptor]

Actually, he does magically revive: it's called Vulnerary and healing staves. You know, people complain about Sothe's durability in this map all the time (usually when arguing in a setting like this instead of when playing the game, though), so why is it never a problem for me, even without a transfer? Sothe is rarely the one dying on 3-6 for me even when he front-lines. Is my Sothe just abnormally good at dodging?

No, it's just that you don't even seem to realize why durability matters at all.

We don't care about how many hits someone dies in because dying is something that happens often, we care about it because of what has to be done to keep people from perishing in the first place. Such as using more healing resources, requiring inefficient positioning, clogging space with nobodies for weapon trades, etc. Not only is Sothe as fragile as a Fabergé egg, but he doesn't even have good offensive potential (Nolan) or utility/upside (Jill) to counter-balance the cost of dealing with his suckitude, making the whole endeavor a grand waste of effort and a net negative.

But I've said all I needed to say regarding the swamp, etc. I'm not going to have this Sothe-in-3-6 discussion again. It won't get anywhere.

The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.

When he put "Modest Proposal" I think he was referring to the essay by Jonathan Swift. If you don't know the reference, it's ridiculous, and over the top sarcastic. Just to try to clear that up. =X

Good to see that someone was paying attention in class.

[Anouleth]

Sothe has 'good offensive potential' too with Beast KIller. Certainly, Nolan isn't the only person who can orko with Beastfoe, while Sothe has perhaps the best offense on the team without the aid of skills like Wrath or Beastfoe.

[Bluedoom]

To add to that Nolan isn't generally a very durable unit. And he certainly won't have as much defence as Sothe if you don't give him a dracoshield... unless you were planning and giving Nolan as much exp possible.

EDIT: No I forgot Tarvos' defence boost. Nm my comment.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Marth

[Anouleth]

Also, Sothe can survive a tiger and a cat. He needs to gain 2hp or 1def, plus have the benefit of either an A defense support or a Dracoshield. Nothing amazing, certainly, but because Nolan is getting doubled by a majority of Cats, he needs the same thing.

[Mekkah]

If Nolan OHKOs with Beastfoe, getting doubled doesn't matter unless he misses.

[Colonel M]

Missing is also nearly irrelevant since Crossbow and Tarvos puts his accuracy at 100, or damn close, as well.

[Lord Raven]

it better be 100 because anouleth hates it when stuff is only close to 100

[Caliban of Sycorax]

I propose a renaming of "easy mode" tier. It was named this when it was just Ike(T), and Ike(T) is a walking Death God. He truly makes the game a cakewalk. You can point him anywhere and he won't die, nor will he have any trouble ORKOing everything (except SMs for a few chapters at the start of part 3). Now, granted, Haar deserves his spot above Ike. Flight is just that good. But a Death God he is not (outside part 2). He can die if you aren't careful enough. Heck, in 3-3 if you don't give him fortune he can get offed quite easily by 3 or 4 of the enemies in one hit (the elthunder jerks). Furthermore, even with the 2-3 speedwing he has many issues doubling in part 3 without some lucky speed procs. Basically, Haar doesn't turn the game into Easy Mode, he just happens to be the biggest contributor to an efficient playthrough. Hence his spot. But he's not a guy that you can just send anywhere to survive everything and kill stuff instantly. You could maybe call him NM, but he doesn't make enemies look like pathetic jokes. He arguably does that to some chapters, but that's only if you are actually good at the game. Only Ike(T) makes the game pathetic regardless of your skill level and only Ike(T) makes the enemy look pathetic.

The 2-E Nullify is basically uncontested for, and Haar really is the biggest beneficiary from it. Once he has that he laughs at Thunder Mages.

[Interceptor]

Sothe has 'good offensive potential' too with Beast KIller. Certainly, Nolan isn't the only person who can orko with Beastfoe, while Sothe has perhaps the best offense on the team without the aid of skills like Wrath or Beastfoe.

Sothe's offense in this chapter has all the power of a stale donut.

He ORKOs Tigers but doesn't OHKO them, meaning that not only does he take counters almost every single time from the most dangerous unit on the map, but it's very rarely safe to leave him exposed to one on Enemy Phase with BK equipped, even if he is at full health, because he's going to clear a hole and be killed if anything else steps in. Against cats, he again fails to OHKO but also can't ORKO them either because he doesn't double.

But wait, you say, doesn't this mean a tactical advantage for Sothe, since you can be assured that he won't kill a fresh cat that steps to him on Enemy Phase? Sorry Virginia, but Sothe with BK has around 25% listed crit on the laguz in this chapter, which is too low to be consistently useful but plenty high enough to randomly put Sothe in mortal danger as he kills a cat that you weren't expecting him to. Joy! He needs to have a weapon-swap butler glued to his stupid ass for the entire chapter just to keep him from accidentally offing himself, which generally results in him eating damage on Enemy Phase with no reply. So much for that offense!

Oh, by the way, Beastkiller has garbage accuracy, meaning that Sothe's limited contributions aren't even guaranteed. Heaven help you when his Bio drops to Bad or if there's something in a bush that needs to be stabbed, and his listed hit rate drops into Scarytown. Now not only do you need a pit crew to change his tires, but now you need a backup plan in case he whiffs and someone else needs to step in.

In related news, Nolan doesn't care if he gets doubled because nobody lives long enough to hit him twice, and Sothe is highly unlikely to be able to survive cat + tiger under any normal circumstances (I laughed out loud at Sothe getting an A defense support by 3-6, or giving him a Draco). Also, when I said "offensive potential" I wasn't even talking about this chapter. I was talking about potential in the following chapters, which is made possible by training in this one. Nolan and Jill both deliver dividends, which justifies putting up with their shortcomings here. Sothe delivers a steaming turd. Next up is a horde of beorcs that makes Beastkiller a Stiletto with bad accuracy, and then chapter 3-13, also known as "if you thought 3-6 was bad, watch what happens when there's nothing to slow down the laguz and no reeds to hide in, oh hey the laguz have also been hitting the gym and your typical support partner is forced out of range". And that's why we care about "potential", because Sothe has none. I didn't even get into the hilarious fun of being a Tier 2 unit in 4-P.

So in short, your complaints are not only rejected, they are tied to a rocket and fired at the Sun.

Anyone else care to come to the defense of this "Top tier" unit that spends 40% of his career being as useful as a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest? Come at me, bro.

[aku chi]

The 2-E Nullify is basically uncontested for, and Haar really is the biggest beneficiary from it. Once he has that he laughs at Thunder Mages.

Actually, a tier 2 Haar is still 3HKO'd (and, therefore, crit KO'd) by Thunder Sages even with Nullify. But the same can be said for Ike (who has similar HP, Lck, and Res). Thunder Sages are deadly.

[Interceptor]

Actually, a tier 2 Haar is still 3HKO'd (and, therefore, crit KO'd) by Thunder Sages even with Nullify. But the same can be said for Ike (who has similar HP, Lck, and Res). Thunder Sages are deadly.

And this is why that Pure Water from Part 1 isn't actually as useless as people think.