OMG it's a tier list

[Mekkah]

Haar below Ike has been argued well enough, but I'm having a hard time seeing him below Zihark. Maybe he can be argued below Leanne, since her Part 2 > his Part 2, and then he wins availability for Part 3 before Leanne shows up for one map, then goes away again...followed by Leanne probably being in the same army as Haar (Leanne is forced and Haar likes his deserts). And then in 4-E, herons >>>.

[Florete]

Haar below Ike has been argued well enough, but I'm having a hard time seeing him below Zihark. Maybe he can be argued below Leanne, since her Part 2 > his Part 2, and then he wins availability for Part 3 before Leanne shows up for one map, then goes away again...followed by Leanne probably being in the same army as Haar (Leanne is forced and Haar likes his deserts). And then in 4-E, herons >>>.

I think you're right. I put Leanne at the bottom of Top and Haar at the top of High. I think that sounds about right for now.

I thought Leanne might not deserve top at first, but when I consider how high Reyson is and the fact that he only has 1 more chapter and 1 fewer turn each chapter to do his Vigoring, plus the chapters Leanne is in specifically, I think it works out.

[Vykan12]

Also, does anyone else question Haar's placement? I'm finding it very tempting to move him down.

Certainly, although I think him getting the 2-3 speedwing is very likely, so by promotion he already has 26 spd, which combined with nullify (only people weak to bows really want this), makes him capable of soloing pretty much all of part 3. At the cost of 2 resources (though even just the speedwing would suffice), he's easily the best unit in part 3 thanks to being able to ORKO just about anything with a hand axe compounded with his amazing durability and movement capability. Because of being able to bless the brave axe, he only really dwindles in the very last chapter, which is maybe 5-8% of his total use.

That being said, I agree with Mekkah, I could potentially see him < Leanne.

[Progenitus]

I'd certainly say Haar > Leanne. Being the only flier for half of part 3 is uber raep, and when your other fliers in part 3 either have no 2-range + transformation issues (hawks) or suck (Tanith/Sigrun) or can't attack (Reyson, Leanne in 3-11), he's still incredibly useful. It also helps that he has 50 billion def and 2HKOs the entire map.

I don't see how Leanne can be better. 2-P Haar can solo it by himself if you wish, so I fail to see how Leanne wins that chapter. She wins 2-2. And then in 2-E Haar is arguably the best fighter (the only one who can compete is Elincia, but she's probably spending more time healing, and attacking with staves suck), and you don't have THAT many good fighters in 2-E (Haar/Elincia/Mordy/Nealuchi. Brom isn't too bad. Everyone else is really mediocre, or come halfway through the chapter and are still pretty mediocre).

And then she's only in one chapter in part 3, and that chapter has ballista/rock throwers, which severely limit where Leanne can go, while Haar's been pwning for like 8 chapters already.

She's got 4-P.

4-3 has bishops with siege tomes who one round her, so again she has to be careful or you have to make a special trip and have someone kill it off for her. Haar doesn't like them either but at least he doesn't get one rounded. In addition the amount of competent fighters you have is very limited because of the desert, and anyone not a laguz/flier/magic user is pretty much useless, so it's even more important that Haar can fight. It doesn't help that this chapter has quite a few 2-range enemies, which the laguz hate. Yes, desert amplifies Leanne's usefulness, but I feel it amplifies Haar's more.

And then 4-E, but taking her means you don't take Reyson who's definitely a better choice. Haar is not in the top 10 units I'd bring into 4-E, but I daresay the gap between him and that 10th best unit (the unit he'd be replacing if we took him in anyway) is smaller than the gap between Leanne and Reyson.

I don't see how that's better than stuff like being the only flier for half of part 3, and still being a great flier for the other half. Yeah Haar doesn't like thunder mages, but they don't come in groups so even if haar gets hit by one he's still not that worried, and he can sometimes OHKO them before they even attack (and there's nullify). There's also ways to get around his low spd; granted that's harder to do without hurting the team.

I'd also like to see the argument for Ike > Haar. I always thought that was debatable, but it seems like Ike > Haar was hammered in here.

Oh, and...

I thought Leanne might not deserve top at first, but when I consider how high Reyson is and the fact that he only has 1 more chapter and 1 fewer turn each chapter to do his Vigoring, plus the chapters Leanne is in specifically, I think it works out.

Reyson also has more move and can chant twice as many people per chanting turn, and for stuff outside 4-E or uses magic, he doesn't die when looked at funny. And for what it's worth, he starts with bliss.

I can't see Leanne in top at all. She's way too fragile and I feel she doesn't have the availability or usefulness to make up for it like Reyson can.

As a quick example, let's compare her to Ike, who is currently only one space above her in the same tier. Ike one rounds like the entire map and never dies, and does this for half the game. Does Leanne REALLY have that level of ridiculousness?

[Mekkah]

I'd also like to see the argument for Ike > Haar. I always thought that was debatable, but it seems like Ike > Haar was hammered in here.

In a nutshell from memory since I can't find the actual reasoning right now:

Prt 3

- Ike's combat is better in Prt 3, they both 2HKO about everything, but Ike's speed advantage allows him to actually ORKO more things.

- Ike has Earth affinity, which benefits his support partner more than whatever Haar has.

- Ike does not use up a Greil Merc unit slot, Haar does.

- Authority stars, I guess.

- Ragnell in 3-11 and 3-F is quite a bit more rape than anything Haar gets at that point.

To counter all that, Haar has flying.

Prt 4

- Much of the same as Prt 3 combat-wise until we hit 4-E.

- Ike, again, does not use up a unit slot in 4-E, which is even more significant than before.

- Ike has his own rape weapon, while others are quarrelling over Alondite/Vague Katti, or in Haar's case, Urvan. Which also doesn't have 2-range.

- Burger King, again more of an "I guess".

Haar still has flying, and there's his two Part 2 chapters in his favor, but I feel Ike has the upper hand, especially since Haar doesn't really speed up either map (due to their defensive goal) unless he goes and kills Ludveck in 2-E.

[Florete]

I'd certainly say Haar > Leanne. Being the only flier for half of part 3 is uber raep, and when your other fliers in part 3 either have no 2-range + transformation issues (hawks) or suck (Tanith/Sigrun) or can't attack (Reyson, Leanne in 3-11), he's still incredibly useful. It also helps that he has 50 billion def and 2HKOs the entire map.

I don't know where you're getting Tanith sucking from. She may not be as good as Haar, but she's still good.

I don't see how Leanne can be better. 2-P Haar can solo it by himself if you wish, so I fail to see how Leanne wins that chapter

How the hell does Leanne not win 2-P? Look at it like this: Haar is Haar for the last 4 turns. Leanne is Haar for those 4 turns as well, plus someone else for those 4 turns, plus two of the others for the previous 4 turns. Also, since Haar starts about as far away from the boss as possible, it's up to Leanne to get him there before turn 7.

And then in 2-E Haar is arguably the best fighter (the only one who can compete is Elincia, but she's probably spending more time healing, and attacking with staves suck), and you don't have THAT many good fighters in 2-E (Haar/Elincia/Mordy/Nealuchi. Brom isn't too bad. Everyone else is really mediocre, or come halfway through the chapter and are still pretty mediocre).

She still wins because she's still Haar + someone else (probably Elincia) every turn.

4-3 has bishops with siege tomes who one round her, so again she has to be careful or you have to make a special trip and have someone kill it off for her.

I'm pretty sure those can't one-round her if she's been sufficiently leveled, and they're probably more likely to hit someone else anyway, someone that's fighting. Canto exists for a reason.

In addition the amount of competent fighters you have is very limited because of the desert, and anyone not a laguz/flier/magic user is pretty much useless, so it's even more important that Haar can fight.

So it's also more important that Leanne is here, since she's all that's helping things get done with any speed.

Reyson also has more move and can chant twice as many people per chanting turn, and for stuff outside 4-E or uses magic, he doesn't die when looked at funny. And for what it's worth, he starts with bliss.

As a quick example, let's compare her to Ike, who is currently only one space above her in the same tier. Ike one rounds like the entire map and never dies, and does this for half the game. Does Leanne REALLY have that level of ridiculousness?

That's why she's still below them.

[Lord Raven]

Lets look at it this way.

Haar is Haar for 2-P, Leanne is Haar and Elincia (just a wild guess). That's cool.

Leanne is two units who have a tough time with enemy wyverns with high defense, and don't even do much damage to start. Until Haar comes in. Then she's Haar and another unit.

Then, Haar exists for the entirety of the GMs in Part III. Reyson can at least negate the availability gap with four units, as well as having somewhat stellar availability; Leanne is available for only one chapter and does well in that chapter (minus the stone throwers that kill her in two shots) whereas Haar is doing quite well for every other chapter. She does better in Part IV presuming you put Haar with the Silver Army, but she also has a Purge tome to fear in 4-3 (they both do, but I'd reckon they're more likely to snipe the one they can kill in one round) whereas Haar can take like one attack from it and still carry on fine.

Final Chapter, Leanne > Haar. But guess what? Haar's beating her in availability and his stellar use during the amount of chapters she has over her, and they all pretty much bear equal weight (although I'd argue the Part IV chapters hold a bit more weight - not enough to keep Leanne above Haar).

[Florete]

Leanne is two units who have a tough time with enemy wyverns with high defense, and don't even do much damage to start. Until Haar comes in. Then she's Haar and another unit.

I think you're underestimating Marcia and Nealuchi here. I don't have the numbers, but I'm pretty sure the two together can kill a Dracoknight. By the time Haar shows, I always have at least half the map cleared.

(although I'd argue the Part IV chapters hold a bit more weight - not enough to keep Leanne above Haar).

I'd argue that the part IV chapters help her case a lot because of the reinforcements + desert. Yeah, he rocks there too, but if you happen to have slow units, Leanne is the major boon.

[_____]

I think you're underestimating Marcia and Nealuchi here. I don't have the numbers, but I'm pretty sure the two together can kill a Dracoknight. By the time Haar shows, I always have at least half the map cleared.

On Hard Mode? Yeah, Marcia and Nealuchi can kill 1 Dracoknight per turn. Unfortunatly, that's all they're doing. They can only weaken on the enemy phase unless one of them pulls a critical, and Elincia is stuck healing. Leanne has to be constantly guarded because the enemies will easily grab her and take her away. Then, you have to waste another turn trying to kill the Dracoknight who took her. Also, Haar is assured to kill the boss. Btw, Nealuchi has transformation issues since you probably want to save that Laguz Stone of his for 2-E, where he can transfer it to someone who doesn't suck, like Mordecai.

[Florete]

On Hard Mode? Yeah, Marcia and Nealuchi can kill 1 Dracoknight per turn. Unfortunatly, that's all they're doing. They can only weaken on the enemy phase unless one of them pulls a critical, and Elincia is stuck healing. Leanne has to be constantly guarded because the enemies will easily grab her and take her away. Then, you have to waste another turn trying to kill the Dracoknight who took her. Also, Haar is assured to kill the boss. Btw, Nealuchi has transformation issues since you probably want to save that Laguz Stone of his for 2-E, where he can transfer it to someone who doesn't suck, like Mordecai.

It's all they need. That's 2 Dracoknight per turn with Leanne anyway, and protecting Leanne is pretty easy anyway since it's not like we're being swarmed. As for Nealuchi, one shot of Laguz stone isn't going to hurt anything later because you get another laguz stone, and Haar might show up by that time anyway.

[_____]

It's all they need. That's 2 Dracoknight per turn with Leanne anyway, and protecting Leanne is pretty easy anyway since it's not like we're being swarmed. As for Nealuchi, one shot of Laguz stone isn't going to hurt anything later because you get another laguz stone, and Haar might show up by that time anyway.

Um, actually, yeah, you do get swarmed. Dracoknights have a lot of move, and can easily reach Leanne if you're not careful. Nealuchi still loses his transformed state quickly.

[Florete]

Um, actually, yeah, you do get swarmed. Dracoknights have a lot of move, and can easily reach Leanne if you're not careful. Nealuchi still loses his transformed state quickly.

There aren't many enemies. You usually won't be facing more than two on any phase. And Nealuchi's gauge still gives him enough time for 6 rounds of attacking in the first 3 turns.

[_____]

As you move closer to the boss, you'll be facing more and more Dracoknights. He has a few guarding him, you forget.

Also, 3 turns is pathetic.

[Florete]

As you move closer to the boss, you'll be facing more and more Dracoknights. He has a few guarding him, you forget.

Also, 3 turns is pathetic.

So you're bringing in one every turn. How terrible./sarcasm

Considering he has a Laguz Stone and Haar comes at turn 4, I don't see much of an issue.

Are you trying to argue that Haar wins 2-P over Leanne? If you aren't, I see no reason to continue this.

[Vykan12]

I don't think the 4-3 purge bishop is really a bad thing for Leanne. She's helping other units reach that enemy sooner, and thus the 4-3 bishop is being a nuisance to other units (not just Leanne) for fewer turns. So I see it as working in Leanne's favor in some regards. Also, I didn't think of this before but Leanne comes for free in all of her chapters except for 4-E, so everything she's doing isn't even at the expense of a unit slot.

Ike's combat is better in Prt 3, they both 2HKO about everything, but Ike's speed advantage allows him to actually ORKO more things.

Again, if Haar gets the speedwing in 2-3, he can double just fine in part 3, and his flying generally has him accessing enemies much sooner than Ike is (3-4 and 3-7 come to mind). So, if Haar is 2 rounding enemies before Ike can even attack them, Haar is invariably doing better.

Ike has Earth affinity, which benefits his support partner more than whatever Haar has.

True I suppose.

Ike does not use up a Greil Merc unit slot, Haar does.

Also a valid point.

Authority stars, I guess.

This shouldn’t be credited towards Ike since you benefit from it whether he’s used or not. It’s like giving credit to Caneighis for getting you the Urvan, even though you don’t need to use him in any single chapter to make use of Urvan anyway.

Ragnell in 3-11 and 3-F is quite a bit more rape than anything Haar gets at that point.

No, not really. Haar has quite a deal more strength than Ike due to being promoted. Ike with the ragnell at max strength has 45 Mt whereas Haar has 44 Mt at --/20/4 with a hand axe. So, Haar’s still wins raw damage output if he’s using a short axe, a tomahawk or any 1 ranged axe. And just for kicks, Ike gets the ragnell at the bridge, a chapter practically designed to make fliers shine.

Ike has his own rape weapon, while others are quarrelling over Alondite/Vague Katti, or in Haar's case, Urvan. Which also doesn't have 2-range.

No, Haar quarrels over the urvan, a forged silver axe, a brave axe or a brave lance. Also, Ike wouldn’t mind using Urvan for the +4 damage, +8 when besides Nasir.

Burger King, again more of an "I guess".

Indeed. Plot related stuff is kinda irrelevant, otherwise Ike would be auto-top for being able to seize/arrive as a necessary function to advancing in the game.

Edited January 21, 2009 by Vykan12

[_____]

So you're bringing in one every turn. How terrible./sarcasm

Considering he has a Laguz Stone and Haar comes at turn 4, I don't see much of an issue.

Are you trying to argue that Haar wins 2-P over Leanne? If you aren't, I see no reason to continue this.

I was trying to point out that you were overrating Marcia and Nealuchi's preformance.

[Florete]

Again, if Haar gets the speedwing in 2-3, he can double just fine in part 3, and his flying generally has him accessing enemies much sooner than Ike is (3-4 and 3-7 come to mind). So, if Haar is 2 rounding enemies before Ike can even attack them, Haar is invariably doing better.

What if that Speedwing goes to someone like, I don't know, Ike? In fact, that's probably a better idea so that Ike is that much more likely to survive the BK fight so we can recruit Lehran.

I was trying to point out that you were overrating Marcia and Nealuchi's preformance.

And I showed that I wasn't.

[_____]

And I showed that I wasn't.

And then I countered.

[Florete]

And then I countered.

And then I re-countered, and you never countered back.

[Vykan12]

What if that Speedwing goes to someone like, I don't know, Ike? In fact, that's probably a better idea so that Ike is that much more likely to survive the BK fight so we can recruit Lehran.

Indeed, Haar needing the speedwing more than Ike is a disadvantage for Haar, moreso considering everyone else who could make use of one. But your counter-example is bizarre. Why would I pass on making Haar uber so that I could have an easier time recruiting a bottom tier character? Plus, there exists strategies to attack the BK without getting countered in 3-7.

[Florete]

Indeed, Haar needing the speedwing more than Ike is a disadvantage for Haar, moreso considering everyone else who could make use of one. But your counter-example is bizarre. Why would I pass on making Haar uber so that I could have an easier time recruiting a bottom tier character? Plus, there exists strategies to attack the BK without getting countered in 3-7.

A lot of my counter-examples are bizarre. I used that because it's a possible external effect of giving Ike the Speedwing and will have more of an effect on the game rather than just making one unit better. Lehran might only be around for one chapter, but the ability to double Auras is very nice.

Basically, the Speedwing could make Haar uber, but it could also make Ike more uber as well as make the final map slightly easier. I would never use this as an argument in Ike's defense, though.

[Mekkah]

Again, if Haar gets the speedwing in 2-3, he can double just fine in part 3, and his flying generally has him accessing enemies much sooner than Ike is (3-4 and 3-7 come to mind). So, if Haar is 2 rounding enemies before Ike can even attack them, Haar is invariably doing better.

That's an "if" though, since that Speedwing could go to some laguz like Mordecai for +4 Spd, or to whoever wants more Spd (it's the most important stat in the game after all). It should be considered, but not assumed. Flying, yeah, cool.

This shouldn’t be credited towards Ike since you benefit from it whether he’s used or not. It’s like giving credit to Caneighis for getting you the Urvan, even though you don’t need to use him in any single chapter to make use of Urvan anyway.

Really depends. Dudes in FE4 and FE5 get credit for their leadership all the time, though in FE10 they're different since they affect the whole map and are in effect either way, whereas in FE4 they are more like an auto-support bonus to others and in FE5 they only work when a character is fielded...and in fact, you could never kill anything with a leadership dude there ever, just use up a unit spot for him and have the leadership benefit.

It feels kinda counter-intuitive to not count it in Ike's favor though. Think of it: had Ike not been forced on every map he's available in, but still been giving out leadership bonuses, he would get credit for having a beneficial effect when fielded.

Come to think of it, another thing Ike has over Haar is that he cannot be left off, making the gap between using Ike and not using Ike bigger than it would be for, say, Mia or Gatrie. A used Ike is much less likely to die from random things and can help you kill more than an unused Ike. This is different from not taking up a unit slot, which is about limiting the amount of people you can field on a map and use to speed up/secure chapters. I hope you get my point since my wording sucks.

Though I think it's notable that Ike always benefits from his 3 leadership stars during Prt 4 while Haar doesn't if he goes with Micaiah.

No, not really. Haar has quite a deal more strength than Ike due to being promoted. Ike with the ragnell at max strength has 45 Mt whereas Haar has 44 Mt at --/20/4 with a hand axe. So, Haar’s still wins raw damage output if he’s using a short axe, a tomahawk or any 1 ranged axe. And just for kicks, Ike gets the ragnell at the bridge, a chapter practically designed to make fliers shine.

I suppose this is valid.

No, Haar quarrels over the urvan, a forged silver axe, a brave axe or a brave lance. Also, Ike wouldn’t mind using Urvan for the +4 damage, +8 when besides Nasir.

This too.

Indeed. Plot related stuff is kinda irrelevant, otherwise Ike would be auto-top for being able to seize/arrive as a necessary function to advancing in the game.

Ike fighting the Black Knight is done in gameplay, not in plot. Using Ike before 4-E-2 has the advantage of speeding up 4-E-2 as well as reducing the chance of a Game Over, due to his offense and defense increasing.

[_____]

And then I re-countered, and you never countered back.

Because you started this pointless side-conversation.

[Vykan12]

That's an "if" though, since that Speedwing could go to some laguz like Mordecai for +4 Spd, or to whoever wants more Spd (it's the most important stat in the game after all). It should be considered, but not assumed. Flying, yeah, cool.

I know, I know. What I meant is if Haar gets the speedwing, he’s undoubtedly better, otherwise he’s arguably slightly worse. What value the first conditional holds compared to the second is of course debatable, but since it’s an intelligent use of resources with great returns, I think it’s certainly realistic (maybe 50/50 territory or higher).

It feels kinda counter-intuitive to not count it in Ike's favor though. Think of it: had Ike not been forced on every map he's available in, but still been giving out leadership bonuses, he would get credit for having a beneficial effect when fielded.

I don’t see much value in hypotheticals that cannot be realized. One could just as well say something like “If the GMs didn’t have Gatrie, Titania and Haar, Oscar would be top tier”. I don’t actually mean that, it’s just an example.

Come to think of it, another thing Ike has over Haar is that he cannot be left off, making the gap between using Ike and not using Ike bigger than it would be for, say, Mia or Gatrie. A used Ike is much less likely to die from random things and can help you kill more than an unused Ike. This is different from not taking up a unit slot, which is about limiting the amount of people you can field on a map and use to speed up/secure chapters. I hope you get my point since my wording sucks.

Yeah I get it, if you don’t use a certain unit, you can replace them, whereas you lose a unit if you don’t use Ike. The thing is, this isn’t a “who’s used” tier list, it’s about determining who’s the most useful. So Ike could be used sparingly instead of not at all. In fact, the average player might only use Ike sparingly in part 3 because of how fast he caps his level, though that sounds like a “don’t use Ike, eh steals exp” kind of argument, so I’m reluctant to pursue that one any further.

Though I think it's notable that Ike always benefits from his 3 leadership stars during Prt 4 while Haar doesn't if he goes with Micaiah.

Tibarn gives 20 however, and leadership bonus doesn’t really give Haar anything he wants since 15 avo and hit isn’t doing much for a physical tank.

Ike fighting the Black Knight is done in gameplay, not in plot. Using Ike before 4-E-2 has the advantage of speeding up 4-E-2 as well as reducing the chance of a Game Over, due to his offense and defense increasing.

We’re talking about maybe saving 1 turn between using Ike seriously and not so seriously since the hammer has the power of a one hit wonder . Plus, you’re likely looking to kill as many enemies as possible with the rest of your units, so intentionally sacrificing turns is actually a realistic strategy if your units are in need of any further development.

[Progenitus]

Prt 3

- Ike's combat is better in Prt 3, they both 2HKO about everything, but Ike's speed advantage allows him to actually ORKO more things.

- Ike has Earth affinity, which benefits his support partner more than whatever Haar has.

Both true (the offense moreso).

- Ike does not use up a Greil Merc unit slot, Haar does.

You rarely have a chapter in part 3 where you could actually benefit from an extra slot, because GM chapters are pretty generous in that regard. The chapter with the lowest deployment count is 3-7 and 3-11 (you can deploy 8 units of your choice, +whoever is forced).

Let's take 3-7 as an example. We have 8 units of our choice, plus Ike/Ranulf. That's plenty enough for whoever you're training for part 4 + Heather, considering the hawks join on turn 2. You really shouldn't be training more than 6-7 other units, otherwise you'd be spreading your EXP pretty thin. Sure, fewer units means you have less units around to weaken stuff so your main party can get the kill, but that shouldn't be significant since those filler units will start falling behind by then anyway.

- Authority stars, I guess.

- Ragnell in 3-11 and 3-F is quite a bit more rape than anything Haar gets at that point.

I won't say anything on this since Vykan pretty much said what I'd say.

Now I noticed you brushed aside Haar's flying very casually. Let's go over, very briefly, what utility flying gives Haar in part 2/3.

- Freely fly from different floors in 2-E. Although I suppose this is more useful for Elincia/Marcia, since Haar's better off just god tanking all the generals on the right side.

- Fly over the swamp and thicket mess in 3-2.

- Fly over fences and thickets in 3-3, and set supplies on fire far earlier than anyone else on the team.

- Fly up the cliffs in 3-4 and hammer the generals that are blocking the way. I assure you, attacking generals with a 2-range weapon up a cliff is a huge waste of time.

- Unobstructed by the water in 3-7.

- Does not end his turn on a lava tile as often as Ike, thus does not suffer 10 damage as often either.

- Not affected by trap tiles in 3-11, and can hover over one to let others pass through safely, and can fly over the walls.

And of course any canto abuse I didn't mention.

In addition, more mobility in general means that Haar can reach enemies earlier than Ike. Let's say that on some particular turn, Haar can reach an enemy immediately, while Ike needs to take 2 turns to reach it. Now let's say Haar 2-rounds while Ike one rounds. If you notice, the enemy dies at the same time. Haar reaches the enemy on turn 1, then finishes it off on turn 2. Ike reaches the enemy on turn 2, and finishes it off on turn 2. So even though Ike has better offense, it doesn't necessarily mean he's killing enemies faster. (Yes, I know there are situations where one rounding is better than two rounding but reaching the enemies earlier, but that's obvious anyway)

- Ike, again, does not use up a unit slot in 4-E, which is even more significant than before.

Sure

However it wasn't that significant to start with.

- Ike has his own rape weapon, while others are quarrelling over Alondite/Vague Katti, or in Haar's case, Urvan. Which also doesn't have 2-range.

All this really means is you have less gold. I could, for example, forge an uber axe for Haar so he'd be similar in offense (minus the whole ike doubling and Haar not of course). I can't say gold is much of an issue by 4-E though because you have so much to work with. A max mt hand axe has just 4 less mt than Ragnell, before any possibility of coin bonuses, and you can even give it more hit/crit than Ragnell if you have the money.

And flying is still very useful, especially in 4-3/4/5. 4-3 is of course the desert. 4-4 has lots and lots of ledges, and Haar takes no move penalty crossing them. And 4-5 is the swamp. 4-P and 4-2 have a ton of thickets/trees too. Speaking of which, Haar has more flexibility here because he can go with any team you want, while Ike is locked to one party. There are lots of defensive tiles in 4-E which Haar can canto onto, giving him nice boosts more often than Ike will get them.

The reason why I support Haar > Ike is because Ike's lead is largely because of his spd and ability to double, but that just essentially means you're saving 1-2 speedwings by using Ike instead of Haar. Which is nice of course. But Ike can never fly. He can never pwn stuff like 3-3 and 3-4 and 4-3 like Haar can. In general, there are very few units who can even fly, and the ones with good stats are laguz who have obvious problems, and most flying beorcs lose to haar by quite a bit. On the other hand, you have a bunch of units who have Ike's uber offense or something close to it (e.g. Titania, Gatrie, etc.) Haar is more irreplaceable than Ike is. That's why I would rank Haar > Ike.

I don't know where you're getting Tanith sucking from. She may not be as good as Haar, but she's still good.

Hope you didn't dodge the main point on purpose.

By the way, Tanith is indeed not that good. Her bases are mediocre (they're roughly what Oscar had 10 chapters ago, when Oscar was good but not great) and her growth spread is only decent. In terms of combat, her only saving grace is affinity, which still takes several chapters to build, which is pretty sucky. She's saved from the lower tiers because she flies.

She still wins because she's still Haar + someone else (probably Elincia) every turn.

The problem is she can't be haar + someone else without Haar, and that would be counting Haar's usefulness.

Without Haar you'd be losing a good fighter. Without Leanne your best fighters lose some turns, but they (Haar especially) do most of the work on enemy phase anyway, so losing some extra player phases doesn't hurt much. Say we gotta have someone tank that general swarm in 2-E. Without Haar, good luck at that because your best tanks are laguz (Mordy/Nealuchi as avoid tank) and no 2-range. Without Leanne, you can have Haar plug that hole, but he loses some extra player phases that Leanne could've given him. But at least you get the main job done, which is plugging that hole.

I'm pretty sure those can't one-round her if she's been sufficiently leveled, and they're probably more likely to hit someone else anyway, someone that's fighting. Canto exists for a reason.

No, I'm pretty sure they'd be one rounding her. At level 15 (extremely high for Leanne, since her base level is 5, unless you want to BEXP her for some strange reason), she has 31 HP/15 res. I'm certain the bishops break 30 att.

"Canto exists"? Yeah she only has 5 move untransformed (we all agree that Leanne smoking grasses is stupid because she just gets +1 move). She can't canto far. And these guys one round her. It's a lot different than getting 2+ rounded with canto, since the latter aren't shaking in their boots the entire time and can move into the bishop's attack range.

So it's also more important that Leanne is here, since she's all that's helping things get done with any speed.

Again, you actually need the uber units on the team for the herons to actually chant them. Without Haar, Leanne would not be able to chant him at all. But without Leanne, Haar just loses a few player phases. You can still get a lot of things done with Haar, it just goes a little slower. Again, a lot of work is done on enemy phase.

let's say that Haar is going to tank 4 enemies on enemy phase. He'll get a swing in on all of them. And on player phase he swings at 1 enemy of his choice. Now without Leanne, that's 5 attacks. With Leanne, that's 6. Leanne only increases the number of attacks he does by 20%, and NOT this 100% that people like you seem to be assuming about dancers. Using Leanne doesn't mean you get 2 separate Haars that you can spread around the map and tank two different places at once. It means Haar gets a few more extra attacks.

In most cases, having the best units move again is better than using another unit that is inferior. That's why the herons are above a lot of combat units. But when we start getting to the best of the best, I'd much rather take the combat unit than the heron.

That's why she's still below them.

But she's in the same tier, and she's DIRECTLY below them, which means she has to be at least comparable. And she's not. Reyson and Ike beat her down. That =/= top tier to be able to hang out with them. Usually a unit that is below another in the same tier is more the case of "this unit is comparable, but loses by a small amount, and is inferior". This is a case of "Reyson/Ike smash her handily".