OMG it's a tier list

[Progenitus]

So here's a list of things the DB might want to buy, from aimee's bargains alone...

1-4

Javelin/hand axe for sure, since this is the first time they're buyable, and they'll definitely come in handy for 1-5 where we can abuse ledges. Beast killer as well, since that's what makes Sothe so good in this chapter. There's a mend too, which is an idea, though we can wait until 1-6.

Total cost: 600 + 625 + 1200 = 2425

1-5

Wind edge is definite. The other stuff aren't really necessary, unless you really like +2 mag.

Cost: 700

1-6

Javelin and hand axe are available again. We might want to buy them, since otherwise we'll have to wait until 1-8 before we can buy another, and 1 javelin/hand axe lasting for 1-4, 1-5, 1-6-1, and 1-6-2 sounds very improbable. We definitely want the mend now, since we have 49 HP Volug, and even our usual 35 HP Sothe who's likely hitting single digit HPs now because he's no longer godmode, and Laura healing for ~20 HP with heal isn't going to cut it.

Cost: 600 + 625 + 1000 = 2225

1-7

We probably want another wind edge again since the 1-5 one probably broke. I guess the other stuff aren't necessary unless you really like +2 skl.

Cost: 700

1-8

Olivi grass is obvious. We can also get another set of wind edge/javlein/hand axe. I suppose the wyrmslayer isn't necessary. And I'll assume that the grass is the only thing we buy.

Cost: 1600

1-9

Nothing worth noting. However, if we're dumb enough to throw a seal on Ilyana, we might be short, since the master seals we can normally get are annoying to obtain (1-4 master seal needs to be picked up, but items are scattered all over the place in this chapter, so we might skip it to save some turns. The 1-5 seal pulls Sothe away from the main action. 1-6-2 seal is like in the middle of nowhere. This leaves us like, the 1-7 seal. The point is, if we have the gold to spare, we definitely want to buy a seal, since it'll help us save turns in the other chapters from having to get them. I'll assume we won't buy the seal, but this certainly has to be kept in mind, in case we're throwing a seal on Ilyana for no reason.

1-E

Olivi grass is obvious, and another master seal is on sale. We might want to get another set of wind edge/javelin/hand axe as well.

Cost: 1600 + 700 + 600 + 625 = 3525

3-6

There's a lot of stuff that sound really good. Physic is obvious. Torch is definitely handy for this chapter. Storm swords are nice because they can't be bought and wind edges can't be forged. We probably want the short axe/spear as well, if only for 3-12 because we have some people who can abuse the ledges. We want the beast killer too, since the one we bought in 1-4 isn't going to last both 1-4 and 3-6.

Cost: 3750 + 1000 + 4000 + 1200 + 3000 + 1500 = 14450.

3-12

We'll want a beast killer for 3-13. Otherwise nothing worth mentioning.

Cost: 1200

3-13

Physic is on sale again. So is a storm sword. Short spear/axes are on sale again, and we have even more ledges to abuse so they sound pretty good too. There's also Thoron/Tornado/Blizzard, although that depends if we're using Soren, which isn't likely, so I'll assume we'll only buy the blizzard (for Sanaki to bless in 4-E-3).

cost: 3750 + 4000 + 3000 + 1500 = 12250

So, Aimee's bargains alone come out to 39075. This is completely ignoring any forges, plus just standard weapons to buy (like iron sword).

As for the gold we have, the DB start with 5k. Base convo in 1-5 gives 10k. Base convo in 1-6 gives 1k. Base convo in 1-9 gives 10k. 3-12 convo is 10k. This only comes out to 36k gold, which is already short of the 39075.

Even if we were to knock out the storm swords, short spears, and short axes in part 3, this only drops the cost to 22075, and I really see no reason why to knock out all of them, especially the storm swords which aren't buyable.

And then forges.

A max mt iron axe is 1400 gold, 1750 for a sword, and 2100 for a lance, and this is just maxing out the mt. We might want to add hit and/or crit too. We might also want to forge a knife for Sothe. And then in 1-E we can forge steel weapons, which is important because these forges have to last for all of part 3, so we'll need to forge several copies while we have to opportunity. Even for someone like Nolan who has Tarvos, he wouldn't mind a steel forge for 1-E where Tarvos isn't available, and for the forge to be a backup weapon in part 3 in case he wants to preserve Tarvos' uses.

Even if the DB have more money than the GMs to spare, they can't just give away everything they have. They have their own things they want to buy.

What did you use for that calculation? I'm pretty sure only the weapon itself is made cheaper. The forging changes still cost the same. The percent increases are based off the original price, not the half price item.

Really? That sounds odd. Would someone like to double check?

The majority of the DB gets 2 shotted by the laguz, so can't afford to open a space up. So they don't want forges/resolve/adept.

You won't get overwhelmed by laguz to the point that someone might actually die as long as you kill them off in an orderly fashion (aka better offense).

Are you telling me you actually have people die on you in 3-6 or 3-13? 3-6, where you have the swamp and laguz have like 1 move in it, and on the other side you have tons of thickets to abuse? 3-13, where you have tons of chokepoints and ledges to abuse?

[Vykan12]

He can't do that early on. At base level he only has 31 att with a hand axe, which is like Mia's att, who's 3-4HKOing. Maybe after they're forgable, which is still not available until halfway through part 3.

It improves pretty quickly. Just 4 levels and an A support gives him 36.4 atk, which is borderline on 3-5 warriors and probably plenty of other stuff. His 60% str growth, eventual promo gains and the existence of forges also boost him in that area, not to mention short axes/tomahawks before forges come in.

[Narga_Rocks]

Really? That sounds odd. Would someone like to double check?

I think the best we can do is put it on the board, maybe in a new topic where someone might actually read it who is near 3-2. Possibly put it on gamefaqs, if they aren't too busy rping. Then simply have someone use the silver card to forge something with like +3 mt, then do the same thing without the card and compare.

I doubt many people here have a save in late part 2 or before 3-2.

You won't get overwhelmed by laguz to the point that someone might actually die as long as you kill them off in an orderly fashion (aka better offense).

Are you telling me you actually have people die on you in 3-6 or 3-13? 3-6, where you have the swamp and laguz have like 1 move in it, and on the other side you have tons of thickets to abuse? 3-13, where you have tons of chokepoints and ledges to abuse?

I don't have people die in 3-6 except once. That was human error, though. But the laguz have this annoying habit of moving untransformed.

As for 3-13, yeah you only need two people who can live if you want to play it super conservatively, I suppose. Vykan might want to storm Ike, though.

But that's without Adept potentially screwing up my plans.

And ledge abuse in 3-13 isn't for making a hard chapter easier, all it does is help boost the levels of DBers you might want to keep using. 3-13 shouldn't really be considered for taking money from the gms because the gms could really use those forges. Really it's the same with 3-12. They don't need those super expensive weapons. You can get it done with just using a bit of walling and stuff. The GMs make much better use of forges than the DBs make use of these expensive weapons.

I definitely approve of two physic staves, the blizzard, a silver dagger or two (one for Heather to steal in 3-7), the torch staff, and even two torch items for fiona and meg to use. I don't remember if I got anything else in part 3.

Oh, probably the 3-6 beast killer, too, but that's pretty cheap.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

I don't have people die in 3-6 except once. That was human error, though. But the laguz have this annoying habit of moving untransformed.

As for 3-13, yeah you only need two people who can live if you want to play it super conservatively, I suppose. Vykan might want to storm Ike, though.

But that's without Adept potentially screwing up my plans.

Zihark did perfectly fine for me, and I kept his adept on him. Hell, the only other thing I threw on him was cancel (he only had B Nolan for 3-6, and I didn't give him any other skills). I didn't use him to wall in 3-13 (I did for 3-6, I just had him by the water), but he was good when it came to killing stuff off, and he was busy nearly every turn.

I don't see how people think adept is actually bad for the DB. Sure if you're dumb and throw adept onto a guy who's going to be tanking with 20 laguz backlogged. While we're at it, let's throw Laura into a group of enemies.

And ledge abuse in 3-13 isn't for making a hard chapter easier, all it does is help boost the levels of DBers you might want to keep using. 3-13 shouldn't really be considered for taking money from the gms because the gms could really use those forges. Really it's the same with 3-12. They don't need those super expensive weapons. You can get it done with just using a bit of walling and stuff. The GMs make much better use of forges than the DBs make use of these expensive weapons.

The reason why we want to get as much exp from 3-13 as possible is so that the DB we're using in part 4 aren't underleveled pieces of crap and can actually be used to bolster our forces, since we DO have three teams to use, and the GMs we're using alone won't fill all the slots. Not to mention that if you kill off enough laguz, you might actually be able to reach Ike without getting swarmed and kill him off to end the chapter earlier.

Ditto for 3-12, except using stronger weapons means we kill faster, which means we get the chapter done faster, since we have to kill 40 enemies to complete it, which is easier if we have better weapons.

It improves pretty quickly. Just 4 levels and an A support gives him 36.4 atk, which is borderline on 3-5 warriors and probably plenty of other stuff. His 60% str growth, eventual promo gains and the existence of forges also boost him in that area, not to mention short axes/tomahawks before forges come in.

...

He can't do that early on. At base level he only has 31 att with a hand axe, which is like Mia's att, who's 3-4HKOing. Maybe after they're forgable, which is still not available until halfway through part 3.

Edited July 12, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Vykan12]

@Narga: I skipped responding to a lot of your points because the arguments were getting to be extremely tangential. I think I could shave off some irrelevant content from this post, but 3 pages in word isn’t too bad.

*Stuff about Ulki and adept/tear*

I don’t get people who think 2 rounding is bad when you have both huge move and durability to compensate. Here’s an example of where 2 rounding Ulki > 1 rounding Gatrie:

Gatrie moves ahead 6 spaces, which puts himself inside the attack radius of 1 enemy. Ulki moves ahead 9, which puts him in the attack radius of 3 enemies. On enemy phase, Gatrie killed 1 enemy (100% damage) while Ulki did say 60% damage to 3 enemies (180% damage).

Next player phase, Gatrie might get a kill while Ulki grasses, but now Ulki’s compounded his movement so he’s still facing more enemy phase targets, and thus is still leading in damage output despite 2 rounding.

Factoring in the occasional 1RKOing from various skills is just icing on the cake to cement that offensive lead. Ulki doesn’t require it to win in the first place.

Neph can get three levels out of bexp, assuming she has above 50 after 2-2, anyway.

You made a case about crowning certain units would hurt them in the long run, how would this be any different? You’re cutting a 350% growth spread down to 300, and what’s worse is it’ll skew away from some of the things she needs like str/def.

Still, the silver greatlance weighs 17 and will likely have more mt than a forge (unless you get an axe card and put it on hers).

The silver greatlance isn’t a serious weapon choice, its accuracy just fails that hard. Assuming --/7/0 Neph, she has 125 hit, and part 3 enemies have 50+ avo. With low bio, that could equate to 65 display hit, which is obviously problematic.

For the record, I acknowledge you said this yourself, I just wanted to give it some perspective.

This is also one of the few shots at Purge, so unless you want to have 5 uses the entire game (the 3-13 purge), or till 4-E-3 anyway, it isn't pointless to steal it.

You seem to be quite the completionist in this game. What good is stealing a purge tome aside from some extra firepower in 4-E-3? You’d probably spend more time getting the tome than you’d save reaping its benefits.

I know you don't like Jill in HM, and I don't like Zihark for endgame, but why not Nolan?

Well if you don’t like Zihark in endgame and Nolan supports Zihark, you have a bit of a problem :P

The real problem though, one which is universal to the DB, is under-levelledness.

Nolan lv 20/20/5: 55 hp, 30 str, 31 AS, 24 def, 19 res, 104 avo

Boyd lv --/20/10: 64 hp, 38 str, 29 AS, 28 def, 14 res, 94 avo

I used Boyd as comparison since it’s convenient (both are from the same class), though you could compare Nolan to most other GMs and find similarly large statistical gaps.

Though really, the thing that sticks out most to me is Nolan’s damage issues. With a silver poleax, he only has 48 atk, which doesn’t even ORKO higher levelled halbs in 4-4, no less anything in 4-E.

Anyways, I never said that our 4-E line-up was purely GMs and royals, I said it was mostly them. Nolan could prove to be an exception to the rule.

Or Volug will have SS going into part 4 while most other laguz would be lucky to have it by 4-E-2.

Even a lv 30 Volug only has 49 atk with SS strike. Obviously he isn’t gaining 15 levels in 10 chapters (I didn’t even manage that and I gave him paragon in 3-6), so his atk will be even lower than 49 and he won’t have a mastery.

Marcia isn't liked on this board, but she has 34 spd by level 20/9 and it is simple to get her much past that by 4-E-5 …

Marcia’s problems aren’t her AS, it’s her atk (and many other things like availability). I’m not sure how you can get her to --/20/9 in 4-E without some really hefty favoritism, but I’ll pretend she’s --/20/15 in 4-E-5 just to be nice. Now she has 28 str, which is only 50 with the wishblade. Putting her besides Nasir means she only does 20 damage to corner auras and 40 to side ones (a 5/3HKO respectively). Adding in her fire support wouldn’t really change that either. Now backtrack to 4-E-1 with a silver forge or something, and now her atk is in the low-mid 40s. That’s what Janaff would’ve had at base level with an energy drop, so it’s obviously not doing well a full part later.

Calill has a much easier time doubling than any other mage and will also reach 31 spd by 20/9, having enough by the auras easy.

Similar to Marcia, where are you getting this insane amount of levelling from? Calill starts at --/6/0 and has 6 chapters before 4-E (2-E, 3-9, 3-11, 3-E, 2 part 4s). Even giving her 2 levels per chapter wouldn’t get her to third tier in time.

Just saying there is plenty of units that will allow you to not be stuck with 4 or 5 units that need brave weapons we don't have enough of.

Brave weapons have fierce competition in 4-E. It’s not just the people who don’t double spirits/auras who want it, everyone does. Let’s say you have 52 atk with a brave weapon and 63 with an SS one. Against a side aura, the brave does 88 damage while the SS one does 66. For the corner ones, it’s 48 vs 46 (+2 for the brave), though the gap grows back to 22 if parity is used.

The same logic applies to Nasir as well. Anyone with AS falling between 34 and 39 wants to be beside him, and that is basically true of most units you’re likely to deploy.

In most maps if he is way ahead then he is being attacked by 4 or 5 guys. That isn't a good thing while untransformed.

You could kill all but 2 of those guys before choosing to revert.

If Oscar has a forge he does loads of damage. Only something ORKOing will do more.

The solution would obviously be to weaken his forge or trade him a weaker weapon for enemy phase use.

Yes. There are things to disarm/steal.

Ok, so now we’re relying on a slim chance to disarm Zihark in addition to having a terrible combat tag along with the main group. Sounds reasonable to me. /sarcasm

[Zkirsche]

Even if the DB have more money than the GMs to spare, they can't just give away everything they have. They have their own things they want to buy.

Whatever, that'll mean Ilyana has more room for the adept and resolve, unless you think we should sell such valuable skills?

Are you telling me you actually have people die on you in 3-6 or 3-13?

Yeah, Aran died on my HM run. It's the FoW, it makes life a pain. If on the enemy phase you kill an enemy laguz and another walks out from the fog, it's not hard envisioning people dying.

[Shadow Mir]

Really? That sounds odd. Would someone like to double check?

I forged a max Mt Steel Sword with the Silver Card, and the final price came out to be 2400 gold. Without it, it would've been 2800. So yes, the forging changes still cost the same.

[Zkirsche]

2400 gold.

2800.

cost the same.

Wtf?

The silver card appears to know 50% off the price even in forges. A max MT steel sword usually costs 2000 gold more than a normal one (250% more), but that sword appears to have only increased by 1600 gold, or 200% more than the original price.

[Sasori]

Well i'm kind of new to the whole tier list thing but should't Illyana be lower she steals exp from the dawn brigade, bad growths and caps and no matter how much you train her in part 1 she still is the worst unit in greil mercenary by join time. The only thing she is good at is killing dragons.

[Zkirsche]

She's not too bad in the DB and she's quite comparable to Leo in part 4. Though I can't see why Vika is worse than her.

[Sasori]

She's not too bad in the DB and she's quite comparable to Leo in part 4. Though I can't see why Vika is worse than her.

Yeah but she has no durability and she is at level 1 sage max when she arrives in part 3. She will probably never dubble and even risk getting dubbled when she joins again.

[Narga_Rocks]

(Jump to the end for why Mia > Gatrie, for anyone who doesn't care about all the crown Gatrie stuff and brave axes in part 4 and whether Gatrie > Hawks)

@Narga: I skipped responding to a lot of your points because the arguments were getting to be extremely tangential. I think I could shave off some irrelevant content from this post, but 3 pages in word isn’t too bad.

I tried just responding to what you said. If some of it was tangential, oops.

I don’t get people who think 2 rounding is bad when you have both huge move and durability to compensate. Here’s an example of where 2 rounding Ulki > 1 rounding Gatrie:

Gatrie moves ahead 6 spaces, which puts himself inside the attack radius of 1 enemy. Ulki moves ahead 9, which puts him in the attack radius of 3 enemies. On enemy phase, Gatrie killed 1 enemy (100% damage) while Ulki did say 60% damage to 3 enemies (180% damage).

Yeah, that only applies though if you can't get Gatrie more enemy phase exposure. It never happened to me very often, and while admit it happens sometimes I think at worst it evens out, and at best it lands in Gatrie's favour over time.

Next player phase, Gatrie might get a kill while Ulki grasses, but now Ulki’s compounded his movement so he’s still facing more enemy phase targets, and thus is still leading in damage output despite 2 rounding.

I'm still not sure how slow this is going if Ulki moves ahead 9 squares and is only in range of 3 enemies. From what I've seen it's more like Gatrie gets in range of 3 or more, Ulki gets in range of 6 or more. Ulki can't do that for long.

Factoring in the occasional 1RKOing from various skills is just icing on the cake to cement that offensive lead. Ulki doesn’t require it to win in the first place.

If you somehow face those numbers of enemies, sure.

You made a case about crowning certain units would hurt them in the long run, how would this be any different? You’re cutting a 350% growth spread down to 300, and what’s worse is it’ll skew away from some of the things she needs like str/def.

Well, that depends on how long you are looking to use Neph and how hard it is to bring her up. Frankly, I'll suffer the extra 1.5 stats to make her easier to raise, even if I'm taking her to endgame. The reason it hurts others more is because they are already easy enough to raise so they don't need a boost.

The silver greatlance isn’t a serious weapon choice, its accuracy just fails that hard. Assuming --/7/0 Neph, she has 125 hit, and part 3 enemies have 50+ avo. With low bio, that could equate to 65 display hit, which is obviously problematic.

For the record, I acknowledge you said this yourself, I just wanted to give it some perspective.

Yeah, it's a stupid weapon. I'm not sure if we get more out of selling it. If it was worth more than 1440 sold I'd sell it, but 1440 isn't much.

You seem to be quite the completionist in this game. What good is stealing a purge tome aside from some extra firepower in 4-E-3? You’d probably spend more time getting the tome than you’d save reaping its benefits.

I really don't think I spend more time getting it. One turn at most, and that applies to all but the 1-E Meteor (which I think costs more than 1). In fact, if you abuse Heather's str to be able to get the 3-2 Bolting and 3-5 Meteor those don't even cost an extra turn if you do it right. I don't really think the 3-10 purge does either, simply because you have to kill the things anyway and having Heather and Haar and Gatrie be 7 panels further in on enemy phase simply means I'm starting the killing in a different place.

It isn't extra firepower in 4-E-3, that can be accomplished with Micaiah's from 3-13. It is for having it at other times. Extra shots are extra shots.

Well if you don’t like Zihark in endgame and Nolan supports Zihark, you have a bit of a problem :P

Don't support him with Zihark? He gets to 3HKO from Tigers a few levels earlier with a def support anyway. And he doesn't suffer much losing a support for a couple of chapters in part 4 if you aren't using the guy who gave the def support.

The real problem though, one which is universal to the DB, is under-levelledness.

Nolan lv 20/20/5: 55 hp, 30 str, 31 AS, 24 def, 19 res, 104 avo

Boyd lv --/20/10: 64 hp, 38 str, 29 AS, 28 def, 14 res, 94 avo

I used Boyd as comparison since it’s convenient (both are from the same class), though you could compare Nolan to most other GMs and find similarly large statistical gaps.

Though really, the thing that sticks out most to me is Nolan’s damage issues. With a silver poleax, he only has 48 atk, which doesn’t even ORKO higher levelled halbs in 4-4, no less anything in 4-E.

Yeah, except when he is doubling things that Boyd isn't he does much better damage despite being underleveled. I've always thought that made Nolan and Jill worth the effort.

Anyways, I never said that our 4-E line-up was purely GMs and royals, I said it was mostly them. Nolan could prove to be an exception to the rule.

Even a lv 30 Volug only has 49 atk with SS strike. Obviously he isn’t gaining 15 levels in 10 chapters (I didn’t even manage that and I gave him paragon in 3-6), so his atk will be even lower than 49 and he won’t have a mastery.

Yeah, lacking a mastery might not be good, but he might have a pretty epic support. Still though, I brought him up because I think he's decent enough in the db chapters. I don't actually take laguz to endgame that aren't royals, and I still haven't ever brought more than 1. I just like having 2 range, I guess. Well, obviously I bring Reyson and the dragons, but I mean of the things I have a choice on.

Marcia’s problems aren’t her AS, it’s her atk (and many other things like availability). I’m not sure how you can get her to --/20/9 in 4-E without some really hefty favoritism, but I’ll pretend she’s --/20/15 in 4-E-5 just to be nice. Now she has 28 str, which is only 50 with the wishblade. Putting her besides Nasir means she only does 20 damage to corner auras and 40 to side ones (a 5/3HKO respectively). Adding in her fire support wouldn’t really change that either. Now backtrack to 4-E-1 with a silver forge or something, and now her atk is in the low-mid 40s. That’s what Janaff would’ve had at base level with an energy drop, so it’s obviously not doing well a full part later.

Why is she attacking auras without dragons? She has two range and canto. It is rather easy to have her attack with dragons and then someone else come in to help. Plus she should've capped a few things and come close to levels during endgame for bexp to boost the str a bit. And if you are talking energy drop Janaff, why can't Marcia get one? Though I still think with proper bexp timing she can cheaply be brought to respectable str.

Look, a 32 mag Calill and a 29 str Marcia both with A support with anyone have 53 mag mt w/ Nasir and 63 mt with both dragons. And they both double auras. With 30 def and 40 res or 40 def and 30 res, if they attack the same aura it dies.

That isn't exactly difficult to reach. And why 3 dragons for Marcia? Canto. If you set it up right, the canto crew can waltz by and attack a fair number of auras and Shinon can finish things up with three range. And since Nasir will be right there Calill can join in. It is easy to 2 turn with enough canto users and 34 speed people. Didn't even much need the dragons on turn 2 except for 1 and a bit auras and Ashera herself.

And it'll likely take paragon in a chapter, sure. I'm just saying it doesn't take much. Paragon benefits anyone but a lower leveled unit gains more extra levels from paragon than a higher leveled unit and some of those higher leveled units take far more levels to attain the speed requirements along the way. (In other words, they won't get that speed regardless, unless they have paragon for a lot of chapters and get a lot more kills than the other units you're bringing to endgame)

Similar to Marcia, where are you getting this insane amount of levelling from? Calill starts at --/6/0 and has 6 chapters before 4-E (2-E, 3-9, 3-11, 3-E, 2 part 4s). Even giving her 2 levels per chapter wouldn’t get her to third tier in time.

20/9 by the auras? I think it's doable without even any paragon. I got her to 20/18, and that was I think 2 chapters of paragon, namely one in part 3 and one in 4-E somewhere. Without Paragon I don't see why she'd drop more than 9 levels.

Brave weapons have fierce competition in 4-E. It’s not just the people who don’t double spirits/auras who want it, everyone does. Let’s say you have 52 atk with a brave weapon and 63 with an SS one. Against a side aura, the brave does 88 damage while the SS one does 66. For the corner ones, it’s 48 vs 46 (+2 for the brave), though the gap grows back to 22 if parity is used.

The same logic applies to Nasir as well. Anyone with AS falling between 34 and 39 wants to be beside him, and that is basically true of most units you’re likely to deploy.

And you can do that (Nasir) in 4-E-5 with almost everyone wanting to attack auras every turn, as long as you have a bit of canto.

As for brave weapons, they can be traded around against the auras pretty easily, especially if those brave users are Haar and Titania, what with Canto. Besides, 4-E-5 is two turnable without brave weapons depending on the party. It all depends on the party.

You could kill all but 2 of those guys before choosing to revert.

explain?

The solution would obviously be to weaken his forge or trade him a weaker weapon for enemy phase use.

But then I'm doing less on enemy phase. If I had someone who didn't care about a support or someone with a good support partner, then I'd do more that enemy phase than I would with Oscar around.

Ok, so now we’re relying on a slim chance to disarm Zihark in addition to having a terrible combat tag along with the main group. Sounds reasonable to me. /sarcasm

What are we disarming Zihark for? I never asked you to steal one of his swords. Plus, we need all the coins we can have if we want truly epic forges, and there's one of those along the way that we don't have to waste 3 turns or more getting. And if you try on the storm sword guy, the wyrmslayer guy, the physic users, you are bound to get one. It isn't like Ike cares he isn't killing stuff, or as if we don't have enough followers to finish them off afterwards. They'll thank Ike for not killing the guys. Plus Z and Jill can't equip the silver dagger she's stealing from him or Jill so that doesn't need to be disarmed, and now she's less useless in 3-10 while waiting to steal the physic staff. If we go with ~17 str and an A support, she's looking at 31 mt with it. That's 2RKO (4HKO but doubles) on lots of stuff. Still blows chunks against generals, but the idea is she can now finish any kill with someone else that 2RKOs (except generals, of course, and the rare dragonmasters). Not so terrible anymore. And she'll actually get 100% hit rates without needing a forge.

Oh, one last thing.

If Gatrie getting the crown is so harmful, and his movement so bad, then why not Mia > Gatrie?

Since he no longer doubles, she does more damage. Even if we take away Adept and Ike support since Gatrie lost his crown.

Mia with a critforge has >40% chance of killing. Gatrie with a forge has ~10%. Gatrie with a killing axe has ~25%. Not to mention either way if Mia doesn't kill the thing and Gatrie doesn't kill the thing she does more damage thank to doubling, except Generals.

If we take away special weapons, Mia has >15% of killing. Gatrie has 0. Mia still does more with her steel blade than Gatrie does with his steel poleaxe when she doesn't kill.

2 range. Okay, so now Gatrie does damage and she does less, if not none. I propose none. Mia isn't likely facing all that many situations in which she's not able to go against more 1 range guys than 2 range guys. And she has a better chance of killing the 1 range guys than Gatrie. Until Hand axes are forgeable (which I think happens at least 1 chapter after javelins are, by the way) he is now doing even less damage to those 1 range guys than he already was and has a 0% chance of killing.

Durability.

Think movement. Mia has 1 more. Apparently Gatrie's 6 move and higher cost through thickets prevents him from ever facing more than 2 guys in an enemy phase. At least if you read the examples you guys give about how his superior offence with a crown isn't so superior. So Mia is never dying enemy phase since she is 3HKOd pretty soon in part 3 and only faces 2 guys per phase, Gatrie's better concrete durability is irrelevant since he can't use it ever or else it is apparently slowing us down, at least according to some. And since Mia dodges a bunch she won't likely need healing too much more often than Gatrie.

So their durability is approximately tied and her offence is far better.

Then comes part 4 where she can actually ORKO more things with just a silver forge in 4-4 or the vague katti (which Zihark doesn't want because it lets him ORKO nothing and a silver forge at least lets him have a better crit rate).

And since Gatrie apparently can't even double in part 4 (from what you guys say) even when he gets a crown, then how bad will it be when he doesn't? He won't have as much time to build a level or two in part 3.

So she does far more damage in part 4 and now has an even higher crit chance thanks to mid 30s skill and +20 crit. So she's likely looking at 30% crit rate or more (for at least one crit in 2 attacks, thanks to doubling) without even getting crit on the forge.

So she beats him in 1 range offence forever and eventually gets access to a tempest sword and can crush him on 2 range sometimes.

Plus she has like 7 wt. Easy to shove, easy to ferry. Gatrie on the other hand has 25 wt. Can't be shoved by anything but transformed Tibarn, Tigers, and Lions. An entire 2 guys in part 3, by the way. And one of them is in Low tier. And only Haar and paladins can pick him up and canto in part 3, add transformed Tibarn in part 4. Even the pegs can't, since their wt is mid 20s. Tigers (and Lions in part 4) can take/drop, true, but they can't pick him up and run, so it is limiting. Transformed Ranulf might have enough wt to take/drop, I think he has low 30s or high 20s, so it should work. But his transformation gauge makes it rather limiting when he can do it. In part 4, transformed Nailah and Volug can also rescue/take/drop but not shove, and can't do anything untransformed.

Basically, she beats him pretty badly if he is crownless.

With a crown he might edge her a bit, but then she can get Adept and Earth and will basically not be killable at all and has more move to actually use that durability and offence. And she has a huge kill rate of 70% with her crit forge equipped, and forges and killer axes still don't help him against her. And she has 100% ORKO on swordmasters forge or no forge, something he can't say no matter what he does. So she loses a bit against generals, she wins so much more against everything else. (Btw, in a lot of maps she'll have 4HKO on generals, so her crit rates still give her a good shot at killing them, and once she gets the vague katti or a silver forge she's basically looking at 3HKOing generals, so adept works wonders again.)

Especially once part 4 roles around and he is apparently no longer doubling anymore, and she continues to double everything and cause massive damage to everything not a general while having huge kill rates on everything. And she is awesome with parity against corner auras in conjuction with Tibarn (w/ the other parity). And doubles all spirits and doesn't take a brave weapon away from anyone.

So basically, why not Mia > Gatrie?

(Most people probably knew I would try this eventually.)

Edited July 12, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

I had something posted, but I accidentally closed the window, and I'm too lazy to retype it.

Basically, you're seriously overestimating Mia's durability. Her hit rates in like half of part 3 chapters (before she gets the earth support up, and even after that, we have chapters like 3-11 where enemies have decent hit) is like what Zihark is facing in part 3, except Zihark has an easier time limiting the number of enemies he faces per turn because DB chapters are chokepoint central and GM chapters generally aren't, and Zihark's teammates aren't even doing significantly better than him so we shouldn't really be faulting him heavily for that (even though everyone does), while Mia is definitely losing by a metric ton because Gatrie has 50 billion def. Like, the highest att enemy in 3-2 aside from the hammer enemy is a 38 att dragonmaster that still leaves Gatrie with like 5 HP after 3 hits. The number of physical enemies that can deal double digit damage to him in that chapter I can count on one hand. Even sages in general aren't very threatening because they do <15 damage to him, and Mia has even less HP/res than Gatrie anyway.

So what does everyone think about Boyd vs Soren, and that Boyd should really move down?

Edited July 12, 2009 by smash fanatic

[grandjackal]

So what does everyone think about Boyd vs Soren, and that Boyd should really move down?

Considering your whole point was that Boyd has enemy phase limiting his durability, which one just ignored that it means Boyd is able to do more overall on a turn?

[Progenitus]

Considering your whole point was that Boyd has enemy phase limiting his durability, which one just ignored that it means Boyd is able to do more overall on a turn?

...huh? What?

Boyd gets 3HKO'd and takes *player* phase counters, and Soren gets 2HKO'd and generally doesn't. How is this a significant advantage for Boyd? If the rest of the team was getting 2-3HKO'd then it would be useful, but we have tons of tanks like Gatrie and Haar and Ike and whatnot, so what's so special about being able to take an extra hit when you're taking that extra hit already on the player phase?

It changes when hand axes are forgable and Boyd can 2HKO at 2-range, and later gets more durability so he's not 3HKO'd, but I still don't see how Boyd should be a whole tier above Soren, since Soren has his own advantages too (can BEXP abuse, staves, superior affinity).

[grandjackal]

...huh? What?

Boyd gets 3HKO'd and takes *player* phase counters, and Soren gets 2HKO'd and generally doesn't. How is this a significant advantage for Boyd? If the rest of the team was getting 2-3HKO'd then it would be useful, but we have tons of tanks like Gatrie and Haar and Ike and whatnot, so what's so special about being able to take an extra hit when you're taking that extra hit already on the player phase?

It changes when hand axes are forgable and Boyd can 2HKO at 2-range, and later gets more durability so he's not 3HKO'd, but I still don't see how Boyd should be a whole tier above Soren, since Soren has his own advantages too (can BEXP abuse, staves, superior affinity).

Well I CAN agree that they shouldn't be that far apart, I can't agree him below Soren. But I won't say any more on the deal, so I'll just slowly back out of this one.

[Vykan12]

Wait, Boyd is in upper mid, above Naesala AND Mordy? I agree, he should drop a few spots.

[-Cynthia-]

Well I CAN agree that they shouldn't be that far apart, I can't agree him below Soren. But I won't say any more on the deal, so I'll just slowly back out of this one.

I generally don't find "aren't that far apart" arguments terribly convincing. There's a pretty big difference between getting 3-4RKOd and 2RKOd(sometimes ORKOd), not to mention Boyd can use Killer Axes/Bonds for crit and Hammer to kill pesky Generals(IE can gain more offense/avoid counters). Boyd eventually grows into a good unit (more Spd growth, Spd cap that doesn't suck), Soren really doesn't-- he's not doubling and not escaping 2RKOs.

I don't see how Boyd>Mordy though.

Edited July 13, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Progenitus]

Well I CAN agree that they shouldn't be that far apart, I can't agree him below Soren. But I won't say any more on the deal, so I'll just slowly back out of this one.

I never explicitly said that Soren should be above Boyd, but the problem is that Soren has an *actual* argument to be better than Boyd, which is proof that one of them is off.

I generally don't find "aren't that far apart" arguments terribly convincing.

Sometimes, but in this scenario I don't see how Boyd is that much better than Soren. When an argument is somewhat debatable, you know the two units need to move closer.

There's a pretty big difference between getting 3-4RKOd and 2RKOd(sometimes ORKOd), not to mention Boyd can use Killer Axes/Bonds for crit and Hammer to kill pesky Generals(IE can gain more offense/avoid counters). Boyd eventually grows into a good unit (more Spd growth, Spd cap that doesn't suck), Soren really doesn't-- he's not doubling and not escaping 2RKOs.

The problem is that Boyd is taking counters on player phases very often while Soren generally won't. So if Boyd's getting 3HKO'd and Soren is getting 2HKO'd, after the player phase both are getting 2HKO'd.

having the ability to take an extra hit would be important if the rest of the team was getting 3-4HKO'd, but that's not the case (Gatrie/Ike/Haar/etc.), so there's no big advantage Boyd gets from having Mist/Rhys heal him after the player phase to prepare him for the upcoming enemy phase, since you can always just have those other people tank in place of Boyd. It's not like, say, Nolan vs Leo, where Nolan gets 3HKO'd and takes counters while Leo gets 2HKO'd but doesn't, because very few people are escaping the 2HKO (limited to Nolan/Aran/Sothe, until Volug joins in 1-5), so it's not like I mind having Laura heal Nolan after he attacks something so he can be ready for enemy phase.

Killer axes/hammers are fought over by every axe user, so that's not a big advantage. The actual ability to use them is better than not being able to, but Soren just does more damage to generals tahn boyd does with a regular axe/forge, so I'm inclined to have them cancel each other out.

Boyd has the higher growth, but Soren gains levels a bit faster (he starts 3 levels lower. And then when he gets staves, he has two exp pools to boyd's 1), and then Soren can BEXP his spd in tier 2 because he's sitting around with 3 capped stats by 20/10, which will also boost his other stats, and their base spd is the same, so Boyd's never much faster than Soren, if at all.

Caps are a very minor advantage at best. Boyd doesn't even reach 33 spd (1 point higher than Soren's cap) until level 17-18, and he only caps 3 stats at level 15 so it's not like we could BEXP abuse him earlier to get it higher. Similarly, he won't even reach 23 spd (Soren's 2nd tier cap) until level ~19, and again he's garbage at BEXP abusing.

Also, if you say Soren is "sometimes ORKO'd", Boyd is sometimes 2RKO'd. Swordmasters are just as likely to double him as they do Soren, plus it takes 37-38 att to 2HKO base Boyd (the same to OHKO base Soren).

Edited July 13, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Colonel M]

Well... we could start with Naesala > Boyd since I don't think too many people are going to argue against it.

[grandjackal]

Personally, I could see him above Keiran and Geoff. However, if we're gonna go one by one...

[Florete]

I'll lower Boyd, although I'm not sure if he should go down to Mid just yet.

[Colonel M]

IIRC Interceptor grudgingly argued Boyd up, so perhaps hearing from him first would be a good idea.

[Narga_Rocks]

I had something posted, but I accidentally closed the window, and I'm too lazy to retype it.

Don't blame you. Don't think I'd retype in that situation either.

Basically, you're seriously overestimating Mia's durability. Her hit rates in like half of part 3 chapters (before she gets the earth support up, and even after that, we have chapters like 3-11 where enemies have decent hit) is like what Zihark is facing in part 3, except Zihark has an easier time limiting the number of enemies he faces per turn because DB chapters are chokepoint central and GM chapters generally aren't, and Zihark's teammates aren't even doing significantly better than him so we shouldn't really be faulting him heavily for that (even though everyone does), while Mia is definitely losing by a metric ton because Gatrie has 50 billion def. Like, the highest att enemy in 3-2 aside from the hammer enemy is a 38 att dragonmaster that still leaves Gatrie with like 5 HP after 3 hits. The number of physical enemies that can deal double digit damage to him in that chapter I can count on one hand. Even sages in general aren't very threatening because they do <15 damage to him, and Mia has even less HP/res than Gatrie anyway.

I think you are missing one of the main points I was making. It's fine, while it wasn't meant to be subtle it also wasn't meant to be too direct. And it wasn't directed at you. You weren't the one saying interesting things about Gatrie's enemy phase exposure.

While I do think that Mia has a chance at truly being better than Gatrie, I'm not really saying it is as clear cut as I was making it out to be. I was just pointing out the ramifications of certain ideas other people had in the Gatrie vs. Hawks thing.

If at some point I feel like making a more in depth argument about Mia v. Gatrie that goes into her potential against Gatrie's real potential, and if at that point I think I can make a good case for it, I will.

Until then, if so many people believe what they are saying about Gatrie against the Hawks, then it doesn't matter that Gatrie has way more concrete durability than Mia. She doesn't even need the <20% listed hit rates against her that she gets with Ike support. All she needs is 3HKOness, which she achieves in just a few chapters and already has initially against many anyway. If Gatrie never faces more than 2 enemies per phase because of movement like the others are suggesting, then Mia doesn't need to be exposed to any more. Letting her be attacked by just two enemies every enemy phase means she'll never die. She should have ~40% hit rates or less against her without Earth so she doesn't even need to be healed every turn. She'll need healing more often than Gatrie, but her offence over his non-crown offence more than makes up for needing to be healed every other turn instead of every 4th turn. Plus every third healing, or maybe even every other healing, she can use a vulnerary instead of Mist or Rhys and still have more total offence than Gatrie, easily. Plus we can then put forth the crazy idea of Soren getting the 3-3 crown and state that Mia puts even less strain on the healers since we can have 3 if we want.

That's the point. In truth, I'm too lazy to form an argument for Mia > Gatrie that deals with reality so I'm just operating under the conditions that have been put forth by others. If those conditions are accepted, then Mia > Gatrie, if those conditions are not accepted, then Gatrie > Hawks because his movement can no longer be considered a hindrance for enemy phase exposure, and crowning can't be used against him too much.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

I wanna say Taur's better than Boyd, but I also feel Taur's better than all the people between them. Perhaps they should change places?

I mean come on...No way in hell Mist, Marcia and whoever the other guy was between them are as useful as Taur. Marcia's at best an endgame unit, and Mist is just a healer who can take a shot, and can't be crowned for her horsie until part 4 anyways. Taur on hte other hand has plenty going for him, like not dying so damn easily, easy crowning, able to put Imbue to good use, being damn helpful to the DB...

Methinks him and Boyd should just switch places.

As for Heather...she basically only can steal. Her offense and durability are balls, and her affinity's none too helpful. It nabs you nice prizes, but it hardly makes up for Taur being a capable guy in his time of glory, which is part 1, 3, and arguably bits of part 4 pre-endgame.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf