OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

I'd imagine paragon in 3-13 is rather easy for Fiona. The real question is 3-12. Besides, those #RKOing is after giving Lyre the energy drop. I know you were just responding to Red Fox of Fire, but did you read the numbers I gave for a dropless Lyre? Not good. We could give Fiona a drop and max the mt on her forge and her numbers would significantly improve. Why am I not trying? She needs it less than Lyre does. That alone should say something.

I accepted that she needs an energy drop.

Fiona also desperately needs that seraph robe Redfox gave her, otherwise she is easy pickings.

Well, she likely needs the robe to at least survive if she misses, I don't know about the whole energy drop vs. robe thing, though. Micaiah and Jill would like the DBs, and Jill is better than Fiona will ever be and is made more usable in part 1. Red Fox started that thing, so she can defend it.

But i was planning to replt to you, hence the whole "I'll edit this in a sec" thing at the end.

Sorry about that.

Mia with Adept and a critforge has >70% chance of killing warriors/halbs/snipers/paladins. Not sure if she 3HKOs dragonmasters, but wyrmslayer is ORKO anyway. Generals are 4HKO by mid part 3, maybe sooner, so she's still pulling around 35% to 40% chance to kill them with just the critforge. To train Lyre, she can use a normal sword, but unless we want to make her offence worse the entire map you can't just not let Adept activate for a few attacks. Shinon is less good than certain other units because of his enemy phase, doesn't mean he can't do pretty well on the player phase. Plus all the GMs we are using are trying to gain exp, so it isn't even remotely the same thing as forcing Zihark to use a normal sword to help train Fiona in part 1.

Adept has a 51% chance of activating anyway, which is quite good. So yeah, we can train Lyre up.

I'm confused. I guess you mean Mia will still leave enough things alive?

What? What? Since when did Zihark/Nolan/Aran/Sothe/Micaiah stop caring about levelling up? Thier not Nailah. Their not gods, they need the level-up's to survive in part 4. The GM's need much less to do so.

You don't like Jill, do you? My point is Zihark/Tormod/Vika and any other units that are basically just there but don't really need the part 1 exp either because they get so little (Zihark) or because they aren't going to be around for long. Even Sothe likely doesn't really need it. So it's basically 4 of Nolan/Jill/Aran/Ilyana/Micaiah/Fiona. We likely aren't raising more than 4 units successfully at once in HM, and Fiona is one of them. Really I'd be willing to give Lyre the win just because she prevents me from training 1 of those units that I'd be able to train without Fiona there. I think I punish more for that type of thing, though, so I'm at least going to say what I can for Fiona. Anyway, the DB need the exp desperately, but there are few of them so it's simple enough if you give up on training too many tier 1s.

Not until 3-11. 3-E is kinda short, like 6 turns or something, and Fiona could promote during 3-6, or you could just give up and seal her for 3-12 if she's like lvl 18. Or give her a fair amount of bexp to combat all that Lyre took in order to consistently double. There are ways to make sure Fiona has paragon for 3-12 and 3-13. If you send over the paragon to the GMs with Ilyana, you are basically giving up on any of the DB members reaching a respectable level in part 4, so that's a high cost for Lyre getting paragon in the rest of her chapters.

By giving Fiona paragon in 3-13/3-12, we're stopping other units getting it too.

One of the DBs can still take it in 3-6. It at least saves one of them. That's my point. There are some high speed cap units in the DB that will actually reach it, so getting at least one a better level is useful.

Why? It's free. I've already said why being free means more for her than other skills for others. Same with vantage for Mia. Vantage isn't actually very good in this game, so I really don't think it's worth 10 capacity. Fortunately, Mia gets it for free. Same with Saviour. It can be nice at times, so it's an advantage for Fiona, but is it really worth the 10 capacity others pay for it? Imbue is worth 15, so is it really worth Titania not being able to use anything else but Miracle? As for Lyre, she has higher mag for part 3, but Fiona catches up eventually. I can't really defend Imbue as easily as saviour.

Doesn't matter, Lyre can still use it better in part 3. Thus it should be transferred to her as Lyre appreciates teh defensive boost.

The only reason I can't counter that is that it still leaves her or other beast laguz 15 more capacity for something else. Lyre could have paragon and imbue, or imbue and pass, or imbue and adept (if she ever reaches 3HKOing) or something fun like that. Even with the free Imbue, Fiona is only getting 20 capacity, so like 5 more than Lyre. I'd like to be able to defend the imbue thing more, but I don't think I can. Maybe Red Fox can come up with something.

But just think about Imbue, Pass, Saviour, Canto. Lyre can't do that. A Hawk could if you don't give them Tear, because (70 - 15 =)55 capacity is enough with 15 to spare. But Fiona can have her mastery too. Just saying she can pick something up, rush in, get attacked at full stats, heal a bit on player phase and drop the unit, and even a physic from Mist would be enough to heal her up to full in conjunction with imbue, or she might not even need a healer's assistance.

Depends on who you are. Facing hit rates in the low 30s suddenly dropping to the teens is better than 2 def. Facing hit rates in the 60s dropping to the 40s is not better than 2 def. Don't know how that plays out for Fiona and Lyre and their partners all the time.

Considering the DB face high Hit laguz, the def matters more.

For part 3, I'd likely have to agree with you. Except Lyre isn't exactly there and once they are together in part 4 Earth has improved much. I think only Nolan actually cares about the def boost. A 20/1 Jill with a seraph robe has only 36 hp and 17 def and a B level support. Even a thunder/water/light support only gets her to 36/19. Even a draco shield on top of it all means only 36/21 and still 2HKOd by tigers. Aran is fine by 20/2 a fair amount of the time, so I'm not sure he'd care about getting +3 def over +2 def through supports. I don't know if anyone aside from Nolan actually cares about the def boost in part 3.

Really, the main issue with Fiona and supports is that she's only got accelerated support growths with Aran, Micaiah, and Laura. Tauroneo doesn't count since they aren't in any of the same chapters in part 1, Danved doesn't count because, duh, and ditto Pelleas. Then she's not getting to C until 3-6 anyway, and B for 3-13. Then an A for 4-3/4/5. Not great.

Still, Lyre is looking at Kyza, Lethe, and Mist. Aside from Lethe, I'd imagine 2 chapters per support level is good for her with anyone as well, and Mist and Kyza are easier to grow than the others. So C for 3-8, B for 3-11, and A for 4-P/1/2. With effort, Lethe could pull it off sooner, but a Lethe Lyre pairing is +2 def, +27 hit, +8 avo, giving neither the +mt they would most appreciate. Mist x Lyre could maybe work, and with healing it might be possible to accelerate it to an A by 3-10, though 3-11 is more likely because of the nature of 3-4. Still, neither are doing very well supportwise. Lyre might be doing slightly better, but not by much.

Well, no bexp boosting despite what Lyre needs off the bat, likely not killing something almost every turn. I'm not sure how much exp Fiona should get, so I'll leave that up to Red Fox of Fire.

Ok, let's give her enougth bexp to get her from level 9 to level 11 (2100. There is less bexp in part 1, though, and the units need it more). Enemies in 1-7 are level 15 ish, so Fiona gets 12 exp per attack, 32 exp per kill (lol). A level is 1 kill + 6 attacks or 2 kills + 3 attacks. Okay, Okay, perhaps level 13 was harsh. Level 15 shouldn't be though, and considering what was lost through the bexp, it's probably similar to a level 13/0 Fiona is anyway.

I don't know. Through two levels of bexp we basically lose 1.2, although it isn't that simple. Still, even if she just gets spd, def, lck, and loses out on 1 str and some other things, it could be worth it. And she's likely not getting spd, def, lck both times. Her growths are reasonably close so hp or res could easily happen, and maybe even str or skl. Or simply boost her to ~80 in 1-7 and ~80 in 1-E and that saves a few necessary attacks. Then we don't have to worry about the loss of stats. Still, I'm saying level 14 or 15. And it'll cost some bexp, but going by 80 each at level 9 and level 12 she's looking at 1680 or something. She takes a fair amount, but I think it compares somewhat evenly to what Lyre is taking between forcing 24 spd for 3-4 and possibly 26 spd for 3-8.

All I'm asking for is level 15, which makes it easier to promote before 3-12. That's it.

[Florete]

Shinon has fail enemy phase. Noone ORKO's SM's save Mia, Mia relies on crit too much to reliably ORKO.

Shinon can still kill practically anything on the player phase, though since the DB was lowered to weakening for her, the GM's can also be lowered to weakening for Lyre and it'll cancel out.

No, but Lyre can use paragon.

...Okay? Fiona's offense can still be fixed at a lower cost. Lyre's 35% Str growth combined with her constantly lower experience gain will hurt her a lot. If we're still giving her that BEXP level so she can actually double in 3-4, it'll take her until ~21 to get another point in Str, and by then she's leveling like a tier 3 unit. Even with Paragon her experience gain will be low.

I'm sorry, I missed the meeting where it was decided that 15 avo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 def.

Wait, are you assuming Lyre gets an Earth support or something? I guess you can with all we're throwing on these units, but then the Lyre favoritism is going to stack even higher than Fiona's.

Or maybe you were just assuming that Lyre's Thunder is actually better than Earth, which is wrong. In other words, if Fiona had Thunder, she'd be better, which is wrong. Two Def wouldn't stop most units (like Zihark and Edward) from being 2HKOd by 3-6 Tigers, so avoid is much better for them.

The majority of the enemies are around level 7 in 4-2. A 20/3 Fiona gets 22 exp per attack because (47-23)/2 + 10 = 22. Per kill it's 22 + 24 + 15 = 61 exp. So to get that ~12 levels per chapter, Fiona needs to make ~9 kills + 3 attacks, or ~5 kills + 25 attacks. Considering that an enemy phase for Fiona is practically suicide, this isn't really possible.

Your problem is that part 4 enemies count as tier 3 for experience gain purposes, so the experience gain is quite a bit higher. And this doesn't look like i included Paragon.

I accepted that she needs an energy drop. But i was planning to replt to you, hence the whole "I'll edit this in a sec" thing at the end.

I never planned on giving Fiona an Energy Drop. That's the beauty of forging.

EDIT: Read that wrong, never mind.

Fiona also desperately needs that seraph robe Redfox gave her, otherwise she is easy pickings.

An Energy Drop is more valuable than a Seraph Robe, though. Only a few units (Like Jill and possibly Micaiah) get significant boosts from Robes, but Drops can make almost any units offense shoot, like Edward, Jill, Leonardo, Shinon, Mia, Nephenee, Rolf, Oscar, Marcia, and in part 4, Volug, Ranulf, the Hawks, and more. Saying she desperately needs it doesn't count for much when Lyre desperately needs a more valuable resource.

Also, the DB alone gets 2 Seraph Robes, so someone else on the team can still get one.

What? What? Since when did Zihark/Nolan/Aran/Sothe/Micaiah stop caring about levelling up? Thier not Nailah. Their not gods, they need the level-up's to survive in part 4. The GM's need much less to do so.

When did he mention any of those other than Zihark? And in my earlier comparisons, I only used people who likely don't need it. Micaiah can be capped out by now, or at least probably doesn't need any more leveling because Mag caps fast and her durability is forever unsalvageable.

By giving Fiona paragon in 3-13/3-12, we're stopping other units getting it too.

It doesn't prevent people from getting it in 1-E and 3-6, though.

Doesn't matter, Lyre can still use it better in part 3. Thus it should be transferred to her as Lyre appreciates teh defensive boost.

"Use it better" is a bad way of putting it. I could say Mordecai uses a Dracoshield better than Mia because he gets +4 instead of +2, but that obviously makes no sense. In other words, just because Lyre recovers more from it for a time doesn't actually mean she uses it better, just to a different effect. And "using something better" never entitled anyone to anything yet, just meant they were more likely to get it in a comparison not involving that character. For example, if we tried to give Oscar Adept in an Oscar vs. not Mia debate, it would be mentioned that Mia is more likely to get it, but Mia isn't always entitled to it either.

I'd say Fiona uses it better anyway because she can use it for the duration of a map, so in the end she'll have probably recovered a greater % of her HP than Lyre. And of course, it's free for her.

In the end it doesn't really matter because Fiona and Lyre won't actually be used in the same playthrough, so Lyre can get it and it won't matter for Fiona because Fiona's not even being used, or Fiona can keep it for the same reason.

Ok, let's give her enougth bexp to get her from level 9 to level 11 (2100. There is less bexp in part 1, though, and the units need it more). Enemies in 1-7 are level 15 ish, so Fiona gets 12 exp per attack, 32 exp per kill (lol). A level is 1 kill + 6 attacks or 2 kills + 3 attacks. Okay, Okay, perhaps level 13 was harsh. Level 15 shouldn't be though, and considering what was lost through the bexp, it's probably similar to a level 13/0 Fiona is anyway.

The only BEXP I gave her was enough so she could get a level on her first fed kill, so 680 given your kill gain numbers. Or less, since that was probably with the boosted numbers.

And I don't know where you're getting that we don't even acquire 2100 BEXP in part 1. I know we won't be getting it all, but there's 3175 available by 1-7 alone.

Supports I guess could factor in...Lyre can supply someone with a delicious thunder affinity. You might say Earth is better, but when exactly is she kicking in a support? She doesn't have a lot of time, nor a fast build-up with any DB units that stick around. Lyre's got two, Kyza and Ranulf. Ranulf would love the extra durability, and Kyza would love the faster defensive boost. Granted, KYza sucks, but a support is better than none. Besides, part 3? How much is Earth really helping anyone? It barely is able to help Nolan and Zihark, who are double-goddamn-earth. Lyre's defensive boosts for the GM would be quite a bit more definitive.

Minor point I know, but...

This is kind of a longshot, but since we have to kill feed these units, the chapters they're on will ultimately take longer to beat, making supports build faster, so Fiona might actually have a B at 3-6 as it is.

And Ranulf doesn't need the extra Def. 55 HP/26 Def means even powerful 3-E Generals struggle to 5HKO Ranulf. Kyza should not be in play, as then we'd be fielding not only the worst unit on the team, but also the second worst.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[grandjackal]

This is kind of a longshot, but since we have to kill feed these units, the chapters they're on will ultimately take longer to beat, making supports build faster, so Fiona might actually have a B at 3-6 as it is.

And Ranulf doesn't need the extra Def. 55 HP/26 Def means even powerful 3-E Generals struggle to 5HKO Ranulf. Kyza should not be in play, as then we'd be fielding not only the worst unit on the team, but also the second worst.

A B by 3-6? Are you joking? She's got 2 chapters (If I recall, she doesn't join the fun in the swamp), and 1-7 is an incredibly short chapter. 1-E also has to be her greatest nightmare. First, it's indoors so her move's reduced. Second, she has to take the long way around on the stairs, which is even worse. Third, Jarod's authority stars take her already bad hit and makes it even worse. On top of this, it will at best give an ineffective bonus for part 3. Nolan and Zihark are among the dodgiest characters on the team aside from perhaps Volug. They support and have double earth. They're STILL at risky hit in part 3! So how well is Fiona being a support battery for her partner in this, when even double earth isn't doing much for some of the dodgiest dudes on the team? Earth blows ass in DB's part 3.

At least with Lyre's thunder, Ranulf and Kyza would become even harder to kill, and if Lyre's in play? Dammit, she's getting Ranulf. It's among his speediest, and having +2 Def and +15 avoid is great. Yeah he's hard to kill, but he's not invincible. Untransformed, he could make due with some assistance, and +2 def is great to have around.

Avoid is situational, but EVERYONE loves a defense boost.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Florete]

A B by 3-6? Are you joking? She's got 2 chapters (If I recall, she doesn't join the fun in the swamp), and 1-7 is an incredibly short chapter. 1-E also has to be her greatest nightmare. First, it's indoors so her move's reduced. Second, she has to take the long way around on the stairs, which is even worse. Third, Jarod's authority stars take her already bad hit and makes it even worse. On top of this, it will at best give an ineffective bonus for part 3. Nolan and Zihark are among the dodgiest characters on the team aside from perhaps Volug. They support and have double earth. They're STILL at risky hit in part 3! So how well is Fiona being a support battery for her partner in this, when even double earth isn't doing much for some of the dodgiest dudes on the team? Earth blows ass in DB's part 3.

Good job explaining why Fiona is Bottom tier.

Now did you read the part about how kill feeding causes chapters to last longer? (Note: This helps Lyre build supports faster as well)

In any case, +30 avoid is a hell of a lot better than +0 avoid or something. Even if the DB faces 80 hit rates in part 3, +30 alone brings that down to 50. That's like going from being hit all the time to only half the time. And you ignore that Earth affinity makes training DB units in part 4 much easier as well. Saying Earth blows ass anywhere is absurd beyond belief.

At least with Lyre's thunder, Ranulf and Kyza would become even harder to kill, and if Lyre's in play? Dammit, she's getting Ranulf. It's among his speediest, and having +2 Def and +15 avoid is great. Yeah he's hard to kill, but he's not invincible. Untransformed, he could make due with some assistance, and +2 def is great to have around.

Kyza's not in play. No one cares about him.

Ranulf should not be in combat if he's untransformed. Being 5HKOd at best throughout part 3 means he doesn't give a shit about Def boosts.

Avoid is situational, but EVERYONE loves a defense boost.

Not when it doesn't actually improve their durability. Take Zihark for example. Give him a +Def support and he is still 2HKOd by the most common enemies in 3-6 and killed by most 2 enemy combinations. Therefore, he needs to dodge, and avoid is better.

[Narga_Rocks]

and if Lyre's in play? Dammit, she's getting Ranulf. It's among his speediest

Sadly, FF 02 seems to be functionally equivalent to 00 02, which is what everyone else has with him. Believe me, Lyre's best bet is Mist. Lyre will need lots of healing with ~60+% hit rates against and being 3HKOd by a lot, 4 by some I think. Then there is the fact it's a 01, which is rather fast when healing is involved. Then there is the +2mt, +3def, +8 avo it gives Lyre. Lyre wants this above anything else because she might actually pull an A by 3-11, especially with all the feeding, but what does Mist want? If you can make a case for Mist waiting a few extra chapters to build her support and why 7 move and 7/9 move want to support each other, then go with that one, trust me. I don't know if it's possible to make that case well, but this is something from which Lyre benefits more than anything but earth, possibly even more than earth, and she's not getting Ike or Oscar, there's just no way, not with a thunder affinity.

[Florete]

Sadly, FF 02 seems to be functionally equivalent to 00 02, which is what everyone else has with him. Believe me, Lyre's best bet is Mist. Lyre will need lots of healing with ~60+% hit rates against and being 3HKOd by a lot, 4 by some I think. Then there is the fact it's a 01, which is rather fast when healing is involved. Then there is the +2mt, +3def, +8 avo it gives Lyre. Lyre wants this above anything else because she might actually pull an A by 3-11, especially with all the feeding, but what does Mist want? If you can make a case for Mist waiting a few extra chapters to build her support and why 7 move and 7/9 move want to support each other, then go with that one, trust me. I don't know if it's possible to make that case well, but this is something from which Lyre benefits more than anything but earth, possibly even more than earth, and she's not getting Ike or Oscar, there's just no way, not with a thunder affinity.

Let's see if I can jump in before Wolf.

Mist has Water, which is like the second best affinity in the game, or the best depending on the characters using it. Almost everyone in the GM's appreciate at least one of the bonuses she gives. Also, we can support her with Boyd for a free Spirit Dust come 3-E, and if Lyre does support her she'll have to take Ike's route, and then she'll lose out on all the experience from Tibarn's route that she desperately needs.

And if we glue Mist to Lyre like you're suggesting, that means Lyre is taking one of the healers for herself, which could be attributed to not only having bad durability herself, but also hurting the durability of the rest of the team. At least Fiona has Canto and occasional ranged attacks to not need as much healing.

[Shadow Mir]

Sadly, FF 02 seems to be functionally equivalent to 00 02, which is what everyone else has with him. Believe me, Lyre's best bet is Mist. Lyre will need lots of healing with ~60+% hit rates against and being 3HKOd by a lot, 4 by some I think. Then there is the fact it's a 01, which is rather fast when healing is involved. Then there is the +2mt, +3def, +8 avo it gives Lyre. Lyre wants this above anything else because she might actually pull an A by 3-11, especially with all the feeding, but what does Mist want? If you can make a case for Mist waiting a few extra chapters to build her support and why 7 move and 7/9 move want to support each other, then go with that one, trust me. I don't know if it's possible to make that case well, but this is something from which Lyre benefits more than anything but earth, possibly even more than earth, and she's not getting Ike or Oscar, there's just no way, not with a thunder affinity.

Let's see if I can jump in before Wolf.

Mist has Water, which is like the second best affinity in the game, or the best depending on the characters using it. Almost everyone in the GM's appreciate at least one of the bonuses she gives. Also, we can support her with Boyd for a free Spirit Dust come 3-E, and if Lyre does support her she'll have to take Ike's route, and then she'll lose out on all the experience from Tibarn's route that she desperately needs.

And if we glue Mist to Lyre like you're suggesting, that means Lyre is taking one of the healers for herself, which could be attributed to not only having bad durability herself, but also hurting the durability of the rest of the team. At least Fiona has Canto and occasional ranged attacks to not need as much healing.

Also, the assload of ranged attackers in 4-4. That's the absolute last thing Lyre wants to go up against with her gauge...

[Narga_Rocks]

Sadly, FF 02 seems to be functionally equivalent to 00 02, which is what everyone else has with him. Believe me, Lyre's best bet is Mist. Lyre will need lots of healing with ~60+% hit rates against and being 3HKOd by a lot, 4 by some I think. Then there is the fact it's a 01, which is rather fast when healing is involved. Then there is the +2mt, +3def, +8 avo it gives Lyre. Lyre wants this above anything else because she might actually pull an A by 3-11, especially with all the feeding, but what does Mist want? If you can make a case for Mist waiting a few extra chapters to build her support and why 7 move and 7/9 move want to support each other, then go with that one, trust me. I don't know if it's possible to make that case well, but this is something from which Lyre benefits more than anything but earth, possibly even more than earth, and she's not getting Ike or Oscar, there's just no way, not with a thunder affinity.

Let's see if I can jump in before Wolf.

Mist has Water, which is like the second best affinity in the game, or the best depending on the characters using it. Almost everyone in the GM's appreciate at least one of the bonuses she gives. Also, we can support her with Boyd for a free Spirit Dust come 3-E, and if Lyre does support her she'll have to take Ike's route, and then she'll lose out on all the experience from Tibarn's route that she desperately needs.

And if we glue Mist to Lyre like you're suggesting, that means Lyre is taking one of the healers for herself, which could be attributed to not only having bad durability herself, but also hurting the durability of the rest of the team. At least Fiona has Canto and occasional ranged attacks to not need as much healing.

Well, I never said the case would be easy. As you say, other units benefit from a Mist support. Not only that, she can easily have an A by 3-7, and so in 3-8 she'd be giving up an A for a C. My point was just Pretty Boi Wolf likes focusing on the faster supports and Mist is basically her best faster support. Plus we are feeding kills to Lyre but trying to build her strike rank at the same time, so aside from maybe giving Lyre cancel to help her out she's always taking counters on those fed kills (still takes them ~76% of the time with cancel). As such, Mist is likely healing her a bunch anyway so if Lyre attacks then Mist heals, they are adjacent for the next player phase anyway and thus get more points (like, 9 per turn and need 34, 33 after C). Really, it is best for Lyre, just probably not best for the team. Since we are using Lyre anyway, maybe a case can be made for wanting to improve her as much as possible and thus giving her the fastest support she could ever even hope to get? Heck, 4 heals might even be possible in 3-4 and she'd have a C in 3-7, B in 3-8, and A in 3-10 instead of 3-11. I just said 3-11 because I think 3-4 is spaced out and it might not be possible to build 34 points in that chapter, but I think it might be possible. Really, 4 out of 10 turns adjacent and healing is not a huge monopoly on Mist's attention. And we have to stop Lyre from getting attacked on enemy phase anyway because of gauge concerns and enemy phase efficiency concerns. Lyre needs kills to get experience so the more time spent with her on enemy phase means more grassing and less killing on player phase, and she doesn't kill on enemy phase because she mostly faces fresh units there.

I suppose Fire would be a decent alternative for Lyre, and a Rhys support isn't as favourable to other units as a Mist support, but it's slower. 7 points per heal + adjacent means 5 of those are needed to get it in one chapter rather than 4, so a level per chapter isn't as easy. 2mt, 2def/res, 8 hit and 8 avo isn't so bad though. It might be Lyre's second best support (from a speed + benefits for Lyre standpoint), and not as many units want Rhys. It's just we are more likely to drop Rhys when the slot numbers get smaller than we are to drop Mist, and while neither is a given for 4-E, Mist is again a more likely candidate than Rhys probably is. I don't know if the Lyre x Rhys route is a good direction to go, but it might be easier to argue for than Mist.

Also, the assload of ranged attackers in 4-4. That's the absolute last thing Lyre wants to go up against with her gauge...

I think those are actually manageable. Mist is basically forced along the bottom, and while there are some mages there we can mostly take care of it on player phase. Then there are the 3 sets of 3 reinforcements just below the right side ledges to kill and one is a sniper and the other two are 1 range. This gives both the option of attacking without being countered on player phase and having enemy phase if she can not suck at it by this point. Really, it's not the end of the world if you have Lyre stuck with this map and Mist, even with all the ranged guys. I don't know about exp, though. Maybe she'd get more in 4-5, but she can't fly and while she can go through thickets I don't think she'll have the speed (32, maybe 34) to double all those faster laguz nor the str to do a lot to the tigers anyway.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Err...Thought Ranulf was an 01 ;;>>

Hmm...Supports are pretty hard to argue for Lyre, but...Again, how useful is Earth affinity in part 3? It's barely helping some of the best guys on your team who are barely scraping by as is. It helps part 4, but so is not sucking up the team in every way possible.

Hmm...Maybe I'm crazy, but do Lethe and Lyre build supports when they're allies in that one part 3 chapter?

[Shadow Mir]

Sadly, FF 02 seems to be functionally equivalent to 00 02, which is what everyone else has with him. Believe me, Lyre's best bet is Mist. Lyre will need lots of healing with ~60+% hit rates against and being 3HKOd by a lot, 4 by some I think. Then there is the fact it's a 01, which is rather fast when healing is involved. Then there is the +2mt, +3def, +8 avo it gives Lyre. Lyre wants this above anything else because she might actually pull an A by 3-11, especially with all the feeding, but what does Mist want? If you can make a case for Mist waiting a few extra chapters to build her support and why 7 move and 7/9 move want to support each other, then go with that one, trust me. I don't know if it's possible to make that case well, but this is something from which Lyre benefits more than anything but earth, possibly even more than earth, and she's not getting Ike or Oscar, there's just no way, not with a thunder affinity.

Let's see if I can jump in before Wolf.

Mist has Water, which is like the second best affinity in the game, or the best depending on the characters using it. Almost everyone in the GM's appreciate at least one of the bonuses she gives. Also, we can support her with Boyd for a free Spirit Dust come 3-E, and if Lyre does support her she'll have to take Ike's route, and then she'll lose out on all the experience from Tibarn's route that she desperately needs.

And if we glue Mist to Lyre like you're suggesting, that means Lyre is taking one of the healers for herself, which could be attributed to not only having bad durability herself, but also hurting the durability of the rest of the team. At least Fiona has Canto and occasional ranged attacks to not need as much healing.

Well, I never said the case would be easy. As you say, other units benefit from a Mist support. Not only that, she can easily have an A by 3-7, and so in 3-8 she'd be giving up an A for a C. My point was just Pretty Boi Wolf likes focusing on the faster supports and Mist is basically her best faster support. Plus we are feeding kills to Lyre but trying to build her strike rank at the same time, so aside from maybe giving Lyre cancel to help her out she's always taking counters on those fed kills (still takes them ~76% of the time with cancel). As such, Mist is likely healing her a bunch anyway so if Lyre attacks then Mist heals, they are adjacent for the next player phase anyway and thus get more points (like, 9 per turn and need 34, 33 after C). Really, it is best for Lyre, just probably not best for the team. Since we are using Lyre anyway, maybe a case can be made for wanting to improve her as much as possible and thus giving her the fastest support she could ever even hope to get? Heck, 4 heals might even be possible in 3-4 and she'd have a C in 3-7, B in 3-8, and A in 3-10 instead of 3-11. I just said 3-11 because I think 3-4 is spaced out and it might not be possible to build 34 points in that chapter, but I think it might be possible. Really, 4 out of 10 turns adjacent and healing is not a huge monopoly on Mist's attention. And we have to stop Lyre from getting attacked on enemy phase anyway because of gauge concerns and enemy phase efficiency concerns. Lyre needs kills to get experience so the more time spent with her on enemy phase means more grassing and less killing on player phase, and she doesn't kill on enemy phase because she mostly faces fresh units there.

I suppose Fire would be a decent alternative for Lyre, and a Rhys support isn't as favourable to other units as a Mist support, but it's slower. 7 points per heal + adjacent means 5 of those are needed to get it in one chapter rather than 4, so a level per chapter isn't as easy. 2mt, 2def/res, 8 hit and 8 avo isn't so bad though. It might be Lyre's second best support (from a speed + benefits for Lyre standpoint), and not as many units want Rhys. It's just we are more likely to drop Rhys when the slot numbers get smaller than we are to drop Mist, and while neither is a given for 4-E, Mist is again a more likely candidate than Rhys probably is. I don't know if the Lyre x Rhys route is a good direction to go, but it might be easier to argue for than Mist.

Also, the assload of ranged attackers in 4-4. That's the absolute last thing Lyre wants to go up against with her gauge...

I think those are actually manageable. Mist is basically forced along the bottom, and while there are some mages there we can mostly take care of it on player phase. Then there are the 3 sets of 3 reinforcements just below the right side ledges to kill and one is a sniper and the other two are 1 range. This gives both the option of attacking without being countered on player phase and having enemy phase if she can not suck at it by this point. Really, it's not the end of the world if you have Lyre stuck with this map and Mist, even with all the ranged guys. I don't know about exp, though. Maybe she'd get more in 4-5, but she can't fly and while she can go through thickets I don't think she'll have the speed (32, maybe 34) to double all those faster laguz nor the str to do a lot to the tigers anyway.

Never mind the fact that said reinforcements include a warrior and a swordmaster, and both are blocking the sniper from direct attacks. Also, you're essntially giving the steel bow sniper near the ledges an easy time attacking them.

[-Cynthia-]

Err...Thought Ranulf was an 01 ;;>>

Hmm...Supports are pretty hard to argue for Lyre, but...Again, how useful is Earth affinity in part 3? It's barely helping some of the best guys on your team who are barely scraping by as is. It helps part 4, but so is not sucking up the team in every way possible.

Hmm...Maybe I'm crazy, but do Lethe and Lyre build supports when they're allies in that one part 3 chapter?

Why would we be fielding Lethe and Lyre? Lethe isn't very likely to be in play, she's not very good.

[grandjackal]

I STILL say Lethe deserves Lower Mid, but whatev.

As for why them at the same time, they are eachother's fastest support (though again I suppose Mordy's got Lyre beat, but whatev, Lyre wants something other than Holy I suppose), and that they have a bond for 10 crit. Certainly helps, I suppose...

Looking over bonds actually...Leanna, Neal and Naesala are all forced on the same chapter, right?

Leanna gives 5 to Neal and 10 to Naesala, Neal giving 10 to Naesala as well. This gives Neal +15 crit and Naesala +20, ya know, n case you thought Naesala was a tad overkill.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Narga_Rocks]

I think those are actually manageable. Mist is basically forced along the bottom, and while there are some mages there we can mostly take care of it on player phase. Then there are the 3 sets of 3 reinforcements just below the right side ledges to kill and one is a sniper and the other two are 1 range. This gives both the option of attacking without being countered on player phase and having enemy phase if she can not suck at it by this point. Really, it's not the end of the world if you have Lyre stuck with this map and Mist, even with all the ranged guys. I don't know about exp, though. Maybe she'd get more in 4-5, but she can't fly and while she can go through thickets I don't think she'll have the speed (32, maybe 34) to double all those faster laguz nor the str to do a lot to the tigers anyway.

Never mind the fact that said reinforcements include a warrior and a swordmaster, and both are blocking the sniper from direct attacks. Also, you're essntially giving the steel bow sniper near the ledges an easy time attacking them.

I still think it's manageable. The reinforcements show up at the end of enemy phase, you need more than one unit to attack anyway, then kill the sniper. It is possible to kill the swordmaster and the sniper on player phase and let the warrior attack Lyre on enemy phase. Lyre might possibly have the speed to double, though it would take a fair amount of levels in 4-1 for her to get there so I don't know for sure (level 23/24). Anyway, I said it's manageable, not optimal. I think that's mostly what we are asking for from these two (Fiona/Lyre). Which one is more manageable. There's a longbow user that moves and a bow user that doesn't, I think. Also a mage that moves once anyone is in range so he doesn't matter either. The longbow user doesn't try to block your access to the ledge, either, so when he attacks he gets 144 + 50 - 30 = 164 hit against Lyre's ~99 + 8 = 107 avo, so he's got a fair chance at hitting or missing, and an ~11% crit rate. But to attack Lyre from on the ledge she'd have to be next to the ledge or one square down. Still, 42 mt (40 + 2) is bad news considering it's basically 3HKOing Lyre so she can't let it attack her from there or she's facing a good chance of death (around 6%). Even a level 27 Lyre with an A thunder/water/light support is at 52 hp and 21 def (even on the same level 39/40 mt 3HKOs too), very much a critblick away from death, and that's ignoring the enemies down there. It's still manageable, since the longbow user can be dealt with after the first wave of reinforcements and in before the second. Anyway, you are using multiple units in addition to Mist and Lyre anyway because there isn't many sets of two units that can actually pull this off in a single turn anyway.

Still, Lyre benefits from going with Micaiah (utility anyway) or Tibarn (levels) likely more than with Ike, so Rhys might be a better idea. 1 def vs. 8 hit, and that 1 def is more contested than Rhys' 8 hit anyway. I think Rhys x Lyre can still pull an A by 3-11 quite easily, though if you can find a good partner for Rhys earlier he gets an A earlier too.

I just think it's really hard to identify which one is less bad.

[Shadow Mir]

I STILL say Lethe deserves Lower Mid, but whatev.

As for why them at the same time, they are eachother's fastest support (though again I suppose Mordy's got Lyre beat, but whatev, Lyre wants something other than Holy I suppose), and that they have a bond for 10 crit. Certainly helps, I suppose...

Looking over bonds actually...Leanna, Neal and Naesala are all forced on the same chapter, right?

Leanna gives 5 to Neal and 10 to Naesala, Neal giving 10 to Naesala as well. This gives Neal +15 crit and Naesala +20, ya know, n case you thought Naesala was a tad overkill.

Man, you're hopeless. You're suggsting that we have all three cats in play, which is problematic for obvious reasons.

[grandjackal]

Hey Narga, how quick ya reckon Neal can get supports going with Leanne? ;;>>

[Narga_Rocks]

Hmm...Supports are pretty hard to argue for Lyre,

Mist might be a hopeless endeavour, but I still think Rhys x Lyre has some promise.

but...Again, how useful is Earth affinity in part 3? It's barely helping some of the best guys on your team who are barely scraping by as is. It helps part 4, but so is not sucking up the team in every way possible.

Well, not many affinities are useful for the DB in part 3, actually. Really Nolan benefits earlier from defence than avo, and aside from that others might benefit from +mt if it doesn't make them clear space on enemy phase but lets them kill easier on player phase. Really with Fiona it's more an investment towards part 4 supportwise where merely surviving the first attack isn't enough to get you by anymore, so since they'll all lack offence having an extra avo boost for another db member could be useful. If it wasn't for 4-3 I'd say Fiona x Micaiah is a good one because it boosts Fiona's avo more and gives her +mt and sets up Micaiah for some actual avo in 4-E-2 (sure there's a move difference, but Fiona's extra 3 move will be spent hiding after her attack for a while). Stupid desert.

Hmm...Maybe I'm crazy, but do Lethe and Lyre build supports when they're allies in that one part 3 chapter?

Don't know yet. Lethe and Lyre are in a unique situation as there is no other time partner units appear from the beginning of the map. Also, Tibarn is on his own in 3-11 rather than with another unit, and he shows up later on, so his situation is very different as well. Basically what I'm saying is, I won't know till I get there since no other units can tell me, but I suspect not.

[grandjackal]

Right then. Thank you for clearing it up.

I must ask though...How soon you think Neal could get an A with Leanne? He's her quickest and soonest support, both are forced on Michaiah's route with NAesala anyways...;;>> They got bonds, you see where I'm going with this?

[Narga_Rocks]

Right then. Thank you for clearing it up.

I must ask though...How soon you think Neal could get an A with Leanne? He's her quickest and soonest support, both are forced on Michaiah's route with NAesala anyways...;;>> They got bonds, you see where I'm going with this?

The game hates Nealuchi and Leanne. And Leanne isn't that good in 4-E. Flying only matters in 4-E-1 and 4-E-2 and canto no longer matters as much starting 4-E-3 so Rafiel is better. They don't have base access in 2-2, so even if they could accumulate the points in 2-P it wouldn't help. 2-E you could have a C, but as a 01 I'm not sure they could make it to B with just adjacents in that chapter, and 9 adjacents greatly restricts your tactics in that chapter and having our heron miss a turn because of being picked up also isn't a good idea so you can't raise the level through rescuing either. I'd say B for 4-3 rather than 4-P, and if you want to press it you could have an A for 4-E-1 but more likely 4-E-2. If the stupid game gave points for chants I'd say sooner is easier than it is now. Since Rafiel doesn't target anyone and Leanne does, it is remotely possible that Leanne could gain points for vigor with the unit on which you place the cursor, but I haven't a clue. Sacrifice gets points so I don't see why chants don't, but Rafiel doesn't get squat for it.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[-Cynthia-]

I don't think chants give a boost, since Leanne is targeting an axis, not a character.

Leanne/Nealuchi C is plausible by 2-E, so a B by 4-3 probably. But Leanne won't be going to 4-E...

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't think chants give a boost, since Leanne is targeting an axis, not a character.

Leanne/Nealuchi C is plausible by 2-E, so a B by 4-3 probably. But Leanne won't be going to 4-E...

I thought she gets the axis but one square is one colour and the other is a different colour? I thought maybe it might make a difference for the unit that is specifically selected even if both get vigored. I might just be remembering wrong and both sides are the same colour. Still, I have some hope for untransformed Reyson. But 3-7 is so far away and 3-5 would be really really annoying to test (3-6 is simple enough in NM, but man it takes a while).

Anyway, I'm thinking Fortify also doesn't build points, because otherwise the user could build support points between herself and the entire team (for all the good it does). Yes, Pelleas and Rhys are girls.

Anyway, I think he was hoping for an A in 4-3, though if we are trying to use Nealuchi into 4-E I don't see how an A in 4-3 helps if he goes supportless to 4-E.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Wolf, I really hope you aren't just trying to change the subject from Fiona vs. Lyre.

LyrexLethe isn't happening. It's only barely better than LyrexKyza because Lethe is like the third worst unit on the team (Even if she was Lower Mid that wouldn't give her a good chance of being fielded).

Really with Fiona it's more an investment towards part 4 supportwise where merely surviving the first attack isn't enough to get you by anymore, so since they'll all lack offence having an extra avo boost for another db member could be useful.

This is a big point for Fiona. Fiona provides positive for part 4 DB members in a way Lyre never can, and that's actually adding to team durability. Just another advantage for Lyre to overcome if she wants to actually beat Fiona, since even though Thunder is a good affinity, Fiona is still helping more in terms of outgoing supports.

After all that's been said, I'm being more and more convinced that Fiona > Lyre. I'll see if kirsche has anything else to say.

[Narga_Rocks]

LyrexLethe isn't happening. It's only barely better than LyrexKyza because Lethe is like the third worst unit on the team (Even if she was Lower Mid that wouldn't give her a good chance of being fielded).

Considering Lethe is Heaven and Kyza is Light and Lyre is Thunder with little hit issues, neither seems like a great support for her even if they were more likely to be fielded. Light means an extra point of def earlier, but she's got only 14 at base anyway and it builds slowly. If she at least had 20 or something at the start I'd be more impressed by a light x thunder support, but not with it that low. The only thing that saves Lethe from her affinity is timing and speed of growth with Mordy (and Mordy's hit issues, I suppose). If he isn't deployed, she's boned. I don't see Lyre x Lethe as desirable in any way.

Really with Fiona it's more an investment towards part 4 supportwise where merely surviving the first attack isn't enough to get you by anymore, so since they'll all lack offence having an extra avo boost for another db member could be useful.

This is a big point for Fiona. Fiona provides positive for part 4 DB members in a way Lyre never can, and that's actually adding to team durability. Just another advantage for Lyre to overcome if she wants to actually beat Fiona, since even though Thunder is a good affinity, Fiona is still helping more in terms of outgoing supports.

After all that's been said, I'm being more and more convinced that Fiona > Lyre. I'll see if kirsche has anything else to say.

Yeah, most of the Lyre supporting I've been suggesting is to help Lyre, though Mist is pretty well served by thunder, dark, and earth, and she's not likely to get earth or dark. Thing is, Mist is highly contested, and Rhys might benefit more from Soren than Lyre, and they match move and both need to be kept from enemies. Fiona actually helps others with her support. Kinda one of the things that helps Mist so much in PoR, only to a lesser extent for Fiona than for Mist in that game.

Has anyone else ever done a Mist x Shinon support pairing in this game, by the way?

[charmander6000]

Has anyone else ever done a Mist x Shinon support pairing in this game, by the way?

Why would anyone? Shinon does pretty well ORKO most units and he's usually a backline unit and doesn't need the extra defence. Also for Mist there are plenty of other supports that provide defense and want water.

[Narga_Rocks]

Has anyone else ever done a Mist x Shinon support pairing in this game, by the way?

Why would anyone? Shinon does pretty well ORKO most units and he's usually a backline unit and doesn't need the extra defence. Also for Mist there are plenty of other supports that provide defense and want water.

Well, even with the silencer he misses by a little without the mt on some units, he won't with Mist. And once in a blue moon we might need him to pull out his crossbow, and 30 mt is less bad than 28. Or he can weaken for someone else a little better with a steel bow than he would otherwise. As for the defence, yeah he doesn't need it but that's a small problem. Aside from wind and earth and heaven everyone else is just getting a plus one instead of a plus two on something, be it mt or def or both. Shinon makes pretty good use out of two of the three points she gives him and she benefits from +3 def and eventually the avo. There is some light affinity users, but your only thunder is Shinon and Lyre. Then there is water and that's just Brom and Mordy, so maybe she could go there, I suppose. With fire she gets hit she doesn't really need and no avo, so the extra +1 mt might be nice and all but I don't see it being huge. I really think Mist benefits from earth > dark > thunder > water > fire > light > wind > heaven. I'm not sure about water, actually, but it's just brom and mordy anyway. Since Ike and Oscar and Soren are unlikely, I think Thunder trumps for Mist. If we don't care about Mist, though, then lots of others want water, yes. At that point it's a free for all.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

*whimpers* Lyre is not the worst unit in the game...She can't be, Fiona gets ORKOd by everything, and and and and and...

So, I guess my Nealuchi observation won't get any attention with that support moving too slow...