OMG it's a tier list

[-Cynthia-]

I agree with Gatrie>Janaff, but I'm not as sure about Mia, mainly because Janaff is beating her in offense and durability for quite a while anyway. Janaff doesn't actually have either of these over crown!Gatrie.

Gatrie's doubling problems Part 4 aren't that severe really, except when he hits his cap later on. This can be fixed with braves though, and Gatrie's obviously strong enough to smash auras just fine with a Brave.

On the subject of resources, it's still a negative to use a particular resource, even if you do the best with it. The only case where this doesn't apply is if the resource is nigh-useless in anybody else's hands, or we have so many of it that we don't really care (forges). In the case of a Master crown, other people make good use of it, so I would call it a negative.

Nailah can double auras without Nasir as well.

Edited August 20, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

Here's the thing: we assume stat boosters and BEXP dumping as not so much of a major negative, but the crown is suddenly. Now I understand that many can use it. I'm not saying Gatrie will always get the crown, and I'm not saying someone like Mia / Titania / Nephenee / whatever will either. Here's what I'm trying to drive on home plate: if a resource could be assumed for anyone in any particular way, why suddenly say that Gatrie cannot get a Master Crown? You don't see me going on the FE6 Tier list anymore saying that Gonzales can't get a Hero Crest because Rutgar and Deak are going to use both of them. It would be different if it was Beorc vs. Beorc and we had to do this, but we aren't.

I'm not exactly the best person to explain things, but point being I can't put such a major penalty on one side and not the other.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Colonel M

[-Cynthia-]

I also see stat boosters and BEXP dumping as negatives, since everyone can use stat boosters and BEXP as well. I'm not saying we can't assume the crown on Gatrie, but let's not forget the cost associated with it.

Edited August 20, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

I agree with Gatrie>Janaff, but I'm not as sure about Mia, mainly because Janaff is beating her in offense and durability for quite a while anyway. Janaff doesn't actually have either of these over crown!Gatrie.

Gatrie's doubling problems Part 4 aren't that severe really, except when he hits his cap later on. This can be fixed with braves though, and Gatrie's obviously strong enough to smash auras just fine with a Brave.

On the subject of resources, it's still a negative to use a particular resource, even if you do the best with it. The only case where this doesn't apply is if the resource is nigh-useless in anybody else's hands, or we have so many of it that we don't really care (forges). In the case of a Master crown, other people make good use of it, so I would call it a negative.

Nailah can double auras without Nasir as well.

With Gatrie, this.

So even when it's best used by someone, it's a negative? That's even more rediculous, as it basically means one thing.

Gatrie takes crown and puts it to best use. But he takes it from Oscar and Soren, so it's a negative.

Oscar can use it to continue his steady usefulness, but he takes it from Gat and Soren, so it's a negative.

Soren could use a crown to increase his versatility while giving him a much needed statistic boost, but yadda yadda.

Basically the negative cancels eachother out. Fact of the matter is Oscar, Gatrie and Soren put the best use to the first crown. They all have the possibility where the others do not. The advantage is theirs to have.

It's like Paragon. It helps someone in the DB work better for their part 3, of which they need all the help they can get. It's just assumed however that the GM get it, because...They clearly need the help dealing with their problems. Why give a resource to people who don't need it?

"It helps them be better for Part 4"

Well if they need it just as bad as the CRK or the DB for part 4 where they all will exist, I see no reason why they should get it unless we specifically planned on not using the DB or CRK seriously. It benefits everyone in the same way, so it is not specifically entitled to anyone, namely the GM. We'll simply give it to the people we plan to use.

This list is such an "assuming high tiers are played" list.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Narga_Rocks]

I also see stat boosters and BEXP dumping as negatives, since everyone can use stat boosters and BEXP as well.

They aren't really a negative. There is an opportunity cost. Gatrie just happens to have such a massive lead in the 3-3 crown situation that he stomps all over that opportunity cost until it is barely recognizable mush. Ditto Mia with Adept and Ike support. It's still there (the opportunity cost), it just barely matters. Comparing a mountain to a molehill. The mountain doesn't have it's full height when compared to the molehill, but it still has so much of it's height in that comparison.

[Ether]

I agree with Gatrie>Janaff, but I'm not as sure about Mia, mainly because Janaff is beating her in offense and durability for quite a while anyway. Janaff doesn't actually have either of these over crown!Gatrie.

Gatrie's doubling problems Part 4 aren't that severe really, except when he hits his cap later on. This can be fixed with braves though, and Gatrie's obviously strong enough to smash auras just fine with a Brave.

On the subject of resources, it's still a negative to use a particular resource, even if you do the best with it. The only case where this doesn't apply is if the resource is nigh-useless in anybody else's hands, or we have so many of it that we don't really care (forges). In the case of a Master crown, other people make good use of it, so I would call it a negative.

Nailah can double auras without Nasir as well.

I already showed that when Janaff joins Mia can Tie his offense on just about everything with a single BEXP level,and that she is not losing durability by a large margin,if at all.And I'll say it again, By the time Mia faces real death chances,janaff will be close to,if not already,reverted,because her Avoid is that hax.

Also,Nailah wont double aura's without Nasir until level 38,and she levels like a Beorc would if they hit Fourth tier,so she likely doesn't get there.

[Interceptor]

Also, can we please stop with the "person X gets shitstomped / outclassed / has to compete with person y" argument? This is getting to the point where it's sickening to look at.

What's the problem with pointing out that someone is outclassed? A unit's ability to survive and/or kill enemy units is basically the biggest part of how we rank combatants. If specific persons are flying off the Hyperbole Cliff and making noise about Dumbshit Hawkington's 1mt lead over Suzy Swordmaster means he's "destroying" or something, tell them to shut their faces unless it actually makes a huge difference in practice.

There are still reasonable situations where leads are massive, like if you are 2HKO'ing and not doubling and being compared against a Trueblade that's 3HKO'ing and doubling. Take the hypothetical example of 20/20/1 Treeskirt the Lance Marshall, vs 20/20/1 Booby the Trueblade. Treeskirt has 25% Luna or something, and low crit. Booby has 16% Astra, but hits twice (30% chance) plus something retarded like a 23 crit advantage, which translates into an additional 40% chance or something. That's a huge difference.

[Shadow Mir]

Nailah can double auras without Nasir as well.

Well, she CAN, but that requires her to cap speed, and with only a 20% growth, she'd have to get to level 38 to do so, and I can't see her getting there.

[-Cynthia-]

They aren't really a negative. There is an opportunity cost. Gatrie just happens to have such a massive lead in the 3-3 crown situation that he stomps all over that opportunity cost until it is barely recognizable mush. Ditto Mia with Adept and Ike support. It's still there (the opportunity cost), it just barely matters. Comparing a mountain to a molehill. The mountain doesn't have it's full height when compared to the molehill, but it still has so much of it's height in that comparison.

True, just don't want this to become a bad pattern where we start assigning tons of resources to any unti without thinking of the costs involved. For example if we're comparing Gatrie and Janaff, if Gatrie takes the Crown and Janaff takes nothing, we should consider that, since Gatrie has hurt the rest of the team (possibly minorly depending upon interpretation), Janaff hasn't.

While we're discussing this region, it just seems more evident that Nolan is overrated. I could see him all the way below Shinon frankly.

As for Nailah doubling auras, we could BEXP her some to get her there, she only needs a point.

Edited August 20, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Ether]

They aren't really a negative. There is an opportunity cost. Gatrie just happens to have such a massive lead in the 3-3 crown situation that he stomps all over that opportunity cost until it is barely recognizable mush. Ditto Mia with Adept and Ike support. It's still there (the opportunity cost), it just barely matters. Comparing a mountain to a molehill. The mountain doesn't have it's full height when compared to the molehill, but it still has so much of it's height in that comparison.

True, just don't want this to become a bad pattern where we start assigning tons of resources to any unti without thinking of the costs involved. For example if we're comparing Gatrie and Janaff, if Gatrie takes the Crown and Janaff takes nothing, we should consider that, since Gatrie has hurt the rest of the team (possibly minorly depending upon interpretation), Janaff hasn't.

While we're discussing this region, it just seems more evident that Nolan is overrated. I could see him all the way below Shinon frankly.

As for Nailah doubling auras, we could BEXP her some to get her there.

Speed is Nailah's lowest growth besides magic. Nice try.

[Zkirsche]

oh please. 1 level up = 20% chance of a spd up. 2 = a 36% chance of 40 spd. 3 = a 59% chance of having 40 spd, and with bexp, getting 1-3 levels isn't hard.

[Narga_Rocks]

As for Nailah doubling auras, we could BEXP her some to get her there.

I generally prefer attempting one untransformed kill in 4-1, 4-4, and 4-E-1 if I can manage it without hurting speed. Usually one or two non-kills if possible. Her 20% is low, but since bexp levels isn't always the top 3 it can often proc speed after 3 attempts and it is somewhat cheap doing it this way. Sometimes I would need to get another one or two levels trying, though, so I never assume Nailah has the 40 speed in the tier list thing.

As for the rest, yeah Nolan has more chapters of meh than any unit in high tier. Zihark in fact has the second most meh chapters. But without a speedwing (more and better competition for it than the crown or adept/Ike for Mia) Titania doesn't exactly double much ever, but she still has other advantages over the rest of the GMs when she isn't doubling. Oh well.

And Gatrie has some small opportunity cost for nabbing the crown. That shouldn't be ignored. I just don't think that it is major enough to hurt in the comparison with the hawks.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

While we're discussing this region, it just seems more evident that Nolan is overrated. I could see him all the way below Shinon frankly.

Make sure to take his buddy Zihark, too. Nolan, despite his faults, is clutch in Part 1, still 3HKO'ed in Part 3, makes excellent use of Beastfoe, and has Part 4/Endgame prospects. If he's not that awesome in the grand scheme of things, it's difficult to see how Z is.

[-Cynthia-]

Well 3HKOd in Part 3 is a little misleading. He does eventually grow into being 3RKOd, but at the beginning of Part 3 he is being 2RKOd more likely than not, and also has a great chance of being doubled by cats, which cuts into his durability. He'll be fine by 3-13, but 3-6 is hardly more friendly to him than it is to most.

In Zihark's defense, he pretty much has the best offense outside of Muarim/Nailah in all of Part 1. The laguz fighting doesn't go well for him, 3-12 is OK and he does have the option of going with the GMs to be more ready for Part 4. Zihark's Part 4 is also pretty good, and compared to Nolan he should be much better prepared level wise.

[Ether]

oh please. 1 level up = 20% chance of a spd up. 2 = a 36% chance of 40 spd. 3 = a 59% chance of having 40 spd, and with bexp, getting 1-3 levels isn't hard.

But by that point she is leveling like a level 20/20/20/10 Beorc would,and she still only has a 60% chance of having 40 spd.

Your grasping at straws here,for example,Mia has a similar chance of having a strength transfer if she used a str band in POR,and now her offense is a non-issue in part 3,since you love hyping Shinon's crossbows,she now his att with them at base with her steel sword.

See where this takes us?

[grandjackal]

They aren't really a negative. There is an opportunity cost. Gatrie just happens to have such a massive lead in the 3-3 crown situation that he stomps all over that opportunity cost until it is barely recognizable mush. Ditto Mia with Adept and Ike support. It's still there (the opportunity cost), it just barely matters. Comparing a mountain to a molehill. The mountain doesn't have it's full height when compared to the molehill, but it still has so much of it's height in that comparison.

True, just don't want this to become a bad pattern where we start assigning tons of resources to any unti without thinking of the costs involved. For example if we're comparing Gatrie and Janaff, if Gatrie takes the Crown and Janaff takes nothing, we should consider that, since Gatrie has hurt the rest of the team (possibly minorly depending upon interpretation), Janaff hasn't.

While we're discussing this region, it just seems more evident that Nolan is overrated. I could see him all the way below Shinon frankly.

As for Nailah doubling auras, we could BEXP her some to get her there, she only needs a point.

Gatrie has HELPED the team by putting resources to good use. This game is resource heavy, it's BOUND to come down to this. In exchange though, Janaff could get Adept, because he puts it to amazing use. Basically, measure them on how best they help the team if they are to be seriously used. Otherwise, why do we assume ANYONE gets ANYTHING? Crowns, given skills, BEXP, all of it should just not be considered. Otherwise, there are things you should have to deal with.

Like Kyza. Vykan brings up again and again giving him the speed wing. It would give him the speed to double, with 26 AS. Impressive. It's brought up that Haar would also like that speed wing. Yet, to generally double, you need 24 AS. To get that sort of speed, you need to give him to level 18 first, 7 levels. Then he'd need a speedwing or a crown. So 1 speed wing vs 1 speed wing/crown and 7 levels, of which he'd STILL be 2 speed slower than Kyza. Already, it's cheaper to get Kyza going. No one else really gets this sudden boost in usability like Kyza can. 1 item, Kyza went from sub-par to awesome. This is the advantage laguz generally have over the rest of the cast.Another example is Boyd. To get that sort of speed with a speedwing, we need to first give Boyd a wing, of which he'd get 26 AS...By 20/1...He'd need to promote...

So yes, resources are created equal, but the use people put them to are not. It should be measured, especially in this resource-heavy game.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Narga_Rocks]

In Zihark's defense, he pretty much has the best offense outside of Muarim/Nailah in all of Part 1. The laguz fighting doesn't go well for him, 3-12 is OK and he does have the option of going with the GMs to be more ready for Part 4. Zihark's Part 4 is also pretty good, and compared to Nolan he should be much better prepared level wise.

I really don't think being under average for part 3 is the kind of thing that warrants being the number 6 unit in the game. Besides, in 1-7 Tormod is the only unit that is going to have a respectable hit rate going up the ledge to attack the mage if you want to open the door in the southeast by turn 4 (maybe 5) in order to get all the soldiers out and still finish on turn 10. Tormod actually ORKOs lots of things in this chapter that Zihark doesn't, and has similar durability. Of course, anything with 17 speed or more is taking more damage from Zihark, but Tormod wins on other units. He even 1RKOs the armors by using elfire. Vika has similar mt and doubles everything, just doesn't have as much crit and can't grab a brave sword or a killing edge. Sothe is still better than Zihark in 1-8 because of all those mages on the right side they have to take down. A forged iron knife means Sothe basically won't miss and ORKOs them all while Zihark just has a wind edge to use. They are similar defensively, but Sothe is much better offensively here. In 1-E, Tormod still kills a fair number of things for which Zihark needs a brave sword or a crit. Zihark still wins on myrms, and a couple of soldiers now have 17 speed, but with one level Tormod has a 55% chance of doubling those. Armors now go down to about 3 hp from Tormod, but Zihark basically 4 or 5 HKOs them with brave sword or killing edge, so with the brave sword Zihark has 26 mt and only kills the 36hp/17def armors and fails on the ones with any more hp or def, and either way is taking 4 uses off the brave sword if he doesn't crit earlier. With a killing edge, he only has 25 mt and needs 2 crits to take one down because he 5HKOs all of them.

Just saying, being effectively tied with Tormod and losing to Nailah/BK/Muarim and having similar no-proc offence to Vika... It kind of seems like he's a bit above average here, but not much more than that. He's good and all, but he's not exactly top 3 here. (12 slots, loses to Volug (despite all the 16 speed units, since there are enough 15 speed units) once he has S strike, 3 are better, tied with Tormod, similar to Vika, 4/12 or 5/12 once Volug has S strike, and his 4th is a tie with Tormod (only because of procing) and only beats Vika on procing, but he's under 40 without using a special weapon)

[Colonel M]

Sorry Int, I accidentally read Ether's post similair to the situation which was why I said it. I thought she was saying Nailah had to compete or w/e. I don't disagree with Nolan dropping a bit, but I'm still thinking Aran and Jill need to drop too. Unsure on the Zihark situation so I'll leave that alone.

[Interceptor]

To add to that, Zihark's durability in Part 1 is not particularly amazing, either. As I've said a million times -- and now can prove thanks to Narga's research -- his support builds much too slowly for it to matter greatly given the number of chapters that he participates in early on. Even in 1-7 where he's at least somewhere around Tormod even without a support, he loses durability just owing to the fact that Tormod fights uncountered on nearly everything. Just saying.

[Colonel M]

I thought Volug X Zihark built rather quickly though? Could be wrong but... Zihark does like furries.

[Interceptor]

It's hard to build a support quickly between Z and Volug without sandbagging your Top tier unit, since Volug has 9MV and some pretty important duties that might not include Zihark being next to him and/or shovable. Nolan is easier to keep nearby, but we know that 1) Nolan cares less about mirrored Earth in HM than he does a +DEF support, and 2) that support match-up is slower anyway.

[Narga_Rocks]

I thought Volug X Zihark built rather quickly though? Could be wrong but... Zihark does like furries.

It's still just a 01. Still takes 9 adjacents in 1-6 and since both of them are rather useful in those chapters, and Volug is good in an area Zihark can't really reach in 1-6-2, it is rather limiting to keep them adjacent 9 times. In 1-8 he starts on the other side of the map, but between 1-7 and 1-8 he would then only need 5 adjacents if you pulled a C in 1-6 (requires snailing, basically). Otherwise they just activated C in the 1-8 base and there is no possible way to get a B for 1-E. So he gets a C for 1-8 and 1-E, nothing for 1-7, and a B for 3-6 and an A for 3-12. (Let's face it, 9 adjacents is pretty easy in 3-6.) Nolan on the other hand is likely an A for 3-13 rather than 3-12, and Nolan now needs like 3 extra levels to reach 3HKO than he would if we gave him a +def support. With snailing, you are still facing a C in 1-8, a B in 1-E and 3-6. Let's face it, 9 adjacents in 12 turns in 1-E is pushing it rather severely. There is bound to be 3 or 4 turns in which you give up on one of them attacking something. So B in 3-6 either way, and A in 3-12 with Volug.

[Colonel M]

Going back to Nolan's case, he is fairly limited on his options. He could use Micaiah but I don't think that would make his #RKOes significantly improve. As for something like a Thunder affinity we have Jill (9 Mov) or Aran (lol) for options. I'm not even going to bother with Leo and Eddy since they're even more lol than Aran is (well at least Leo had Crossbows and Lughdadsoifuladsjfoiwejrfklasdnvoiaijwhateveritiscalled Bow).

[Narga_Rocks]

Gatrie has HELPED the team by putting resources to good use. This game is resource heavy, it's BOUND to come down to this. In exchange though, Janaff could get Adept, because he puts it to amazing use. Basically, measure them on how best they help the team if they are to be seriously used. Otherwise, why do we assume ANYONE gets ANYTHING? Crowns, given skills, BEXP, all of it should just not be considered. Otherwise, there are things you should have to deal with.

Janaff is helped far far more by either bexp or an energy drop. Sure, an energy drop is irreversible, and the bexp is ~25% of our max bexp at this point. Oh, and from earlier, the crown is not the same as a satori sign. The opportunity cost of the satori sign is basically as close to 0 as you could ever possibly get. The only way it isn't 0 is if you somehow get Ranulf to level 30 in 3-8, or if you are using more laguz than we have satori signs, which is hard since we get so very many. The opportunity cost of giving Gatrie the crown is not zero, it's just he's doritos so we don't care. Anyway, adept means on anything Janaff 2HKOs there is a chance Janaff will get half as much wexp as he would have if he didn't have adept, so that's not a good thing. We delay getting it, just like we would if we got him Tear. His best bet may actually be the energy drop, but there is still an opportunity cost for that, too, and it's more difficult to find doritos for where the energy drop goes. There may not even be a doritos there.

Like Kyza. Vykan brings up again and again giving him the speed wing. It would give him the speed to double, with 26 AS. Impressive. It's brought up that Haar would also like that speed wing. Yet, to generally double, you need 24 AS. To get that sort of speed, you need to give him to level 18 first, 7 levels. Then he'd need a speedwing or a crown. So 1 speed wing vs 1 speed wing/crown and 7 levels, of which he'd STILL be 2 speed slower than Kyza. Already, it's cheaper to get Kyza going. No one else really gets this sudden boost in usability like Kyza can. 1 item, Kyza went from sub-par to awesome. This is the advantage laguz generally have over the rest of the cast.Another example is Boyd. To get that sort of speed with a speedwing, we need to first give Boyd a wing, of which he'd get 26 AS...By 20/1...He'd need to promote...

Awesome?

He doubles all but Swordmasters, sure, but he's pulling 30 mt with no crit. He's also needing to build a support, but he's only got Lyre as a faster support and the rest aren't. In fact, the forced guy that just showed up is an FF 03 so it would take forever to grow. Plus, Kyza's got light so I can't imagine anyone breaking a support for him. And the hawks don't exactly need defence (though I guess it could make it easier to reach 2HKO from crossbows) and Janaff certainly doesn't need hit, and Ulki is likely mostly fine. That 30 mt isn't even enough to 3HKO, so he's not getting adept. Basically, he still kinda blows even with that speedwing. Then there is his 35% speed growth and slow experience gaining. When is he getting 28 speed? Will he have 3 levels before 4-P/1/2? Then he needs 32 speed for most of 4-3/4/5, so that's 9 levels by then. At this point, he's not doubling anymore. He likely gets the same number of chapters doubling from a speedwing as the other units do, his are just earlier chapters. The others still get more doubling even when they don't double everything, though, like doubling extra paladins in 3-11 and various things like that. 3-11 is actually kinda sad because you can double 75% of the enemies with a mere 24 speed, so that's much easier for units like Boyd with a speedwing.

Basically, Kyza is not doritos where speedwings are concerned. Not even close.

Going back to Nolan's case, he is fairly limited on his options. He could use Micaiah but I don't think that would make his #RKOes significantly improve. As for something like a Thunder affinity we have Jill (9 Mov) or Aran (lol) for options. I'm not even going to bother with Leo and Eddy since they're even more lol than Aran is (well at least Leo had Crossbows and Lughdadsoifuladsjfoiwejrfklasdnvoiaijwhateveritiscalled Bow).

Well, Nolan's case is interesting. Actually, Micaiah is good for him later, despite 4-3, if you don't take Zihark to endgame, but how much does Nolan need his support in 1-8? In 1-E, his support would mostly give avo, but you have a star disadvantage anyway. Really, you could, in theory, build Nolan x Edward to A by 1-7 and then not deploy Edward again until 3-6. He might miss his support in 1-7, but in 1-8 it's short anyway with a small number of enemies he'd face anyway (too little res and not much avo anyway so he should stay away from the east mages) and in 1-E the difference between 60% hit against and 100% hit against is a healing one, not a tactics one. Though I don't think the hit difference would be that large. In 1-6, we likely aren't really letting Edward do much, and they have the same move. Really, you could just have Edward following Nolan around to build and provide support. C is easy for 1-4, and in 1-4 and 1-5 you can have them adjacent 5 times to get a B for 1-6. The same stuff applies to Leo x Nolan, as well.

If you actually plan on using Leo or Edward in 1-7/1-8/1-E, then an A for 1-8 is a cinch even if you actively use Edward or Leo in 1-6, since they can finish building for A in 1-7. So either way an A for 3-6 isn't hard and it makes Nolan much better faster in part 3 at the cost of being only a little more meh in late part 1 than he already is even with his support anyway (in the event of not using Ed/Leo in 1-7/8/E) or he actually gets boosted defence for those chapters. And hit for his hand axe with Edward, or more mt for all his weapons with Leo.

Nolan's options are not just limited to Zihark.

edit:

Because I forgot this earlier:

I'd give you a cookie, but Shinon is really good for endgame and Soren isn't.

I never said that they had to go to Endgame. Shinon gets his Double Bow by that point, and he can start a C with Naesala or something if he really wants a little +atk. I will give you a cookie for trying -- {:::} -- but I demand a cookie of my own.

Okay, okay, I give you: -- {:::} --, because it works for Shinon. I still think my Shinon x Mist works well for both, and Soren x Rhys works well for both. And Soren doesn't really care about thunder's bonuses. 2mt, 2def/res, 15 avo may look nice, but considering neither actually do anything on enemy phase...

But it works for Shinon, and then he can drop Soren in 4-E when Soren is no longer around, and Shinon can start with someone else. I'm not really sure who, but as I said before I'm not sure how much he needs it with the double bow. It's like the difference between ORKOing generals on a cover with Ena and not. But he still ORKOs generals when not on cover tiles even without Ena, so I'm not actually sure it even matters that he might not get them on cover tiles.

So we both get cookies for fixing Shinon's pre-4-E minor player phase issues.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

I can agree with Nolan and Zihark moving down. Double Earth doesn't even necessarily save Zihark part 3. On top of that, at least Nolan has actual toughness to consider.

Hmmm...I think to measure, you need to look at what resources you need to get going, and measure it to the return you get out of it. Example: Haar needs pretty much nothing to be useful throughout his entire existence, and he's around for a long time. He's still top for a reason. Worst he'll ever need is a Brave Axe for the auras.

However, Lyre (who knew I was gonna bring it up?) would need something like Paragon and an energy drop. You'd start with a unit that is basically Lethe who's missing an important point of speed, BUT is leveling like a 20/7 unit, which is like...Mia back when she was at base.

Now you will say "BUT SHE'S TAKING THEM FORM THE TEAM!" which s like saying Marcus is an EXP hog. Here's the reason why this should be a penalty rather than just taking it from the team.

-She is not putting immediate use to it, like Kyza would with a speed wing.

-She still needs to be fed kills like most other growth units.

So when do we see results? Well considering her leveling speed under these circumstances, I could see her getting 3-4 levels at a reasonable pace, unlike just about any other laguz on your team save perhaps Kyza. So we get...

Level 20 Lyre, Energy drop

48.5 HP, 10.05 Str, 6.3 Mag, 12.95 Skill, 13.1 Speed, 17.5 Luck, 7.6 Def, 8.9 Res

Transformed, 48.5 HP, 20.05 Str, 12.3 Mag, 24.95 Skill, 26.1 Speed, 17.5 Luck, 14.6 Def, 16.9 Res

Obviously, she's not comparing to Mia any time soon, but that's why they're tiers apart. Let's view this though. She'd only need 2 levels to double, which isn't rediculous in a time span. Someone like Rolf would need 7 levels and a speed wing for such speed. He could get Elite too, but then consider that Lyre can occasionally smack someone untransformed, and when transformed can attack more than one person per turn. As you can see, she is not useless. She's basically geneally as durable is Boyd is, just with more avoid and a durability boosting support. Boyd couldn't reach her speed unless we gave him about 9 levels and a speed wing.

So now we have to consider how well she puts the Energy Drop to use, to see if she gets the return other units would get. There is Janaff and Ulki, but they could just pick up a Satori Sign or Adept. They don't find the Energy Drop to fix what offense problems they might have. There's Shinon, but he could easily just pick up a forge. This leaves basically Oscar, Lethe and Nephenee. Oscar already sort of needs a crown, which I suppose would be fair in exchange for Paragon. Nephenee can level faster on top of getting returns from the drop sooner and more effectively with range and no transformation issues. Lethe is in the same boat, except she only cares for the energy drop, as Paragon would still have her leveling like a level 17 tier 2 beorc, which is still not fast. So she is a -3 on the Energy Drop, and -2 on Paragon. She can be useful with these two things quick, but the problem is those who also want these resources. So as you can see, there is a way to measure resource consumption helping your team. You might say it's favoritism, but the chances of us using many units seriously who would need energy drops is a bit rediculous. But if they ARE to be played, she WILL have to deal with them. But in exchange, she is putting an energy drop to better use than say...Boyd is. Giving him 2 mt is like a raindrop in a well. This idea that taking a stat booster from the team is rediculous, considering certain units require certain resources for a boost that would actually help them (we don't give Gatrie Dracoshields, do we?)

Then there is class specific problems to measure. Armors have low move, pegasi have arrow weakness, and cats have their problematic gauge. This alone has her in a negative, though it's not as bad as the negatives for Paragon and the Energy Drop (and yes, I DO claim some people put Paragon to better use, as it helps them become awesome. Making an already awesome unit awesomer is a tad redundant and is rather a waste).

So as you can see, there is ways to make Lyre quite useful. However, she will still be bottom tier, NOT because she's taking resources from the team, but rather putting them to worse use than others who could use them, and cat gauge.

To measure

Lyre

+Fastest leveling laguz with he most time gives her some priority on Paragon

+Able to utilize Energy Drops

+Thunder Affinity

+Once speed is up, the advantage is never disappearing

+If she can get to level 30, Rend is an insane skill and she will easily have the best activation rate for it out of all the cats

+Untransformed counter on occasion gives her a boatload of BEXP

-Energy drops do not have their presence felt until 2 levels later

-Meaning she still needs to be fed kills

-Meaning others who could put the energy drops to use puts her very low priority for them.

-Cat Gauge really kills her.

There are less negatives in NUMBER, but do see that the negatives are still huge. However, she still has a way to be used. Maybe this is another one of those over-anaylizing deals, but she'd still be in bottom, but she can be used and fixable, just like Fiona. Bleh...

But anyways, this is more on the GM which have access to lots, but also have lots of people. What of some team like the DB? That Dracoshield Leo comes with shouldn't just be ignored. Someone like Eddie or Nolan or Aran could use it to great effect.

Example. Let's give Eddie the Dracoshield. 3 levels for 1-2

HP: 21.55, Str: 8.8, Skill: 12.95, Speed: 13.8, Luck: 9.5, Def: 6.05+2, Res: who cares

2x Fighter lvl 6 (Iron Axe)

HP 25, Ak 20, AS 10, Hit 102, Avo 26, DEF 7, RES 1, Crit 4, Ddg 6

1x Soldier lvl 6 (Steel Lance)

HP 23, Atk 20, AS 7, Hit 106, Avo 20, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 5, Ddg 6

1x Archer lvl 8 (droppable Steel Bow)

HP 23, Atk 22, AS 11, Hit 113, Avo 29, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 6, Ddg 7

Only people that can 2RKO him. As you can see, He does get returns out of this.

1x Soldier lvl 6 (Bronze Lance)

HP 23, Atk 14, AS 10, Hit 116, Avo 26, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 0, Ddg 6

1x Myrmidon lvl 8 ( Iron Sword, Chest key, near SW chests)

HP 22, Atk 14, AS 14, Hit 123, Avo 35, DEF 6, RES 2, Crit 11, Ddg 7-4RKOs

Rest 3RKO. This might not be effective here and there part 1, but it DOES have significant returns part 4. As for Aran?

1x Fighter lvl 7 (Steel Axe, droppable Door Key)

HP 27, Atk 24, AS 8, Hit 99, Avo 22, DEF 7, RES 2, Crit 4, Ddg 6

Aran's got 24 HP, and 11+2 Def. These are the second strongest enemies on the entire map, and they 3RKO.

1x Burton lv 11 (Sword Knight boss, Wind Edge, stealable Discipline)

HP 29, Atk 19, AS 13, Hit 88, Avo 30, DEF 13, RES 7, Crit 6, Ddg 4

This is the damn boss. A 4RKO. He can effectively pull the boss towards us, making it safer to use Aran to lure the boss to steal his shit then nuke him.

1x Myrmidon lvl 9 (Steel Sword, Turn 6, north)

HP 22, Atk 18, AS 12, Hit 118, Avo 31, DEF 7, RES 3, Crit 11, Ddg 7 -This guy just to show how pathetic he is, 5 damage to Aran, it's a 5RKO.

1-4

3x Tiger lvl 5

HP 40, Atk 24, AS 10, Hit 125, Avo 27, DEF 10, RES 2, Crit 7, Ddg 2

1x Tiger lvl 4

HP 39, Atk 24, AS 10, Hit 120, Avo 26, DEF 10, RES 2, Crit 6, Ddg 1 -Hey, he's getting 3RKOd at base and all we did was give him a shield!

2x Cat lvl 5

HP 34, Atk 18, AS 14, Hit 128, Avo 34, DEF 8, RES 4, Crit 8, Ddg 1

1x Cat lvl 6

HP 35, Atk 18, AS 14, Hit 128, Avo 34, DEF 8, RES 6, Crit 8, Ddg 1-Aran's base speed is 11, he will nto b doubled. They do 5 damage. 5RKO.

It only gets better from there with his growths. He also caps Defense at the same time he caps skill. If you BEXP him to 20 then Seal, we just got him 2 more HP, maxed his strength, but most importantly it scores him +2 Speed. This in turn with how he could be helped tier 2 and that you can basically crown him early, he'd land 24 AS after crowning, which is just enough to avoid being doubled in part 4. 1 Dracoshield, and the effects can be felt throughout the game.

In fact, with that maxing of strength tier 1, he caps strength a level sooner at the same time as defense, which in turn would also score him an extra point of speed, so make that 25.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Robo Ky