OMG it's a tier list

[Interceptor]

I think given how we've distributed resources in other comparisons, denying Titania a Speedwing while Gatrie gets a Crown and Mia gets Adept/Earth wouldn't make much sense. We have 2 Speedwings by 3-2 and Titania/Haar are doritos. I don't see Titania dropping except maybe below Sothe, but that's a tough comparison. Sothe's Part 1> Titania's Part 3 IMO, but she beats him Part 4.

Leanne on the other hand, only had 6 chapters before the Endgame she won't be going to. She's got less relative availability than Nailah, for instance(Nailah going to 4-E isn't detrimental), and I'd rather have Nailah's great combat than 2 extra Player Phases we have to protect a unit for. Leanne actually has some chapters where's she's not that useful anyway, namely 4-3. I would personally sit her down right above Rafiel.

I'd like to stay away from resource fairness arguments, because they don't have anything to do with efficiency.

When we look at the opportunity cost of giving Mia Adept or Earth, the difference between her many of the alternatives are not even on the same planet as that of Titania and a Speedwing. Titania deserves some credit for being really good with a Speedwing, and in my opinion is the only reason she even deserves to be High tier in the first place (Oscar, after all, is also a Paladin with doubling problems and he's Upper Mid), but the fact that winging her denies us a doubling Haar, or makes it harder to fix a SPD-screwed Ike, or whatever, should be considered.

The real sticking point with Titania is that she's one of the units that's going to start getting shaky as Endgame approaches, even with a wing. The largest benefit that she's able to give us with it appears to be in earlygame.

Vykan says the calculations show 28 speed and I must have gotten insanely lucky (not exact words).

Just to remind you: calculations are not always right. Remember the soldier in 2-1 that has a fixed LCK stat that's unaffected by bases/growths, for what I can tell is no particular reason at all. Not every enemy unit obeys the bases/growths that have been ripped from the game data.

[Ether]

I think given how we've distributed resources in other comparisons, denying Titania a Speedwing while Gatrie gets a Crown and Mia gets Adept/Earth wouldn't make much sense. We have 2 Speedwings by 3-2 and Titania/Haar are doritos. I don't see Titania dropping except maybe below Sothe, but that's a tough comparison. Sothe's Part 1> Titania's Part 3 IMO, but she beats him Part 4.

Leanne on the other hand, only had 6 chapters before the Endgame she won't be going to. She's got less relative availability than Nailah, for instance(Nailah going to 4-E isn't detrimental), and I'd rather have Nailah's great combat than 2 extra Player Phases we have to protect a unit for. Leanne actually has some chapters where's she's not that useful anyway, namely 4-3. I would personally sit her down right above Rafiel.

Except speedwings are in quite high demand.Almost anyone can see improvement from a speedwing,heck,look at Rolf,with a wing,he has Ti's base AS at level 1.With his leveling speed,all of a sudden,Rolf isn't hard to train anymore(i'm pretty sure he gets more exp for chipping an enemy than Ti does for killing one,at least early on.)

As for Gatrie's crown,he can wait until 3-7 for it if he needs to,it just cuts his awesome period down a bit,but even without it he has his durability and offense comparable to the team.He's much more flexible than Titania,because if she can't get a wing in 3-2,she isn't anything but average.

As for Mia,Narga gave Ti an earth support to,so unless you're comparing adept to a speedwing,Ti is clearly taking more resources.

Basically,Titania needs her speedwing to do anything notable,even Narga agreed,While Gatrie can survive without crowned offense due to his durability,and Mia can survive fine with a thunder support if she needs to,and still apply her offense.

Titania is dependant on resources,while Gatrie/Mia aren't.All three are better with them,but without,Titania is clearly lackluster in comparison.

Also,I can agree on Leanne going right over Rafiel.

[grandjackal]

Also, how the hell do we have 2 speedwings in 3-2? You mean you took it from the DB AND the CRK? CRK I can understand, as everyone is basically forced in hte chapter, and someone like Brom/Neph/Haar could easily nab it and take it witht hem, but it's still rediculous for Illyana to be brought to 1-E just for the sole reason of stuffing it in her pocket (good luck hitting anything with her, good luck keeping her alive).

The GM need it to pwn maps, know what they need to be killfaces in part 3? To be used naturally, it's not like they need it to be insane. Their enemies suck in comparison to the other teams. I might as well give a wing to Caineghis, because he's just flat out the best unit when he shows up.

So Titania could make great use of a speedwing. That much is true. But how often will she get a chance at one? Inf act, what if we got none of the two wings in 3-2? Again, you have her high up for someone who needs a wing far sooner than the guy who'd only want one by the time the GM's wing shows up naturally.

To add to Ether's bit there, a wing can also make Kyza suck twice as less as now he's doubling. His performance is basically a tankier though weaker Boyd (Boyd will not be doubling, but he's hitting with crazy powerful weapons) with a wing. On top of that, he's building strike level twice as fast, so when he hits S strike his power just got 5 damage added. With his doubling (26 AS doesn't die out for a long while), that's basically +10 damage.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Interceptor]

Robo, nowhere in your post is there any reason for the DB to keep the Speedwing, other than

1) you have to have Ilyana deployed in 1-E, and

2) the GMs can blitz through Part 3.

Any idiot can do the first thing since Ilyana does not even need to fight. She doesn't even need to open the chest, someone can just pass the item to her. Don't give me bullshit about taking a slot: you have like 9 empty positions. As for the second thing, the GMs aren't pwning on their own outside of Normal Mode. Everyone starts failing to double in Hard Mode, and unless you distribute resources you're going to run into situations where tons of people are 2RKO'ing for a long time.

About the only thing that the DB should hang onto besides Beastfoe is Paragon, and even that one is shaky because the GMs should get it if you aren't intended to use DB members. If there is no real reason for the DB to be using the Speedwing, then they should not have it, end of story.

[grandjackal]

Robo, nowhere in your post is there any reason for the DB to keep the Speedwing, other than

1) you have to have Ilyana deployed in 1-E, and

2) the GMs can blitz through Part 3.

Any idiot can do the first thing since Ilyana does not even need to fight. She doesn't even need to open the chest, someone can just pass the item to her. Don't give me bullshit about taking a slot: you have like 9 empty positions. As for the second thing, the GMs aren't pwning on their own outside of Normal Mode. Everyone starts failing to double in Hard Mode, and unless you distribute resources you're going to run into situations where tons of people are 2RKO'ing for a long time.

About the only thing that the DB should hang onto besides Beastfoe is Paragon, and even that one is shaky because the GMs should get it if you aren't intended to use DB members. If there is no real reason for the DB to be using the Speedwing, then they should not have it, end of story.

The problem is that the wing is basically on the other side of the map. With BK/SexyQueen/Muarim/Volug, we're blitzing this chapter something harsh pretty quick. Even considering, you'd basically need someone to go up, pick the chest, then run it back down to low move Illyana. By the time we're picking the chest, Nailah with Michaiah saviored could be ready to beat the map at this point.

Oh no, most of the GM will be 2RKOing, what a sin! Wow, just like the other teams! If they can do it, I think the GM can suck it up. I see no reason to keep her above Gatrie, considering she's dependent on a wing she would take from another team. At least Gatrie's wing comes naturally, meaning he needn't take from other teams.

In fact because of this, I see no reason to keep her above Nailah. At least Nailah doesn't need stat boosters to function. On top of it, she's godly to the point she compares or even beats out a unit who is invincible and has 1-2 range. Then she reappears to be endgame viable, whereas Titania might not quite be the material we need.

SexyQueen>RedHairedDemon

I mean srsly, how did one get to 5th best unit in the game on the basis of "I need a speedwing as soon as possible"? Only in crazy ass-backwards FE10 I guess...

Edited August 26, 2009 by Robo Ky

[nflchamp]

Oh no, most of the GM will be 2RKOing, what a sin! Wow, just like the other teams! If they can do it, I think the GM can suck it up. I see no reason to keep her above Gatrie, considering she's dependent on a wing she would take from another team. At least Gatrie's wing comes naturally, meaning he needn't take from other teams.

What does it matter if they take it from the DB? Who in the DB is going to make use of the speedwing?

[Interceptor]

The problem is that the wing is basically on the other side of the map. With BK/SexyQueen/Muarim/Volug, we're blitzing this chapter something harsh pretty quick. Even considering, you'd basically need someone to go up, pick the chest, then run it back down to low move Illyana. By the time we're picking the chest, Nailah with Michaiah saviored could be ready to beat the map at this point.

The only scenario where you wouldn't be able to get Ilyana up there in time is when you literally ferry Micaiah to the top for the Speed Sieze. In all other cases, Ilyana has the same MV and more durability than Micaiah, so she can easily just follow the path of destruction and be right near the chest.

Oh no, most of the GM will be 2RKOing, what a sin! Wow, just like the other teams!

Your sarcasm fails. Efficient play means that having another GM who can ORKO consistently is a good thing. If they do more for efficient play with the Wing than another team would, then logic suggests that it's reasonable for them to get the Wing.

I mean srsly, how did one get to 5th best unit in the game on the basis of "I need a speedwing as soon as possible"? Only in crazy ass-backwards FE10 I guess...

Let's not forget that Titania is an axe-wielding STR-goddess, such that going from not doubling to doubling is a big deal. It would not be a big deal for someone like Oscar, for example, who is already borderline on killing loladins cleanly. Keep some perspective, here.

[Colonel M]

As said before, the only real units that can benefit from the Speedwing are Nolan and Jill. Micaiah is just going to Wrathbomb which doesn't involve Speed anyway. They're probably the only two that actually come close to using it best. One benefit with Nolan is you come closer to capping 5 stats before promotion, making HP, Def, and Str easier than hell to fix. Now if only he didn't get Luck so high of a growth but a low base...

Actually I'm doubtful on Jill too. Unless 21 Spd does something significant, she caps the Spd stat at Level 9 (with lolMag). If anything she just wants a Talisman to speed up the Res capping process. Her only real benefit with the Speedwing would probably when she hits Tier 3, and that's about it. The same with Nolan.

I think if the GMs were to take the Speedwing, there wouldn't be a major penalty. I'm seeing Nolan as the only unit that actually gets a decent return out of it (Narga hinted at Aran, but his only problem are the cats not tigers). I understand that shipping everything to the GMs seems a bit ludicrous (even in my eyes it does, sorry) but the Speedwing is something that could be easily shipped since not everyone is going to use Nolan.

Minor nitpick: RNG-screwing isn't a good argument, especially when we're considering that we're following the averages. Let's not get hasty in that department (only reason to mention it: I saw someone mention RNG-screwed Ike).

Edited August 26, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

Oh no, most of the GM will be 2RKOing, what a sin! Wow, just like the other teams! If they can do it, I think the GM can suck it up. I see no reason to keep her above Gatrie, considering she's dependent on a wing she would take from another team. At least Gatrie's wing comes naturally, meaning he needn't take from other teams.

What does it matter if they take it from the DB? Who in the DB is going to make use of the speedwing?

Aran's durability could basically double

Nolan's boosted his avoid by 4, and can actually double things part 3

Could promote Meg at level 13, would have yet another wall in the fight against communism

Jill will double far sooner

Muarim could double things part 4 when he returns. Minor, I know

Tormod would be doubling far more often part 1, will not be doubled when he returns, and allows him to cap speed far more earlier, as to crown him sooner. Again minor, but there is a point to be made.

The only scenario where you wouldn't be able to get Ilyana up there in time is when you literally ferry Micaiah to the top for the Speed Sieze. In all other cases, Ilyana has the same MV and more durability than Micaiah, so she can easily just follow the path of destruction and be right near the chest.

I'm sorry, I had efficiency in mind. Apparently you want to go it slow. If we're going slow, we're in danger due to the map design itself. Jarod's got 3 authority stars, so good luck hitting anything with thunder magic. Illyana's still fragile, and I wouldn't expose her to any more danger than I would Michaiah. This still doesn't solve the fact that by the time she would get close to the chest, Nailah could have basically won this map.

Your sarcasm fails. Efficient play means that having another GM who can ORKO consistently is a good thing. If they do more for efficient play with the Wing than another team would, then logic suggests that it's reasonable for them to get the Wing.

This is pending on a wing not only being taken from another team, but that Titania lands it. On top of that, she'd need a crown. Or, I could give the crown to Gatrie who'd be doing the same thing without speed wing (of which he could use the one later we get naturally, since no one else would put it to as good use save..Kyza?), and same speed wing to someone like Kyza (who's now basically Boyd but tankier), or Brom (doubling his durability), or Rolf (he'll be doubling quite a bit sooner, and stacking with his leveling speed he'd make it count), or Rhys so he can actually avoid being doubled, increasing his durability substantially.

You don't need two people solo'ing a map to play it efficiently. Especially since it gives you Haar the flying tank and the lolHawks. Even considering, she took 2 things, meaning it's possible she reduced our soli'ing unit number from a possible two to just 1.

Let's not forget that Titania is an axe-wielding STR-goddess, such that going from not doubling to doubling is a big deal. It would not be a big deal for someone like Oscar, for example, who is already borderline on killing loladins cleanly. Keep some perspective, here.

Yet without that speedwing, she's nothing but Boyd on a horse without bonds.

In fact, looking into it, if I got Meg to level 17, gave her a wing and promoted her...A. She's not getting doubled by cats, of which even the strongest 3RKO her, but now she can basically double all but the 1 badass tiger. So uhh...She can improve dramatically.

In fact, with that in mind, she could 2RKO the weakest tigers with a steel forge.

Everything else aside from the badass tiger is a clean 3RKO. Thanks to heaven affinity, she's also never gonna miss these things. Ever. Even with a non-acc boosting support, she would be running 90s on tigers and 80's-70's on cats with an average steel blade, of which we could get roughly the same power. Now if only someone wanted a heaven support...

Edited August 26, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Interceptor]

Minor nitpick: RNG-screwing isn't a good argument, especially when we're considering that we're following the averages. Let's not get hasty in that department (only reason to mention it: I saw someone mention RNG-screwed Ike).

RNG-screwing is a perfectly valid argument, because it happens. Ignoring it is tantamount to ignoring that a unit can miss.

I'm sorry, I had efficiency in mind. Apparently you want to go it slow. If we're going slow, we're in danger due to the map design itself. Jarod's got 3 authority stars, so good luck hitting anything with thunder magic. Illyana's still fragile, and I wouldn't expose her to any more danger than I would Michaiah. This still doesn't solve the fact that by the time she would get close to the chest, Nailah could have basically won this map.

If you are assuming that this map is always played this way, be prepared to assume that the DB just dropped a bunch of levels for Part 3, because none of them can take kills. If you are not assuming that this map is always played this way, logic suggests that those times that it is not, are times that the GMs have a good opportunity to get the Wing.

This is pending on a wing not only being taken from another team, but that Titania lands it. On top of that, she'd need a crown. Or, I could give the crown to Gatrie who'd be doing the same thing without speed wing (of which he could use the one later we get naturally, since no one else would put it to as good use save..Kyza?), and same speed wing to someone like Kyza (who's now basically Boyd but tankier), or Brom (doubling his durability), or Rolf (he'll be doubling quite a bit sooner, and stacking with his leveling speed he'd make it count), or Rhys so he can actually avoid being doubled, increasing his durability substantially.

You don't need two people solo'ing a map to play it efficiently. Especially since it gives you Haar the flying tank and the lolHawks. Even considering, she took 2 things, meaning it's possible she reduced our soli'ing unit number from a possible two to just 1.

Enough with the Kyza stuff already. He sucks, get over it. None of those other people you mentioned do better than Titania with a Wing.

Two people soloing a map as the sole definition of efficiency is not even close to what I suggested, so I'll just assume that you've departed with reality and started arguing with someone who doesn't exist.

Yet without that speedwing, she's nothing but Boyd on a horse without bonds.

The difference between Titania and Boyd is that she doubles with a Speedwing and he does not. Removing something that differentiates these two units has the effect of invalidating your comparison.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Interceptor

[grandjackal]

If you are assuming that this map is always played this way, be prepared to assume that the DB just dropped a bunch of levels for Part 3, because none of them can take kills. If you are not assuming that this map is always played this way, logic suggests that those times that it is not, are times that the GMs have a good opportunity to get the Wing.

Plenty of units can afford to not be level 20/1. I was assuming it's how it was played anyways, and I see no reason why we should make it harder on ourselves just so Illyna can put the wing in her pocket to take it specifically to the mercs.

Even considering, you'd THINK we could send better than Illyana to go through the map like this. By now, she's far from the best cantidate. We got Zihark, Nolan, Sothe, Nailah, Volug, Muarim, Tormod, Vika, Aran, Jill, Laura, Raphael, I recall the number of units you can bring here being relatively small.

Enough with the Kyza stuff already. He sucks, get over it. None of those other people you mentioned do better than Titania with a Wing.

I'd like a non-dying Rhys, I'd like a Neph doubling sooner for crowning herself or just making it easier to train her as it's not like we HAVE to crown her right away like a red haired person I know, Brom is not getting doubled and is basically twice the wall Titania is, Rolf has the benefit that once he starts doubling, he stays like that, same goes for Jill and Nolan.

Two people soloing a map as the sole definition of efficiency is not even close to what I suggested, so I'll just assume that you've departed with reality and started arguing with someone who doesn't exist.

Then what the hell are you arguing about?

The difference between Titania and Boyd is that she doubles with a Speedwing and he does not. Removing something that differentiates these two units has the effect of invalidating your comparison.

She needs a wing and a CROWN to be doubling, good sir. Sure, Boyd would need 5 levels first, but the effects on him would last quite a bit longer. Not like it's hard to get him 5 levels, considering he's half Ti's level.

It's rediculous. I know FE10 is a resource game, but it just assumes favoritism. The only thing seperating Ti from Boyd is favoritism. Yet we just assume Titania gets it. Why? Because apparently we want to gratuitously suck GM cock for no apparent reason. She needs a wing and a crown. We don't get a wing until 3-9.

BUT THE DB WING!

They got people that want it too, but apparently fuck 'em, their part of the game doesn't matter even though it exists and a speed wing can help make it that much easier, not to mention the method of getting it to the mercs is retarded in any sense be it slow play or speedy.

CRK?

Valid point, as Neph, Brom, Haar, Mordy or Lethe could nab it. Thing is, someone like Boyd, Rolf, Gatrie himself, Haar, they could put it to good use themselves, yet for some reason it's implied Titania can just get it. Favoritism's ok if it has no competition, and unfortunately it does. I can assume Gatrie can get the first crown, because the other two viables (Haar, Ti) need speed wings on top of it to match Gatrie's combat prowess.

You can't have 3 people use 1 wing. Either assume one has total priority over it, or measure people how they would be like normal, without boosters.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Interceptor]

Plenty of units can afford to not be level 20/1. I was assuming it's how it was played anyways, and I see no reason why we should make it harder on ourselves just so Illyna can put the wing in her pocket to take it specifically to the mercs.

You don't see a reason for it because you're not thinking about it. Consider that a Speedwing makes Part 3 easier for the GMs, but has no like effect on the DB's Part 3. In beating the game as fast as possible, you are slowing yourself down, ironically. And that's a real irony, not the fake Alanis Morisette "funny coincidence" kind.

Even considering, you'd THINK we could send better than Illyana to go through the map like this. By now, she's far from the best cantidate. We got Zihark, Nolan, Sothe, Nailah, Volug, Muarim, Tormod, Vika, Aran, Jill, Laura, Raphael, I recall the number of units you can bring here being relatively small.

Ilyana does not have to fight. We have 12 deployment slots and only three of them are taken up by forced-deployment.

I'd like a non-dying Rhys, I'd like a Neph doubling sooner for crowning herself or just making it easier to train her as it's not like we HAVE to crown her right away like a red haired person I know, Brom is not getting doubled and is basically twice the wall Titania is, Rolf has the benefit that once he starts doubling, he stays like that, same goes for Jill and Nolan.

I'd like to Wing Mia and cap one of her stats instantly, but that doesn't make it a good idea. All of those things you mentioned are less efficient for game complention for Winging Titania. For your argument to be, then, that you do it because you'd "like" it, means that you're arguing for ineffient play. Which, by the way, runs completely counter to what you just argued for 1-E. I don't mind people who switch sides, but please don't do it IN THE SAME POST.

Then what the hell are you arguing about?

I have been very clear that the GMs gettign the Wing is better for game ocmpletion than the DB keeping it. The plethora of people who make chapters easier with +2 SPD is evidence of this.

She needs a wing and a CROWN to be doubling, good sir. Sure, Boyd would need 5 levels first, but the effects on him would last quite a bit longer. Not like it's hard to get him 5 levels, considering he's half Ti's level.

Titania has 23 SPD with a Speedwing, which is as much as Ike at base. She needs a crown to double everything but non-Swordmasters consistently, but even the Wing by itself is not negligable like it would be on Boyd. And even in the case where she needs a Wing and a Crown: so what? It is what it is. We look at the opportunity cost and rank her accordingly.

[grandjackal]

You don't see a reason for it because you're not thinking about it. Consider that a Speedwing makes Part 3 easier for the GMs, but has no like effect on the DB's Part 3. In beating the game as fast as possible, you are slowing yourself down, ironically. And that's a real irony, not the fake Alanis Morisette "funny coincidence" kind.

What, are the GM chapters not easy enough for you? If the DB chapters are so rediculously easy that they don't need stat boosters over THE MERCS, then I have no reason to give them to the mercs, as it would mean the DB are performing better in their chapters.

Ilyana does not have to fight. We have 12 deployment slots and only three of them are taken up by forced-deployment.

This leaves no room for Illyana regardless, and having a unit around that's just not fighting or fighting terribly for the sole purpose of getting a wing the DB can use anyways to the mercs just because apparently Titania is no good without it, then I argue your ideal of efficiency.

I'd like to Wing Mia and cap one of her stats instantly, but that doesn't make it a good idea. All of those things you mentioned are less efficient for game complention for Winging Titania. For your argument to be, then, that you do it because you'd "like" it, means that you're arguing for ineffient play. Which, by the way, runs completely counter to what you just argued for 1-E. I don't mind people who switch sides, but please don't do it IN THE SAME POST.

Except Titania needs more than a damn wing! She needs a crown on top of it. Gatrie can use the crown better, and Ike can use the wing better. By priority, Titania's shit out of luck. I could have 2-ass kicking bastards, and you only want one.

I have been very clear that the GMs gettign the Wing is better for game ocmpletion than the DB keeping it. The plethora of people who make chapters easier with +2 SPD is evidence of this.

You realize +2 speed does not help Titania outside of 3-P through 3-2, and that you could get the same results from crowning? I can only see Haar deserving an immediate speed wing and crowning as he can basically do anything you would ever want then. He doesn't even need the boosts to be good...Hey, someone doesn't need boosts to be good...Sort of like stat boosters are unnecessary for efficient play.

Titania has 23 SPD with a Speedwing, which is as much as Ike at base. She needs a crown to double everything but non-Swordmasters consistently, but even the Wing by itself is not negligable like it would be on Boyd. And even in the case where she needs a Wing and a Crown: so what? It is what it is. We look at the opportunity cost and rank her accordingly.

Ike's base stops doubling after 3-2. His speed growth is far from shiny. The wing lets him double instantly, and basically forever from there. No crown on top of it. He gets the wing ahead of Titania. Let's say we brought both wings. Haar with the wing and crown is infinitely better than Titania. Titania gets neither the crown or the wing. Gatrie would only like a crown, and he can afford to wait a bit as he's got levels to gain anyways. He can crown and is now doubling for basically the rest of part 3, no wing attached. Gatrie>Titania.

Ike could get that wing and Gatrie/Haar could get that crown. 2>1, I think she should drop. You assume no priorities on a limited resource, because if that's the case then Kyza should skyrocket.

[Narga_Rocks]

Since Robo Ky apparently completely ignored it where I first posted it and still seems to think Titania is taking a crown and that a speedwing alone doesn't help:

21 speed. 50% speed growth. level 16 tier 2. Leveling really slowly. 2 levels is likely happening around 3-4 or something.

12 enemies in 3-2 already doubled with the speedwing that weren't without. Plus 10 reinforcements, as well.

In 3-3, 9 extra enemies. Only 3 extra reinforcements, though.

In 3-4, she has 22 speed, or 24 with the speedwing. Let's say she hits level 20 for 3-10, so she's got 24 speed until then. 22 without the wing.

17 enemies doubled with the speedwing that weren't without.

+ 1 reinforcement.

In 3-5:

21 enemies doubled with the speedwing that weren't without.

+ 14 reinforcements.

In 3-7:

13 enemies.

+ 8 reinforcements.

In 3-8:

14 enemies, one of which is the boss.

+ 5 reinforcements.

In 3-10, 23 speed without the wing, 25 speed with.

23 enemies doubled with the wing that weren't without.

+ 4 reinforcements (all)

In 3-11, let's say we crowned her, or since 3-10 has decent leveled enemies maybe she got enough exp to get a level in just one chapter. Or she got to 70 exp and we gave her a bit of bexp to promote.

25 speed without the wing, 27 speed with.

Only 5 enemies doubled thanks to the wing that weren't before, and just 1 reinforcement, but at this point, oh well.

3-E.

Only 8, and no reinforcements.

Still, pretty massive improvement with the wing, especially since she ORKOs like all these things now, and didn't before. And we can tailor her weapon selection now to bring things down to like 5 hp if we want rather than the 15 to 20 she'd leave some things at before.

And since you still seem to think Ilyana sucks in 1-E:

As for Ilyana, there's multiple things you could do there.

A Steel Axe forge, maybe. Nolan could use the extra damage in 1-E in order to KO weakened stuff. Doesn't need that steel forge in part 3 where he has Tarvos. Save money for the GMs if Ilyana takes it from him towards the end of 1-E. There's a coin in a chest. Doesn't do anyone any good with the DB in part 3. A fire forge for Tormod to use since he misses a fair number of kills with his 7 mt elfire, and there can be hit issues thanks to stars. Doesn't do anyone any good with Tormod holding it until 4-4, doesn't do the rest of the DB any good in part 3. Ilyana can take it to the GMs for use by her or Soren there. Fire can't be forged in 3-2, by the way. Also, she's a mage. Better 2 range than any of your unpromoted units except Micaiah. Even Leo doesn't do as well thanks to low strength and the def/res gap. Also, she'll have more accuracy than hand axe/javelin/wind edge users. There's plenty of reasons to deploy her. The awesome that is having speedwing Haar and speedwing Titania alone is enough for that. The DB doesn't really need it for part 3, and otherwise we have rather limited high damage doubling options. Ilyana can do fine in 1-E for herself, we have a few deployment slots. It could go to Micaiah so she isn't doubled anymore, but we could instead just not let her be attacked. It could go to Aran, but he's never doubling anyway so it might mean not getting doubled by swordmasters. And 9 chapters vs. 3 and a half is a big mountain to climb.

Are you completely ignoring the thunder forge that was likely made earlier? Ilyana is doing way better at two range than any tier 1 unit not named Micaiah. Even Leo isn't doing better. He at least has the option of forging for more hit like she does, but he does less damage thanks to the def/res gap and a low str growth and base. Also, to forge a steel bow for 1 chapter for a guy who is getting a super weapon next chapter? Another thing for Ilyana to cart to the GMs for which she needs to be deployed. The thing certainly isn't going to be used much in 3-6. Without the steel forge, she does lots more damage than him and his iron forge. And they are both likely 2RKOd anyway. Oh, and if you want to talk Nailah ferrying Micaiah? What about Vika ferrying Ilyana? If Nailah is soloing the joint then Vika's offence clearly doesn't matter. By the way, how is anyone grabbing that chest anyway? If Nailah is running up there alone then who's getting the chest? Nailah herself on the turn in which Micaiah seizes? Then it's gone until 4-1.

And you ignore this:

The GMs goes much faster and easier if they have 2 speedwings. It doesn't even have to go to Haar and Titania if you don't want. Even your beloved Kyza could now get a speedwing without preventing one of Haar and Titania from getting it. Haar with a speedwing and a crown: High move, flight, doubling. Death from above. Have Heather steal the DB's 3-6 crown during 3-7. He should hopefully have 24 speed by 3-8 with a wing. 26 speed with crown. Better part 3, better part 4. Or Boyd, whatever.

Look, it does''t really speed up the DBs part 3. If you care about beating 1-E quickly, then think about the number of turns shaved off in part 3 by having:

Ike, Haar, Gatrie, Mia, Janaff (w/energy drop), Titania, Ulki (w/ two levels bexp and tear) going around destroying things. Where did you possibly come up with the idea we are duoing the GM chapters? Do you even understand our statements?

And just to reiterate, how does Kyza apply to your "instant is better" philosophy? We sit on the 2-3 speedwing (since deploying Ilyana in 1-E is now a crime) and don't use it for anyone in 2-E, 3-2, 3-3. Not to mention, it goes to waste in 3-5 since Kyza isn't there. Out of 5 chapters you could be using it, Kyza uses it in 1. Wow.

And how is Kyza a good choice when he delays use for so many chapters of using it and it doesn't hurt him but a couple chapters delay hurts others in your eyes?

You don't see a reason for it because you're not thinking about it. Consider that a Speedwing makes Part 3 easier for the GMs, but has no like effect on the DB's Part 3. In beating the game as fast as possible, you are slowing yourself down, ironically. And that's a real irony, not the fake Alanis Morisette "funny coincidence" kind.

What, are the GM chapters not easy enough for you? If the DB chapters are so rediculously easy that they don't need stat boosters over THE MERCS, then I have no reason to give them to the mercs, as it would mean the DB are performing better in their chapters.

If Titania reduces the turn count 1 turn per chapter thanks to that speedwing, she does better than other options. Why do you whine about efficient completion of 1-E and then completely ignore how the speedwing makes part 3 go much faster? It isn't just about: oh, we can beat it easily enough without doing that. Well, guess what, we can beat 1-E easily enough with deploying Ilyana and getting her that wing.

Ilyana does not have to fight. We have 12 deployment slots and only three of them are taken up by forced-deployment.

This leaves no room for Illyana regardless, and having a unit around that's just not fighting or fighting terribly for the sole purpose of getting a wing the DB can use anyways to the mercs just because apparently Titania is no good without it, then I argue your ideal of efficiency.

Considering the number posts I've made about Ilyana and 1-E, do you read? "sole purpose of getting a wing the DB can use anyways to the mercs". Where is that coming from? She grabs at least 3 items from being deployed in 1-E, and has better 2 range offence than Jill, Nolan, Aran, etc. Don't ignore the thunder forge. Think about how a 60 hit javelin competes with a thunder forge for accuracy.

I'd like to Wing Mia and cap one of her stats instantly, but that doesn't make it a good idea. All of those things you mentioned are less efficient for game complention for Winging Titania. For your argument to be, then, that you do it because you'd "like" it, means that you're arguing for ineffient play. Which, by the way, runs completely counter to what you just argued for 1-E. I don't mind people who switch sides, but please don't do it IN THE SAME POST.

Except Titania needs more than a damn wing! She needs a crown on top of it. Gatrie can use the crown better, and Ike can use the wing better. By priority, Titania's shit out of luck. I could have 2-ass kicking bastards, and you only want one.

lrn2read.

I have been very clear that the GMs gettign the Wing is better for game ocmpletion than the DB keeping it. The plethora of people who make chapters easier with +2 SPD is evidence of this.

You realize +2 speed does not help Titania outside of 3-P through 3-2, and that you could get the same results from crowning? I can only see Haar deserving an immediate speed wing and crowning as he can basically do anything you would ever want then. He doesn't even need the boosts to be good...Hey, someone doesn't need boosts to be good...Sort of like stat boosters are unnecessary for efficient play.

You realize you don't read, right? I've shown before the improvements of that wing outside of 3-2. Lots of improvement. And yes, Haar can have the 2-3 wing in 2-E, I've said it before. He gets an extra chapter out of that one than Titania, so I can't really ignore it. Then he gets the DB's 3-6 crown in the 3-8 base thanks to Heather in 3-7. Then he starts ripping things apart, too. How are stat boosters unnecessary for efficient play? An extra unit one rounding can really speed things up at times. And no, you don't get the same thing from crowning. First off, Titania getting the 3-3 crown without also having a wing is stupid. Second off, she doesn't get the 3-2 and 3-3 benefit I've shown. Third off, you kill her leveling speed completely and she starts part 4 with 24 speed rather than 27 speed. Crown Titania? Not getting the "same results".

Titania has 23 SPD with a Speedwing, which is as much as Ike at base. She needs a crown to double everything but non-Swordmasters consistently, but even the Wing by itself is not negligable like it would be on Boyd. And even in the case where she needs a Wing and a Crown: so what? It is what it is. We look at the opportunity cost and rank her accordingly.

Ike's base stops doubling after 3-2. His speed growth is far from shiny. The wing lets him double instantly, and basically forever from there. No crown on top of it. He gets the wing ahead of Titania. Let's say we brought both wings. Haar with the wing and crown is infinitely better than Titania. Titania gets neither the crown or the wing. Gatrie would only like a crown, and he can afford to wait a bit as he's got levels to gain anyways. He can crown and is now doubling for basically the rest of part 3, no wing attached. Gatrie>Titania.

Ike could get that wing and Gatrie/Haar could get that crown. 2>1, I think she should drop. You assume no priorities on a limited resource, because if that's the case then Kyza should skyrocket.

Or, you know, Gatrie gets the 3-3 crown, Haar gets the 2-3 wing and 3-6 crown, Titania gets the 1-E wing in 3-2, Ike gets levels and a bit of slowplaying and doubles almost everything forever at the cost of doubling a bit less in 3-3 and maybe 3-4. Oh well. Titania now doubling in those chapters balances it and we actually get to have both units doing awesome the rest of the game rather than just one. 2 > 1, as you said. I think she should get it rather than him.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

In fairness...I didn't even see that post...

*BZZT!*

[Narga_Rocks]

In fairness...I didn't even see that post...

*BZZT!*

Sorry. It got edited a few times after it was posted, but it was almost a day before anyone responded, so I thought maybe...

Also, my comparison between Titania and Gatrie here in this topic a few posts ago in response to Ether assumed a Titania with just a wing and not even getting a crown ever and simply promoting naturally. In fact, I didn't even bother with bexp levels after level 18. Speed is #3 at this point and .1 above the next, luck at .4 compared to speed at .5. A pretty good chance of pulling 25 speed for level 19 rather than level 20. I just didn't want to bother with what it does to her stats throughout the rest of the game.

Anyway, I'm not actually certain about Titania v. Mia.

Titania wins more in 3-P and 3-1 vs. Mia than Gatrie did. Gats had low move, thickets in the way, and not doubling much. Mia had an actual win in offence and still isn't paper. Where Titania is concerned, she doubles a bit more, has some bonds and more strength than Boyd so a fair shot at prying the killer axe from his hands. Then she's got wicked move for 3-1, not as hurt by thickets in 3-P, and while she doesn't have Gatrie's durability she's got significantly more concrete at this point than Mia. In 3-2, she's gonna have 23 speed with the wing so she's doing much better here vs. Mia than Gatrie was. Then she starts missing on doubling some things along the way, which basically cancels any wins she may have vs. Mia, since Mia has a 70% proc on the things Titania ORKOs that Mia doesn't 100% ORKO, and a 70% proc on what Titania doesn't double. Really it's generals vs. swordmasters because the extra pallies she ORKOs are balanced by what she doesn't double and Mia has a much better shot at killing.

This continues until around 3-10 or so when Titania starts doubling more, though I don't see promotion until 3-11 so she's still missing some things in 3-10. Now, while vs. Gatrie it isn't too big a deal to miss out on doubling ~10 enemies per map for a while because later on she doubles more than he does and can mitigate her earlier losses thanks to reaching the enemies earlier, she doesn't have the whole extra part 4 doubling thing against Mia she had vs. Gatrie. Mia in fact doubles a fair bit more than Titania and doesn't have to wait until turn 3 or 4 before getting the levels to double in 4-1 and 4-4. Also, Titania might double those 27 speed warriors later in 4-4, Mia will.

But then Titania doesn't have as massive a hit difference as Gatrie does thanks to higher skl/lck. She's still missing things with a brave anything much more than Mia is with a vague katti, though.

Really, vs. Mia, Titania's wins are smaller than Gatrie's wins were in 3-3 to 3-10, her wins are bigger in 3-P and 3-1 and 3-2, and 3-11, Mia's wins are smaller vs. Titania in part 4 than they were vs. Gatrie in part 4.

3-4, 3-7, 3-8, 4-4 all reduce or eliminate the wins of a horse, but it's still there at other times and canto is nice for more dragon skill access in 4-E. In all, I have no idea.

Without the 1-E wing, though, Titania's horse does not make up for getting whomped offensively forever. Well, a few chapters here and there aren't as bad like 4-E-3 and some others, but she's never winning by enough or in enough chapters to actually make a difference offensively, and they are pretty similar defensively when both have earth. More avo vs. more concrete durability. And Mia can get shoved to make up for mov a little sometimes, and Titania can't. I'm thinking some dragons can shove her while they are transformed, but most other laguz don't get the 31 con to move her. And she likely ups her 33 wt to 35 or something after promotion. Volug, for example, has 20 con. I'm not sure on transformed Mordy, but I think he's high 20s con while transformed, with wt in the mid 40s.

Still, I'm kinda up in the air on this one.

As for Titania vs. Sothe, she is way better in part 4, and rather nice in part 3, but Sothe has chapters of being the best by far and Titania is never even the best.

[Interceptor]

Well, after that air strike by Narga, I don't think I have to address any of those Speedwing issues anymore.

About Titania v. Mia: Narga, I think that you are making too little of the durability issue that Titania has. Gatrie is effectively invincible and Mia ia aiming towards invincibility, so a lot got papered over in the translation. Also, while it's reasonable to posit that Titania has an Earth support, is it is no way/shape/form like a MiaxIke match-up. Titania is offensively superior to her partner in this case, her partner is not force-deployed, he's not High tier, and she's not giving him the affinity that he needs to get out of his hole.

They do match MV and share the same mobility concerns (aka they will be going in the same places anyway), so that's a plus, but we're not talking peanut butter and jelly, here.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, after that air strike by Narga, I don't think I have to address any of those Speedwing issues anymore.

About Titania v. Mia: Narga, I think that you are making too little of the durability issue that Titania has. Gatrie is effectively invincible and Mia ia aiming towards invincibility, so a lot got papered over in the translation. Also, while it's reasonable to posit that Titania has an Earth support, is it is no way/shape/form like a MiaxIke match-up. Titania is offensively superior to her partner in this case, her partner is not force-deployed, he's not High tier, and she's not giving him the affinity that he needs to get out of his hole.

They do match MV and share the same mobility concerns (aka they will be going in the same places anyway), so that's a plus, but we're not talking peanut butter and jelly, here.

I actually did mention some of those issues a little in one of my earlier posts, but kind of forgot about it in my last one. Oops.

Come to think of it, though, that Oscar support may not always allow Titania to position herself such that she is attacked rather than Oscar. Not really sure what to do about it. Durability drop otherwise, and I'm not really sure who would be a good partner for Titania other than Oscar, since the only offence/defence unit with 9 move is Haar, and Haar comes in 3-2 and spends time away from home. Waiting for Ulki/Janaff = bad.

Ideas anyone? Maybe just accept that she doesn't get attacked all the time like Mia would and just assume there are times she can get in range of a good number of enemies while Oscar isn't also in their range? With no support she loses defence and with a support the partner may just get attacked. At least Oscar with A Titania can just about take whatever is given him. Trouble is the loss in enemy phase damage, but still at least he won't die like other supporters of Titania might.

I still wonder for Oscar about that +mt support. I'd really really like it if Marcia or Geoffrey existed in 3-2 and beyond, because then Oscar's best partner is someone else, and Marcia would have time to grow and she'd be doubling things like Nephenee and be a good partner for Oscar. Gives him more mt, more hit with the low hit weapons, lets him use his Earth all the time, and thanks to the two of them having similar str issues, neither one is going to take all the enemy action from the other. Well, until Marcia doubles everything but swordmasters and Oscar doesn't double things, then they attack Oscar rather than Marcia and that blows. Still, if Marcia appeared in 3-2 or better yet 3-P they'd be disgusting. Well, as disgusting as two units that never ORKO much can get.

As it is, there are issues with a Titania x Oscar support, but issues with Oscar x anyone else as well. Boyd doesn't give Oscar +def or +avo, so his durability would never be quite as reliable as Mia's. Boyd has differing move and now doesn't get a support in 3-4 and 3-7 and either goes supportless in 4-4 or maybe they go to 4-5 or maybe they both go along the bottom in 4-4. Anyway, you are right, though, it isn't on the same level as Mia x Ike in terms of being a symbiotic relationship. It isn't quite a parasitic relationship, Oscar gets a few good things. But it's mostly pro Titania.

And there is the other part about so many enemies attacking Oscar instead of Titania if they try to rush in. Ike x Mia don't care. Ike doesn't need massive kill counts in part 3 since he has a forced promotion, Mia makes it easier to slowplay Ike without hurting efficiency, and if an enemy for whatever crazy reason decides to attack Ike rather than Mia, well, sucks to be him.

That alone is probably enough for Mia > Titania.

[Ether]

In fairness...I didn't even see that post...

*BZZT!*

Sorry. It got edited a few times after it was posted, but it was almost a day before anyone responded, so I thought maybe...

Also, my comparison between Titania and Gatrie here in this topic a few posts ago in response to Ether assumed a Titania with just a wing and not even getting a crown ever and simply promoting naturally. In fact, I didn't even bother with bexp levels after level 18. Speed is #3 at this point and .1 above the next, luck at .4 compared to speed at .5. A pretty good chance of pulling 25 speed for level 19 rather than level 20. I just didn't want to bother with what it does to her stats throughout the rest of the game.

Anyway, I'm not actually certain about Titania v. Mia.

Titania wins more in 3-P and 3-1 vs. Mia than Gatrie did. Gats had low move, thickets in the way, and not doubling much. Mia had an actual win in offence and still isn't paper. Where Titania is concerned, she doubles a bit more, has some bonds and more strength than Boyd so a fair shot at prying the killer axe from his hands. Then she's got wicked move for 3-1, not as hurt by thickets in 3-P, and while she doesn't have Gatrie's durability she's got significantly more concrete at this point than Mia. In 3-2, she's gonna have 23 speed with the wing so she's doing much better here vs. Mia than Gatrie was. Then she starts missing on doubling some things along the way, which basically cancels any wins she may have vs. Mia, since Mia has a 70% proc on the things Titania ORKOs that Mia doesn't 100% ORKO, and a 70% proc on what Titania doesn't double. Really it's generals vs. swordmasters because the extra pallies she ORKOs are balanced by what she doesn't double and Mia has a much better shot at killing.

This continues until around 3-10 or so when Titania starts doubling more, though I don't see promotion until 3-11 so she's still missing some things in 3-10. Now, while vs. Gatrie it isn't too big a deal to miss out on doubling ~10 enemies per map for a while because later on she doubles more than he does and can mitigate her earlier losses thanks to reaching the enemies earlier, she doesn't have the whole extra part 4 doubling thing against Mia she had vs. Gatrie. Mia in fact doubles a fair bit more than Titania and doesn't have to wait until turn 3 or 4 before getting the levels to double in 4-1 and 4-4. Also, Titania might double those 27 speed warriors later in 4-4, Mia will.

But then Titania doesn't have as massive a hit difference as Gatrie does thanks to higher skl/lck. She's still missing things with a brave anything much more than Mia is with a vague katti, though.

Really, vs. Mia, Titania's wins are smaller than Gatrie's wins were in 3-3 to 3-10, her wins are bigger in 3-P and 3-1 and 3-2, and 3-11, Mia's wins are smaller vs. Titania in part 4 than they were vs. Gatrie in part 4.

3-4, 3-7, 3-8, 4-4 all reduce or eliminate the wins of a horse, but it's still there at other times and canto is nice for more dragon skill access in 4-E. In all, I have no idea.

Without the 1-E wing, though, Titania's horse does not make up for getting whomped offensively forever. Well, a few chapters here and there aren't as bad like 4-E-3 and some others, but she's never winning by enough or in enough chapters to actually make a difference offensively, and they are pretty similar defensively when both have earth. More avo vs. more concrete durability. And Mia can get shoved to make up for mov a little sometimes, and Titania can't. I'm thinking some dragons can shove her while they are transformed, but most other laguz don't get the 31 con to move her. And she likely ups her 33 wt to 35 or something after promotion. Volug, for example, has 20 con. I'm not sure on transformed Mordy, but I think he's high 20s con while transformed, with wt in the mid 40s.

Still, I'm kinda up in the air on this one.

As for Titania vs. Sothe, she is way better in part 4, and rather nice in part 3, but Sothe has chapters of being the best by far and Titania is never even the best.

Just to point out.Titania doubling in 3-P and 3-1 is pretty rediculous,it`s only Sages and Generals.Even at that,she misses a good number of those too.

Compared to Mia,it`s again,against most things,both 2RKO,but Mia has Proc rates,so she pulls an offensive edge.And durability wise,they are closer.

I would say they are even here.

In 3-2,both get an offense boost,while Titania doubles the pally swarm,Mia gets a higher Proc rate(+ 15 crit over steel sword),as well as more att.

Looking at it,If Mia got the DB`s brave sword(Z doubles everything anyway,and DB`s part 3 is mostly defense),she ORKO`s anything that isn`t a general(She misses one Halb and one Blade paladin,but she has 4 hits to proc something.

In 3-3,Ti fails to double Halbs/Snipers,of which there are quite a few,so Mia pulls an offense lead,and Ti is lol in 3-4.

In 3-5,Ti misses halbs/warriors again,but she can tackle the loladin swarm,so it`s not a blowout.But Mia still has the brave sword to jack up her offense if she needs it.

In 3-7,Mia wins again due to water,and by 3-8,Mia is leveled to the point where she ORKO's pretty reliably,while Ti doesn't double everything.

During the rest of part 3,Ti catches up in offense,but never really wins now that Mia is ORKOing.

In part 4,Ti's doubling takes a bit of a hit,while Mia is happily killing everything with insane Proc rates,if she doesn't kill it outright.

So I would say Mia over Titania at least,Ièm not so sure about gatrie though...maybe she can go between Mia and Gatrie?

[Florete]

For those who think Leanne should drop to right above Rafiel, read this post from Narga a few pages back.

She makes 2-P routable without Haar. While that doesn't seem like much, it does mean more exp for Elincia and more exp for Marcia. Since Elincia starts a bit low leveled in 4-2, more exp means a possibly higher level. With her growths, even one level is significant, and generally means about 2 or 3 turns more Elincihax if she is given paragon for 4-2, since she'll be quad-ing or killing in 2 hits that much sooner. Also, Marcia has an extra level for being better in 2-3, 2-E, 3-9. This is about the only point in the game in which a character makes other chapters easier. In 2-2 you have one grass that needs to be passed around and 3 different laguz that worry about untransforming. Offensively, it's mostly Brom and Nephenee and Lucia vs. Lethe, Mordecai, and Nealuchi. There are about the same number of beorc fighters as laguz. Heather isn't really a full fighter. Vigor is more important here than any of reyson's chapters, really, since it's a 7 turn limit and I'm not sure it's possible to do it when you can't have Mordy attack and grass. It could be doable, but Leanne makes it much easier. And easier to get the discipline scroll and steal the secret book. In 2-E, your only unit that ORKOs just about everything happens to also be the only healer over which we have complete control. IS is kinda evil at times. Leanne means you don't have as hard a choice. Blick + heal, or heal + heal, or Blick + blick. Not just blick or heal. Rather useful, that. Plus how most units don't ORKO much and vigoring is even more awesome. I'd think in Leanne's 3 part 2 chapters she does more than Reyson does in any 3 of his part 3 chapters. Trouble is, she's not so hot in 3-11 with the onagers, though still functional. Also, Reyson has 5 pre part 4 chapters to her almost 4. Then she's not as good in 4-E, but still rather good in 4-P and 4-3. Especially 4-3. Still, in 3-11 and part 4 it kind of hurts that she only ever gets 2 units vigored.

I suppose she could stand to drop to above Nailah, but she's really good in part 2. And more important than Reyson is in part 3. That's gotta mean something. Still, I guess she could at least go under Sothe, since he's pretty vital in early part 1 and still good for the rest of it and also pretty useful in part 3. Well, not really 3-12, but whatever. Utility in 4-3, forced in 4-E and capable of finishing most units kills when they don't ORKO. At least he can if he has the baselard. Even 42 mt finishes off a lot of leftovers, and that's just level 8/1 and assuming we broke the Sothe x Micaiah support. Sure, he's not awesome anymore, but he's not useless. And since he's free, anyone who goes by the negative utility thing can't really give him any until 4-E-4, and even then he's comparable to Gareth anyway.

And this cemented my idea that right above or below Nailah sounds right to me.

As for Titania, I'm not even sure what to do with her. Seeing her < Mia seems weird, but then again, so did Mia > Gatrie.

[Narga_Rocks]

Just to point out.Titania doubling in 3-P and 3-1 is pretty rediculous,it`s only Sages and Generals.Even at that,she misses a good number of those too.

Compared to Mia,it`s again,against most things,both 2RKO,but Mia has Proc rates,so she pulls an offensive edge.And durability wise,they are closer.

I would say they are even here.

In 3-2,both get an offense boost,while Titania doubles the pally swarm,Mia gets a higher Proc rate(+ 15 crit over steel sword),as well as more att.

Looking at it,If Mia got the DB`s brave sword(Z doubles everything anyway,and DB`s part 3 is mostly defense),she ORKO`s anything that isn`t a general(She misses one Halb and one Blade paladin,but she has 4 hits to proc something.

In 3-3,Ti fails to double Halbs/Snipers,of which there are quite a few,so Mia pulls an offense lead,and Ti is lol in 3-4.

In 3-5,Ti misses halbs/warriors again,but she can tackle the loladin swarm,so it`s not a blowout.But Mia still has the brave sword to jack up her offense if she needs it.

In 3-7,Mia wins again due to water,and by 3-8,Mia is leveled to the point where she ORKO's pretty reliably,while Ti doesn't double everything.

During the rest of part 3,Ti catches up in offense,but never really wins now that Mia is ORKOing.

In part 4,Ti's doubling takes a bit of a hit,while Mia is happily killing everything with insane Proc rates,if she doesn't kill it outright.

So I would say Mia over Titania at least,Ièm not so sure about gatrie though...maybe she can go between Mia and Gatrie?

I'm okay with Mia > Titania > Gatrie.

Also, as Int pointed out, another thing I left out is:

Ike is forced. Oscar is only upper mid.

That's on top of the issues like Oscar not getting +mt and Oscar getting attacked frequently rather than Titania if they are supporting. Without it, Titania has major durability issues relative to Mia. Being 4 or 5 HKOd for the most part and facing ~50% hit rates is still fine, but it's not on the level of being 3HKOd at <10% true hit rates. And eventually Mia getting to 4HKOd by a fair number of enemies in mid part 3 and even 5HKOd by many immediately after promotion. While still facing low low hit rates.

[Ether]

For those who think Leanne should drop to right above Rafiel, read this post from Narga a few pages back.

She makes 2-P routable without Haar. While that doesn't seem like much, it does mean more exp for Elincia and more exp for Marcia. Since Elincia starts a bit low leveled in 4-2, more exp means a possibly higher level. With her growths, even one level is significant, and generally means about 2 or 3 turns more Elincihax if she is given paragon for 4-2, since she'll be quad-ing or killing in 2 hits that much sooner. Also, Marcia has an extra level for being better in 2-3, 2-E, 3-9. This is about the only point in the game in which a character makes other chapters easier. In 2-2 you have one grass that needs to be passed around and 3 different laguz that worry about untransforming. Offensively, it's mostly Brom and Nephenee and Lucia vs. Lethe, Mordecai, and Nealuchi. There are about the same number of beorc fighters as laguz. Heather isn't really a full fighter. Vigor is more important here than any of reyson's chapters, really, since it's a 7 turn limit and I'm not sure it's possible to do it when you can't have Mordy attack and grass. It could be doable, but Leanne makes it much easier. And easier to get the discipline scroll and steal the secret book. In 2-E, your only unit that ORKOs just about everything happens to also be the only healer over which we have complete control. IS is kinda evil at times. Leanne means you don't have as hard a choice. Blick + heal, or heal + heal, or Blick + blick. Not just blick or heal. Rather useful, that. Plus how most units don't ORKO much and vigoring is even more awesome. I'd think in Leanne's 3 part 2 chapters she does more than Reyson does in any 3 of his part 3 chapters. Trouble is, she's not so hot in 3-11 with the onagers, though still functional. Also, Reyson has 5 pre part 4 chapters to her almost 4. Then she's not as good in 4-E, but still rather good in 4-P and 4-3. Especially 4-3. Still, in 3-11 and part 4 it kind of hurts that she only ever gets 2 units vigored.

I suppose she could stand to drop to above Nailah, but she's really good in part 2. And more important than Reyson is in part 3. That's gotta mean something. Still, I guess she could at least go under Sothe, since he's pretty vital in early part 1 and still good for the rest of it and also pretty useful in part 3. Well, not really 3-12, but whatever. Utility in 4-3, forced in 4-E and capable of finishing most units kills when they don't ORKO. At least he can if he has the baselard. Even 42 mt finishes off a lot of leftovers, and that's just level 8/1 and assuming we broke the Sothe x Micaiah support. Sure, he's not awesome anymore, but he's not useless. And since he's free, anyone who goes by the negative utility thing can't really give him any until 4-E-4, and even then he's comparable to Gareth anyway.

And this cemented my idea that right above or below Nailah sounds right to me.

As for Titania, I'm not even sure what to do with her. Seeing her < Mia seems weird, but then again, so did Mia > Gatrie.

Yeah,she is pretty great part 2...put Nailan is awesome part 1.

Whoever is consideres more useful pre part 4 should be on top,and no one should probably be between them.

And embrace the unknown Fox,it seems wierd,but her doubling is just too shaky for too long to be that high,and she really does ¨need that speedwing.

i can't believe that I took so long to remember that Mia is raping from 3-2 with the brave Sword.

[Interceptor]

As for Titania, I'm not even sure what to do with her. Seeing her < Mia seems weird, but then again, so did Mia > Gatrie.

I think that the reason it seems weird is that the argument for Mia has been approached from the perspective of snack foods, which is something that has not really been done to this point outside of Gatrie. Since she is underwhelming out of the box (consider Mia's performance without Adept, without a forge, with a mediocre support, and no Cancel... aka she has a Steel Blade and willpower) it's necessary to start ranking resources to properly represent what she's capable of.

The same approach might be able to move other people up or down.

[Narga_Rocks]

For those who think Leanne should drop to right above Rafiel, read this post from Narga a few pages back.

And this cemented my idea that right above or below Nailah sounds right to me.

Yeah,she is pretty great part 2...put Nailan is awesome part 1.

Whoever is consideres more useful pre part 4 should be on top,and no one should probably be between them.

As for Titania, I'm not even sure what to do with her. Seeing her < Mia seems weird, but then again, so did Mia > Gatrie.

And embrace the unknown Fox,it seems wierd,but her doubling is just too shaky for too long to be that high,and she really does ¨need that speedwing.

i can't believe that I took so long to remember that Mia is raping from 3-2 with the brave Sword.

I'm still not sure just how I feel about the brave sword. Really, offence isn't of extreme importance in the DBs part 3, but Ilyana can only transfer so many items, and having the brave sword to disintegrate a cat that won't die otherwise is still useful. It's a defence chapter, but part of the defence is making sure there are no injured enemies suiciding into player units and causing damage while the player unit clears space and gets killed by the next enemy. Maybe steal it in 3-7? Really, though, Heather can only nab so many things. Jill and Zihark are the simplest units, since Jill can be made to fly over alone and Zihark is on his own island. But even with using vigor on Heather, we don't likely want to leave Zihark around for too many turns so she's likely getting a max of 2 items from him and 1 or 2 from Jill. Since she has flight, if we don't take her out quick after drawing her she can fly over and attack something squishy. I'm already suggesting a silver dagger so Heather is less useless in 3-8 and 3-10 between steals/digging and the crown for Haar. I'm not sure she can steal too many things.

And I think thanks to Oscar's preferences and not-high-tier-ness I can see Mia > Titania anyway. It even hurts a bit vs. Gatrie.

And Titania can be significantly better in 3-P and 3-1 than Mia thanks to higher concrete durability, damaging Generals, the 8 or so enemies she doubles that Gatrie didn't, the possibility of a killer axe for having a better proc rate than doubling Mia with a steel sword... I just don't see anything resembling a tie between Titania and Mia. They effectively tie offensively from 3-3 to 3-10. Without a brave Mia loses out to Titania in 3-2. Then Titania wins in 3-11 and until Mia promotes. Also wins in 4-E-1 thanks to hammers and good hit, wins in 4-E-3 thanks to wyrmslayer (tying Mia's offence against whites but losing vs. reds) and canto and 3HKOd from reds rather than 2HKOd, I think.

Anyway, I still see Mia > Titania, but not in 3-P to 3-2, or 3-11. Well, if you can somehow get Mia to 20/1 for part of 3-11, then it's a different story, but I'm not convinced that's doable.

[grandjackal]

Sothe does have the advantage that he's pretty much forced there regardless. While he might never ORKO, Bane at least means that anyone that can at least do 1 damage can kill what he fucks up. At times, he could Bane and then kill the next shot, as much as there is a chance he would Bane twice, or Bane on the killing blow. But he has the advantage, he is forced and Titania isn't. I mean, if Ike weren't so damn necessary and forced, I probably wouldn't bring him to endgame either.

He does have Wind, which is the weirdest affinity for his situation. Light is all good, but Wind does have lategame advantages. First off, Sothe's resistance is pretty good for endgame deal. He's got Peshkatz. Chances of him being attacked are pretty slim, but here's another deal. Wind helps in all parts endgame. If you got the natural evade, supporting an evade support (I dunno, like the multitude of Earth supports the DB have, especially since 3 of the 4 are actually good to great by now?) would boost your avoid ot unholy levels. Wind helps him hit more often, along with his partner. So here's the scoop.

Part 1, he's god for pretty much most of it until Volug shows his awesome ass up. However, Sothe's still the second most awesome unit on the team by quite a margin. Knifes are pretty awesome to forge, and he's got an auto A with Michaiah for the chapters where he doesn't really need to be rooting around. Then let's say...Aran or Nolan kick in. Gee, wonder who could be made tankier to a severe point of trivializing parts just like Volug? Why Sothe of course!

Let's check him with a C Earth. Sorry if my numbers are off, but would I be correct in assuming that EarthxWind gives +3 acc a level along with +10 avoid? Either way, by 1-5...

Well at base he'd have about 65 avoid. If it's +12, it's 67. He's dipping people into the 30s. He's pulling FE6 Marcus numbers. To give you a reference, Volug is probably the most avoiding guy on the team so far, and he's got 52 base thanks to Wildheart. However, he has no access to a support, at least not for a while. Sothe is in fact behind 14 HP, but Sothe could actually pull off semi-reliable dodge. Another note is that Sothe has ranged weapons, and isn't a pussy to fire magic. Let's get Zihark in here, see what it's like for him.

Zihark has 57 avoid base. No access to a support currently, while Sothe could B with Nolan possibly (Narga, is this realistic? Don't wanna get too ahead of myself), or at least get an A before Zihark could get one by part 3. Both have an advantage over the other noob DB, that being access to Paragon. Only others currently are Volug (of which Wildheart kills his use of it along with being all laguz-y), and Zihark. Because of this, I'm willing to measure them at equal levels.

OK, Sothe maxes strength at level 8, of which Zihark cannot meet until he's level 18. Yeah yeah, swords are a stronger weapon type, but this doesn't stop teh fact that Sothe effectively stomps him until then offensively even with a weaker weapon. On top of that, we could also opt to let him keep his A with Michaiah. With his 1 Str lead and 2 point boost, he's beating Zihark by 3 on pure Str alone.

Let's fastforward to part 3 actually. Would level 8 for these hosers be a bit much?

3-6. Zihark has an offense lead on cats with 22 AS with his 26 AS. However, he's not 1RKOing anything, even with a steel blade and an offense support. However, he is 2RKOing. So, can Sothe match this? Well Sothe's not doubling any cat. He's got str maxed, so he's doing 23 damage with a non-forged bronze knife, 24 with a dagger. This is 9-12 damage basically. Might be wondering why I'm pulling out bronze in a catfight? Well here's the thing. Bronze don't activate crit. This means it's utterly safe to use in a defensive play, of which these chapters are. Sothe also has another option, oh yes...The beast slayer. Tripling it's might, he effectively has 49 Mt with these suckers. This is doing 37-35 damage a shot to cats.

Cat lvl 14

HP 41, Atk 22, AS 20, Hit 136, Avo 46, DEF 12, RES 10, Crit 10, Ddg 6

Cat lvl 15

HP 42, Atk 27, AS 20, Hit 137, Avo 47, DEF 14, RES 10, Crit 10, Ddg 7

Cat lvl 16

HP 43, Atk 29, AS 22, Hit 141, Avo 51, DEF 14, RES 10, Crit 11, Ddg 7

Cat lvl 17

HP 43, Atk 31, AS 22, Hit 142, Avo 52, DEF 16, RES 10, Crit 11, Ddg 8

To give ya a tase. Bronze knife on the weakest does 11 damage, reducing it to 30. Player phase, he can bitchslap it with beastslayer, no counter taken a thank you very much. Since he's not doubling, he's safe outside of a random crit, and next turn he could kill them with a bronze weapon. Level 15 types, bronze knife does 9 damage, reducing it to 33 HP. Beastslayer does 35. Lvl 16, bronze knife does 9 damage, recuding it to 34, but beastslayer still does 35. Next guy he can't do this with a bronze knife. Bronze DAGGER on the other hand, he does 8 damage, reducing it to 35. Unfortunately a Beastslayer would only do 33. This would not be the case if he kept his auto-A with Michaiah. Zihark does not have this advantage at all, and always has to take a counter along with risking enemy phase critwalling, of which puts him in significant danger. The fact that Sothe can use bronze weapons this effectively, I'd say Sothe has a sheer offensive advantage here on cats, despite the fact Zihark is doubling all of them. As a note, Sothe has 23 speed on average at this level, doesn't pick up till 2 levels later. Defensively?

Well, how funny would it be if I told you they have THE SAME EXACT AVOID BASE, even though Zihark actually started with a +2 on Sothe? However, Sothe is able to have an A with an Earth type, while Zihark getting an A earth is a tad out of place without a weird playstyle, or inefficient playing. This means Zihark's got a 30 avoid with his B, and Sothe's got a 36 with an A. Total avoid is 101 with Sothe (you heard me), and 95 with Zihark. Sothe has the actual dodge advantage here ;;>> He can actualy reduce cats to 30 hit displayed. At neutral. On flat ground. Defensively on a real level though...Sothe's got a 1 Def lead, and a 5 HP lead. Zihark's got a 32 HP and 14 Def, while Sothe's got a 37 HP and 15 Def. Weakest 6RKO Sothe, 4RKO Zihark. Second weakest 4RKO Sothe, 3RKO Zihark. Second strongest 3RKO Sothe and Zihark. THE strongest 3RKO Sothe, 2RKO Zihark. Advantage Sothe on cats.

Tigers? Sure, why not?

Tiger lvl 14

HP 48, Atk 32, AS 16, Hit 132, Avo 38, DEF 18, RES 4, Crit 9, Ddg 6

Tiger lvl 15

HP 48, Atk 39, AS 16, Hit 136, Avo 38, DEF 18, RES 6, Crit 10, Ddg 6

Tiger lvl 16

HP 50-52, Atk 39, AS 16, Hit 137, Avo 39, DEF 20, RES 6, Crit 11, Ddg 7

Tiger lvl 17

HP 51-52, Atk 41, AS 18, Hit 141, Avo 43, DEF 20, RES 6, Crit 11, Ddg 7

Wow, weakest tigers are actually struggling not to enter the 20s displayed with Sothe.

Anyways, weakest 3RKO Sothe, 2RKO Zihark. The rest are equal, nothing they can do about it. Goddamn, these things are strong but at least Sothe is pulling noticeable leads. Offensively? Well, both are doubling these guys, so Sothe's already at an advantage as he has higher Str by a good 4 point margin (Zihark's 18 to Sothe's 22). Sothe might have to pull out an Iron Dagger, but it's still safe because even with double crit he won't kill. Weakest tiger, Sothe with iron dagger (27 Mt) reduces the tiger down to 30 HP. Beastslayer is a 49 Mt attack, doing 31 damage. Clean kill. Other tigers he might have to pull out something stronger before whipping out beastslayer, but I would doubt Zihark is 2RKOing these things in any shape or form outside of crits. On top of that, Zihark's far unsafer regarding crit, due to his greater chances. Zihark's far more unsafe than Sothe here.

Interesting note. Volug when he gets ride of Wildheart ALSO has the same base avoid as these two by then. However due to his move difference, his chance of having a B with another Earth is rather slim but even then, he'd be 6 under Sothe who has an A earth by now. He's outdodging VOLUG. Volug does have serious durability over him (like 12 HP by now, 3 def), but Sothe has his bronzeslayer strat along with ranged weapons to pick off stragglers even over the logs. Dare I say Sothe's actually better than Volug here!? Nah, I'd be crazy to go over a 12 HP and 3 Def lead. I mean even untransformed, some of those tigers aren't doubling him, and even untransformed the strongest cat cannot ORKO him, meaning his transformation issue is not an issue, but rather a leveling strategy. Still, being the second best dude here is fucking awesome.

Also note that because of this maxing of strength early, he can effectively play the "slowpadding" strat with BEXP. Next level maxes skill, so basically for a good while, he's gonna end up getting (most likely in BEXP leveling) Luck (65%, highest), Speed (45%, second highest), and tie in Resistance and HP (30%, Def and Mag though are only 10% off). Basically no matter what he's gonna be boosting at least avoid, speed, or his defensive measures.

Part 4 he slows down, but with that in mind I wouldn't say he sucks...However, that is if my numbers are right. As for if both got to 20/1 between Zihark and Sothe...

Sothe Base Avoid: 87, Zihark's: 81. Sothe with Earth is +36, Zihark's is +45. Leading to Sothe: 123, Zihark: 126

Hehheh, Sothe puts Earth to better use than Zihark. Luck saves the day.

What does this have to do with Titania? Well for part 1, he's the best flat out. Even competing with Volug most of the time they share until the god modders show up. Sothe's got the advantage, and Ti cannot make up for it. Part 3, Sothe is pretty much second best to Volug, even to the point of putting Earth to better use than someone who actually has Earth. Titania for the most part could be considered 2nd best at times, though could also be 3rd or even 4rth at times. Advantage Sothe. Titania probably does beat the shit out of him, but like Ranulf's entire reason for being in upper mid, Sothe is forced regardless. Advantage: Sothe.

This is again only assuming my numbers are right. I'm probably off by quite a bit (and I'm sure Narga would drop bombs all over this little essay), but at least it's groundwork for the argument.

EDIT: Son of a whorefuck, I got ninja'd to hell and back...

Edited August 26, 2009 by Robo Ky