OMG it's a tier list

[Ether]

Supporting him with Nolan.

As for hurting more than helping, it only hurts if Nolan can't be usable endgame. Rrrr...Seems Red Fox killed me on this one. Well in exchange, he could just go back to Michaiah. She's forced as well. Losing 11 avoid hurts, but he gains might in exchange. That and Michaiah's supports are always changing, I don't think she'd mind her bitch coming back to her...

Yeah.nolan doesn`t wanna touch the desert.It has Herpes.Problem is,Sothe breaking his Micky support hurts him more than Micky.Micky can benefit from a lot of things more than wind,and her affinity is desireable.

If Sothe breaks the support,he probably won`t get Micky back.

[grandjackal]

She's not the only one around. He can support anyone else, and with route configuration he's garunteed to support someone.

Like Naesala...

Oh, did anyone notice SothexNolan is an FF 01? As in a fairly fast sucker in comparison to normal?

Edited August 26, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Ether]

She's not the only one around. He can support anyone else, and with route configuration he's garunteed to support someone.

Like Naesala...

yay for tethering Naesala to someone with 3 move in the desert so Sothe can have 5 Avo and 1 Att for endgame!!!

[-Cynthia-]

We have 2 speedwings available at 3-2, just like 2 Adepts and we get the third by 3-11, right when we get the third Adept. The only real difference is that Adept is available for 3-P and 3-1(and we can swap Adept around more freely I guess).

@ Int I agree with what you said, I just don't see how Titania getting an Earth support is significantly more difficult than Mia getting one.

Edited August 26, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

She's not the only one around. He can support anyone else, and with route configuration he's garunteed to support someone.

Like Naesala...

yay for tethering Naesala to someone with 3 move in the desert so Sothe can have 5 Avo and 1 Att for endgame!!!

Because Naesala can't transport at all in a fairly vast and somewhat empty desert, nor would he not appreciate the 1 ATK and 5 avoid he would normally not have for endgame...I mean, why would he transport a thief when there's so much HIDDEN TREASURE around? I mean come on! He's just the best flier you have on the team, and t could net us Dragonfoe, Baselard and a Laguz Gem. I mean come on! Rescuing only speeds up a support significantly, SO unrealistic! It sucks Naesala is a bad rescuer, what with the fact he has canto, enough room for Savior and the ability to counter with Maelstrom. Doing that would be just so stupid! : D

Also, anyone notice NolanxSothe is FF 01, as in a faster than normal support?

Edited August 26, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Ether]

We have 2 speedwings available at 3-2, just like 2 Adepts and we get the third by 3-11, right when we get the third Adept. The only real difference is that Adept is available for 3-P and 3-1(and we can swap Adept around more freely I guess).

And that Adept is only a noticable improvement on several units,while almost anyone can see improvement from a speedwing.

[Ether]

She's not the only one around. He can support anyone else, and with route configuration he's garunteed to support someone.

Like Naesala...

yay for tethering Naesala to someone with 3 move in the desert so Sothe can have 5 Avo and 1 Att for endgame!!!

Because Naesala can't transport at all in a fairly vast and somewhat empty desert, nor would he not appreciate the 1 ATK and 5 avoid he would normally not have for endgame...I mean, why would he transport a thief when there's so much HIDDEN TREASURE around? I mean come on! He's just the best flier you have on the team, and t could net us Dragonfoe, Baselard and a Laguz Gem. I mean come on! Rescuing only speeds up a support significantly, SO unrealistic! It sucks Naesala is a bad rescuer, what with the fact he has canto, enough room for Savior and the ability to counter with Maelstrom. Doing that would be just so stupid! : D

Also, anyone notice NolanxSothe is FF 01, as in a faster than normal support?

I guess SotheXNaesala is plausible,but again,Nolan doesn`t want to go anywhere near the desert,and anyway,he would like Def so he has a better shot of being 3HKO`d by tigers in part 3.

[grandjackal]

I guess SotheXNaesala is plausible,but again,Nolan doesn`t want to go anywhere near the desert,and anyway,he would like Def so he has a better shot of being 3HKO`d by tigers in part 3.

He won't have to with this. Since Sothe would go to Naesala (which is an even sexier coupling...Goddammit, I need to get my mind out of the gutter), Nolan is free to go another route. With how fast the support is an the time they have, this A support would be happening possibly even before Nolan would get a B with Zihark. This isn't just part 3 in mind. Even then, most of part 3, Nolan wouldn't have an A with Zihark anyways. Hee'd have 6 mroe avoid with Sothe than he would normally with Zihark's B.

Also, if it's that much a bother for you, just give him a dracoshield. I mean, if stat boosters are involved in the list, Nolan has every right to it basically.

[-Cynthia-]

And that Adept is only a noticable improvement on several units,while almost anyone can see improvement from a speedwing.

I would disagree. Boyd for example, even though he doesn't double, now has a 20+ % chance to ORKO enemies, which is significantly better than nothing.

Then there are units who reliably double, but still get mileage out of Adept. Shinon, Ranulf, Ulki, Janaff, Nephenee. One of the Adepts is also with the DB, and while Zihark can't use it very effectively in 3-6 or 3-13 due to durability issues, someone like Volug can. Also if Zihark or Jill come over to the GMs Adept would improve their offense there too.

The Speedwing on the other hand, aminly improves Titania and Haar. Ike doubles reliably with slowplaying BEXP anyway, Boyd and Soren are too far from doubling, Gatrie needs to uncap his Spd, a Wing doesn't help him. The only other character I could really see a Wing on is Oscar, unless we want to give Speedwings to losers like Kyza and Lethe that probably won't be in play.

All in all, I'm not seeing a big difference between a Speedwing and Adept as far as resource comsumption goes.

[Ether]

I guess SotheXNaesala is plausible,but again,Nolan doesn`t want to go anywhere near the desert,and anyway,he would like Def so he has a better shot of being 3HKO`d by tigers in part 3.

He won't have to with this. Since Sothe would go to Naesala (which is an even sexier coupling...Goddammit, I need to get my mind out of the gutter), Nolan is free to go another route. With how fast the support is an the time they have, this A support would be happening possibly even before Nolan would get a B with Zihark. This isn't just part 3 in mind. Even then, most of part 3, Nolan wouldn't have an A with Zihark anyways. Hee'd have 6 mroe avoid with Sothe than he would normally with Zihark's B.

Also, if it's that much a bother for you, just give him a dracoshield. I mean, if stat boosters are involved in the list, Nolan has every right to it basically.

I don`t think Nolan wants to rebuild a support in part 4 though.

[Ether]

And that Adept is only a noticable improvement on several units,while almost anyone can see improvement from a speedwing.

I would disagree. Boyd for example, even though he doesn't double, now has a 20+ % chance to ORKO enemies, which is significantly better than nothing.

Then there are units who reliably double, but still get mileage out of Adept. Shinon, Ranulf, Ulki, Janaff, Nephenee. One of the Adepts is also with the DB, and while Zihark can't use it very effectively in 3-6 or 3-13 due to durability issues, someone like Volug can. Also if Zihark or Jill come over to the GMs Adept would improve their offense there too.

The Speedwing on the other hand, aminly improves Titania and Haar. Ike doubles reliably with slowplaying BEXP anyway, Boyd and Soren are too far from doubling, Gatrie needs to uncap his Spd, a Wing doesn't help him. The only other character I could really see a Wing on is Oscar, unless we want to give Speedwings to losers like Kyza and Lethe that probably won't be in play.

All in all, I'm not seeing a big difference between a Speedwing and Adept as far as resource comsumption goes.

But when compared to the difference between what Mia does with it,the opportunity cost for most people isn`t very high.

Boyd can avoid being doubled by SM`s,and doubles sooner that before.

Mist can get doubled by almost nothing sooner.

Rolf`s powerleveling means he can double quite quickly with a speedwing.

Soren sees the same effect as Boyd,but he is less notable due to still having bad durability and needing more levels to double.

Plenty of people make better use of a speedwing than adept,that is why Ti has a greater opportunity cost.

[Interceptor]

@ Int I agree with what you said, I just don't see how Titania getting an Earth support is significantly more difficult than Mia getting one.

It's not the support, it's the person who gives it to her. Titania is not getting Ike, she's getting Oscar. It means we have to deploy him.

From Titania's point of view, this is fine, because she has no trouble staying with him at all and she gets something that she needs. If we end it here, there is no problem. But we can't end it here.

From the army's point of view, this is a guy in Upper Mid. We have to give him kills, train him, etc, and he's not as good at game completion as several other potential candidates. Oscar in particular is having some serious offense issues, since his AS is not quite good enough to double consistently and his mt is hurting even when he does double, made worse by being locked to lances for 1-range. He does not have the advantage of a good crit stat, or being a good candidate for Adept, and his STR complicates the possibility of using Killers.

From Oscar's point of view, this is setup is medicore. He gets durability via avoid no matter who he supports with, but what he really needs is +mt, which Titania is not giving to him. She gives him +DEF, which is better than nothing, but the one of the last things he needs with his SKL/LCK is more HIT. He'd be better off personally with a Boyd, who despite constraining his movements gives him the +MT he needs and easy access to a Bond for extra offensive power.

So my conclusion after looking at all of this is that the TitaniaxOscar setup is serviceable but not ideal for everyone. Oscar has better options than Titania, and the army has better options than Oscar. That is not to say that the support cannot exist, just that those are the costs associated with it.

[-Cynthia-]

But when compared to the difference between what Mia does with it,the opportunity cost for most people isn`t very high.

Ranulf/Neph/a Hawk 3HKO and double, Mia 3HKOs and doubles, they get pretty much the same mileage out of Adept all in all.

Boyd can avoid being doubled by SM`s,and doubles sooner that before.

The first part isn't terribly important, it's only one enemy type. It's like Shinon taking a WIng just to double SMs.

The second part is a little more valid, but we don't see the effects of that Speedwing until much later on. I'd probably give Boyd the 3-9 Speedwing instead, since he won't double until post promotion anyway.

Mist can get doubled by almost nothing sooner.

She won't be much dealing damage and she still gets 2RKOd anyway, the difference isn't terribly noticable. We would still want to keep Mist away from enemies.

Rolf`s powerleveling means he can double quite quickly with a speedwing.

Probably the most valid case here, but Rolf isn't that likely to be in play, and a Wing isn't enough to get him doubling immediately.

Soren sees the same effect as Boyd,but he is less notable due to still having bad durability and needing more levels to double.

You pretty much summed it up yourself. Don't forget Soren's Spd cap isn't very good either.

Edited August 26, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

Why can't Titania get Ike and Mia get Oscar? I think we've established a long time ago that it's not difficult to keep mounted units in support range of infantry units because of canto.

[Interceptor]

Why can't Titania get Ike and Mia get Oscar? I think we've established a long time ago that it's not difficult to keep mounted units in support range of infantry units because of canto.

MiaxOscar has the same problems as TitaniaxOscar, plus some additional ones in that now Mia loses a support if she wants to go to the same places that she used to. You're just borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, here. The original problem still exists.

[Zkirsche]

How about we consider both thier performances with an earth support, or, the same resource?

Edited August 26, 2009 by kirsche

[Interceptor]

How about we consider both thier performances with an earth support, or, the same resource?

The issue that I have with this is the implicit assumption that resource X has the same opportunity cost when given to either unit Y or unit Z. This is manifestly not the case with almost any resource that there is. If you consider the cost, that's fine, but sometimes that's not fair, too. I mean, would you give Adept to Titania? Cancel? Now Titania is getting dinged for no good reason.

[Ether]

How about we consider both thier performances with an earth support, or, the same resource?

That`s what we`ve been doing,but people don`t want Mia to support Ike for whatever reason.

As for Rolf,this could actually raise him.at base with a wing he doubles paladins and sages in 3-2,and he levels very quickly,so soon he could double other things.Add to that his insane strength growth and the fact that everyone knows marksmen are hax endgame.

a speedwing basically makes it so he isn`t a hassle to train,and that`s the only reason he`s so low anyway.

Also,a thought.Oscar would also like a speedwing.in order for Titania`s support to be in play,she has to compete for one of her most wanted resources.just a thought.

[Interceptor]

What does Oscar want with a Speedwing? He caps it naturally, so you get an early-game boost and maybe some chances to force STR up on BEXP'ed levels.

Well, I guess that's a decent reason, but it takes a while to manifest itself unless you pauper the GMs of their BEXP.

[Ether]

What does Oscar want with a Speedwing? He caps it naturally, so you get an early-game boost and maybe some chances to force STR up on BEXP'ed levels.

Well, I guess that's a decent reason, but it takes a while to manifest itself unless you pauper the GMs of their BEXP.

He basically does the same as Ti with a wing.His str isn`t as nukish,but he hits 24 AS pretty quickly,and you could crown him in 3-7 for 26 AS,as well as Str BEXP potential.

[-Cynthia-]

He basically does the same as Ti with a wing.His str isn`t as nukish,but he hits 24 AS pretty quickly,and you could crown him in 3-7 for 26 AS,as well as Str BEXP potential.

The problem with Oscar as opposed to Titania is that promoting him early would nuke his Str even more than promoting naturally. Titania is pretty close to a natural promotion, a crown doesn't hurt her lategame as much and she doesn't need it really, she should hit 20/1 relatively quickly startign at lvl 16.

Anyway, I apologize, Oscar doesn't really need a Speedwing. But then that just leaves Titania's main competition as Rolf, who's fairly unlikely, I could probably bring up some unlikely Adept users as well but I tried to focus on units Upper Mid and above.

Edited August 26, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

I guess SotheXNaesala is plausible,but again,Nolan doesn`t want to go anywhere near the desert,and anyway,he would like Def so he has a better shot of being 3HKO`d by tigers in part 3.

He won't have to with this. Since Sothe would go to Naesala (which is an even sexier coupling...Goddammit, I need to get my mind out of the gutter), Nolan is free to go another route. With how fast the support is an the time they have, this A support would be happening possibly even before Nolan would get a B with Zihark. This isn't just part 3 in mind. Even then, most of part 3, Nolan wouldn't have an A with Zihark anyways. Hee'd have 6 mroe avoid with Sothe than he would normally with Zihark's B.

Also, if it's that much a bother for you, just give him a dracoshield. I mean, if stat boosters are involved in the list, Nolan has every right to it basically.

I don`t think Nolan wants to rebuild a support in part 4 though.

He wouldn't have to. By part 4, he's basically got all around stats. Him going double earth would be a bit redundant at this point. He could basically C with anybody from the DB, meaning he could C with Jill, Zihark, Volug. Zihark and Volug, sure Nolan dips 19 avoid, but when he hits B he's only missing 6. With Jill, at least he gets +1 Def out of the deal, and just a sudden boost of Earth would do WONDERS for her. This on top with being able to go leardership routes, him missing some avoid is not so big a loss, especially since he can so quickly make it up.

C with anybody is in fact bearable. DB maps are defensive, we got people plenty close to eachother.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Ether]

He basically does the same as Ti with a wing.His str isn`t as nukish,but he hits 24 AS pretty quickly,and you could crown him in 3-7 for 26 AS,as well as Str BEXP potential.

The problem with Oscar as opposed to Titania is that promoting him early would nuke his Str even more than promoting naturally. Titania is pretty close to a natural promotion, a crown doesn't hurt her lategame as much and she doesn't need it really, she should hit 20/1 relatively quickly startign at lvl 16.

Anyway, I apologize, Oscar doesn't really need a Speedwing. But then that just leaves Titania's main competition as Rolf, who's fairly unlikely, I could probably bring up some unlikely Adept users as well but I tried to focus on units Upper Mid and above.

You keep saying Ike doesn`t need a speedwing because you can slowplay his speed.You can do the same with Oscar`s str.

Once skill and speed cap,Str is his third highest growth,and he can easily just get close to leveling in the map and get his level with BEXP.So using a speedwing allows him to be better short term,and have the option of crowning without killing his potential.

[Ether]

I guess SotheXNaesala is plausible,but again,Nolan doesn`t want to go anywhere near the desert,and anyway,he would like Def so he has a better shot of being 3HKO`d by tigers in part 3.

He won't have to with this. Since Sothe would go to Naesala (which is an even sexier coupling...Goddammit, I need to get my mind out of the gutter), Nolan is free to go another route. With how fast the support is an the time they have, this A support would be happening possibly even before Nolan would get a B with Zihark. This isn't just part 3 in mind. Even then, most of part 3, Nolan wouldn't have an A with Zihark anyways. Hee'd have 6 mroe avoid with Sothe than he would normally with Zihark's B.

Also, if it's that much a bother for you, just give him a dracoshield. I mean, if stat boosters are involved in the list, Nolan has every right to it basically.

I don`t think Nolan wants to rebuild a support in part 4 though.

He wouldn't have to. By part 4, he's basically got all around stats. Him going double earth would be a bit redundant at this point. He could basically C with anybody from the DB, meaning he could C with Jill, Zihark, Volug. Zihark and Volug, sure Nolan dips 19 avoid, but when he hits B he's only missing 6. With Jill, at least he gets +1 Def out of the deal, and just a sudden boost of Earth would do WONDERS for her. This on top with being able to go leardership routes, him missing some avoid is not so big a loss, especially since he can so quickly make it up.

C with anybody is in fact bearable. DB maps are defensive, we got people plenty close to eachother.

But why not just start with jill from the beginning and have an A by now,as well as giving her a boost in part 3,where she needs it.Nolan supporting Sothe earlygame just isn`t worth it.

[-Cynthia-]

You keep saying Ike doesn`t need a speedwing because you can slowplay his speed.You can do the same with Oscar`s str.

Once skill and speed cap,Str is his third highest growth,and he can easily just get close to leveling in the map and get his level with BEXP.So using a speedwing allows him to be better short term,and have the option of crowning without killing his potential.

Using a Speedwing just so someone can cap Spd earlier for BEXP purposes seems a lot weaker than using a Speedwing to actually double.