OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

I can't see Muarim really advancing any higher than he already is. He's awesome statistically in part 1, but only when transformed, and there are no Laguz Stones and limited Olivi Grass. He only has 3 maps, and none of them are short on other amazing units anyway except maybe 1-7:

1-7: Tormod, Vika, Sothe, Zihark, Volug

1-8: Same + Nailah and Rafiel

1-E: Same + Black Knight

Compare this to Tauroneo, who is only 2 spaces up (Brom is another comparison entirely). Despite the fact that he only has 2 maps (Though 1 full chapter), he'll be much more relied on, since the list of other "amazing" units is limited to Volug, Sothe, and Zihark, and he also need not worry about staying transformed. Then Tauroneo comes back and is pretty good in the DB's part 3 where only Volug of the above list is still there/amazing, and one extra map in part 4 where he can use Paragon or something to jump to tier 3.

And I can't really imagine Tauroneo moving much higher, so...

[grandjackal]

*ahem* Nailah exists in 1-E. By no means are her and he equals, as Nailah is superior. Always.

[Narga_Rocks]

Just because I went to the trouble of finding it, Muarim's durability in 4-4:

(I cut out all the stuff about other units and some of the springboards (quotes from other people))

It isn't like it's a hopeless task to keep those 3 alive. Muarim's durability is actually quite good (50ish hp, 30 def) while Vika can rescue Tormod and canto to safety for the rest of the map.

It's not so much that Muarim's durability is bad, it's just that if you try to treat him like the tank a tiger is supposed to be he'll die.

He has 58 hp and 30 def, yes. But, he's also only got 22 speed and 12 luck and 18 res. He's doubled by almost everything that moves (most generals in this map don't move) and the average warrior does 15 x 2 damage. He's 2RKOd on average by the 45 mt and 46 mt warriors, and 5HKOd (3RKOd) by the 44 mt warrior, and it leaves him with 2 hp after 2 rounds. And they are pulling a 6 or 7 % crit rate on him (HM enemy stat topic does not include the +5 crit skill they get for being kinda reavers but not)

The halbs double for 40 mt on average, so 10 x 2, or a 3RKO. They also pull crit, only theirs is 11 or 12 (again, HM enemy stat topic lacks the +10 crit skill and assumes + 5). So if one crits then another can kill.

Swordmasters have more variance in weapons, but the most plentiful is 37 mt, so 7 x 2. Now, that might not sound so bad, but they are pulling 23 or 24 crit (again, HM enemy stat topic assumes +10 not +20). That's 23 after we take away Muarim's 12 luck. So the 35-12 crit guys are pulling a 5.29% chance of doing 42 damage, a 59.29% chance of doing 14, and 35.42% chance of doing 28 damage. The expected value of this results in 20.44 damage, so basically around the same as a halb.

Snipers throw in around 37 attack and 30-12=18 crit, so expected value should be less than swordmasters.

Oh, keep him away from sages.

So from these guys he's looking at 2 to 3 RKOd. Now, he's got 71 avo (11x2x2+12+15), and might even have a shot at a support with Vika or Tormod if he and the other was deployed in 1-E, so a C tormod should be a cinch if they are both deployed in 1-E (FF 00, so 3 turns adjacent and 1 shove gets a C with two chapter bonuses, and they probably don't get a bonus for 1-7). Even Vika wouldn't be so hard, cause an FF 01 means 4 adjacents and 1 shove does the trick with two chapter bonuses. Still, a C support adds 1 defence onto his stats but he's still looking at being 3 or 4 RKOd. He can pull 76 avo with C Vika, but enemy hit rates will be pretty good still so it doesn't help too much.

Now, I am not saying he's bad durability wise. 3 to 4 RKO if you don't get critted by ~10% crit rates means aside from warriors it is generally safe enough to let him get attacked by one enemy. Even warriors are only pulling 7% crit, but considering that's worse than Aran in 1-4 by a lot I probably shouldn't ignore it. Still, keep him away from warriors and with a support it takes 2 crits at 41 mt to kill him, so that's only 2 halbs and 1 Swordmaster out of all those enemies that can ORKO him. So as I said, as long as you are reasonably careful he isn't going to die on us. I just don't want anyone getting the idea he's a tank. Putting him up against 2 enemies without healing in between puts him at a significant risk of death. There are areas in the map where he has a low chance of death from 2 enemies, and some areas where he has no chance of death from 2 enemies. Although the sad thing is even generals pull 2 to 3 % chance of killing him. Still, saving one ashera icon out of 4 doesn't seem too costly if you really want and would protect from many of the generals being able to crit him.

Oh, if you think the DB can sacrifice the 3000 they'd get from selling fortune, he seems like a great candidate for it for this one chapter. Leaves him with just 10 capacity left, but so worth it. Really cuts down on damage from snipers and swordmasters, and keeps Warriors at 3RKO or more if Muarim has his C support, except for the 2 46 mt warriors, anyway. And it keeps all but 2 halbs at 4RKO or more. Swordmasters with 37 mt drop to 6x2 damage, or a 5RKO, and ditto 37 mt snipers. Again, with his support active.

Wow, that was probably longer than it needed to be. Oh well. In short, don't use Muarim as a tank without fortune. Possibly a speedwing will be needed as well, so the 3-9 speedwing is warming the inventory for 3-11, 3-E, and 4-1. Not too bad, if you want to take Muarim to 4-E, anyway.

Note: A speedwing turns the 46 mt warriors into 4RKOs, and the 41 mt halbs into 6RKOs. So fortune + speedwing turns him into a real live tank.

But speedwing + fortune in 4-4 seems like a fair amount of favouritism to make him able to safely encounter more than 1 enemy. Though at least fortune could be used in part 3 to protect one unit in each chapter from crits. But since so many people assume selling it in 1-4 for forging I don't think we can assume he'll get it.

I covered the non-warriors. Rather extensively, really. 10x2 for most halbs without supports, 3RKOing. 7x2 for a lot of sm and snipers, averaging 20 over timem for the swordmasters based on crit and less for snipers. I don't feel like calculating so I'll say 17. Still, either one is a 3 or 4 RKO on average. Get a little screwed with crits, and two enemies can knock Muarim from full hp to 0. Mages is bad, too, considering a speedwing won't prevent doubling (they never doubled in the first place so it won't reduce damage) and so many are 3RKOing and a few are 4RKOing. The arcfire ones might 2RKO, but I think it is just barely a 3RKO. Plus they all have significant crit rates, too.

Oh, and try giving Muarim resolve. He'll go from getting doubled to doubling, and he'll also reach there fast due to the damage he receives from being doubled.

Didn't think of that. Solves his being doubled problem and should let him double non-swordmasters, and with 46 mt most enemies end up rather close to death. Trouble is he still gets critblicked. Of course, it takes a rather specific "get hit by warrior, resolve doesn't activate, get critblicked" for him to be ORKOd by them, and only the 46 mt ones can do it to him. Still a 7% x hitrate chance of getting killed. Oh, and snipers are still an issue thanks to Muarim's lack of range. Resolve is stupid in this game so if he starts at say 36 hp against a 37 mt sniper and gets critted he drops to 18 with his support active. Resolve doesn't prevent doubling because Muarim never attacks back. Resolve activates once the second attack is already initiated, so while his avo goes up by 22 / 2 x 2 = 22 he's still facing the second attack. Another crit does him it. It significantly reduces his chance to die, but not by as much as speedwing + fortune would.

Basically, resolve likely makes it safe to be attacked by most combinations of 2 enemies out there, but not all combinations of 2 enemies, and danger is increased as enemies are increased prior to full healing. Fortune + speedwing means the strongest stuff out there 4HKOs him (even without a support), and with most enemy combinations he can take 4 attacks without even the slightest chance of death, and some combinations even 5 attacks won't kill him. And snipers go from 4RKO (based of expected value of damage if everything hits) on average to 9HKO. (37 mt, 3 x 37.5 mt, 39.5 mt, 37.8 on average, call it 38 - (30 + 1) = 7 damage)

Basically, snipers become a joke to him, aside from losing transform gauge.

So, yeah, it's all in there. His best bet is Fortune + speedwing, since then you don't even have to worry anymore (as long as you heal him frequently enough). Well, aside from gauge issues.

[Interceptor]

So much for that adventure, then. Sitting on a Speedwing that long, and doing so little with it, is not doing the guy any favors.

[Reikken]

Yo, FireFox...

I've asked this before, but since there have been about 7 months, nearly 3000 posts, and lots of relevant outside discussion, I think it's worth asking again. Before I join in, or if I join in at all, what are the goals for this list?

Ok, if efficiency, then ...what exactly? I'm not really sure how to word the question, so... Is it like we are assuming playing just about as efficiently as we possibly can, and gauge characters based on how much they contribute to that, or characters are ranked based on how well they would do were they to be used as a primary team member, or...? And if more in line with that second example thing, then is the rest of the team made up of characters that we would use in order to be playing just about as efficiently as we possibly can, or do other characters see use, too, and if so, how often? etc

[Florete]

Yo, FireFox...

I've asked this before, but since there have been about 7 months, nearly 3000 posts, and lots of relevant outside discussion, I think it's worth asking again. Before I join in, or if I join in at all, what are the goals for this list?

Ok, if efficiency, then ...what exactly? I'm not really sure how to word the question, so... Is it like we are assuming playing just about as efficiently as we possibly can, and gauge characters based on how much they contribute to that, or characters are ranked based on how well they would do were they to be used as a primary team member, or...? And if more in line with that second example thing, then is the rest of the team made up of characters that we would use in order to be playing just about as efficiently as we possibly can, or do other characters see use, too, and if so, how often? etc

I had a whole thing written up and then I accidentally clicked outside the box and hit Backspace. Fuck my life.

Is it like we are assuming playing just about as efficiently as we possibly can, and gauge characters based on how much they contribute to that, or characters are ranked based on how well they would do were they to be used as a primary team member, or...?

Kind of a combination of these two. Such as, for a character like Tormod, we'd look at his part 4 performance but put little to no weight to it, so his ranking would be 96% part 1.

Opportunity costs for stat boosters and supports and etc are fairly significant (That's how Mia got to be #6). Max BEXP is not always assumed (This is mainly for part 1), though being a part of getting it is still significant depending on the situation.

It's hard to have a clear definition of "efficiency" for ranking the characters in a game like this. Basically, we try to gauge how the characters contribute to efficient play when used, and what costs and bonuses come with using them (Like affinities and 4-E deployment slots and utilities like healing). I hope that makes sense.

[Narga_Rocks]

So much for that adventure, then. Sitting on a Speedwing that long, and doing so little with it, is not doing the guy any favors.

I think what really kills him is that Fortune is 20 capacity. If not for shove, or if Fortune was 15, he could nab Fortune and Resolve and rock the place. Well, that and the fact that 46 mt only ORKOs one sniper and the sages he kinda fears anyway (and the bishops). Oh, 47mt with C Tormod, so add 1 halb and 1 warrior and the rest of the snipers. (of the starting enemies)

Transformed Muarim with C Tormod (FF 00) He could, in theory, spend 7 turns adjacent to Tormod combined between 1-7 and 1-8, then 7 more turns in 1-E alone to achieve B for 4-4, but the 1-E part is a fair amount of work. And either one could be 6 adjacent and 1 shove, but then Muarim loses a turn. Worth it in 1-8, since the strategy to kill the draco is to shove Tormod with Muarim anyway, but might not be justifiable in 1-E. So I say C.

58hp, 36+1str, 6mag, 28skl, 22spd, 12lck, 30+1def, 18+1res.

28x2+12+15+3 = 86 base hit. 176 hit with fang (10mt, 90hit).

22x2+12+15+3 = 74 base avo.

Transformed Muarim with C Vika (FF 01) Needs 9 adjacents in the same ways Tormod needs 7. Or 8 adjacents and 1 shove in the same way he needs 6 and 1.

58hp, 36str, 6mag, 28skl, 22spd, 12lck, 30+1def, 18+1res.

28x2+12+15+3 = 86 base hit. 176 hit with fang (10mt, 90hit).

22x2+12+15+5 = 76 base avo.

At equal bios he has 100% hit against a fair number of enemies. Still, bio drops him to 171, but even then his worst listed is 83 to a swordmaster, which is 94.39% hit. He isn't exactly experiencing Pelleas level hit issues. Okay, that's an understatement. A big one.

With just Fortune, he's now reliable with what he does, it's just that what he does is get 2RKOd by 2 warriors (3RKOd by others) and some generals and 4RKOd by halbs and 5RKOd by most swordmasters (3 by some) and 5RKOd by snipers (3RKOd by the steel longbow user with height advanatage, 4RKOd without and the others with). Also, there's some generals that only cause 7 damage to Muarim (9HKO) if he has C Tormod/Vika, but a lot have the mt to 5HKO, and some 4HKO. Since some of them double...

Anyway, he's looking at 3RKOd at worst by most of the map, and 2RKOd by a small number of enemies. A fair amount of the map 4 or 5 RKOs him.

Well, that's the physical enemies, anyway. Now for the sages. There's only 7, and one reinforcement, so 8 total, but ugh.

Lowest mt: Thunder sage, 35 atk. Does 16 damage to Muarim with support active for a clean 4HKO.

Highest non-fire mt: Wind sage, 39 atk. Does 20 damage to Muarim with support active for a 3HKO.

Fire sage (1 of him at the start, 1 as a reinforcement on turn 6): 37+18=55mt. 2HKOs Muarim, even with his support. At 71% listed hit with Vika support. 83.47% true. Eek.

But he's got 47 mt with C Tormod and does >=50% damage to 1 halb, 1 warrior, all snipers, all swordmasters, all sages, and <50% to the rest of the halbs and warriors and <40% to all generals. I guess fortune makes him usable, but only for finishing kills and not for tanking, since he doesn't do great damage and you generally have to be careful with those 2 and 3 RKOs going on all over the place. As for the wing all it does is prevent doubling from non-swordmasters, since 26 speed means 30 speed is required. Since it doesn't cause doubling or anything, I don't see how it's worth holding onto for 3 chapters for him. (3-11, 3-E, 4-P/1/2) It doubles the RKOs from everything doubling that isn't a swordmaster, but it's not helping with those sages.

That's fortune, so less forging in 1-4 but probably manageable, and units throughout the game have some issues with low luck causing critblicking so if a unit can go without skills it could benefit more than just Muarim. Haar for example can use Fortune more reliably than Nullify. Since thunder sages still 3HKO Haar even with nullify, being critable means they can instablick him. With fortune, they 2HKO, sure, but now they can't instablick.

Daunt he can use with Resolve, or someone else can be using daunt and stay near him, but he still faces 1% or 2% crit from warriors, 6% or 7% from Halbs, 12% or 13% from snipers, 18% or 19% from most swordmasters (23% from the tempest blade dude). So yeah, daunt alone isn't perfect, but at least Generals can't blick him now.

Thing is, there are swordmasters in the other chapters, and units that can get to be immune to crits in those other chapters, as well. Like the swordmasters in 4-2 and Elincia, or various other units in various other situations. Giving him daunt to make him immune to generals' crits and reduce the rest seems funky. Still, Mia with some bexp during part 3 might reach immunity from Snipers with daunt, others could reach immunity from other units in 4-4. It's not like it's just for him.

So, how do I do this? Hmm...Well, he still fears death in one round, but considering the only way that is happening now is 2 warriors that have the 46 mt to 4HKO and double. At full hitpoints, the first hit means 43 hp remaining and the second will kill on a crit. That's like 2%. At 140 hit, so 64% listed if he has C Vika, and 66% listed with C Tormod. 74.44% or 77.22%. 1.108% chance of death for the Vika support, and 1.19% chance of death for the Tormod support.

So keep him away is the simple solution.

Anyway, he's almost as bad as my other post in terms of before resolve kicks in, except now there's daunt.

Afterwards, nothing doubles, but still can crit. If he's taken damage to knock him into resolve range, 29 hp and 31 def and 19 res means those fire sages still OHKO him, the rest 2HKO. There's still generals that 2HKO him. Swordmasters can still cause a fair amount of damage. Silver blade and tempest blade guy can OHKO him. Chance to hit x chance to crit. 140 for the tempest blade and 147 for the silver blade. Add 22 to his avo. 96 with Tormod, 98 with Vika.

44% with the tempest and 51% with the blade (C Tormod, for the extra ORKOs). 39.16% true and 52.47% true. 23% crit with the tempest, 19% crit for the other. So chance of death: 9.0068% and 9.9693% with the other.

As for the rest, well, if he's trying to employ resolve on enemy phase to cause massive damage and let just about anyone KO, he's likely taking on two or three, possibly four. Especially if we try to boost his strike level as quickly as possible. 52 mt takes out all warriors and halbs, even 51mt does that, and causes >=80% damage to the generals. Well, except one guy that has 51hp and 32 def. Swordmasters receive <80% damage, but oh well, they have low enough def that others can finish the job.

Also, since range means there is no counter on which to activate resolve, the tempest blade guy can actually double if he attacks when Muarim starts at >=30 hp. Even if the first hit takes him down to resolve range, it doesn't activate until the attack is initiated. Also, any unit that has crit and causes at least 10 damage could potentially kill Muarim before he even gets a chance to resolve, increasing his chance of death. Further, it means they could attack when Muarim has >40 hp and the first hit could drop him to 30 hp or so and the second crits.

There's just too many ways for Muarim to die without having Fortune, and he does too little damage when he doesn't double to be helpful on enemy phase, not if we want to finish 4-4 in <= 10 turns. Also not doubling further hurts him since it'll take longer to build strike. Then there is his gauge and grassing and stuff.

If this was any other chapter, I'd say fortune Muarim is doing fine, since he'd be like Haar without flight and before the speedwing and his slow growth kicks in for doubling, and before the crowning in 3-8. Except this is 4-4. As such, Resolve Muarim I suppose could be helpful on player phase, since he can reach out and cream something. Still, he's looking at 7 attacks without Rafiel help and no stones. 7 attacks with 1 stone anyway, 8 attacks with two stone uses. 14 to 16 wexp likely won't pull S for 4-E-1. He's not likely to have entered 45 to 50 combats in 3 chapters in part 1 with no grass in 1-7 and just one grass and few enemies in 1-8 (and 1-7). Another grass for 1-E, though.

So resolve Muarim can be useful here, since he'll cause a fair amount of damage, and as long as he has full hp and doesn't attack one of those two warriors he won't have a 1.19 chance of death. Trouble here is that if he's at full hp, he isn't doubling. So he's building less strike, and is only killing things that have been sufficiently weakened. To walk around with 29 hp or less means what he can attack is rather limited. So he's back to trying to tank on enemy phase but only allowing a small number of enemies to attack and highly dependent on what we see near him. And since we'd likely have to start him at full hp he isn't doubling the first enemy or two that attacks. Starting at resolve levels of hp means only allowing 1 to 3 enemies attack him, depending on what they are and whether or not any of them have the mt to OHKO with a crit.

It's..not good. Does he have enough utility to make a case for using here extensively and bringing to endgame? Well, considering the difficulties of raising strike level and how much he might slow us down anyway, and the risks involved in letting him "tank", I'd have to say he's better off clinging to the utility he gets in part 1.

[Florete]

Transformed Muarim with C Tormod (FF 00) He could, in theory, spend 7 turns adjacent to Tormod combined between 1-7 and 1-8, then 7 more turns in 1-E alone to achieve B for 4-4, but the 1-E part is a fair amount of work. And either one could be 6 adjacent and 1 shove, but then Muarim loses a turn. Worth it in 1-8, since the strategy to kill the draco is to shove Tormod with Muarim anyway, but might not be justifiable in 1-E. So I say C.

Is there a point? It's FirexThunder, so B would only grant +3 Hit and avoid, and I doubt that's significant. And I'm pretty sure Tormod isn't headed to Endgame, so it's not hitting A.

[Narga_Rocks]

Transformed Muarim with C Tormod (FF 00) He could, in theory, spend 7 turns adjacent to Tormod combined between 1-7 and 1-8, then 7 more turns in 1-E alone to achieve B for 4-4, but the 1-E part is a fair amount of work. And either one could be 6 adjacent and 1 shove, but then Muarim loses a turn. Worth it in 1-8, since the strategy to kill the draco is to shove Tormod with Muarim anyway, but might not be justifiable in 1-E. So I say C.

Is there a point? It's FirexThunder, so B would only grant +3 Hit and avoid, and I doubt that's significant. And I'm pretty sure Tormod isn't headed to Endgame, so it's not hitting A.

There isn't much point, no. There's like, almost no point. I don't think the extra 2 hit and 2 avoid will help Muarim any, aside from very slightly reducing his chance to die. Except it's the same chance to die as he had with Vika anyway, so it's just getting a slightly lower chance to die than C Tormod and keeping the +mt.

So it may not have been worth mentioning, and since it's hard to do anyway I never even used it in the calculations, but I just didn't want to leave it out. Though maybe I should have, because the reward from the extra work in 1-E is so small that the price is significantly higher. But doing the work in 1-7 and 1-8 could be worth it for the extra +mt for Tormod in 1-E, but that has nothing to do with Muarim in 4-4.

And sending Tormod to endgame would be silly, yes.

[Ether]

Well,he could use BEXP to help him a bit.He BEXP levels like a 20/9 at base,and his highest growths are Hp,Str,and luck.

[grandjackal]

Hmmm...For some reason, I see Eddie moving upwards. No idea why...Anyone else getting this feeling? Really, I thin it'll do with his defense boosting support...Lemme look into numbers I guess.

I will be editing this post, as I bring in more.

Well first off, he's simply the best guy on 1-P. With the draco, he could pretty much solo this map, but it comes a tad late.

1-1, Nolan shows up and is competition for the dracoshield. Mighty tough competition no less. However, it can be shown that Eddie's got a better start than Aran, who is the only other competition for it. Eddie in a way could use the shield better, and Nolan has been shown he can be perfectly fine with a Seraph robe.

However, there is one thing the shield allows Eddie to do here. Take 3 shots from the boss even at base. Nolan could be fortunate, but the problem is he'd have a hard time hitting this guy. On top of it, wielding steel and he risks being doubled. However more safely I can nab the steel sword, the better. It only helps Eddie's durability against things like archers and weak soldiers, but if he got an HP level he can take 3 of most of the axers as well. Second best either way.

1-2, it's kind of weird. He can climb up the ledge to fight the fighter there. However, it's sort of a tragedy. He's actually failing to double things evne with iron, unless we got him 4 levels in that time. At best, I could see him level 7. Given the draco, how does he hold up? Well he's got 21 HP and 8 Def. Well, only the iron axer can one round him. Otherwise, his numbers are looking pretty nifty. Thing is, Nolan's not out of the woods yet himself. See, he can't wield the steel axe without getting doubled by a grand total of 6 enemies, of which there are 15 enemies. It's weird with him, as it means that even with a draco there are still a few enemies that can 2RKO Nolan, wile Eddie it's just 1 enemy type, the iron axers. On top of that, the myrmidon can double Nolan no matter what, and is pulling quite sizeable crit. In fact, 2 crits and Nolan's dead. So while I'm sure Nolan's dishing out damage a lot harder than Eddie is (though 1 level, Eddie puts the hurting on quite a few more enemy types), Eddie's durability is surprisingly...Less flimsy, given he gets the draco. I'd still give the win to Nolan though, as he doesn't need the draco to pull this off, but at least Eddie can get results. Sothe shows up, is god, yadda yadda.

1-3, the prison chapter. Nolan's gotta be even more careful with what he wields, as still he could get devestated if he wields the steel axe. Even with an Str or Speed level, there is a myrm with a steel sword who can double him if he dares equip it. Deadly steel, crit rate on him, this guy is quite dangerous to Nolan. With the draco, he just...baaaarely edges out being 2RKOd, but he's still got crit on the bearded one. Given a draco and that he's level 8 now, Eddie can actually quite cleanly avoid being 2RKOd by this bastard. Severely less crit chance on him too (only 1 displayed). Might say this is a minor advantage for Edward, but the thing is that there's not just 1 of these bastards, 3 litter the map. On top of this though, Eddie can actually double some bastards on this map. One level, he can do so with steel. However, there are only like 6 guys on the map that Eddie can avoid being 2RKOd, while Nolan could do fine on his own. He's STILL gotta be careful with the steel axe though, as there are now 16 enemies that can double Nolan dare he equip it and get caught with his pants down.

So now we get to 1-4, the turning point for most of the brigade. Eddie could be level 9 or 10 possibly, Nolan probably is level 11. Basically the whole group could support eachother, or should be able to, so it's pretty much a "who benefits best?"

Eddie no matter who he Cs with will get what he needs, 1 Def. At level 10 with draco, he has 9 Def+1 from his support, and 24 HP. Yup, this point Aran only beats him by 1 def. Eddie on the other hand has him beat in every other area you could imagine. Luck, Speed, Avoid, Accuracy...Basically he's about as tough as Aran, though gets doubled less and no fear of being crit-blicked. Nolan doesn't have to deal with being weighed down, as now forging is available, along with iron axes if you aren't into that. Either way, Nolan's problems you could say are fixed.

Nolan is still getting 2RKOd by tigers like Eddie would either way, however the draco could edge him out in the weaker ones. However at level 11, he's gotta be careful with his weapon choice with the stronger ones as he's weighed down enough to get doubled by them, and they'd slaughter him no matter what. Eddie though can double the non-strongest. A single level, he can double any tiger. It's unsafe due to myrm crit, but with Iron at his level, even a double crit wouldn't ORKO these things. He's actually quite a bit safer than you think. One more Str though and he would. This means he'd prefer someone who didn't boost offense as a support (so much for Leo...). Aran can't support, Sothe's got a juicy auto-A that makes him perform like Volug on steroids. This oddly enough leaves only Nolan. Nolan would love the acc, both would love the def boost, both would love the avoid. As much as the support wouldn't hep much defensively (aside form making Nolan a bit more uber, and it is so without a draco), btu it could help later with which the speed of the support builds.

As for cats? Well Nolan can be doubled regardless of weapon choice if you didn't manage to land 11 speed. They'd 2RKO him. Eddie on the other hand can naturally take 3 shots of them at that level. Offensively, Nolan couldn't 2RKO them even with steel. Both pretty much 3RKO with steel. Eddie with shield could take a cat round and a round from a weaker tiger. Nolan due to them having a good chance of doubling might not be so lucky. So in actuality, at times Eddie can actually afford to crit kill!

1-5. Let's say both got 2 levels from there. They are laguz after all. Nolan's level 13, Eddie's 12. I think they could B here possibly, but let's keep with the C for now.

To give stats.

Eddie-12

HP: 25.8, Str: 11.8, Skill: 16.2, Speed: 16.8, Luck: 12, Def: 7.8+2draco+1support, Res: 1.6+1

44+7avoid, 44+3 base hit, 8+5Myrm crit

Nolan-1

HP: 31.4, Str: 13.8, Skill: 13.8, Speed: 12.4, Luck: 9.4, Def: 10.4+1, Res: 4.6+1

33+7 avoid, 35+3 base hit, 6 crit

Even without the draco, Eddie's catching up defensively. Without a support, they'd be tied. Hell, Eddie'd have more avoid naturally than Nolan would even with a support. Offensively, there are quite a few things Eddie can double that Nolan couldn't, as the speed gap is almost 4 speed. Eddie's even got more crit. Even considering Nolan gets the shield and Eddie doesn't. Eddie's got Leo to get defense from, along with an Str boost. Considering Aran and Laura still aren't open, and that Sothe doesn't want to change his support any other reason, it stands that Nolan want's Eddie the most. Besides, there is something that Nolan is beating him in, defensively. Eddie's gonna have more avoid plain and simple, but naturally, Nolan's beating him in 3 Def and 6 HP. Eddie can reduce the def gap to two by a support with generally anyone. O top of that, Eddie's got 3 more luck to avoid times of insta-blick. On top of that in fairness I could give Nolan a seraph robe for +7 HP. Now I got a Nolan and a Super Nolan.

Eddie loses to mages plain and simple. 1 More Str though, and at least Eddie can ORKO them with a wing edge. Nolan's speed gets in the way of this problem.

Eddie doubles all fighters. 2RKOs cleanly even with iron. Nolan specifically needs a steel axe, though he's not getting doubled now at least. 2RKO Eddie, can't with Nolan. However...Eddie has actual avoid on them, and with the Nolan support reduces them to 50's and even 40's at neutral bio. Granted he's dependent on Nolan for this, but he's still running numbers better than Nolan.

Some archers 3RKO both, while others 2RKO Eddie where Nolan would live. Both 2RKO, though Eddie with the crit has the offensive lead here.

Myrms. One of them can double Nolan, period. Even a draco won't save Nolan from a 3RKO. Eddie can actually take 4RKO from the weakest, 3RKO from the rest. Most others would get doubled by these guys, so Eddie's your best bet on 'em. They also pull 3 crit on Nolan, while Eddie yawns.

Some of the soldiers couldn't 2RKO Eddie even without the draco as long as he has a C with anyone. However, the rest would, unfortunately. Yet again though, he's reducing people to 60-40 displayed. He can 2RKO the weakest with iron, though he might need a crit or another level for the other guys. Nolan has a win here really.

Now Zihark joins, chances are Eddie and Nolan can B it up. Let's compare, giving Eddie another level.

Eddie-13

HP: 26.65, Str: 12.4, Skill: 16.85, Speed: 17.4, Luck: 12.5, Def: 8.15+2draco+1support, Res: 1.8+1

46+15 avoid, 44+6 hit, 8+5 crit

Zihark-Base

HP: 30, Str: 17, Skill: 22, Speed: 23, Luck: 11, Def: 13, Res: 11

57 avoid, 55 hit, 11+10 crit

Zihark has a 6 HP, 5 Str, 6 Skill, 6 Speed, technically 2 defense, 9 Res, 5 hit and 8 crit advantage+Adept

Yet, Eddie can actually pull off wins here, as minor as they are. He's actually got a 4 avoid and 1 luck lead. Pathetic indeed, but what did you expect against a prepromote? Eddie's still got impressive leveling speed on him. Eddie could probably gain 4 levels in the time it would take Zihark 1. Let's seal Eddie at 17.

Eddie-17/1-A Nolan

32 HP, 15 Str, 20 Skill, 21 Speed, 14 Luck, Def:10+2+2, Res: 4+1

56+22 avoid, 54+9 hit, 10+10 crit

Zihark doesn't really gain anything in a level. It's mind boggling how much stronger Zihark is, and makes me wonder why they even put Eddie in there in the first place. However, I could put him in at 20/1 considering at 17, I could start slowplaying BEXP on Eddie. I won't stray from averages hwoever.

Eddie-20/1, A Leo

32 HP, 17 Str, 21 Skill, 21 Speed, 16 Luck, 11+2+3 Def, 5+3 Res

58+9 hit, 58 avoid, 10+10 crit

With A Nolan, increase avoid by 22, lower def and res by 1

Even without a shield and an A with anyone, Eddie would hold a defense lead on him. It sucks that Zihark has Earth, but the thing is by part 3, he'd have a B at best with Nolan, while Eddie could have an A. Measuring avoid, Eddie would have 80 avoid, compared to Zihark's 85. 5 avoid lead compared to 1 def and 9 accuracy for Nolan and he? Even considering a couple levels, the avoid lead would still be minor, and Zihark will not have grown Str regardless.

Unless Zihark got a speed level, he's not doubling cats. Not that he wants to anyways, as to not endanger himself. Even with just a C, Eddie naturally (as in without draco) can withstand 4 cat shots of 22 ATK. So can Zihark though. 27 ATK cats? C, Eddie can take 3. So can Zihark. 29 ATK? Well they can straight up 2RKO Zihark. However, with an A with a defensive support (like Leo), Eddie can take an extra shot where Zihark cannot. Again, not even considering shield here. While Eddie can do it with a support, Zihark specifically would need the shield, as him getting 2 defense from a support is highly unlikely due to the problem of getting an A in time. 31 ATK? Well Eddie would need the shield and Leo to avoid being 2RKOd, but Zihark can't do dick to avoid it. Offensively they're similar. I'd give the win to Eddie here actually.

Tigers? Both are screwed in the sense that they can't avoid being 2RKOd. Offensively again, both are teh same. However, Eddie's light could let Nolan take another shot naturally from the weakest tigers. If Nolan's 20/2, Eddie with his +2 Def can help Nolan with Tarvos in hand survive another shot from all tigers save the strongest, of which Nolan would need to be 20/5 to do. Still, Eddie is helping Nolan's durability directly, while Zihark at this time would only be giving him 8 more avoid. Both suck to tigers, but at least Eddie can help Nolan be a bit tougher, or perhaps even Aran. Hell, he could help Aran be invincible to most cats. A with him after promotion, Aran could take any 22 ATK cat and never get hurt. 27 ATK would only do 3x2(6RKO), 29 ATK would do 5x2 damage (4RKO), and 31 ATK would do 7x2 damage to him (3RKO). Weakest tigers only do 8 damage to him (4RKO), 2 levels and Aran can take 3 41 Mt tigers. Zihark cannot do this.

I'd imagine Zihark wins offensively due to more doubling and avoid since his A would kick in by now for the rest of part 3, but Eddie has solid durability on him anyways. At times, even a couple hawks can pull crit on Zihark.

Part 4? By then I'm sure Eddie's pulling off actual offense, better durability and I'd value his Light more than Earth. I mean pre-endgame, Earth is great. Endgame though, boosting defense directly and boosting ACC for the spirits and such. I'd take Light>Earth there.

OBVIOUSLY I'm not saying he should fly to Zihark's level. However, there are ways to make hm comparable to Nolan, and his Light affinity does give him advantages where Earth might not.

Perhaps I'm just loony. Feel free to tear this apart, as I expect this to be a problem like "Let's just give Nolan the shield", which case we might as well not have a team and try to let Nolan solo everything.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Narga_Rocks]

Well,he could use BEXP to help him a bit.He BEXP levels like a 20/9 at base,and his highest growths are Hp,Str,and luck.

The trouble is just the massive amounts of luck he needs. He's far more likely to pull skl than def, and his highest, like you said, are hp, str, and luck. Luck is actually 3rd and .1 over skl and .2 over def. If he could nab spd, lck, def, he'd be fine in just two bexp levels, and while 2850 + 3000 = 5850 is a little expensive, he could have gotten 20 to 30 exp in part 1 if he entered 20 to 30 combats, so it's possible. 4995 assuming he ended part 1 with 30 cexp.

But going up to 14 luck and 60 hp isn't saving him, and while it's nice he'd now have 51 mt with a Tormod support, and 56 mt after reaching S strike somewhere in 4-E, he's still a little bit of a glass cannon. Now, his cannon is pretty nice, considering he 2HKOs warriors and halbs now, and only 2 of them actually need the Tormod support, the rest die even without it.

Another thing is his bond, +10 with Tormod. At first, this seems great: daunt + Tormod means halbs and warriors can't blick him now, either. It's still only good for player phase, since if there is anything with two range then since Tormod is adjacent to Muarim and we need Muarim to be in a position to get attacked at one range to be useful, then Tormod can get attacked. On player phase, though, at times you could stick Tormod 2 away from an enemy, have Muarim walk up and kill the thing, and assuming your other units are clearing the nearby area then Tormod and Muarim should not get attacked on enemy phase. But Muarim still faces counters unless he attacked a sniper, so at the most he can attack 2 enemies this way and then have to use a vulnerary, since a staff user puts him above resolve range. Throw in his gauge, and unless he uses Rafiel he's looking at maybe 5 attacks during the course of 4-4.

He can get some use out of 4-4, he can even attack something weakened and kill it a few times during the map without any resources, but spending stuff on him just doesn't seem like it gets a big enough payoff, so preparing him for endgame seems impossible.

As for moving him up, Muarim has some big wins in part 1 (Nailah and BK can't be everywhere), but if that wasn't enough to push him above Brom, then being a glass cannon with only 5 uses in 4-4 isn't pushing him above Brom.

[grandjackal]

Also with that essay, I should mention I see hm to be better than someone like Calill. Geoff and Keiran might be trouble as they start utter hax for their chapters, but...;;>> I see Eddie as mid material.

[Narga_Rocks]

Perhaps I'm just loony. Feel free to tear this apart, as I expect this to be a problem like "Let's just give Nolan the shield", which case we might as well not have a team and try to let Nolan solo everything.

Promise I'll look into it later. For now, there are lots of units that could use the shield, but since Edward has benefits just like anyone else, and I'm not seeing anyone using it to epic proportions over what Edward can do with it, I don't have anything against Edward using it. Micaiah can be OHKOd by fewer things, Nolan gets a boost, Jill gets a boost (though she's hurt by how long we'd have to hold onto it, 1-4 robe is more justifiable). I suppose Aran gets a small boost during part 1, but it isn't long term or anything, and we'd still be holding onto it for a bit rather than using it earlier. It's good you did a lot of talk with Edward without the shield, though. As for what credit he should get for what he can do with a shield, well, give him some, but he's not at the level of Gatrie's ownership of the 3-3 crown or anything.

And even if I did want to give Nolan the shield, I think saying we should let Nolan try to solo everything is an exaggeration.

About the supports, if you are using Edward and bringing him to 1-7, 1-8, and 1-E anyway, Nolan x Edward is a fantastic support. And since your post is about Edward, we can field him if we want. C for 1-4 (guaranteed, since Ed and Nolan are force deployed beforehand and I think they start at least one of the three chapters adjacent) and then B for 1-6. Nolan could get 1 def and 10 avo with Aran by now, but not likely to have a B since C activates in 1-5 if you push it or 1-6 if you don't. Leo isn't necessarily looking at long term use since we aren't rating him, and Nolan might appreciate the hit boost over the +mt boost at times anyway, considering hand axes and possible steel axe use to preserve forged iron axe uses, though probably not since it has 50 uses and Nolan doubles nothing throughout part 1. Anyway, it takes 9 adjacents in 1-6 to get to A for 1-7, so that's probably not happening if Edward is being used offensively. So A for 1-8.

Nolan could have C Zihark in 1-8. He gets:

15 avo, that's it.

With A Edward, he gets:

23 avo, 2 def.

So Zihark x Nolan is basically a support that benefits Zihark, that's it. Kinda like Reyson x Elincia for Elincia, only Reyson doesn't really care. Or Elincia x anyone that doesn't give +mt, since +mt is what benefits Elincia most while a lot of the other units need hit boosts for their brave usage from 4-E-3 on. Especially in 4-E-5. (ie: that's a one way support in favour of the unit that isn't Elincia)

Two way supports are definitely good, and Edward x Nolan is that.

Then in part 3 you missed something:

Caladbolg.

Sure, it's not a great sword, but for 3-12 when Zihark still has B Nolan/Volug it means Edward with A Nolan actually has a bigger avo boost.

I wouldn't use it in 3-6 all the time because of the 25 crit Ed pulls with just 20 or 21 skill, but the laguz aren't extremely dodgy and with basically 93 hit on the thing plus 20+ skill and 14+ luck and +8 from supports I don't think Eddie's missing. So any time in which Zihark could pull out a real (not bronze) sword, Ed can grab this thing. 18 str means 33 mt, a brave is just 27 so it only does one more damage on (20 def) tigers anyway. Well, two more thanks to doubling (quadding), I guess. And since Ed may actually survive two cats he might have more opportunities to use a real sword. And it can be traded to a bronze for enemy phase just like anything else and allows the GMs to use a brave sword. Or at least it preserves uses, since you might still want a brave for cats in 3-6 or 3-13, but don't need it for tigers anymore.

It's real use is in 3-12 where Edward has +31 avo from supports + Caladbolg. Zihark x Volug has a realistic chance at A, except "realistic" still means 9 adjacents in 3-6 assuming C in 1-8 and B in 3-6. But Zihark x Nolan needs 12 in the same chapter, and that doesn't seem very likely to me.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

I looked quite well into this for the most part, as I have sort of a soft spot for Eddie, and I don't believe he and Leo should be that close. I don't think he should be that low, I just feel he's severely underrated overall. However, whatever might turn out to be wrong, I just wanna say...

...That post made me feel awesome, Narga. I didn't even think of Caladbolg! Man, you are able to vause great destructive force, yet you have the power to make one feel awesome. you hold a great power, Narga. Keep it secret. Keep it safe.

[Narga_Rocks]

I've been thinking, that dracoshield doesn't go too badly on Edward. Leo should generally not get attacked so if he's OHKOd by a few things that wouldn't OHKO him if he had the draco, oh well. Nolan appears to be at a -2 for letting that draco go to Edward, but really, his +def options are Edward, Aran, and Leo. Jill won't be an A for 3-6 (hard pressed to get a B, really) and Aran could just barely make it. Leo x Nolan could do it, but Leo is as unlikely to be fielded in 1-7 to 1-E as Edward, but Edward is the character being rated. When Edward is fielded, an A Nolan x Edward in 1-8 and 1-E he wouldn't have with Aran means the draco going to Ed rather than Nolan is only a -1 def, not -2. It also means +1 res for Nolan. And if Nolan was stuck with Zihark, well then the draco isn't a loss at all. In some chapters, it's a full -2, and in part 3, it's a -2 if Nolan has an A Aran. But by part 3 Nolan isn't very far away from 3RKOd anyway, so it's no big deal now. It hurts in 1-6, where B Edward is similar to C Aran as far as def goes, although it's still a +5 hit and +5 avo with B Ed over C Aran.

Really, it's not always a full -2.

Ed's competition is still basically Micaiah and Nolan and Aran, although Micaiah only really benefits in 1-5 and 1-9. 1-5 for the ledges, because being 2HKOd with low hit rates when they go up the ledge means she could actually stand on the ledge, whereas it's too big a risk with a 20% hit rate when she's 1HKOd by steel bow archers. Then there's the obvious in 1-9, where being 2HKOd helps, but the 1-8 robe is far better for it.

Also, while Nolan would be more durable with the draco and it would help him out, if we are fielding Edward anyway you can't compare Nolan with +2 def to Nolan with no defence boost, it's more like he only has the extra defence if he'd have supported Aran anyway. And if not, then it's only 2 extra when Edward isn't near Nolan (like 1-4, possibly) and before it would have reached A and there's a -1 loss.

It's not unreasonable to look at Edward with the draco, especially if we are attempting to use him.

[grandjackal]

If that's the case, the only time Zihark has a win on Eddie is basically at join time up to when Eddie hits promotion. Eddie's been winning prior, then Eddie pretty much wins from part 3 onwards it seems. Caladbolg was a damn subtle add in...

But with a shield, he basically becomes Nolan with offense ;;>> While Nolan with the shield just becomes..Nolan with a free defense support.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Zihark can extend his lead over Eddie for at least a short time due to being one of only 3 units who will be able to use Paragon by the time you get it. Sothe and Tauroneo are the other candidates but Tauroneo still gets crap exp growth and Sothe may just get ignored due to weaker part 4 though if you use him, he has also has Paragon possibility going for him.

[grandjackal]

Zihark can extend his lead over Eddie for at least a short time due to being one of only 3 units who will be able to use Paragon by the time you get it. Sothe and Tauroneo are the other candidates but Tauroneo still gets crap exp growth and Sothe may just get ignored due to weaker part 4 though if you use him, he has also has Paragon possibility going for him.

Sothe's far more likely, and even with Paragon, Zihark's not exactly leveling light speed. Even considering, the only difference would probably that he's doubling cats. But seeing as how Zihark is rather dependant on Earth support (it's not like Nolan, Zihark NEEDS Earth), that might just make him even riskier in part 3. Even considering, with the Nolan support, he's got Caladbolg of which he's have the same avoid as Zihark normally would, except Eddie's more durable. You gotta be careful part 3, as overblown offense can easily be what gets you killed. Eddie's a perfect blend and very flexible, while Zihark personally needs an Earth support.

Once he promotes no less, he's got just as much access to it as Zihark. Eddie has all around better growths.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Colonel M]

Doesn't Micaiah have enough capacity to use Paragon? Could've sworn I got it on her...

[grandjackal]

Doesn't Micaiah have enough capacity to use Paragon? Could've sworn I got it on her...

Sure you aren't thinking of Discipline? Ya know, for them...High level light spells???

Unless light mage class has a special extra capacity deal thing going...

Edited August 29, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Colonel M]

I'm right. Light Mage has 20 Capacity, and IIRC Sacrifice doesn't cost any Skill capacity. Unless I'm wrong...

[grandjackal]

*cough* Shove *cough*

Unless you literally just did this...;;>> I still wouldn't see much point in giving it to her though. She'd grow from hard hitting though still paper thin durability mage to hard hitting though still paper thin durability mage.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Colonel M]

Light Mage has 20 capacity. Shove takes 5 and her personal Skill takes none. She'd have room for it.

[grandjackal]

I thought Paragon was 20 capacity...