OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

Why do I seem to recall that you can sell neither Master Seals nor Master Crowns?

EDIT: Wait, I misread something. Disregard that statement.

Okay. But with you saying that, I want to say: Stupid game.

It's not so major on HM, because I tend to use all 4 master seals even though 2 are usually at level 20. And I use all the crowns. But on NM, and EM especially, I wish I could just sell the things (at least the seals). When it typically takes like 3 kills to go from level 20 to 20/1 in any given chapter (more kills on NM, though), and I have no real need of early promotions, I wish I could just sell the things and make more/better forges. Of course, I suppose on EM I don't even need epic forges, but whatever. And early crown on Soren could be worth doing.

Also, since we can buy two for 10000, why can't I sell one? Speaking of:

Mist's Florete. You can buy one, but you can sell neither.

Also, Ike's Ettards, even though we can't buy them. I'd love to sell most of the second one. A steel blade is ludicrously cheap when purchased in 3-2, and aside from 10 lower hit and 10 less crit it's quite similar to Ettard. So I go through around 50 uses on HM, and like 10 on EM. Even if it only sold for 2000 then I'd get over 1800 for selling it when it's no longer helpful. I suppose the DB special weapons in 3-6 also apply when one or more of the units aren't in use. Or if Caladbolg has remaining uses once silver forges are accessible.

[grandjackal]

Perhaps it was missed...

Eddie at level 11 (yes, only level 11) promotes and has 12 Str. Max Iron is 11 Mt. This is 23 mt. Leo support, this is 24 Mt. He also has 17 AS.

Chapter 1-5:

1x Fire Mage lvl 10 (Fire, droppable Vulnerary)

HP 21, Atk 15, AS 10, Hit 115, Avo 27, DEF 5, RES 9, Crit 4, Ddg 7

1x Fire Mage lvl 11 (Fire)

HP 22, Atk 15, AS 11, Hit 115, Avo 29, DEF 5, RES 10, Crit 4, Ddg 7

2x fire Mage lvl 12 (Fire)

HP 22, Atk 16, AS 11, Hit 117, Avo 29, DEF 5, RES 10, Crit 5, Ddg 7

4x Fighter lvl 11 (Steel Axe)

HP 30, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 104, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 5, Ddg 7

1x Fighter lvl 11 (Iron Axe)

HP 30, Atk 23, AS 12, Hit 109, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 5, Ddg 7

1x Fighter lvl 11 (Hand Axe)

HP 30, Atk 24, AS 12, Hit 99, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 5, Ddg 7

1x Fighter lvl 12 (Steel Axe)

HP 31, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 106, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Archer lvl 10 (Iron Bow)

HP 24, Atk 20, AS 12, Hit 120, Avo 31, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 7, Ddg 7

1x Archer lvl 11 (Steel Bow)

HP 24, Atk 24, AS 13, Hit 116, Avo 34, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 7, Ddg 8

1x Myrmidon lvl 10 (Steel Sword)

HP 23, Atk 18, AS 13, Hit 120, Avo 33, DEF 7, RES 3, Crit 12, Ddg 7

1x Myrmidon lvl 11 (Steel Sword)

HP 24, Atk 19, AS 15, Hit 120, Avo 37, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 12, Ddg 7

1x Myrmidon lvl 12 (Steel Sword)

HP 25, Atk 19, AS 15, Hit 122, Avo 37, DEF 8, RES 4, Crit 12, Ddg 7

4x Soldier lvl 11 (Steel Lance, one has stealable vulnerary)

HP 27, Atk 23, AS 13, Hit 111, Avo 33, DEF 10, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

2x Soldier lvl 12 (Javelin)

HP 28, Atk 20, AS 13, Hit 98, Avo 33, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Soldier lvl 13 (Javelin)

HP 28, Atk 20, AS 13, Hit 98, Avo 33, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Soldier lvl 13 (Steel Lance, stealable Master Seal)

HP 28, Atk 24, AS 13, Hit 114, Avo 34, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 8

1x Priest (Heal, stealable Vulnerary)

HP 21, Atk --, AS 9, Hit --, Avo 31, DEF 5, RES 13, Crit -- Ddg 13

1x Wystan lvl 14 (Fire Mage boss, Elfire, stealable Shine Barrier)

HP 25, Atk 21, AS 12, Hit 115, Avo 32, DEF 5, RES 12, Crit 5, Ddg 8

Reinforcements:

2x Fire Mage lvl 12 (Fire, Turn 1, southeast)

HP 22, Atk 15, AS 11, Hit 117, Avo 29, DEF 5, RES 11, Crit 5, Ddg 7

1x Soldier lvl 13 (Steel Lance, Turn 1, east)

HP 28, Atk 24, AS 13, Hit 114, Avo 34, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 8

1x Fighter lvl 13 (Steel Axe, Turn 1, east)

HP 31, Atk 27, AS 13, Hit 106, Avo 33, DEF 9, RES 3, Crit 6, Ddg 7

2x Soldier lvl 11 (Steel Lance, Turn 2, northwest)

HP 27, Atk 23, AS 13, Hit 111, Avo 33, DEF 10, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

2x Myrmidon lvl 12 (Steel Sword, Turn 3, southwest)

HP 25, Atk 19, AS 15, Hit 122, Avo 37, DEF 8, RES 4, Crit 12, Ddg 7

1x Soldier lvl 11 (Steel Lance, Turn 3, southeast)

HP 27, Atk 23, AS 13, Hit 111, Avo 33, DEF 10, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Soldier lvl 12 (Steel Lance, Turn 3, southeast)

HP 27, Atk 23, AS 13, Hit 113, Avo 33, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Soldier lvl 13 (Javelin, Turn 4, northeast)

HP 28, Atk 20, AS 13, Hit 98, Avo 33, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Archer lvl 12 (Steel Bow, Turn 4, northeast)

HP 26, Atk 24, AS 13, Hit 116, Avo 34, DEF 10, RES 4, Crit 7, Ddg 8

Looking it over, this doesn't ORKO 1 fighter,

This fails to kill about 5 soldiers. He also has 8+10 crit. Do notice that's 11-10 displayed crit on all these fools. I do not count the turn 4 soldier, because that's basically the end of the chapter. However, do note that there are plenty of myrms with 13 AS, of which he can double. Only other people ORKOing them are Sothe and Volug.

Only problem is 26 HP and 8+1 Def. Not exactly solid, as you can see. However he does have 45 base avoid, a C with Nolan boosts it to 52. Only 8 off Sothe, and this is what Volug has. He can reduce some people to below 50 hit, so biorythm can play in his favor.

But that last bit is why I'm nervous.

....Or was it that ignorable?

[Narga_Rocks]

On the topic of transfers:

Mia needs str, skl, spd.

She hits 21.4 in first tier, so in 14 levels can give up 1.4, in other words take 28 -.05s, which is the maximum that could be taken away anyway even with a -.05 weapon being equipped for all her levels and only fighting enemies that give -.05 spd.

Then in second tier hits 33.4, or 3.4 over, so can take 68 -.05s. Considering the most is 38 -.05s, I'd again have to say she doesn't have to worry about speed.

So she hits 21.9 str and 27.35 skill (using initial growth points, which are 70 str and 50 skill).

She's all of .1 away from str, or 2 bonuses in 33 levels. Then she is 1.65 away from skill, which is 33 away.

So bands alone don't do it, since str and skl don't happen at once, but using a steel sword in PoR doesn't reduce skill, so she never needs to equip a str band at all. Just needs to level up at least 2 more times while holding steel sword/blade than while holding iron sword/blade. Also, all those iron levels cut down on the number of sword/archer/thief band levels she needs to pull.

For example, 12 levels with steel, 10 levels with iron, and 23 levels with a sword band.

I think that is easy enough to achieve that she can get str, skl, spd for RD.

Which means around level 11 she has:

1 36.8 18.8 5.6 28.4 30 19.4 14.6 9 2.9

~37 hp, ~21 str, 30 skill, 30 speed, 19.4 luck, 14.6 def, 9 res.

And so any time she gets close to a level she can bexp for cheap and get hp + str + lck/def, most cases.

Soon after she caps hp/str and starts mainly getting luck + def + res on bexp, with a small chance of mag instead of one of those.

by level 20,

40 hp, 23 str, 30 skill, 30 speed, 26 luck, 21 def, 14 res or so, and promotes to

44 hp, 26 str, 32 skill, 32 speed, 26 luck, 24 def, 18 res.

Should be pretty simple, though higher luck/def/res is also doable depending on just how many bexp levels we given. I assumed that 6 times along the way she'd be close enough to finish a level for cheap bexp.

Anyway, when she pulls 22 str that is 38 mt with a forge and an A support. ORKOs warriors in 3-7. Also, 37 mt ORKOs some of the paladins in 3-5, so if she pulls 22 str and a B/C support in 3-5 she can ORKO some things. Also, 23 str and an A support in 3-7 makes 39 mt and she ORKOs halbs. (except the killer lance guy that I'm not sure anyone actually faces.) Snipers die too. Halbs stop dying in 3-8 but warriors don't. Snipers still die too. One sniper and one warrior die in 3-10, which I admit isn't much. However 39 mt fells all the 19 def paladins. Then assuming promotion at some point in 3-11 (one way or another) for 26 str and 42 mt she is ORKOing halbs/warriors/paladins until 4-E-2 (except the 3-11 halbs) and 3HKOing generals instead of 4HKOing. (Silver blade in 3-E may be necessary for some enemies)

Considering she starts ORKOing stuff in 3-7 and Titania (T) has trouble doubling halbs/warriors at times without winging to 25 speed in 3-2 anyway, Titania is now mostly relying on 3-P to 3-5 to beat Mia. And the pre-promotion wing doesn't really change her post promotion life now at all (unlike with Vanilla Titania that does get a major boost). This on top of Mia's increased concrete durability (unsupported Mia rivals unsupported Titania by around 3-8) from bexping and I still think Mia (T) > Titania (T).

I'm not gung-ho about this, I suppose. I think I can leave it alone if this doesn't work. (Though I do think Mia(T)'s entry should change to include skill)

Perhaps it was missed...

....Or was it that ignorable?

It wasn't ignorable, per se. Just, I don't really want to deal with the Edward stuff anymore.

11/1 Edward in 1-5, but what about 1-6? He's not likely 11/2 until 1-6-2 at the earliest, 1-7 more likely. How's he doing in 1-6? Also, how is he doing with 11/2 in 1-7? Or 11/2 in 1-8 or 11/3 in 1-E? (promoted exp gain is bad, so I'm not sure he can grow faster than this, considering most Sothes probably get to level 5 or so by 3-6 and he's got forged 2 range and concrete druability and 20 AS.

Also, in the instance where Nolan is on the field and Ed supports Leo, that's a lot of exp being used up in the DB chapters. I'm thinking no room for Aran, so Nolan can't support +def for 3-6. Or Ed supports Nolan and doesn't get +1 mt in 1-4 and +2 mt in 1-E. I think you have to pick one and argue for it, but maybe mentioning what either does along the way is okay, just as long as it isn't typed in a way that can appear to imply he gets both the +mt and the +avo at the same time.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Looks like a solid argument for Mia (T) > Titania (T). I'll wait to see if anyone else opposes.

I'll add Skl for Mia (T).

[grandjackal]

Well lessee...

Myrms now have speed now, so no doubling them, though still I can't imagine anyone greater to fight them save Sothe and Zihark. Actually, Sothe fails to double the 17 AS ones, and Volug can't double them at all. Eddie on the other hand still has displayed monster crit on them (11-10 displayed crit at this point in time is nuts). Other than that, nothing really's changed aside form Pegasi and Armors entering hte fray.

1x Armor Sword lvl 12 (Steel Sword)

HP 32, Atk 23, AS 11, Hit 114, Avo 31, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 5, Ddg 10

1x Armor Sword lvl 14 (Wind Edge)

HP 32, Atk 22, AS 11, Hit 92, Avo 32, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 5, Ddg 10

1x Armor Axe lvl 13 (Hand Axe)

HP 32, Atk 23, AS 12, Hit 104, Avo 34, DEF 15, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 10

1x Armor Lance lvl 13 (Javelin)

HP 32, Atk 23, AS 11, Hit 97, Avo 32, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 5, Ddg 10

24 Mt 2RKOs these, though their crit dodge stuns me. Oh well, 8 displayed is better than nothing.

Pegasi are basically soldiers with like 3-4 less HP, so he cleanely ORKOs them as well. Otherwise, not much has changed, except maybe Eddie has a B with Leo.

Or, he could have a B with Nolan, but that's 15+ avoid, where otherwise he'd have had +2 Def. 60 avoid. 11/1 Eddie has 45+15 avoid basically. From the looks of it it's nice, but which to value more? Avoid reliable enough to actually drop people down to the 30s, or offense? Luckily, he would have +2 Def form Leo, bringing him to 9 def and 26 HP. It's meh I suppose, but lessee...That was 1-6-1 by the way. 1-6-2...

1x Sword Knight lvl 13 (Wind Edge, droppable Red Gem)

HP 27, Atk 17, AS 12, Hit 91, Avo 37, DEF 13, RES 4, Crit 4, Ddg 8

1x Sword Knight lvl 12 (Steel Sword)

HP 26, Atk 20, AS 11, Hit 115, Avo 34, DEF 13, RES 4, Crit 4, Ddg 7

1x Sword Knight lvl 13 (Steel Sword)

HP 27, Atk 20, AS 12, Hit 115, Avo 36, DEF 13, RES 4, Crit 4, Ddg 7

2x Sword Knight lvl 14 (Steel Sword)

HP 28, Atk 21, AS 12, Hit 118, Avo 37, DEF 14, RES 5, Crit 5, Ddg 8

First thing that catches my eye is these guys, basically the cavs to the left. The top guy 4RKOs Leo B Eddie. Rest 3RKO. He would have 46-73 displayed hit, a weird gap to say the least. I suppose with Nolan's 60, he would be facing 31-58 displayed, but now the top guy 3RKOs and the bottom 2RKOs. Not QUITE reliable, I'd prefer Leo to be honest. He does 11-10x2 damage to them. Leaves them with 6-8 HP and has about 10-11 crit displayed. Normal steel bow level 10 Leo has 21 Mt with Eddie support. All but the lower one they can team up and kill. I might have to forge 1 mt, but that's really the worst.

1-7 sees him with a Mt addition to A Leo, giving him 25 Mt. Now that paragon is available, he also has access to it due to being promoted. I will not slap it on him however. A level up that Narga said he would have by 1-6-2 warrents him 1 HP, 1 skill and 1 luck. Bollucks I know. He also has 3 Def+ from Leo now. I suppose now he could also have Nolan A for +2 Def. However, there is some situations he can avoid a 2RKO from myrmidons, I think now a Nolan support would be superior. He'd have 46+22 avoid, 68 avoid. However, the highest hit is 61 hit form archers. His offense is basically Jeigen now though, and the sword might be broken by now. Is steel forgeable by now? Please say it is, because that's 27+2 mt he could be packing with Leo. That is killing the 24 HP 5 Def mages, the most durable there. In one shot. Which would be hilarious.

Only thing it wouldn't ORKO anyways is armors.

1-8...Has anyone noticed these bandits are on serious steroids? In fact, I'm just now noticing how high leveled these guys are. Jesus...

1-E. Enemies are still high leveled, but for some reason are severely waker than their 1-8 counterparts. Weird...

Not that it really matters, Nothing has 12 AS anymore. Even if he got a level and got speed, he would only double the one steel poleaxe armor. Really, to double anything, you need to be Sothe. Not even Volug is doubling reliably. You would basically need to be a god. The chapter is absolutely pointless to lower end DB units.

Really depends on how much exp he's getting later into part 1. If he can get 5 levels basically, he'd be no different than if we promoted him at level 16. Perhaps waiting till level 12 to promote...

Bleh. I dunno. Really depends on if you really think DB chapters are so swamped you can't afford player phase. Since I believe you can afford player phase for the most part, I could say he still has the utility of great offense.

[Narga_Rocks]

Looks like a solid argument for Mia (T) > Titania (T). I'll wait to see if anyone else opposes.

I'll add Skl for Mia (T).

Okay, I've decided that I shouldn't just look at Mia's boosts:

Shinon - spd

He can potentially get speed. It's a "little" over the top (let's just say extreme), but I think it works:

26.15 spd thanks to growth points. 1.85 away. This is 37 boosts. He has 19 levels. He hits 28.3 skill and 1.7 away is 34 boosts.

If he:

equips archer/thief band for every single one of his levels and

equips an iron bow for all of them as well

He just barely pulls it off.

He can give up .2 skill and .05 spd from that, so there is a small amount of leeway in the weapon use or enemies attacked, but not much.

But it can be done without involving which enemies.

Though I don't think skill/speed boosts do anything but make it easier to bexp str, which doesn't do much aside from more destruction on player phase, which only got him so far the first time around anyway.

Elincia - skl, spd?

I'm wondering if she can get skill, and I'm wondering just how she got a spd transfer.

skl: 25.05 skill thanks to growth points. 19 boosts from 26 (capping). This can be done solely with bands, or of course with some help from select weapons and enemies.

spd: I'm guessing she gets a speedwing in PoR? I have no issue with that, in theory, since 24 AS in RD helps her out and with her growth and paragon she starts quadding much sooner (3 levels). So it's worth doing in PoR. Without a wing, she is 2.4 spd out from cap and 48 boosts needed in 19 levels. This needs a speed band and still needs 29 more boosts. So iron sword/blade or longsword or armourslayer for 19 levels. Which still leaves 10 more levels worth of fighting Snipers, cats, ravens. I don't think thieves appear this late, so they are out, and I think all the unpromoted units are finally gone.

As for Mist, how hard is it to get an energy drop? She'll only need 24 str boosts to cap if she gets a drop, thanks to 50 starting growth points making 16.8 on fixed. 24 str boosts and 11 spd boosts (the 25 starting points help) to get her str, mag, spd. That's only 35 levels with bands, not even involving weapons or enemies. Without the drop, str is impossible, since she is 64 boosts away and with 3 ways to get boosts and 19 levels, that's 57 max.

Luce - spd?

How did Lucia get speed? She hits 28.3 spd, which is 1.7 away. This is 34 boosts, and she has 10 levels. Even with the right band, the right weapon, and the right enemies, that's only 30 boosts, for 29.8 speed. She still needs something. I suppose she's in striking distance of a wing, since she needs nothing for a wing to work, but without a wing I don't see how it happens.

Rolf?

He got str and speed. 23.2 str and 27.5 spd (has 50 spd growth points). Caps at 25 and 28.

Needs 36 boosts of str and 10 boosts of speed.

The only way this happens is involving enemies, since 46 boosts isn't possible with just bands and weapons thanks to iron and steel having -5/+5 and +5/-5 and bows don't have access to the +5speed without -5str type weapons. With enemies it should be simple enough to get the extra 8 boosts, though.

Kieran(T) > Tanith(V)?

Is it possible? A transfer Kieran has 23 str, 22 skill, 22 speed. Steel Poleaxe has 38 mt and doubles <= 18AS enemies. Also 3 or 4 levels away from hitting 23 speed (Tanith's start) and having a fair amount more str than her at that time. Also, 22 AS doubles those firestarters in 3-9, and in 2-3 lets him double more things, though sadly not the speedwing halb. Anyway, with a crown he'll be ORKOing things in 3-11 and 3-E whereas Tanith doesn't, and since 4 levels before crowning gets him 25 str and 23 speed anyway, he doesn't miss out on much and he should edge out her def a bit and have more hp. 25 AS after promotion means he'll likely never double the generals in 4-E-1, though, however he does have wyrmslayers for 4-E-3 and with supports might pull off 3HKO from red dragons, whereas Tanith can't. I'm not sure if that is enough reasons to place him above her, though, but I thought I'd ask.

Mak-Def?

Mak was given str and spd, but def hits 25.4 out of 27 with starting growth points. So 1.6 away, or 32 levels. He has 29 levels to go, and needs no speed boost anyway thanks to those growth points. A soldier/wyvern/knight band gives him most of what he needs, and he needs 3 levels with silver weapons or killer weapons equipped. Well, he could also go, say, 24 levels with bands and 8 levels with silver/killer weapons equipped. Either way, it should let him get the def.

edit: oops, Lucia's situation is worse without the wing than I stated. Not that it matters. She has 8 levels to go, so 24 boosts max and falls 10 short, aka she hits 29.5.

edit2: Oops on Mist. She has 38 levels to go. 19 of which just have bands alone, the other 19 have bands/weapons/enemies. So she can have 76 boosts and str is not impossible. speed + str is, though, since even though 64 + 11 = 75, you can't get str and spd at the same time with any weapon/band/enemy. It's annoying.

edit3: Wait, it's impossible, but not for the reason I stated. The correct reason is because any weapon that gives +str also gives -spd. She could just use a speed band for 11 levels before promotion and the rest (including the other 8 before promotion) have str, but then all the steel equips would butcher her spd.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Shinon - spd

He can potentially get speed. It's a "little" over the top (let's just say extreme), but I think it works:

26.15 spd thanks to growth points. 1.85 away. This is 37 boosts. He has 19 levels. He hits 28.3 skill and 1.7 away is 34 boosts.

Looks good.

Elincia - skl, spd?

spd: I'm guessing she gets a speedwing in PoR? I have no issue with that, in theory, since 24 AS in RD helps her out and with her growth and paragon she starts quadding much sooner (3 levels). So it's worth doing in PoR. Without a wing, she is 2.4 spd out from cap and 48 boosts needed in 19 levels. This needs a speed band and still needs 29 more boosts. So iron sword/blade or longsword or armourslayer for 19 levels. Which still leaves 10 more levels worth of fighting Snipers, cats, ravens. I don't think thieves appear this late, so they are out, and I think all the unpromoted units are finally gone.

Well, I'm not sure we should be assuming stat boosters like that just yet until we see how many units need them. Jill already needed one (though she also worked with an Energy Drop, so she needs 1 of 5 stat boosters instead of 1 of 2 or 3), and I wouldn't be surprised if two+ others do as well.

As for Mist, how hard is it to get an energy drop?

That's a good question. Here's another: Will it help her tier position? If the answer to that is no, I won't even bother trying to give her an Energy Drop.

Luce - spd?

How did Lucia get speed? She hits 28.3 spd, which is 1.7 away. This is 34 boosts, and she has 10 levels. Even with the right band, the right weapon, and the right enemies, that's only 30 boosts, for 29.8 speed. She still needs something. I suppose she's in striking distance of a wing, since she needs nothing for a wing to work, but without a wing I don't see how it happens.

I guess she won't get it then.

Kieran(T) > Tanith(V)?

Is it possible? A transfer Kieran has 23 str, 22 skill, 22 speed. Steel Poleaxe has 38 mt and doubles <= 18AS enemies. Also 3 or 4 levels away from hitting 23 speed (Tanith's start) and having a fair amount more str than her at that time. Also, 22 AS doubles those firestarters in 3-9, and in 2-3 lets him double more things, though sadly not the speedwing halb. Anyway, with a crown he'll be ORKOing things in 3-11 and 3-E whereas Tanith doesn't, and since 4 levels before crowning gets him 25 str and 23 speed anyway, he doesn't miss out on much and he should edge out her def a bit and have more hp. 25 AS after promotion means he'll likely never double the generals in 4-E-1, though, however he does have wyrmslayers for 4-E-3 and with supports might pull off 3HKO from red dragons, whereas Tanith can't. I'm not sure if that is enough reasons to place him above her, though, but I thought I'd ask.

Looks alright to me.

Mak-Def?

Mak was given str and spd, but def hits 25.4 out of 27 with starting growth points. So 1.6 away, or 32 levels. He has 29 levels to go, and needs no speed boost anyway thanks to those growth points. A soldier/wyvern/knight band gives him most of what he needs, and he needs 3 levels with silver weapons or killer weapons equipped. Well, he could also go, say, 24 levels with bands and 8 levels with silver/killer weapons equipped. Either way, it should let him get the def.

Sounds good.

EDIT: I'm doing some of these calculations myself now. I just hope I'm doing it right.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Florete]

Okay, I did the calculations and I have possible changes to transfer units. I'll list them now and provide the calculations if needed:

Ike - Res (w/2 Talismans)

Titania - Skl (w/Secret Book)

Boyd - Spd

Gatrie - Either Spd and Skl w/Secret Book, or just Skl (How it is now)

Soren - Spd (w/Speedwing)

Ilyana - Mag (w/Spirit Dust)

Mist - Str (w/Energy Drop), Res (w/2 Talismans)

Kieran - Def w/Shield, but even still it's shaky as he needs 22 kills with a Killer weapon, if my calculations are correct. But I thought I'd mention it.

Brom - Str (w/Energy Drop)

Tormod - Mag, Spd, or Res with respective booster.

Ulki - Str (w/Energy Drop)(Likely won't change his position)

Calill - Mag (w/Spirit Dust and sort of shaky, or w/2 and it's easy)

Lucia - Skl or Spd with respective booster.

Geoffrey - Def (w/Shield)

As for the stat boosters, the candidates are fairly limited if they are only assumed to get 1. With the Talisman it's different. I'll explain why at the end. Oh, and Reyson can also cap Spd with a Speedwing, but I don't think that's very reasonable.

So, the candidates for the boosters in my proposed order are:

Robe: Ike >> Brom > Haar

Drop: Jill > Brom >> Ulki > Mist

Dust: Ilyana > Tormod/Calill

Book: Gatrie > Titania >> Lucia

Wing: *Jill > Soren > Elincia > Lucia/Tormod

Shield: Kieran > Geoffrey

**Talisman: Ike > Mist > Tormod

*If Jill gets the Energy Drop, which looks likely given the competition, she shouldn't need the Speedwing and so she'd be out of that inequality. This would leave 4 candidates for 3 Wings, and given the competition, conclusions should be easy.

**Since Ike and Mist need both Talismans and Tormod is the only other candidate, the PoR Talismans will only benefit one unit no matter what. I'm pretty sure there's no one else that can cap Res that doesn't already even with both.

Of course, I might have made a mistake somewhere, so if you notice something fishy or think I missed something, feel free to double check.

Also, looking at the the Shield candidates now, it might be reasonable to give someone both in PoR. I didn't look at that yet and I'm too tired to do so now, so if someone feels it's worth it go ahead.

[grandjackal]

Yet another thought just occured.

Aren't growths using 2 RNs as well? Ya know, like hit rates? There being an actual difference between displayed and real? Wouldn't this apply to growths as well?

[Interceptor]

What? No way. If growths used 2RNs, it would break the entire game. Anyone with growths <50% would be boned, and people with growths >50% would be ramming the cap like a hurricane. And I mean really ramming, and not the weaksauce "oh I capped a stat at 20/19" BS either. Look at the True Hit chart percentages and tell me that you disagree.

[grandjackal]

What? No way. If growths used 2RNs, it would break the entire game. Anyone with growths <50% would be boned, and people with growths >50% would be ramming the cap like a hurricane. And I mean really ramming, and not the weaksauce "oh I capped a stat at 20/19" BS either. Look at the True Hit chart percentages and tell me that you disagree.

Whether I agree with it or not isn't the issue, but rather if it uses 2 RNs or not. I could disagree, and it could still be true.

Granted, it does fuck up some things. Like, fo serious. Eddie technically has 75% Skill growth, 68% Str and Speed , 95% HP growth (lol, Kurth's displayed), but has basically 25% defense growth and 8% Res growth, practically a throwback to FE6. But for instance, what exactly does this change?

Eddie caps HP an entire 1 level before normal, 45% displayed (40% true) of capping it 2 levels earlier, at level 15 rather than 16. He caps Skill 2 levels earlier at level 16. He caps Speed at level 16. He'd have 1 more Str at level 16, but 7 Def rather than 9, and possibly no resistance. But, it also helps get boosts sooner. Example, he'll have 14 speed at level 7 rather than 13. He'll have 9 Str at level 7 rather than 8. Basically it's that sort of deal.

It hardly changes the GM any, as their base stats are just that high, and their growths for the most part tend to hover around the 60-40, so their growths don't exactly skyrocket. Not like someone with lopsided growths (lol, Aran with 82% Def and 87% Str and Skill growth).

But I suppose I'll not delve too deeply into it from here, as it may not be true...

[Interceptor]

Whether I agree with it or not isn't the issue, but rather if it uses 2 RNs or not. I could disagree, and it could still be true.

You're right that your opinion has no impact on reality.

It has nothing to do with Eddie, who has generally middle of the road growths. It has everything to do with Ulki's STR being effective 12.75%, or Titania's DEF growth being 8.2%, or Micaiah's MAG/LCK growth being 92.2% or RES being 98.1% or any number of other scenarios that you would have hit on if you had thought about this concept for more than the tenth of a second that you spent on it.

[Mekkah]

Aren't growths using 2 RNs as well?

Only one word is needed: no.

[Narga_Rocks]

My Sothe and Ilyana got blessed last playthrough.

Ilyana has a 30% speed growth. 4 out of 5 in a row hit.

5C4 * .3^4 * .7^1 = 2.835%: 1 in ~35

5C4 * .183^4 * .817^1 ~= .458%: 1 in ~218

I don't think it's 2RN. It's possible, sure, but I think it's rather unlikely.

Besides, hackers would've probably figured it out by now.

Also, Sothe got blessed in def, which is even lower.

[Interceptor]

Besides, hackers would've probably figured it out by now.

Indeed. If "hackers" were able to figure out FE11's dynamic growths, there is no way that 2RN growths in FE10 would have sailed under the radar.

[grandjackal]

Whether I agree with it or not isn't the issue, but rather if it uses 2 RNs or not. I could disagree, and it could still be true.

You're right that your opinion has no impact on reality.

It has nothing to do with Eddie, who has generally middle of the road growths. It has everything to do with Ulki's STR being effective 12.75%, or Titania's DEF growth being 8.2%, or Micaiah's MAG/LCK growth being 92.2% or RES being 98.1% or any number of other scenarios that you would have hit on if you had thought about this concept for more than the tenth of a second that you spent on it.

Thanks, captain obvious.

My Sothe and Ilyana got blessed last playthrough.

Ilyana has a 30% speed growth. 4 out of 5 in a row hit.

5C4 * .3^4 * .7^1 = 2.835%: 1 in ~35

5C4 * .183^4 * .817^1 ~= .458%: 1 in ~218

I don't think it's 2RN. It's possible, sure, but I think it's rather unlikely.

Besides, hackers would've probably figured it out by now.

Also, Sothe got blessed in def, which is even lower.

I've had Lance become a magic tank just using him normally. I've had Marty get 5 speed points in 10 levels without the Sety scroll. The odds are low, but that's sort of the point with blessage.

Besides, hackers would've probably figured it out by now.

Indeed. If "hackers" were able to figure out FE11's dynamic growths, there is no way that 2RN growths in FE10 would have sailed under the radar.

You mean the same way they found out how strong Blossom's effects are?

[Interceptor]

You mean the same way they found out how strong Blossom's effects are?

This might blow your mind, but the plural of "anecdote" is not "fact".

[grandjackal]

You mean the same way they found out how strong Blossom's effects are?

This might blow your mind, but the plural of "anecdote" is not "fact".

Neither is assuming something we don't know for sure.

[Narga_Rocks]

Whether I agree with it or not isn't the issue, but rather if it uses 2 RNs or not. I could disagree, and it could still be true.

You're right that your opinion has no impact on reality.

It has nothing to do with Eddie, who has generally middle of the road growths. It has everything to do with Ulki's STR being effective 12.75%, or Titania's DEF growth being 8.2%, or Micaiah's MAG/LCK growth being 92.2% or RES being 98.1% or any number of other scenarios that you would have hit on if you had thought about this concept for more than the tenth of a second that you spent on it.

Thanks, captain obvious.

That reminds me, I've had her luck get monumentally screwed. If it was really 7.8% of not procing, I think having <20 at level 20 would be rather difficult. It's already less than 1% to have less than 20 at level 20 according to this, and they calculate using 80% to proc.

Well, I guess I have to decrease the chance a bit more, since .8^12 becomes .922^12, so .922^12 x .078^7 is still lower than .8^12 x .2^7, but

.3773732 x .000000017565568854912 ~= 6.628 x 10 ^(-9)

.068719476736 x .0000128 ~= 8.796 x 10 ^(-7)

So with that difference it's probably only about 1 in 10000 compared to 1 in 100 or something. Of course, since the thing says .00 and says it after 18 levels as well, I'd have to say it starts around .003 or something, so 1 in 300 drops to 1 in 30000.

My Sothe and Ilyana got blessed last playthrough.

Ilyana has a 30% speed growth. 4 out of 5 in a row hit.

5C4 * .3^4 * .7^1 = 2.835%: 1 in ~35

5C4 * .183^4 * .817^1 ~= .458%: 1 in ~218

I don't think it's 2RN. It's possible, sure, but I think it's rather unlikely.

Besides, hackers would've probably figured it out by now.

Also, Sothe got blessed in def, which is even lower.

I've had Lance become a magic tank just using him normally. I've had Marty get 5 speed points in 10 levels without the Sety scroll. The odds are low, but that's sort of the point with blessage.

Uh, Marty's chance of getting 5 speed points in 10 levels on a 15% basis isn't so bad.

10C5 * .15^5 * .85^5 = (10 * 9 * 8 * 7 * 6 / (5 * 4 * 3 * 2)) * .0000759375 * .4437053125

= 252 * .0000759375 * .4437053125

~= .00849

So .849%, or 1 in ~118. Not that far off. And that's for 5 specifically, not at least 5, which would be a little higher.

.15 turns into .0465.

.85 turns into .9565

It becomes

252 * 0.00000021740261540625 * .80061711854377478125

~= 4.3862 * 10 ^(-5)

or 0.0043862%

or 1 in ~22799

So, um, 1 in 118 compared to 1 in 22799? Considering just how many people get stat screwed/blessed in similar fashion to you I'd have to say 1 in 118 seems more likely. This stuff happens, but it doesn't happen that rarely. I suppose it's not winning lottery ticket level rare, but this just doesn't seem likely.

Besides, hackers would've probably figured it out by now.

Indeed. If "hackers" were able to figure out FE11's dynamic growths, there is no way that 2RN growths in FE10 would have sailed under the radar.

You mean the same way they found out how strong Blossom's effects are?

Well, how about how as far as anybody knows the only thing going on 2RN is hitting. I can't imagine how one of my characters pulled off disarm twice on worst bio in the space of 2 or 3 turns if 5% drops to .55%. Crits happen way too often at single digit percents for it to be 2RN. Characters actually sometimes do pick stuff up, and Sothe/Heather sometimes don't. Why would those be 1RN but not stat growth? And basically for anything with a 20% growth rate it turns "average" into "rather blessed", and I'm thinking enough people hit near the averages that it is statistically incredibly improbable that stat growths are 2RN.

@Int: I thought this sentence I'm quoting is sarcasm. I don't think France was saying we actually figured out Blossom.

Edit:

@France: Besides, how would that explain fixed mode in PoR? I suppose PoR could use 1RN for stats but RD use 2RN, but that doesn't really make much sense. Why suddenly start in RD? I don't see why they'd make the stats for fixed mode so vastly different from random mode's averages. I mean, 15% drops to under 5%. Basically, if a unit is around long enough to get 6 points normally, it's like 2 now. And Soren is at 0.55% to get str in PoR, rather than 5%. So instead of getting ~2 points in his lifetime, his average is .209 points and only ~1 out of 5 people on average will even get a point for Soren by 20/20. I don't think the situation is that bad there.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Blademaster!]

I won't be surprised if this has been asked before, but why is Calill recieving no transfer bonuses at all? She recieves bonuses from Largo, who should cap Hp and skl, along with possibly capping str and maybe spd (not sure about speed as it would require speedwings or something).

I don't know if this would make her that much higher (the Hp and str boost would be nice I guess) but I just wanted to put this out there since it seems kinda odd that she isn't recieving any transfer bonuses.

[Florete]

I won't be surprised if this has been asked before, but why is Calill recieving no transfer bonuses at all? She recieves bonuses from Largo, who should cap Hp and skl, along with possibly capping str and maybe spd (not sure about speed as it would require speedwings or something).

I don't know if this would make her that much higher (the Hp and str boost would be nice I guess) but I just wanted to put this out there since it seems kinda odd that she isn't recieving any transfer bonuses.

Because it hasn't been confirmed to work. I've never heard of anyone having Calill with Largo's boosts, and I have personally tried and got only Calill's boosts. But I don't have a fixed disc, so if someone with a fixed disc can try and get a result (with photographic evidence if possible) I'll add it.

Also, no comments on my last post?

[Narga_Rocks]

I won't be surprised if this has been asked before, but why is Calill recieving no transfer bonuses at all? She recieves bonuses from Largo, who should cap Hp and skl, along with possibly capping str and maybe spd (not sure about speed as it would require speedwings or something).

I don't know if this would make her that much higher (the Hp and str boost would be nice I guess) but I just wanted to put this out there since it seems kinda odd that she isn't recieving any transfer bonuses.

I'd say that it would place her higher, provided she gets speed out of it. The improvements she'd get from speed alone would be enough to jump a couple units, I should think. Also makes it easier for her to catch up later.

Because it hasn't been confirmed to work. I've never heard of anyone having Calill with Largo's boosts, and I have personally tried and got only Calill's boosts. But I don't have a fixed disc, so if someone with a fixed disc can try and get a result (with photographic evidence if possible) I'll add it.

I'm pretty sure my disc is fixed, but I don't think I could get Largo from level 7 to level 20 in PoR in the final chapter in HM, which is my save. Well, I might have an EM save, and I think I used him a bit there, so maybe in 2 weekends when I have access to my GC. Probably won't check, though. Anyway, I also wouldn't want to zip towards 2-E from 1-P just to check out Calill's bases. I suppose there aren't any seraph robes available in 2-E, so Calill at base level with 37 hp in 2-E should suffice for proof.

But I don't really know how to take screenshots on a wii, and even if I use a digital camera I don't know how to get the picture to show up here.

Also, no comments on my last post?

Good work? ;)

..

I haven't really had the will to go through other units to see if any of them were missed, nor look much at the units you listed. I was mostly hoping others would chime in.

Well, actually, Ulki:

23.2 str with growth points. .8 away from 24. Needs 16 boosts. 13 with bands, the rest can be from enemies.

He hits Janaff's base str in RD with a +2 str. This combined with his higher speed base/growth for better procing should make him better than Janaff. I know Ulki is still one level of bexp further from tear, but with Ulki having water and higher avo for when it matters and the higher eventual proc rate I think Ulki(T) > Janaff (N/T).

To be honest, I'd say:

Jill > Ulki > Brom > Mist for the drop.

Remember, Janaff's 40 mt and a support with fire/water/dark is perfectly capable of ORKOing plenty of things already (many of which without the support), making the transfer on Ulki worth it.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

I suppose there aren't any seraph robes available in 2-E, so Calill at base level with 37 hp in 2-E should suffice for proof.

A Seraph Robe would boost it to 39 anyway.

This combined with his higher speed base/growth for better procing should make him better than Janaff. I know Ulki is still one level of bexp further from tear, but with Ulki having water and higher avo for when it matters and the higher eventual proc rate I think Ulki(T) > Janaff (N/T).

The level was what made me think Janaff would still be better than Ulki (T). The Spd and avoid are almost entirely superfluous. Janaff's base Spd doubles everything until 4-E-2 and even there only misses a couple enemies. Then Ulki has a higher chance of doubling Auras naturally. Vykan made a post somewhere showing how Janaff is already super durable, so the durability advantage is like nothing.

I personally thought cheaper/earlier access to Tear > doubling Auras and having a slightly better affinity, although the guaranteed +1 atk Ulki gets from his affinity could be enough to push him above if it's significant.

[Blademaster!]

I won't be surprised if this has been asked before, but why is Calill recieving no transfer bonuses at all? She recieves bonuses from Largo, who should cap Hp and skl, along with possibly capping str and maybe spd (not sure about speed as it would require speedwings or something).

I don't know if this would make her that much higher (the Hp and str boost would be nice I guess) but I just wanted to put this out there since it seems kinda odd that she isn't recieving any transfer bonuses.

Because it hasn't been confirmed to work. I've never heard of anyone having Calill with Largo's boosts, and I have personally tried and got only Calill's boosts. But I don't have a fixed disc, so if someone with a fixed disc can try and get a result (with photographic evidence if possible) I'll add it.

Also, no comments on my last post?

According to this website, it works apparently. And should it really be all that surprising if it does? I mean, it does make sense for her to recieve bonuses from Largo considering he isn't playable and she is his wife and stuff.

[Narga_Rocks]

I suppose there aren't any seraph robes available in 2-E, so Calill at base level with 37 hp in 2-E should suffice for proof.

A Seraph Robe would boost it to 39 anyway.

true.

This combined with his higher speed base/growth for better procing should make him better than Janaff. I know Ulki is still one level of bexp further from tear, but with Ulki having water and higher avo for when it matters and the higher eventual proc rate I think Ulki(T) > Janaff (N/T).

The level was what made me think Janaff would still be better than Ulki (T). The Spd and avoid are almost entirely superfluous. Janaff's base Spd doubles everything until 4-E-2 and even there only misses a couple enemies. Then Ulki has a higher chance of doubling Auras naturally. Vykan made a post somewhere showing how Janaff is already super durable, so the durability advantage is like nothing.

I personally thought cheaper/earlier access to Tear > doubling Auras and having a slightly better affinity, although the guaranteed +1 atk Ulki gets from his affinity could be enough to push him above if it's significant.

The speed is more for doubling swordmasters in part 4 and comparing a 40% tear to a 34% tear, since the bexp probably gives Ulki 2x2 speed but Janaff's likely gives him none.

Janaff's Tear: 56.44% proc in two hits.

Ulki's Tear: 64% proc in two hits.

Janaff's Tear + Adept: 81.025264%

Ulki's Tear + Adept: 87.04%.

I suppose it's not massive. Also, Ulki's avo allows the possibility of wrath, whereas Janaff's probably doesn't. Also when they reach the hp + def for surviving a crossbow it's a case of Ulki can take that crossbow and face ridiculously low chances of dying from other enemies attacking him (especially considering his already low chance of getting hit by the bolt itself) whereas Janaff takes much higher chances of dying afterwards (OHKOd) and of getting hit by the bolt in the first place. Basically it gives Ulki more options for where he can go.

The water would be a big plus, except if Janaff is in play Ulki should support Janaff since they grow so fast and could hit C in 3-10, B in 3-11, A in 3-E much easier than he could with anybody else. Others are probably C in 3-11, B in 4-P/1/2, A in 4-E. However, since Janaff isn't always deployed when Ulki is deployed, and Ulki isn't always deployed when Janaff is deployed, it seems to me that Ulki's water has some affect, since this all means that sometimes Ulki(T) has +1 mt on Janaff in their parallel universes and ORKOs more things. When Janaff's off on his own there may not be a GM with fire/water/dark willing to support Janaff and he'd have to support someone else. And even if he could support fire/water/dark, so then could Ulki, meaning B and A support levels could give Ulki an advantage still.

Also, if one gets tear before the other then the one without tear probably hits S strike earlier. I suppose, though, the idea is they both hit level 30 through bexp in 3-8 and Ulki has a higher opportunity cost of reaching it than Janaff does, in which case Janaff may also end up hitting S earlier thanks to the lower proc rate of his tear.

Oh, and even if Janaff (N/T) > Ulki (T w/ str) I'd have to say Ulki getting the drop in PoR still> Brom getting one, since 32 str on Ulki will have a bigger effect than 21 str on Brom. Brom does get some utility out of it in 2-1 and 2-2, though, so that might actually be enough to put his getting the drop over Ulki getting it, I suppose. I haven't looked into what improvements to efficiency the 21 str may bring us.

Regardless, Brom getting it is certainly not >> Ulki getting it. Just one, if that.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Narga_Rocks