OMG it's a tier list

[Shadow Mir]

I won't be surprised if this has been asked before, but why is Calill recieving no transfer bonuses at all? She recieves bonuses from Largo, who should cap Hp and skl, along with possibly capping str and maybe spd (not sure about speed as it would require speedwings or something).

I don't know if this would make her that much higher (the Hp and str boost would be nice I guess) but I just wanted to put this out there since it seems kinda odd that she isn't recieving any transfer bonuses.

I tried using Largo once, and I got him to level 20. It didn't work. All I got were Calill's boosts.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Richter Renard

[Narga_Rocks]

I won't be surprised if this has been asked before, but why is Calill recieving no transfer bonuses at all? She recieves bonuses from Largo, who should cap Hp and skl, along with possibly capping str and maybe spd (not sure about speed as it would require speedwings or something).

I don't know if this would make her that much higher (the Hp and str boost would be nice I guess) but I just wanted to put this out there since it seems kinda odd that she isn't recieving any transfer bonuses.

I tried using Largo once, and I got him to level 20. It didn't work. All I got were Calill's boosts.

Can you transfer Easy Mode games? If you can (fixed disc) and Calill still doesn't get Largo's boosts then it doesn't look good for her.

[Shadow Mir]

I won't be surprised if this has been asked before, but why is Calill recieving no transfer bonuses at all? She recieves bonuses from Largo, who should cap Hp and skl, along with possibly capping str and maybe spd (not sure about speed as it would require speedwings or something).

I don't know if this would make her that much higher (the Hp and str boost would be nice I guess) but I just wanted to put this out there since it seems kinda odd that she isn't recieving any transfer bonuses.

I tried using Largo once, and I got him to level 20. It didn't work. All I got were Calill's boosts.

Can you transfer Easy Mode games? If you can (fixed disc) and Calill still doesn't get Largo's boosts then it doesn't look good for her.

I cannot. I've had the game since November 2007.

[Dat Nick]

CallilLargo boosts don't stack.

Like, if Callil caps mag and Largo caps str and mag [i know it's a retarded example but it's still an example] the mag boost doesn't stack up, so she just gets +2 str and mag.

Also, I find it pretty hard to believe that Gatrie capping out his stats to get spd BEXP'd even quicker doesn't change his position at all [He really can't go over normal Ti?] or did we go over this?

Edited October 15, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Blademaster!]

I won't be surprised if this has been asked before, but why is Calill recieving no transfer bonuses at all? She recieves bonuses from Largo, who should cap Hp and skl, along with possibly capping str and maybe spd (not sure about speed as it would require speedwings or something).

I don't know if this would make her that much higher (the Hp and str boost would be nice I guess) but I just wanted to put this out there since it seems kinda odd that she isn't recieving any transfer bonuses.

I tried using Largo once, and I got him to level 20. It didn't work. All I got were Calill's boosts.

Do you remember the stats that they each capped? The boosts don't overlap.

Also, I hope it is not against the rules to post this link, and I apologize if it is, but http://serenesforest.net/fe10/transfer.html Right under base stats it says she recieves the bonus, and being that that note has been there since this game first came out in Japan, if this wasn't true I imagine it would have been fixed by now, esspecially since the note was changed to say that the stats do not stack, and if memory serves, that note was not there the last time I checked.

[Florete]

According to this website, it works apparently. And should it really be all that surprising if it does? I mean, it does make sense for her to recieve bonuses from Largo considering he isn't playable and she is his wife and stuff.

But according to what actually happened, it doesn't. The website can be wrong.

Also, if one gets tear before the other then the one without tear probably hits S strike earlier. I suppose, though, the idea is they both hit level 30 through bexp in 3-8 and Ulki has a higher opportunity cost of reaching it than Janaff does, in which case Janaff may also end up hitting S earlier thanks to the lower proc rate of his tear.

Even so, I don't think Tear would make it any slower than 3 or 4 more battles. And killing with Tear for a while > those few enemies with A and not S Strike.

Oh, and even if Janaff (N/T) > Ulki (T w/ str) I'd have to say Ulki getting the drop in PoR still> Brom getting one, since 32 str on Ulki will have a bigger effect than 21 str on Brom. Brom does get some utility out of it in 2-1 and 2-2, though, so that might actually be enough to put his getting the drop over Ulki getting it, I suppose. I haven't looked into what improvements to efficiency the 21 str may bring us.

Well, lemme see.

1x Soldier lvl 19 (Javelin)
HP 32, Atk 23, AS 16, Hit 111, Avo 46, DEF 13, RES 9, Crit 8, Ddg 9

He can kill this guy in two hits with an Iron Axe instead of 3. Since you might want to do this before getting the Steel Axe, it's worth noting, especially since he has a Javelin.

1x Armor Lance lvl 20 (Javelin)
HP 38, Atk 26, AS 15, Hit 110, Avo 47, DEF 18, RES 8, Crit 7, Ddg 12

With the Steel Axe, this is now a 3HKO instead of 4HKO. (14 damage vs. 12 damage)

1x Yeardley lvl 5 (Lance General boss, Steel Greatlance, one authority star)
HP 38, Atk 33, AS 17, Hit 118, Avo 46, DEF 20, RES 11, Crit 9, Ddg 7

After 3 hits from Brom (T), Nephenee can kill him even with a Javelin. This is player phase attack, enemy phase counter, player phase, then Neph kills. Note that Brom (T) can survive the 3 attacks.

Neph with a Steel Greatlance could kill after 3 Brom attacks even without the Str transfer, but then she risks missing (only 74% displayed at neutral Bio) and she can be 2HKOd. Javelins Hit is actually worse by 5, but she doesn't risk a counter.

So it does help a bit in 2-1. Not a whole lot, but it's something.

As for 2-2, first thing I can see is that he does more damage to Armor Knights and Generals, and since the team generally has a tough time killing them and we want to go fast, every extra point of damage is good. He also has a better chance at 2HKOing Halberdiers. And he can 2HKO the boss as well.

In the end, it probably won't be as much as Ulki's +8 damage per round, but it's not a very wide gap either.

Regardless, Brom getting it is certainly not >> Ulki getting it. Just one, if that.

I'll admit I didn't look into it that much other than Ulki now having Janaff's base Str.

Also, I find it pretty hard to believe that Gatrie capping out his stats to get spd BEXP'd even quicker doesn't change his position at all [He really can't go over normal Ti?] or did we go over this?

We didn't, but he can likely get a Spd transfer as well, which would almost definitely push him higher.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Shadow Mir]

I won't be surprised if this has been asked before, but why is Calill recieving no transfer bonuses at all? She recieves bonuses from Largo, who should cap Hp and skl, along with possibly capping str and maybe spd (not sure about speed as it would require speedwings or something).

I don't know if this would make her that much higher (the Hp and str boost would be nice I guess) but I just wanted to put this out there since it seems kinda odd that she isn't recieving any transfer bonuses.

I tried using Largo once, and I got him to level 20. It didn't work. All I got were Calill's boosts.

Do you remember the stats that they each capped? The boosts don't overlap.

Also, I hope it is not against the rules to post this link, and I apologize if it is, but http://serenesforest.net/fe10/transfer.html Right under base stats it says she recieves the bonus, and being that that note has been there since this game first came out in Japan, if this wasn't true I imagine it would have been fixed by now, esspecially since the note was changed to say that the stats do not stack, and if memory serves, that note was not there the last time I checked.

Largo capped HP, Strength, Skill and Speed. Calill capped Magic and Speed.

[Blademaster!]

According to this website, it works apparently. And should it really be all that surprising if it does? I mean, it does make sense for her to recieve bonuses from Largo considering he isn't playable and she is his wife and stuff.

But according to what actually happened, it doesn't. The website can be wrong.

It isn't just this website though. If you search it on google or look on gamefaqs, it mentions the same exact thing in multiple places. Also, because there is evidence of their stats not stacking on each other, that points to it having been tested and proven true. And again, this is knowledge about the game that has been known since before the game came out in america, and the fact that Calill would recieve bonuses from Largo should not sound strange should it be true, and makes alot of sense given that he is not playable in the game. It seems to me that it would be very strange for something that has been common knowledge about this game since day one to be wrong after about 2-3 years.

Given that this website also has info about the problem with Sothe's data transfer (that was previously unknown), I'm sure this would have been something that has been fixed by now should it not be true.

There is more evidence pointing towards the fact that it does work rather than it does not. I'm going to attempt to make a video/take a picture about this problem this weekend, but I may not be able to as I'm curently in a situation where I have no real camera. If someone does know of a place where there is a video/picture, that would save me some time.

I really don't want to make such a big deal out of this, but I just find it hard to believe that Calill would not recieve the bonuses after it has been common knowledge for so long. And me thinking as such should not be surprising either given the circumstances of such a statement.

[Florete]

It isn't just this website though. If you search it on google or look on gamefaqs, it mentions the same exact thing in multiple places. Also, because there is evidence of their stats not stacking on each other, that points to it having been tested and proven true. And again, this is knowledge about the game that has been known since before the game came out in america, and the fact that Calill would recieve bonuses from Largo should not sound strange should it be true, and makes alot of sense given that he is not playable in the game. It seems to me that it would be very strange for something that has been common knowledge about this game since day one to be wrong after about 2-3 years.

Given that this website also has info about the problem with Sothe's data transfer (that was previously unknown), I'm sure this would have been something that has been fixed by now should it not be true.

There is more evidence pointing towards the fact that it does work rather than it does not. I'm going to attempt to make a video/take a picture about this problem this weekend, but I may not be able to as I'm curently in a situation where I have no real camera. If someone does know of a place where there is a video/picture, that would save me some time.

I really don't want to make such a big deal out of this, but I just find it hard to believe that Calill would not recieve the bonuses after it has been common knowledge for so long. And me thinking as such should not be surprising either given the circumstances of such a statement.

Listen, I'm not saying that it's unreasonable or that I don't want it to be true or something (I do like Calill), but there are scenarios that could make the info false, and that's what I've been led to believe. Like, maybe it only worked in the japanese version of the game? Or maybe, as previously stated, you need a fixed disc? If it's the former, it's a no-go, because this list is based off the NA/UK versions of the game (obviously, given some of the arguments used). If it's the latter, I simply need confirmation.

And another thing. This may have been "common knowledge," but do you know anyone who's tried it and gotten Largo's boosts? It's possible that all these other sources for the info from somewhere but never actually tried it out. I've tried and it didn't work. Richter Renard tried and it didn't work. I know another guy who goes by Lyle Dayek and he told me it didn't work (though I think he hacked and capped everyone's stats, so that would only be evidence of boosts not stacking). I've never heard of anyone getting Largo's boosts on Calill, nor have I seen screenshots or anything. If someone can confirm that it works with a fixed disc, I'll apply the bonuses. Until then, I have to believe it doesn't work in the English versions of the game.

I mean, concrete evidence would be as simple as base Calill having 37 HP. If there's a screenshot of that on the internet somewhere (in English) or a video or something, I can roll with it fine.

EDIT: Although I shouldn't be too hasty with that. Calill can cap HP in PoR herself, though it requires both Seraph Robes and every level of HP she can get to cap it. I guess extremely concrete evidence would be her with 37 base HP and someone else who can't cap HP naturally in PoR with boosted as well. Lethe or Nephenee would probably be best for this (both end up 2 away from capping at best without a Robe in PoR, and both are in 2-E with Calill).

EDIT2: Haar, Elincia, and Marcia would work as well. Haar would likely be the easiest.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Narga_Rocks]

So, in case it got lost in all the posts, I'd like someone to say anything about Mia (T) v. Titania (T).

My position is obvious.

Red Fox is looking to see if anyone opposes it.

And is there anybody at all with France on his bid to drive Edward into Mid Tier?

Or his longtime (off and on) quest to push Leonardo above Rolf?

[Interceptor]

Given that this website also has info about the problem with Sothe's data transfer (that was previously unknown), I'm sure this would have been something that has been fixed by now should it not be true.

This does not really support your point. Conventional wisdom was that Sothe's transferred stats would never result in going below his RD bases, and it took me someone transfering an HP-screwed Sothe to verify the real behavior. The Largo/Calill thing fits the same mold: the people claiming that Calill gets Largo's bonuses largely haven't tried it themselves, they are parroting what they've heard from others.

All it requires is someone to do a proper test.

So, in case it got lost in all the posts, I'd like someone to say anything about Mia (T) v. Titania (T).

My position is obvious.

Red Fox is looking to see if anyone opposes it.

I'm not opposed to it. Super-Titania's only gain is +2 SPD, which merely has the effect of saving her army the cost of a Speedwing. That sounds awesome, except that we already had enough +SPD for the major players via wings and crowns, so the Wing is going to a second-string recipient. Maybe we use it to keep Ike from getting SPD-screwed, or increase Oscar's viability against Paladins (without fixing his mt problems), but it's not like we're going to make Boyd a great unit or anything, and we already were able to make Haar pretty amazing even alongside regular Titania.

Aside from that, all of Titania's old problems still exist. She's still on a horse, Sol still sucks, her lategame is still very shaky, she has no crit, her durability is nothing special, etc.

Super-Mia's gains are considerable by comparison, since +STR is exactly what the earlygame doctor ordered, and she turns into a good BEXP candidate. Granted, Mia's problems still exist, but things like her 1-2 range game are now mitigated by her sucking less with a Wind Edge due to having +2 STR, and her newly-minted BEXP prospects boost her other martial abilities and even make her a slightly better Ike support candidate. Her lategame is largely unchanged other than reaching optimal fighting level earlier, since she's stomping both Titania and Super-Titania.

And is there anybody at all with France on his bid to drive Edward into Mid Tier?

Or his longtime (off and on) quest to push Leonardo above Rolf?

Eddie is fine where he is. Leo might have had a case for being better than Rolf if it wasn't so easy to be clean-up crew in the GMs.

[Zkirsche]

Is Zihark (T) really < Sothe (N). Zihark's strength is now better, meaning he owns much more and the extra skill and speed makes him a better bexp candidate than he was once he caps them. This will help increase his def and HP more too. So yeah, I don't see why Zihark (T) < Sothe (N).

[-Cynthia-]

Being a better BEXP candidate doesn't help Zihark out too much pre-Part 4 since the DB has so little to spread around and we'll get more out of it on a T1 unit anyway, since Zihark takes a lot.

[Florete]

Is Zihark (T) really < Sothe (N). Zihark's strength is now better, meaning he owns much more and the extra skill and speed makes him a better bexp candidate than he was once he caps them. This will help increase his def and HP more too. So yeah, I don't see why Zihark (T) < Sothe (N).

Zihark's problem has always been durability, which the transfer does nothing for until part 4, and even then he'll have trouble increasing his durability even with BEXP since Def is his second to lowest growth, so until they cap, HP, Str, Luck, and Res will all have priority over Def. Then add in that he can't even get that much BEXP in part 4 because he only has two base sessions before Endgame and he'll want to be promoted by then.

He'll be easier to raise in part 4 since offense was an issue there, but I honestly can't see that alone pushing him any higher than he is unless someone can make a case for him > Nailah based on it.

[Narga_Rocks]

Is Zihark (T) really < Sothe (N). Zihark's strength is now better, meaning he owns much more and the extra skill and speed makes him a better bexp candidate than he was once he caps them. This will help increase his def and HP more too. So yeah, I don't see why Zihark (T) < Sothe (N).

Zihark's problem has always been durability, which the transfer does nothing for until part 4, and even then he'll have trouble increasing his durability even with BEXP since Def is his second to lowest growth, so until they cap, HP, Str, Luck, and Res will all have priority over Def. Then add in that he can't even get that much BEXP in part 4 because he only has two base sessions before Endgame and he'll want to be promoted by then.

He'll be easier to raise in part 4 since offense was an issue there, but I honestly can't see that alone pushing him any higher than he is unless someone can make a case for him > Nailah based on it.

The difference between Zihark (N) and Zihark (T) is needing the brave sword to ORKO in part 1 a little bit less, doubling the 22 AS cats either as soon as 3-6 starts or soon after, and possible crowning in 4-P/1/2 without gimping his str instead of needing to wait for 4-3/4/5. Otherwise, he can still cap str at level 20 normally with just two sets of bexp once skl + spd + res cap, so bexp in the base at level 15 and at level 19 would cover it, although there has been some dispute about the maximum reasonable level he can have in 4-P/1/2. Level 15 means Zihark (N) can probably bexp once to level 16, then you could limit his exp in 4-P/1/2 to reach level 19, bexp to 20, cap str at 24 and crown him. 26 str doesn't compare to what Mia has at this point, but it's still not as bad as it could be. Also, ~6 levels in 4-3/4/5 should get him to 28 str, and the Vague Katti would allow him to 3HKO the 51hp/31def generals, making Adept on Zihark as good an idea as anyone that 3HKOs and doubles. It's possible he could get his hands on an Adept in 4-E.

Anyway, the difference is not using the brave sword in part 1, doubling cats, and crowning in 4-P/1/2 instead of 4-3/4/5. He'll lose hp/luck/def from this idea, but he's always counted on his affinity for durability in part 4 anyway, since 45hp and 20 def at level --/20/4 were never very good in the first place (ties 20/20/5 Ilyana). Besides, without time to bexp his hp/def he can't make use of having stuff capped in tier 2 anyway, and the difference of level 15 in 4-P/1/2 and level 15/1 probably results in a small level loss, but my str maxing idea meant he could only have 3 or 4 levels in that chapter anyway, and he should be able to pull that off at level 15/1 anyway.

So, he is a little better offensively in part 4, now, since 25 str in 4-P/1/2 and 4 or so levels could result in more str in 4-3/4/5 than he'd have otherwise, and much more speed (hence higher proc rate) for the rest.

Trouble is, he still loses to Nailah almost as badly as before in each comparison, and his part 3 hasn't improved that much so as to change things in that comparison.

I think it comes down to his 1-6 and 1-7, so if someone wants to pull numbers comparing Zihark (N) to Zihark (T) that's a start. Of course, Brave Sword exists in 1-7, so again it's needing Brave Sword to ORKO vs. possibly not needing it to ORKO as many. Which means he's relying on a massive improvement in 1-6 if he wants to jump Nailah.

[grandjackal]

So, in case it got lost in all the posts, I'd like someone to say anything about Mia (T) v. Titania (T).

My position is obvious.

Red Fox is looking to see if anyone opposes it.

And is there anybody at all with France on his bid to drive Edward into Mid Tier?

Or his longtime (off and on) quest to push Leonardo above Rolf?

Well all that really happens with Mia is she starts killing things faster since she has insane transfers that max her speed (for slowplaying), and +2 Str. Titaina on the other hand lost the need for an entire resource, a speed wing. Mia still needs Ike for the avoid, still needs her skills, and her forges (just for a smaller time frame now). Titania on the other hand now needs nothing. On top of this, better mobility is usually praised in the GM chapters, as most are either wide open, or require rushing. Only a few chapters prevent paladins from being all-godly, the cliffs with the laguz (and really, by the time you get there, action's almost over anyways), the river of 3-2 that matters nothing as you can coax the boss to fly to you and thus end teh chapter, and teh hawks' joinign chapter which is probably the only real concern. Transfer Mia did get better, but only slightly. Titania became a LOT better. You can guess my position.

Never ending quest, aren't I knightly? I dunno, I just keep feeling they are Not quite rated rightly. At first I'll admit was me overhyping, but I can see why Eddie is where he is. Sort of like Lucia, except he has more chapters to be put to use, as only decent as he is then.

Eddie is fine where he is. Leo might have had a case for being better than Rolf if it wasn't so easy to be clean-up crew in the GMs.

Sort of silly to consider rating someone for "being able to finish people off". On average in 1-1, Nolan can do 17 damage to most the enemies on the map, which leaves them with like 8-4 HP. Leo is capable of finishing that at base, Eddie can with a Str level that he can easily earn for his 1-P performance, and obviously Miccy can. We don't give them credit for that, because obviously it's fucking stupid.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well all that really happens with Mia is she starts killing things faster since she has insane transfers that max her speed (for slowplaying), and +2 Str. Titaina on the other hand lost the need for an entire resource, a speed wing. Mia still needs Ike for the avoid, still needs her skills, and her forges (just for a smaller time frame now). Titania on the other hand now needs nothing. On top of this, better mobility is usually praised in the GM chapters, as most are either wide open, or require rushing. Only a few chapters prevent paladins from being all-godly, the cliffs with the laguz (and really, by the time you get there, action's almost over anyways), the river of 3-2 that matters nothing as you can coax the boss to fly to you and thus end teh chapter, and teh hawks' joinign chapter which is probably the only real concern. Transfer Mia did get better, but only slightly. Titania became a LOT better. You can guess my position.

Uh, Mia starts 100% ORKOing like 4 chapters earlier, possibly 5, matches Titania's concrete durability before promotion and leapfrogs over it after promotion, and even in 3-P and 3-1 she's better since she now 4HKOs all warriors with a wo dao meaning really high proc rates. In case you didn't know, the only guys 100% ORKOing the 20 AS warriors are Shinon and Transfer Ike. Mia will basically double or more other units' proc rates, or if they equip a killer weapon she'll still beat their proc rate, just not doubling it anymore, only now she'll also do more damage than them if they don't proc.

Also, as soon as 3-2 rolls around she'll be 3RKOing or better everything but generals forever (took a couple chapters to guarantee that on halbs before) and 4HKOing generals much sooner than before.

Titania should honestly be taking that speedwing if she doesn't have a transfer, so all it means is that it costs her less, or in other words we have an extra speedwing. But considering the major players could already get their speed boosts it just means the extra one is going to Kyza or Boyd or someone and it's not boosting the team overly much. Also, if you want you can remove Adept from Mia once she starts ORKOing everything but generals, and you can do this sooner. Speaking of, it means in 3-8 and 3-10 she doesn't really have to compete with Ulki (if he's in play) for an adept because she doesn't need it as much anymore. I'd say that a transfer Titania doesn't improve the rest of the team all that much, and Transfer Mia actually does let the team get something else eventually. And transfer Titania doesn't really improve herself. All she does is let someone else have a wing, and that other unit wasn't very good with it in the first place. Transfer Mia improves herself a fair margin.

And in what chapter is 9 move so important? Parts of 3-2? Not really. Maybe in the west. 3-3 is cramped. 3-4 half the enemies are where Titania can't go, though she could get Gatrie over there quicker and maybe that should be acknowledged. 3-5 is cramped. 3-7 has river. 3-8 she has the same move as Mia. 3-10 is the main chapter where she gets something. 3-11 she gets a bit, but she can't be ferried, so it balances. The area your team fights in 3-E is tiny. That's like 2 chapters where her move is a significant advantage. The rest of the time it's just her canto.

I don't see how Mia only got a bit better but Titania got a lot better.

Difference between Titania (N) and Titania (T), the team gets an extra speedwing.

Difference between Mia (N) and Mia (T), Mia destroys even more. And it is a significant improvement. Considering Titania improves in 3-P and 3-1 only, Mia improves a lot more. Also, around the time when other units might start being useful with Adept and she faces competition, she no longer needs it for anything but generals. Which means, when another unit finally brings the team a significant improvement from one of the things Mia takes, she can let them have it. Titania can't really say that.

Eddie is fine where he is. Leo might have had a case for being better than Rolf if it wasn't so easy to be clean-up crew in the GMs.

Sort of silly to consider rating someone for "being able to finish people off". On average in 1-1, Nolan can do 17 damage to most the enemies on the map, which leaves them with like 8-4 HP. Leo is capable of finishing that at base, Eddie can with a Str level that he can easily earn for his 1-P performance, and obviously Miccy can. We don't give them credit for that, because obviously it's fucking stupid.

The idea is that he's more than capable of being trained. Leo isn't, at least in a few chapters. Sure, in 1-1 it might be fine, though Nolan could miss with the steel axe. What about later where it takes Aran + Nolan + Leo at times to finish things off? There does come a time when the units with which Leo can combo to KO are more limited than the units with which Rolf can combo. And again, Rolf starts being useful himself after a little while. Leo needs training for longer.

And being able to be a successful member of the clean-up crew is better than not.

edit: scratch the whole Shinon 100% ORKOing warriors. He doesn't. He does, however, 3 or 4 HKO with the killer bow, meaning he has a higher proc rate than Mia. Point remains the same, Mia (T) has a better proc rate than all but one normal character and one additional transfer character. Only if Transfer Ike doesn't exist there is nobody 100% ORKOing so having a little lower proc rate than one unit that is player phase only is still quite good.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Blademaster!]

On the subject of Leonardo being above Rolf, although this has probably been argued before, I think that Leonardo probably should be above Rolf. Although Nolan can do this to, Leonardo can use crossbows(you can buy one on 3-6) and Beast Foe. At 84 damage, I'd be surprised if there were Tigers surviving that on any chapter that isn't 4-5. Although this may be favoritism, I'd imagine Nolan would be attempting to act as a guard with Tarvos and some sort of support that boost's his def and avoid so I think Leonardo would more likely be using this combo.

[Florete]

In case you didn't know, the only guys 100% ORKOing the 20 AS warriors are Shinon and Transfer Ike.

Actually

1x Warrior lvl 7 (Steel Poleax)
HP 40, Atk 36, AS 20, Hit 111, Avo 53, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 9, Ddg 13

Shinon's 31 atk with a Steel Bow doesn't ORKO at all (8 HP left). Once he gets the Silencer he can, but you were talking about 3-1 and 3-P here.

But considering the major players could already get their speed boosts it just means the extra one is going to Kyza or Boyd or someone and it's not boosting the team overly much.

I guess this is another problem with how we rank transfer units. If Titania (T) is on the same team as Boyd (T), he can take the Speedwing and effectively have 22 base AS (He might have 23 after he actually uses it). This allows him to double Sages, Paladins, and Generals that he previously couldn't and will get him to doubling other things much faster. With his naturally high Str, I'm sure he can be ORKOing things quite a lot.

The obvious problem is that if we are to continue ranking transfer units in a void, this scenario does not exist.

And transfer Titania doesn't really improve herself.

That's not true at all. 3-P has ~7 enemies in the 18-19 AS range (She near ORKOs some Generals with a Steel Poleax). If she's assumed to get Skl transferred as I showed earlier, she has one level of Str and Skl before capping and then it's HP, Spd, and Lck until Spd caps after two levels, then Res. She won't get any Def, but the 1.6 HP and .8 Res aren't too bad, especially combined with the boosted AS.

3-3 is cramped.

That's what makes Canto good. Titania can attack, then move out of the way.

3-5 is cramped.

3-5 is only cramped at the start, but once you get down it's pretty much open space.

[Interceptor]

Beleive it or not, Leo's tier postion already reflects how silly powerful he can be in 3-6. Besides Beastfoe, he can also combine his PRF bow with Wrath and get some scary high kill percentages (which is good for him because it lets someone else use BEstfoe at the same time).

[Narga_Rocks]

In case you didn't know, the only guys 100% ORKOing the 20 AS warriors are Shinon and Transfer Ike.

Actually

1x Warrior lvl 7 (Steel Poleax)
HP 40, Atk 36, AS 20, Hit 111, Avo 53, DEF 15, RES 9, Crit 9, Ddg 13

Shinon's 31 atk with a Steel Bow doesn't ORKO at all (8 HP left). Once he gets the Silencer he can, but you were talking about 3-1 and 3-P here.

Took me a while but I added an edit at the bottom of my post admitting that. I actually chose to leave the rest of my post in its original form, but maybe I shouldn't have.

But considering the major players could already get their speed boosts it just means the extra one is going to Kyza or Boyd or someone and it's not boosting the team overly much.

I guess this is another problem with how we rank transfer units. If Titania (T) is on the same team as Boyd (T), he can take the Speedwing and effectively have 22 base AS (He might have 23 after he actually uses it). This allows him to double Sages, Paladins, and Generals that he previously couldn't and will get him to doubling other things much faster. With his naturally high Str, I'm sure he can be ORKOing things quite a lot.

The obvious problem is that if we are to continue ranking transfer units in a void, this scenario does not exist.

This is true, although he only hits 24.15 out of 27 and needs 17 boosts just to get in range of a speedwing, though that can be done easily with bands. 57 boosts away without bands, though technically in 37 levels he can pull that off, too, with bands and enough uses of an iron axe or a poleaxe or a hammer. Of course, steel axe use or hand/short axe or tomahawk all cut into his speed, and the iron axe cuts into his strength. He has 1.7 to give, though so it's probably fine.

This could help out, since he'll ORKO with a steel forge (after a few levels, maybe even at base) things like paladins, sages at base, and generals with a hammer now that he's doubling, though hammer use isn't something without competition and with 20 skill/13 luck he's not even a good user of them considering miss chance. Still, that forge and the killing of paladins is a good thing, and 22 speed with a 45% growth and 27 speed cap means he's just 7 or so levels from 25 speed and doubling warriors (assuming he can't get 4 or 5 levels in time for 24 AS to matter) and halbs and he'll likely continue to double them from that point on. 11 levels or so from his cap and he has 12 to pull it off and 29 AS after promotion. That should cover 4-P/1/2 fairly well and enough levels there should pull off 4-3/4/5. Also 20/12 or so is all it takes to start doubling spirits and auras, and with 38.95 speed he'll be quite good there. Actually, with him being a decent candidate for an Oscar support (Oscar likes +mt and bonds) Boyd could very well move up if we aren't in a void. Speedwing for Boyd in PoR, Titania gets a speed transfer, Speedwing for Boyd in RD, and he's gotta be above Nephenee (N), and possibly even Nephenee (T). Only if we consider Boyd (T) and Titania (T) coexisting, though.

I'm not sure any other unit getting a speed transfer makes that much of a difference. Soren, maybe, except his durability limits how much of an impact he'd make with 22 AS at the start, and his caps limit it further since if he starts with 20 AS from a transfer he can easily bexp towards 23 AS and thus a speedwing shouldn't be used until after promotion, if at all. Even if he doesn't get a spd transfer, the rest of it makes bexping to 23 AS easy enough that a speedwing before promotion is still a waste.

So it's pretty much reliant on transfer Boyd also existing and getting a speedwing in PoR.

And transfer Titania doesn't really improve herself.

That's not true at all. 3-P has ~7 enemies in the 18-19 AS range (She near ORKOs some Generals with a Steel Poleax). If she's assumed to get Skl transferred as I showed earlier, she has one level of Str and Skl before capping and then it's HP, Spd, and Lck until Spd caps after two levels, then Res. She won't get any Def, but the 1.6 HP and .8 Res aren't too bad, especially combined with the boosted AS.

Yeah, I mentioned 3-P and 3-1 in passing later on after what you quoted, though I should have brought them up elsewhere. As for the bexping, she should be able to pull off 25 AS for level 19, since speed is now 2nd best growth after str and skl cap and .2 over 4th best. That probably lets her have 25 AS for 3-8, which is nice. Not sure how much the hp/res matter, though.

Her problem is still the support needed for the durability increase, since Oscar only likes the shared move and Titania can't go as far without letting Oscar start up enemy phase "offense".

3-3 is cramped.

That's what makes Canto good. Titania can attack, then move out of the way.

Pass. Shinon. Soren even, since he can OHKO a fair number of enemies after a single GM attacks it. Soren 2RKOs lots, so anything that 2RKOs and hits first should work. If you forge light in part 1 and send it to Rhys, I think even he can pull it off on some enemies. Canto's an advantage, and I admit that, but it's not exactly game-breaking.

3-5 is cramped.

3-5 is only cramped at the start, but once you get down it's pretty much open space.

It may not be cramped in terms of stuff in the way, but there are still plenty of enemies. Unless you want to send her out there with Oscar, there isn't much difference between Titania's move and Mia's move if you tie them to Ike as a supporter. Without an earth support, Titania's durability for that is questionable, and even with a support her durability is inferior to Mia's, even considering both at B Ike. So basically I'm saying Mia can get access to enemies in the south too. It helps that there are so many paladins down there, since they have 9 move and can generally reach Mia anyway.

[Blademaster!]

Beleive it or not, Leo's tier postion already reflects how silly powerful he can be in 3-6. Besides Beastfoe, he can also combine his PRF bow with Wrath and get some scary high kill percentages (which is good for him because it lets someone else use BEstfoe at the same time).

Wow. That seems kinda odd. I mean, given how high the BK is given that he is really only available for two chapters (would chp 9 really count? I mean, both the BK and Michiah should be lvl 20 by then, and that chapter was made for people to just have fun watching the BK rape people) you'd think Leonardo would be higher given that he helps out a lot on 3-6 and 3-13 should he have beastfoe, and can be pretty useful with the Taksh/his PRF weapon in 3-12.

Also, I brought up the Calill/Largo data transfer in the site error report section, and right now, there is one response saying that it works. He doesn't have a picture/video though, but neither did anyone who said it didn't work.

[Narga_Rocks]

Beleive it or not, Leo's tier postion already reflects how silly powerful he can be in 3-6. Besides Beastfoe, he can also combine his PRF bow with Wrath and get some scary high kill percentages (which is good for him because it lets someone else use BEstfoe at the same time).

Wow. That seems kinda odd. I mean, given how high the BK is given that he is really only available for two chapters (would chp 9 really count? I mean, both the BK and Michiah should be lvl 20 by then, and that chapter was made for people to just have fun watching the BK rape people) you'd think Leonardo would be higher given that he helps out a lot on 3-6 and 3-13 should he have beastfoe, and can be pretty useful with the Taksh/his PRF weapon in 3-12.

Why? He can kill 10 things in 10 turns. And besides, I think you missed the two snickers example here: With beastfoe, he's doing nothing that Nolan can't do with it. And while you might want Nolan tanking, you could just as easily use others for the tanking (though they are mostly 2RKOd). Or if you don't like that: Jill. She brings the fight to them. I think Brave Axe will pretty much kill anything in two hits. The hit rate isn't perfect, but it's decent. Then she goes back and hides. While it's slightly less reliable, it's also more flexible then just 2 range. Point is, he's not getting a huge economic profit out of beastfoe. Wrath he is, but then that makes ~8 kills in 10 turns since he'll have a 90% proc so he'll usually miss one, and he spends a turn getting to wrath range. The point here is that Leo is unlikely to reduce the turncount by any more than 1. The BK can do more than just that. He won't reduce the turncount of 3-6 either, but his existence in 3-6 can be used to change tactics in other chapters. And 1-9 exists. The fact that BK can't die and OHKOs almost everything and ORKOs the boss (only thing not OHKOd) should not mean he gets no utility out of it. Basically, Leo is just "good" in that chapter. Also, taksh is an unnecessary waste of money that prevents the purchase of better things. And if the enemies in 3-12 have <= 16 AS he'll probably double and do much more damage with Lugh anyway. But he'll still be player phase only and in need of protection. And 3-13 is all about the ballistas. Killing cats and tigers is not something to care about. Unless you plan on taking down Ike, the only reason to kill stuff is to train the DB so they can be used in part 4. Otherwise, he's killing probably 2 out of 3 hawks or something, and that's good and all, but it's not BK good.

And beastfoe is not something he's entitled to. Nobody else can use wrath as well as Leo, lots can use beastfoe to similar effect. Leo is entitled to wrath if he wants it, but beastfoe carries a much heftier opportunity cost than wrath. If you plan it right, even Volug can use beastfoe without causing suicide, and then he'd be putting it to use on far more enemies, possibly making him a better user than Leo.

Also, I brought up the Calill/Largo data transfer in the site error report section, and right now, there is one response saying that it works. He doesn't have a picture/video though, but neither did anyone who said it didn't work.

How do you have a picture of it not working? Someone could just say that you didn't transfer at all, or that Largo wasn't level 20, or something. Burden of proof is on the "it working" angle.

[Blademaster!]

Beleive it or not, Leo's tier postion already reflects how silly powerful he can be in 3-6. Besides Beastfoe, he can also combine his PRF bow with Wrath and get some scary high kill percentages (which is good for him because it lets someone else use BEstfoe at the same time).

Wow. That seems kinda odd. I mean, given how high the BK is given that he is really only available for two chapters (would chp 9 really count? I mean, both the BK and Michiah should be lvl 20 by then, and that chapter was made for people to just have fun watching the BK rape people) you'd think Leonardo would be higher given that he helps out a lot on 3-6 and 3-13 should he have beastfoe, and can be pretty useful with the Taksh/his PRF weapon in 3-12.

Or if you don't like that: Jill. She brings the fight to them. I think Brave Axe will pretty much kill anything in two hits. The hit rate isn't perfect, but it's decent. Then she goes back and hides. While it's slightly less reliable, it's also more flexible then just 2 range. Point is, he's not getting a huge economic profit out of beastfoe.

Also, I brought up the Calill/Largo data transfer in the site error report section, and right now, there is one response saying that it works. He doesn't have a picture/video though, but neither did anyone who said it didn't work.

How do you have a picture of it not working? Someone could just say that you didn't transfer at all, or that Largo wasn't level 20, or something. Burden of proof is on the "it working" angle.

Define decent hit. Personally, I don't think Jill is all that great only because she can't hit, but I think a lot of high tier characters in this game are overrated (Nolan, Jill, Nephenee, Mia[though Mia is actually pretty good in my opinion]). I imagine she has around 66% hit on average, 80% at best with the brave axe.

Also, wouldn't bringing the fight to them involve you attacking the enemy? Also, crossbows have 1-2 range and you probably wouldn't want to be leaving Leonardo open to being attacked by anything..... ever. And could you please define economic profit?

And about the showing a picture of it not working, you may not be able to show a picture, but you could make a very long and extensive video.

[Narga_Rocks]

Define decent hit. Personally, I don't think Jill is all that great only because she can't hit, but I think a lot of high tier characters in this game are overrated (Nolan, Jill, Nephenee, Mia[though Mia is actually pretty good in my opinion]). I imagine she has around 66% hit on average, 80% at best with the brave axe.

Aside from Brave Axe/Hand Axe usage, Aran/Leo/Ed/Nolan/Ilyana/Jill's hit issues in part 1 can largely be solved by forges. It changes 65%s into 85%s or more (iron weapons have more base hit than steel, and you can add 25, so 30 at the most) and 85 listed is 95.65% true.

Anyway, Jill with a brave axe specifically at 20/1 has:

15.7 skill, 17.6 luck.

I'll round skill up and luck down. 16 x 2 + 18 = 50, so 130 hit with a brave axe.

Cats get up to 52, but lots of tigers are as low as 39, some are 38.

So 78 hit on cats, or 90.54% true, or 81.974916% chance of hitting twice. Now, obviously this can get worse with unfavourable bio. In fact, she can drop to 58 listed when it's really bad. At that point, though, I say forge. Even an iron axe forge should have 13 x 3 = 39 mt. She'll OHKO a cat, so they aren't an issue. Well, 43 hp and 14 def isn't an issue if she has 18 str, which she doesn't have at 20/2 unless she got the one and only drop the DB can have, so a steel axe forge would be a better idea. 15 str can KO the 43hp/16def cats as long as the forge has at least 15 mt, so that's fine. Anything that was weakened on enemy phase can be KOd by an iron forge. Back to the tigers, all but two of them have 39 avo or less, so 91 listed, and 71 at worst vs. best bios. 83.47% true, or 69.672409% of hitting twice. Not what I'd call reliable, of course, but how often is she on worst and the enemy is on best?

And Neph is so high since she doubles and the units below her that are in the GMs part 3 don't, or are Ranulf and have cat gauge. Durability isn't so bad she can't make use of it, hence she gets to be where she is. Which GM would you suggest goes above her? Jill I can somewhat understand, though I still don't see why Jill wouldn't be > Oscar. Nolan could possibly stand to go down, but I think his use in early part 1 + chance of getting to 3HKOd from enemies fairly early in part 3 + 27 speed cap and reaching it by 20/17 causing the possibility of crowning and having doubling speed for a fair amount of part 4 is putting him there.

Also, wouldn't bringing the fight to them involve you attacking the enemy? Also, crossbows have 1-2 range and you probably wouldn't want to be leaving Leonardo open to being attacked by anything..... ever.

I'm mostly talking about the idea that you stick your main group to guard and block and kill stuff that way, and Jill can run off and KO untransformed stuff to speed it up or attack transformed stuff or whatever. It can help make it safer to clear. I don't mean sending your team out there and trying to go 10 to 15 panels deep into enemy lines from where the swamp starts. That's fun in NM, but I don't see a point in HM, especially since more of the enemy is perfectly willing to charge in there on HM than on NM, so there isn't even much point.

And could you please define economic profit?

Economic profit = Total Revenue - opportunity cost.

A movie that gets $100 million at the box office got $100 million. Doesn't matter if it cost $40 million to make or $40. The Fire Emblem application is you give a unit an item/skill/weapon and whatever they do with it is their total revenue, or I sometimes say normal profit, even though maybe I shouldn't.

Opportunity cost is the value of the next best alternative foregone as the result of making a decision. So in the case of fire emblem if you only have one of a specific item, the opportunity cost of giving it to unit A is the value (or we sometimes say utility) that we'd get from giving it to the next best candidate.

So economic profit is then what unit A getting the item brings to the team - what the next best option gives us.

Basically, if I offer you a snickers, and you value it at $1, then your economic profit is $1, since I didn't give you any other options there is no opportunity cost. Well, the opportunity cost is the value you get from nothing, but I'm assuming that's $0.

If I offer you a snickers or m&ms, and you value m&ms at $0.40, then if you choose the snickers your economic profit is $0.60.

Say I offer you either one snickers bar or another one, but I won't give you both. Your economic profit is $0 if you take a snickers bar, because to take one you give up the other, so the opportunity cost is $1, the same as the utility you'd get from the snickers bar you chose. Since $1 - $1 = $0, your economic profit is $0.

To be perfectly honest, I think this page combined with this page successfully give enough details in the first few lines of each page to grasp the basic concept, and the way in which you can apply it to resource distribution in FE should follow pretty easily.

Now, Leo's economic profit from beastfoe is not $0 here, because to stick beastfoe on Nolan and use him to crossbow things you give up the other things he can do, and to give beastfoe to Leo you give up on the other things he can do. So the utility from giving beastfoe to Leo may or may not be canceled completely.

I should, however, point out that you could give Nolan a Bronze Axe and bestfoe and a Bowgun. Level 20/1 Nolan has, say, 18 str. A bronze axe doing effective damage is 5x3=15. So he has 33 mt with the bronze axe. Considering we are only letting him get attacked by 1 enemy, he can OHKO on player phase with his bowgun then follow it up (after getting someone to trade items) with the bronze axe attacking something safely on enemy phase, since he won't crit and 33 mt can't OHKO anything here, so the fact he can do 19 damage to most cats and 17 damage to the 16 def ones is more than Leo does on enemy phase when he is hiding. Also, Tigers take 13 to 15 damage, depending on whether it's a 20 def tiger or an 18 def tiger. So he's still pretty helpful. Frankly, I'd value this use of beastfoe as higher than Leo's, so Leo could arguably have negative economic profit from wielding beastfoe.

(Edit: Also, since I mentioned earlier that the value is based on what they bring to the team vs. what the other unit brings to the team, and not just what they do once they get it, this also means that Nolan goes from pretty useful with just Tarvos to OHKOing on player phase, whereas Leo without wrath or beastfoe goes from still having crit and doubling tigers and over 30 mt, but just player phase use, to guaranteed OHKO of anything he attacks with a bowgun. So Leo getting beastfoe is probably a bigger change to team dynamics than Nolan getting it, so Leo's utility would be >0, except for the whole bronze axe and trading thing allowing Nolan to have his cake and eat it too, or whatever you want to say. In fact, since enemies have such low luck, Nolan with a 15mt axe that will never crit is arguably more useful than Nolan with an 18mt axe that actually increases his chance of suiciding.)

I don't really consider there to be a meaningful alternative to wrath in 3-6, since the next best option is Micaiah, and in comparison it's not a very good one.

And about the showing a picture of it not working, you may not be able to show a picture, but you could make a very long and extensive video.

Extremely long, and can't fit on YouTube. First show beating PoR with Largo at level 20 with some bonus. Then after going through the really long credits, save, set up the transfer, start playing RD. Get all the way to 2-E, and show that she didn't get the bonus. Yeah, I'm thinking the other way is better: Show Calill getting something.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Narga_Rocks