OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

...

Anti-Snacky-

Wtf is this?

1. Base STR is so bad she's actually worried about it. IT'S LOWER THAN REYSON'S.

Oh my God, less Str than the best character in the game. I'm terrified.

2. Base 10 DEF, 28 HP, 30% DEF and SPD growths, and a meager SPD base mean she'll get 1HKO'd if sneezed on.

Aside from the fact that Spd has nothing to do with getting 1HKOd and her Spd growth is actually 35%, this is stuff we already know. Nobody suggests she should be tanking.

3. You can baby her like a BITCH to make her SLIGHTLY useful, or you can just use Micaiah or even freakin BASTIAN.

Now POINT me to where ANYONE said she should be ABOVE Micaiah or even freakin BASTIAN.

Also, she needs no babying to make potshots.

4. She can't even heal. 50% of the appeal of most magic users in this game is Stave utility. AND SHE CAN'T EVEN DO THAT RIGHT. For those curious, the other 50% is Thani.

Units don't get penalized for lacking an ability. It makes no sense.

5. Her affinity is pretty much TERRIBLE if you want to support her with Sigrun.

I don't see what this has to do with anything.

Even Water bonuses suck too.

lolroflwtfisthisshit?

1. HAI GAIZ IM MS "Has a lower base SPD than a unit 12 levels below me" Sigrun!

A lot of people have a lower Spd base than Mia. In fact, here's the list of people with higher base Spd than Mia: Vika, Nailah, Nealuchi, Ranulf, Janaff, Ulki, Tibarn, Naesala, Stefan, Volke, Caineghis, Giffca, Renning, Lehran.

14 units, out of this game's 70ish.

4 Laguz royals + Giffca.

3 3rd tier Beorc, aka endgame fillers.

More (5) laguz, a few which suck because of lolStr and availability.

Lehran, Mr. I only exist for one map.

Everyone else needs to drop.

Oh, but wait, maybe you were referring to Heather?

Heather for Bottom because she has a lower base Str than a unit 6 levels below her pl0x.

Point taken.

2. I also have the same base STR as Sothe. When he was level one.

3. I also have a lower base DEF than a unit 17 levels below me!

Aside from the fact that you aren't really making any points, this stuff is fairly irrelevant.

Hi, I'm Ike, and I have the same Spd growth as slow people like Leonardo, Micaiah, Aran, Geoffrey, Soren, Rhys, and lolomgSnacky. Mid tier pl0x.

4. lolololol 10% DEF growth, 25% SPD growth, and despite a 320% growth total, I STILL SUCK.

aka Sigrun should drop because she sucks.

I'm not going to euphemise here. I hope you were being sarcastic (I suck at detecting internet sarcasm) because these arguments suck even more than Sanaki herself.

[Candlejack]

I need to work on internet sarcasm, huh.

I was trying to imitate smash_fanatic to be honest.

[tehnikhil]

Wait, so does Sedgar disagree with me or was he just trying to joke around with making a Smash impression? If he was trying to disagree with me, than really, only Sigrun's bases matter. We aren't planning on training her, but just taking away the enemy hp that Sanaki would leave behind after doing about 30ish damage to an enemy.

She has Paragon for 2-3 and 3-9 so you'll probably try to give her kills whenever possible if it doesn't hurt efficiency, which will help her level fast. I like to do the ParaBlossom combo

The thing is that she is competing with 4 or 5 other people for that paragon, and she is the second worst canidate for it (1st being the ditching Geoffery)

[charmander6000]

Competition for Paragon in 3-9 is low since it is unlikely that you would use more than two characters after this chapter anyways.

[Florete]

The thing is that she is competing with 4 or 5 other people for that paragon, and she is the second worst canidate for it (1st being the ditching Geoffery)

Competition for Paragon in 3-9 is low since it is unlikely that you would use more than two characters after this chapter anyways.

Precisely. We're discussing Astrid, thus we're using her. It's unlikely to be using more than one other CRK (Some might say it's unlikely to be using more than one altogether), so Paragon competition is practically zero if you aren't Geoffrey. Paragon in 3-11 is another story, but that's an opportunity cost she might need to pay.

[Zkirsche]

My Astrid (T) vs Sanaki post from FE genesis:

Well, that would mean we have to decide her place against Astrid's (T). Personally, I can see the rise. The transfer means she can double all of 8 enemies in 2-3, and ORKO 1 of them. The rest of those she 2RKO's. She 2-4RKO's the rest. This is on a map where you shouldn't be killing things, however, so let's forgive her.

Giving her a level, we find her not doubling anything in 2-E, and what's worse, she's faced with multiple generals where she joins the map who she deals single digit damage to. Yay?

etcetera etcetera.

Giving her 8 levels, let's comapre her to Sanaki when they meet:

xx/10 Astrid with a forged silver bow, 'A' Marcia: 37.4 HP, 38.2 Atk, 20 AS, 71 avo +authority, 12.4 Def, 18 Res

xx/xx/1 Sanaki with Cymbeline: 28 HP, 46 Atk, 20 AS, 72 Avo, 10 Def, 28 Res

Astrid's durability is so fail she can't properly use her mobility to her advantage. And despite her losses in both HP and Def, Sanaki actually has a durability lead over Astrid. This is because Astrid attracts enemies like flies because she can't counter attack. Sanaki isn't like this.

Then, Sanaki does better chip damage. Astrid 3RKO's things, whereas Sanaki 2RKO's them. Sanaki also has Flare for Durability and for extra offence as with it she OHKO's most things on the map.

Sanaki Wins 4-P/1/2

Then it's desert time and Sanaki can use Blizzard/Purge/Meteor to hurt enemies from afar. Even after losing those weapons, she can run to the enemies and go one-on-one using Cymbeline, since she shouldn't die in one round. Astrid faces Desert/Swamp in 4-3/5 respectively, and struggles in 4-4 thanks to the ledges. Not to mention the high enemy density makes her durability stand out.

Sanaki wins 4-E-3/4/5

Then, Sanaki can Bolting Degh for bonus damage in 4-E-3 and double spirits with Bolting using Nasir + Ena in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5. Astrid can use these guys too, but that would slow down her progress and waste most of her movement. Then, 4-E-2 is a 1-2 turn chapter and shouldn't weigh much. Astrid wins 4-E-1, though. Remember that Sanaki doesn't take a unit slot however.

So...

- Astrid's performance pre-part 4 is nothing more than average.

- Sanaki is overall superier in 4-P/1/2.

- Sanaki is overall superier in 4-3/4/5

- Sanaki is better overall in 4-E.

Sanaki > Astrid (T).

[Florete]

I'm thinking Sanaki is being pretty underappreciated as it is (I blame samsh). I think she could at least go above Lehran, even if only because she's around much longer. Maybe Renning as well, since for him to exist incurs a cost while Sanaki is always free. Probably not past Kurthnaga or Bastian, though.

[tehnikhil]

Although, the thing is that with the logic with Renning (oppurtunity cost), wouldn't she go above Stefan too? That was at least part of the logic Smash told me about his tier list. I kinda agree with him on that though...

[-Cynthia-]

Stefan is better than Renning, so Stefan using up a slot isn't as big of a deal.

[tehnikhil]

I think I actually just figured it out now :o.

Use of characters=Usefulness-Oppurtunity cost.

At least, that would be it simplified.

[Candlejack]

The thing about Renning is that his Defensive game is pretty good. Base 27 DEF, 23 RES, and 29 SPD. He also gets a WTF 70% DEF growth and a decent 60% STR growth.

Not saying you could use him seriously, but he's an underrated filler. He'll actually come very very close to reaching all of his caps save lolLCK. Top that off with Four authority stars, innate Sol, rapetastic Earth affinity, and an A in axes.

You can't certainly say he's useless. At least he has bases suitable for his level. His only real flaws is that his offense is below average and he's wtfoutclassed by Royals.

then again, EVERYONE is. Except Haar, Reyson, and Ike.

[Narga_Rocks]

The thing about Renning is that his Defensive game is pretty good. Base 27 DEF, 23 RES, and 29 SPD. He also gets a WTF 70% DEF growth and a decent 60% STR growth.

Not saying you could use him seriously, but he's an underrated filler. He'll actually come very very close to reaching all of his caps save lolLCK. Top that off with Four authority stars, innate Sol, rapetastic Earth affinity, and an A in axes.

You can't certainly say he's useless. At least he has bases suitable for his level. His only real flaws is that his offense is below average and he's wtfoutclassed by Royals.

then again, EVERYONE is. Except Haar, Reyson, and Ike.

Um... Level Elincia like you are serious. Tell me her offence is outclassed. I don't me by as much as you said. I mean at all.

Also, pretty much anybody with a mastery + doubling + adept + critforge is pulling >80% proc on generals, and any sword users can ORKO white dragons with wyrmslayer and 3HKO reds with the same (again, mastery + doubling + adept. Only thing missing there is extra crit. Easily >70%.) They might be getting beaten, but if they are it isn't by all that much. Certainly not as much as Renning.

Also, hammers: Renning doubles 8 out of 30 initial generals in 4-E-1. 31 doubles them all. 30 doubles most of them. Strap on a Hammer and possibly light/fire/wind support and they should have similar offence v. Generals to what the lions pull (Lions are more accurate, barring a Heaven support).

Actually, a fair number of units can actually beat Ike's offence against Generals (if he doesn't get a hammer. I admit there are only 2 of them and thus not all your axe users can use it) thanks to masteries that activate more often or innate crit. And against Dragons he is again beaten by anyone that can use wyrmslayers with better crit or better % mastery.

Of course, the royals typically win durability, but a lot of your units should be able to take enough punishment to be equally useful each turn. They just need healing and the royals probably don't.

Anyway, Renning is pretty decent filler because his durability isn't paper and he has access to hammers and wyrmslayers and is a reasonably fast Elincia support. Depending on the other units fielded she may be willing to take pity on him. Then his brave usage is rather accurate in 4-E-5. And his accuracy with hammers in 4-E-1 will be similar to most other units, thanks to his rather high skill/lck (relatively speaking). So at least against those 8 axe generals he should double them. I just wish the stars actually did anything. Also Earth won't possibly hit A until 4-E-4, and that's only likely to happen in a reasonable amount of turns with Elincia (00 + healing = lightning speed support). And by then enemies get accurate enough it doesn't help all that much. Also Elincia is Heaven so in 4-E-3 against dragons it is only +15 avo for each.

[Candlejack]

Renning only needs one level on SPD or a Speedwing to significantly contribute to the team as a whole. I'll go out on a limb and say only Titania, Oscar, and maybe Kieran are better than him by class.

Elincia is incredibly strong. At level 18. I've never seen a flier before who only caps SPD at 20.

And royals are just broken. Tibarn, Giffca, and Caineghis come to mind.

Also, I've looked at Oliver's stats; Saint caps are crap, granted, but he comes very very close to those caps. DEF is off by 1 point on average, as is MAG, and he reaches HP by four levels. He caps STR too, so he suffers no AS loss from anything ever. So giving him Nosferatu helps his defense. And I'm unsure of this, but he can double some enemies in 4E-1 and 4E-3.

And Volke >>>>>>>>>> Sothe.

[Narga_Rocks]

Renning only needs one level on SPD or a Speedwing to significantly contribute to the team as a whole. I'll go out on a limb and say only Titania, Oscar, and maybe Kieran are better than him by class.

Elincia is incredibly strong. At level 18. I've never seen a flier before who only caps SPD at 20.

And royals are just broken. Tibarn, Giffca, and Caineghis come to mind.

Also, I've looked at Oliver's stats; Saint caps are crap, granted, but he comes very very close to those caps. DEF is off by 1 point on average, as is MAG, and he reaches HP by four levels. He caps STR too, so he suffers no AS loss from anything ever. So giving him Nosferatu helps his defense. And I'm unsure of this, but he can double some enemies in 4E-1 and 4E-3.

And Volke >>>>>>>>>> Sothe.

Well, I'd have to say Kieran is likely hovering around 27 speed (20/10 speed, with his availability he is lucky to get there). Mak actually has a better chance of being better than Renning at this point. 20/5 is already 30 speed. Sure it is only ~27 str, but that doesn't really matter when you have hammers and wyrmslayers. Renning is probably more accurate than him, though, depending on who Mak supports.

Oh, and Oliver starts at 20 AS with a 45% speed growth. At max level he hits 25.4, so most of the time either 25 or 26. At max level he is most likely doubled by warriors. Sadly Ollie is doubling precisely nothing.

And Renning doesn't get a wing. You'd have to hold it for a while. From 3-9 to 4-E. I suppose you can argue it is only 4 chapters lost and 3-E shouldn't count, but I'd disagree. I wish he had a 60% spd growth. Really I do. But that 40% means it takes two levels for a 64% chance, so I'd say he needs 2 levels before he hits 30. However, maybe he gets lucky after KOing a few axe generals and on his first level procs speed. Some of the time he's going to be good enough.

[Candlejack]

Really, I don't know why Renning is considered a terrible filler character. I mean, there's Oliver, Pelleas, Sanaki, and other guys that are worse filler.

[Progenitus]

Oliver is good for a backup healer. There are better choices for staff users (or you just put Micaiah on double duty), but then again, there are better choices for fighters over Renning.

Pelleas and Sanaki are just terribad though (Pelleas needs a master crown just to be worse than Oliver at healing. Sanaki is like Astrid when it comes to redeeming her stats, i.e. lolimpossible), Renning > them pretty easily.

[Florete]

Renning > Sanaki I think I'll leave. Oliver > Sanaki I think I'll change. No one seems to be disagreeing anyway.

[Narga_Rocks]

Renning > Sanaki I think I'll leave. Oliver > Sanaki I think I'll change. No one seems to be disagreeing anyway.

Aside from you know who.

Thing is, Sanaki is an example of how the negative utility idea (and more specifically, opportunity cost for deployment) is flawed. Sanaki is instant mid tier for the fact that she is never a negative (at least, since Lehran is somehow mid tier on Smash's list). If she hides in a corner she can be used all the time until 4-E-4 and even then choosing her just means in 4-E-4 when you choose a unit to drop for Nasir you don't choose Sanaki. Kurth or Sothe can be dropped. No big deal. In 4-E-5 you have to drop Kurth instead of Sanaki if you want Gareth (assuming Sothe for Nasir). That is, assuming you force deployment and assess opportunity cost of deployment for her in 4-E-4 and 5.

So she is instantly above Oliver, Renning, and a bunch of other units. Then she can actually take potshots rather freely in 4-3. In 4-E-1 you have so many units cramped in a smallish area that she can attack something that has 1 range and then your other units swarm up because you need to rout, and she is safe and she helped KO a general since not many of your units are 100% anyway. She can even bomb some dragons with long range magic in 4-E-3, or just finish some reds off with arcthunder or a thunder forge or even Cymbeline. It's not like any of your units are 100% on these guys, aside from whichever unit holds dragonfoe (and possibly a mage with a strong thunder type weapon). With her skill + lck it isn't like she could possibly miss anyway. Easily > Lehran, too.

For a more serious look, since we don't hold to the true form of negative utility (neither does smash, but that's just an inconsistent thing in his case), I'm not sure of Sanaki v. Renning. She is free to deploy. That should count for something. And she does basically allow for OHKOs or ORKOs by other units that wouldn't otherwise. Especially in places like 4-3 where units like Haar and Skrimir are unlikely to be doubling. Jill if you raise her may even be hovering around 28 speed or so at this point. Renning just does what anybody else does in his slot, so if not him you'd use someone else. Sanaki is still taking her potshots and either saving other units from wasting their turn killing something Sanaki can KO (ie: they can do something more elsewhere) or saving a unit that would ORKO from taking a counter. As annoying as it is to give a unit credit for being free, it does mean something for efficiency. Actually, depending on the value placed on Night Tide and being a wall in 4-E-3, she could even go above Kurth since she likely hits harder and is around longer and they are both not exactly durable. Kurth is of course more durable, but not by all that much. I'd have to say Bastian is her upper limit, though. She's not > Bastian. I think we have to give some credit for being free, but not that much.

[charmander6000]

Why not Bastian? His 4-5 isn't that great and I would take Renning over Bastian for endgame (or it will at least be close).

[Interceptor]

Oliver > Sanaki I think I'll change. No one seems to be disagreeing anyway.

Wow. I'll take "Kicking People In the Teeth", for $1000, Alex.

[Narga_Rocks]

Why not Bastian? His 4-5 isn't that great and I would take Renning over Bastian for endgame (or it will at least be close).

What's the difference between Sanaki and Bastian?

Rexcalibur = Cymbeline in

mt

crit

is more accurate (by 13, actually), wt is irrelevant.

I doubt in 3 maps he'll use Rexcalibur 15 times, and they both don't need to use their most powerful weapon all the time. He starts with 2 more magic, and she will overtake him, but not immediately. She has a little more time to build up a support, and light is only slightly better than wind. Especially when she takes a while to hit A level support anyway. He starts with more skill and less luck so when they use their best weapons he is more accurate (though it isn't like she was missing much with Cymbeline anyway). Basically, she gets 4-P and 4-3, he gets 4-5 (hello laguz), they have similar offensive prowess (he has a better Flare proc%, though) and both are soon doubled without aggressive leveling (in other words, serious use, not casual). With leveling, Bastian probably reaches 26 AS in time to not be doubled by Warriors in 4-E-2 and 27 AS in time for spirits (so will she, of course, so neither is doubled except by swordmasters). He is more durable (except against things with high crit values) and on top of all that he has staves. All she's got is free deployment on him. I think some credit should be given to free deployment, but I suggest not that much credit. Free Deployment and one extra chapter vs. Staves and much better durability (except against various things with high crit) and eventually Bastian has slightly worse offence. Plus 4-5 is basically free for him anyway so it is just 4-E where that is an advantage (and only until 4-E-4. Well, I guess she's just competing with Kurth and Sothe there, so it is still an advanatage). Bastian's accelerated supports don't help him much, though. Then again, neither do Sanaki's, unless you break Micaiah's support.

[Florete]

Aside from you know who.

Wow. I'll take "Kicking People In the Teeth", for $1000, Alex.

Eh what? Come on you two, I'm not that bad. I don't know if smash actually disagrees with Sanaki > Oliver but his post did not say so. He only said Renning > her (and Pelleas).

[Interceptor]

Alright, fair enough. You've destroyed my mental image of him picking his teeth up off the ground.

But, he argued rather vociferously in the past that Sanaki should be Bottom tier. I made a fairly comprehensive argument to move her out of it (Narga also one-upped me and did a better one), and his response was just to claim that my post was so full of crap that he couldn't be arsed to respond to it.

So I'm definitely operating under the assumption that he hasn't changed his opinion.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Interceptor

[Narga_Rocks]

Oliver is good for a backup healer. There are better choices for staff users (or you just put Micaiah on double duty), but then again, there are better choices for fighters over Renning.

Pelleas and Sanaki are just terribad though (Pelleas needs a master crown just to be worse than Oliver at healing. Sanaki is like Astrid when it comes to redeeming her stats, i.e. lolimpossible), Renning > them pretty easily.

I think Interceptor and I thought it was implied. I admit he didn't come out and say O > S explicitly, but it seems like he said Oliver has some redeemable qualities and Sanaki doesn't. That's absurd, of course, but that seems to be what he is suggesting. Which would imply that Oliver > Sanaki since having redeemable qualities > not having redeemable qualities.

(and like Interceptor said, past precedent)

(And Astrid would be much better if she had Sanaki-level potshots. 9 move, canto, >50% damage per shot? (I guess for Generals Sanaki may or may not do >50% depending on her level, but a lot of the other units have low enough res that it is >50%.) If Astrid could do >50% damage to everything out there from the moment she is first deployable until the end of the game (minus bosses [not named Levail] and auras, of course) I'd probably try to push her up to lower mid. Sure, bad def, but who cares? Never miss, >50% damage? What's not to appreciate when she's around in chapters where plenty of units fail to 100% ORKO (2-E, 3-9, 3-11, 3-E, even beyond). So Sanaki's stats, the offensive ones anyway, are already better than Astrid gets for most of her existence.)

Edited November 9, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[nflchamp]

Well, smash will absolutely abhor the fact that I'm thinking of writing up a Sanaki > Lehran arguement.

Edit: Smash does think Oliver > Sanaki. (By quite a bit, too.)

'Kay, look at Narga's post for the link to the list.

Also, I've finally found a use for smash's tier list of GFAQs.

Edited November 9, 2009 by nflchamp